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[FFXIV:ARR] Old thread from last year....

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Posts

  • TulabelleTulabelle Registered User regular
    Riokenn wrote: »
    Tulabelle wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    How hard would it be for someone to jump back into this and get caught up on gear/content if they have been out of the game since before the release of guild halls?

    I have a paladin wearing the lowest tier of relic armor. I have the lowest tier of her artifact weapons. I'm thinking about coming back to FF14, but I have been gone a really long time.

    One of the major driving forces behind me quitting was because back at the launch of the game, there were literally only two dungeons to grind for stones: Amdapor and Wanderer's Palace, and I got so burned out on running those ad-nauseum that it pushed me away from the game. Because of that, my character never saw anything past the original high level espers or whatever they are called. The height of my progress is Heroic Titan. (And the other content that earned me my relic weapon).

    You are probably much better off than me! I just picked this up last night (haven't played since the first week it came out) and got my Conjurer to level 10. I have no idea what I'm doing, but it's fun! I guess I can pick another class now? So many choices!

    As long as you are following the Main Scenario quests you are doing fine. You could start a new class if you'd like. Do you wanna become a whitemage? Gotta be a Lv.15 Arcanist to get White Mage at level 30 Conjurer.

    I am leaning towards one of the healers to start, probably White Mage. Arcanist will be my next class I level up. I've been looking at some of the crafting and gathering stuff just to see what it is like. Got to 7 in Botanist, but I will probably focus on Conjurer for a few levels now.

    Eventually I want to try Pugilist and Rogue, and the Machinist and Astrologist when they come out, but that will all be later. I need to get to know the game and some people in game before I get too crazy!

  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    Yeah, that is what this game is worst at. The imbalance in the duty finder. Rather than take steps to aliviate the imbalance, they just let dps jobs pile up in the system, punishing over half the player base for playing the job type they put the most of in the game.

    This problem exists in pretty much every MMO in which there is a tank/healer/dps paradigm. FF14 has taken more steps than most to provide incentives to correct for this.

    But there is no fixing it. You can't fix player preferences. People overwhelmingly prefer to DPS. All you can do is give tanks and healers a reason to bother helping lowbies and they have. That my average wait time is "only" 15 to 22 minutes on average as a DPS is an improvement over most MMOs I've played.

    Do some crafting or gathering while you wait. Or FATEs.

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  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    Not requiring players run dungeons to finish the main story quests would be the most logical answer.

    I dunno if XIV has any incentives for tanks or healers in the duty finder like WoW, but that would be another solution.

    I was speaking generally, as it's a problem that affects all types of dungeons.

  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Esh wrote: »
    Then the imbalance goes the other way. Specialized content takes away from the game as a whole.

    Are you honestly suggesting that doing that would introduce a DPS shortage? Because my initial reaction to this argument was to say you were concern trolling and to wish you a good day. On the off chance that you are being genuine with an argument this poorly constructed, I will say fine, put a switch on it so that it is only offered when the DPS queue exceeds 25% of the next highest queue category, like a pressure release valve. Which would come out to about 12.5 minutes.

    Last night I joined queue as a monk. When I joined queue it told me the average wait was 25 minutes. At minute 57 it changed the average wait time to 'over 30 minutes'. This is OBVIOUSLY not functioning in a way that is enjoyable to any DPS player, from the wait time itself to the presentation of the expected wait time to the player. At about 45 minutes I really needed to use the bathroom, but I dare not leave the damned computer because I have 40 seconds to get back to it when the queue pops or I start over at another goddess only knows how long queue.


    Yeah, that is what this game is worst at. The imbalance in the duty finder. Rather than take steps to aliviate the imbalance, they just let dps jobs pile up in the system, punishing over half the player base for playing the job type they put the most of in the game.

    Steps taken to alleviate DF queues:

    -Queues spread over multiple servers in a datacenter
    -Level Syncing allowing higher level jobs to play in lower level dungeons.
    -split DPS queue into Ranged and Melee
    -Implemented Duty Roulette to bring lvl 50 players back into the queue
    -Implemented role specific bonuses for less played roles in Duty Roulette
    -Added reasons beyond Duty finder to go back into older dungeons.
    -Adjusted how long it takes for a queue to become less strict about party composition (1 ranged 1 melee being the ideal)
    -Designed a later Raid to only require 3 Tanks
    -Allow you to queue with whatever team composition you like if you make your own full group
    -Added Tank only Mounts the requires Tanks to actually Tank content to acquire them

    Aside from implementing "DPS only" content that you have suggested before, or adjusting party size to include another DPs or two (both incredibly large undertakings with far reaching ramifications) they are pretty much doing as much as they feasibly can to address the queue. It's a problem that pretty much any MMO that uses the trinity system will run into and there is not an easy fix to the problem of players wanting to play a DPS class over a healing or tanking class.

    I know that you got to feel the problem more so than most because you leveled your classes all at once meaning you were spending a lot of time in DPS queues at the same level, but to say that they are not or have not taken steps to alleviate the imbalance and "just letting dps jobs pile up in the system" is demonstrably false. It is certainly frustrating at times to be sure, but it's pretty much the nature of the beast when it comes to the Trinity system.

    What will be interesting is when the Expansion hits, because we'll be getting a new Tank, Healing, and DPS class. Provided they don't jsut give it to us at lvl 50 (dear god I hope not) this means we'll have another Tank and Healer to help with queues, especially in the lower dungeons. This is particularly exciting for the lvl 15-30 bracket as Arcanist could not queue as a healer while leveling until you turned into a Scholar at lvl 30. With Astrologian being a pure healer with no base class that may help quite a bit in the lower dungeons in particular. That and how bad ass the dark Knight looks I think will go a long way towards helping.

    I really hope this fixes it, because waiting an hour to do cool stuff kills my desire to play. It really makes me want to log out and never log back in again.

    And yes, saying they did nothing was a heated statement that wasn't accurate. It is accurate to say as of yet they aren't doing nearly enough.

    We are the skeletons in our closets.
    We are the monsters under our beds.
  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    Esh wrote: »
    Then the imbalance goes the other way. Specialized content takes away from the game as a whole.

    Are you honestly suggesting that doing that would introduce a DPS shortage? Because my initial reaction to this argument was to say you were concern trolling and to wish you a good day. On the off chance that you are being genuine with an argument this poorly constructed, I will say fine, put a switch on it so that it is only offered when the DPS queue exceeds 25% of the next highest queue category, like a pressure release valve. Which would come out to about 12.5 minutes.

    Last night I joined queue as a monk. When I joined queue it told me the average wait was 25 minutes. At minute 57 it changed the average wait time to 'over 30 minutes'. This is OBVIOUSLY not functioning in a way that is enjoyable to any DPS player, from the wait time itself to the presentation of the expected wait time to the player. At about 45 minutes I really needed to use the bathroom, but I dare not leave the damned computer because I have 40 seconds to get back to it when the queue pops or I start over at another goddess only knows how long queue.


    Yeah, that is what this game is worst at. The imbalance in the duty finder. Rather than take