Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
edited November 2014
the vanilla test is mana cost * 2 + 1 = total stats, a vanilla 3 mana 3/3 sucks really bad and does not pass
farseer is good in spite of it being a 3/3; you run it for the class neutral healing. but the 3/3 stats are still bad
purifier's ability is kind of sketchy, it won't hit the most important target (undertaker), it pops their eggs, and it can sometimes hurt your own creatures
Vanilla test isn't +1. Vanilla test is just costx2 for total stats. Otherwise nearly every card in the game fails the vanilla test. I mean druid of the claw, which is statistically an amazing card fails the vanilla test even in taunt form if it was cost*2+1.
It might be an average card or a tech card for constructed (i.e. massive death rattle meta, put this card in), but it is a solid card in arena IMO.
A 2/3 for 3 is below average, hence those cards have the fun perks (harvest golem, for one).
The purifier is a great card. It'll kill lots of cheap aggro deathrattle cards, and if it forces your opponent to play an egg on turn 2? good, you have just slowed them down indirectly.
0
Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
Vanilla test isn't +1. Vanilla test is just costx2 for total stats. Otherwise nearly every card in the game fails the vanilla test. I mean druid of the claw, which is statistically an amazing card fails the vanilla test even in taunt form if it was cost*2+1.
It might be an average card or a tech card for constructed (i.e. massive death rattle meta, put this card in), but it is a solid card in arena IMO.
4 + 6 = 10
+ taunt = 11
it passes
i think you misunderstand what the vanilla test is meant to test
Vanilla test isn't +1. Vanilla test is just costx2 for total stats. Otherwise nearly every card in the game fails the vanilla test. I mean druid of the claw, which is statistically an amazing card fails the vanilla test even in taunt form if it was cost*2+1.
It might be an average card or a tech card for constructed (i.e. massive death rattle meta, put this card in), but it is a solid card in arena IMO.
4 + 6 = 10
+ taunt = 11
it passes
i think you misunderstand what the vanilla test is meant to test
Vanilla test is pure stats.
In addition, one rule that we’re going to be leaning on while breaking down cards is known as the Vanilla Test. The Vanilla Test aims to compare the Attack and Health of a minion to its mana cost and disregard all other text on it: the goal is to have a baseline for the card before considering any additional ups or downsides. We have implemented the Vanilla test in the mind set of, "what would I pay for just stats and no text":
•One mana: 1/2 or 2/1
- The Vanilla Test: A cool test that Magic players use. It states that "if this rules text was blank, how is this card?" Monk alluded to it in the second trends article with Shattered Sun Cleric, and this is the perfect example: a 3/3 for 3 is perfectly fine, and in the cases where the rules box is not blank? that is pure upside. This test also works in reverse: that Ancient Watcher is a 4/5 for 2 is too good, so we expect a downside.
Vanilla test applies to arena though. You have to remember that. A "perfectly fine" arena card is generally suboptimal in constructed.
KafkaAU on
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
+6
Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
that article is extremely outdated
also it's just a different way of phrasing what i was saying, that is to say
if a card's stats are lower than the expected stats for its cost (cost * 2 + 1, which has been stated by trump and other pro players many times), you expect upside, and vice versa
you can simplify this by adding/subtracting the upside/downside from the card's stats and evaluating it as a vanilla card, i.e. taunt = 1 mana
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
I always use the vanilla test from that article for arena. It's basically "would I play this on curve if I couldn't use the effect". If I wouldn't then the effect better be so great or relevant so often that it makes up for it.
For me it doesn't make sense to convert abilities like taunt to stats because they don't always have the same worth. I.e. If you have a fen creeper out and your opponent has a random 4/4 then the taunt on the 3/3/3 grizzly is making it worse, not better.
A vanilla creature is a creature with no text, just a body. There's only four of those in Hearthstone that aren't also either Beasts or Murlocs; Magma Rager, Chillwind Yeti, Boulderfist Ogre, War Golem. I wouldn't play any of the cards in that quote for just their bodies, because those cards would suck. I can get equivalent bodies with perks or stronger bodies for the same cost (with the exception of War Golem, which as we can see is overpriced for what you get).
Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
edited November 2014
okay i'm not going to argue about what trump's definition of the vanilla test is
but the test you're talking about is a pretty meaningless indicator of worth by modern standards for constructed, and i've seen him use the way i'm describing before so shrug
It was defined once for Arena and is a baseline. All you need is a baseline.
I haven't seen it defined anywhere else so there you go.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
0
Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
vanilla just means no text
the arena baseline is different from the constructed baseline because you can't choose your card pool, so the value of a card is relative to an average card of its cost, rather than an optimal card for its cost
also it's just a different way of phrasing what i was saying, that is to say
if a card's stats are lower than the expected stats for its cost (cost * 2 + 1, which has been stated by trump and other pro players many times), you expect upside, and vice versa
you can simplify this by adding/subtracting the upside/downside from the card's stats and evaluating it as a vanilla card, i.e. taunt = 1 mana
The article, as it pertains to arena drafting may be outdated. The Vanilla Test won't become outdated so easily. Keep in mind, that passing the Vanilla Test doesn't make a card good, it means it's at least "average". In constructed you would never play a card that is average, see War Golem. The Chillwind Yeti passes the Vanilla Test, but that only means its average. The question then is, "Does +1 health make it actually good?" and the answer is yes. For Scarlet Purifier... +1 power isn't as useful on a 3-drop as +1 health (currently) so just that means it's just slightly above average. If you can use the Battlecry to kill off multiple enemy minions then it actually is a good card, but its very situational, and in fact, sometimes counter-productive (activating eggs for your opponent), so it probably won't see much play until the meta shifts away from deathrattles that spawn minions more useful then the original.
It is possible that the meta will shift more towards 2-drop 2/3's (and away from Zoo), however, and that could make 4/3's a more viable option. If it doesn't just lose to 1- and 2-drop minions every time, it makes it a lot easier to trade it up for various 5-6 health minions.
Also, note that as the mana cost goes up, what actually represents an average card shifts. For 1-2 mana you DO want 2 * Cost + 1. For 3+ mana you want 2 * Cost. In fact, what Blizzard gives you for your mana shifts a bit as the cost goes up. For 1-2 mana, you get 2 * Cost + 1 stats and favorable text. For 3-6 mana you get 2 * Cost + 1 and no text. For 7+ mana you only get 2 * Cost and no text. That's because the more power concentrate into a single card, the more valuable it becomes. For example, Pyro originally 8 mana for 10 damage, worse then 2 fireballs for efficiency, but still too good so it was nerfed. And still not terrible at 10 mana.
Bomber arena update: Eh. Sitting at 3/2 right now. Mostly just been extremely lucky, but I do get some delightful moments like these:
What would you do?
And also
My last turn of this game was to play out 3 Bombers in succession; I was hoping that they would just go for the face (guy was at 2hp), but instead they cleared half the board. He conceded next turn.
The actual card list, if you're interested:
MVP has actually been a druid I played against who just destroyed me for several turns - I'm talking about someone playing a ramp druid in arena - and got me down to like >5 health, and then I proceeded to stall for like 6-7 turns or more, just top-decking stalling tactic after stalling tactic. He eventually conceded even though he obviously would have killed me in 1 or 2 turns, which was a very nice Thanksgiving gift.
I tried Baron Rivendare in a Priest deck that also ran Feugan/Stalagg. His statline is just so awful though.
The Thaddius Bros. are actually kinda decent, if not immediate impact.
Best use of Baron so far that I've seen is to drop him before you run that 3/4 warlock card into something and drop two Doomguards out of your hand for free.
In an effort to reverse my losing ways, I took the evil plunge and played some Zoo. Went 0-4. >.<
So I switched to Hunter, my favorite class, and went 0-2 against Zoo decks. In each fucking game, I got the opponent to 1 HP and had to face Lord Jaraxxus, only to get him to 1 HP as well.
FUCK!
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
Posts
farseer is good in spite of it being a 3/3; you run it for the class neutral healing. but the 3/3 stats are still bad
purifier's ability is kind of sketchy, it won't hit the most important target (undertaker), it pops their eggs, and it can sometimes hurt your own creatures
It might be an average card or a tech card for constructed (i.e. massive death rattle meta, put this card in), but it is a solid card in arena IMO.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
A 2/3 for 3 is below average, hence those cards have the fun perks (harvest golem, for one).
The purifier is a great card. It'll kill lots of cheap aggro deathrattle cards, and if it forces your opponent to play an egg on turn 2? good, you have just slowed them down indirectly.
+ taunt = 11
it passes
i think you misunderstand what the vanilla test is meant to test
I am in full "trust in Bomber" mode.
(Bomber better deliver because I got no Flamestrikes or Pyroblasts and only one Fireball)
Vanilla test is pure stats.
From: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/arena-strategy/457523-trumps-arena-tier-list-neutral-commons
Edit:
Specifically:
Vanilla test applies to arena though. You have to remember that. A "perfectly fine" arena card is generally suboptimal in constructed.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
also it's just a different way of phrasing what i was saying, that is to say
if a card's stats are lower than the expected stats for its cost (cost * 2 + 1, which has been stated by trump and other pro players many times), you expect upside, and vice versa
you can simplify this by adding/subtracting the upside/downside from the card's stats and evaluating it as a vanilla card, i.e. taunt = 1 mana
For me it doesn't make sense to convert abilities like taunt to stats because they don't always have the same worth. I.e. If you have a fen creeper out and your opponent has a random 4/4 then the taunt on the 3/3/3 grizzly is making it worse, not better.
because trump has evaluated creatures the way i'm talking about in constructed
and it's true that the rules are more relaxed for a creature's stats in arena, to the point where 3 for 3/3 is fine etc.
So 8 mana card should be 8/8 to pass the vanilla test.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
but the test you're talking about is a pretty meaningless indicator of worth by modern standards for constructed, and i've seen him use the way i'm describing before so shrug
maybe he could give it a different name
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
It was defined once for Arena and is a baseline. All you need is a baseline.
I haven't seen it defined anywhere else so there you go.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
the arena baseline is different from the constructed baseline because you can't choose your card pool, so the value of a card is relative to an average card of its cost, rather than an optimal card for its cost
The article, as it pertains to arena drafting may be outdated. The Vanilla Test won't become outdated so easily. Keep in mind, that passing the Vanilla Test doesn't make a card good, it means it's at least "average". In constructed you would never play a card that is average, see War Golem. The Chillwind Yeti passes the Vanilla Test, but that only means its average. The question then is, "Does +1 health make it actually good?" and the answer is yes. For Scarlet Purifier... +1 power isn't as useful on a 3-drop as +1 health (currently) so just that means it's just slightly above average. If you can use the Battlecry to kill off multiple enemy minions then it actually is a good card, but its very situational, and in fact, sometimes counter-productive (activating eggs for your opponent), so it probably won't see much play until the meta shifts away from deathrattles that spawn minions more useful then the original.
It is possible that the meta will shift more towards 2-drop 2/3's (and away from Zoo), however, and that could make 4/3's a more viable option. If it doesn't just lose to 1- and 2-drop minions every time, it makes it a lot easier to trade it up for various 5-6 health minions.
Also, note that as the mana cost goes up, what actually represents an average card shifts. For 1-2 mana you DO want 2 * Cost + 1. For 3+ mana you want 2 * Cost. In fact, what Blizzard gives you for your mana shifts a bit as the cost goes up. For 1-2 mana, you get 2 * Cost + 1 stats and favorable text. For 3-6 mana you get 2 * Cost + 1 and no text. For 7+ mana you only get 2 * Cost and no text. That's because the more power concentrate into a single card, the more valuable it becomes. For example, Pyro originally 8 mana for 10 damage, worse then 2 fireballs for efficiency, but still too good so it was nerfed. And still not terrible at 10 mana.
The actual card list, if you're interested:
MVP has actually been a druid I played against who just destroyed me for several turns - I'm talking about someone playing a ramp druid in arena - and got me down to like >5 health, and then I proceeded to stall for like 6-7 turns or more, just top-decking stalling tactic after stalling tactic. He eventually conceded even though he obviously would have killed me in 1 or 2 turns, which was a very nice Thanksgiving gift.
At least it'll be fun.
The Thaddius Bros. are actually kinda decent, if not immediate impact.
Best use of Baron so far that I've seen is to drop him before you run that 3/4 warlock card into something and drop two Doomguards out of your hand for free.
38thDoE on steam
Sigh.
So I switched to Hunter, my favorite class, and went 0-2 against Zoo decks. In each fucking game, I got the opponent to 1 HP and had to face Lord Jaraxxus, only to get him to 1 HP as well.
FUCK!
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
Because no one expects it.
...I'll get my coat.
I was already mad I missed it. damn.
*spits drink out all over computer*
Hunters OP confirmed
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
it's essentially an Auchenai that's cheaper but much easier to remove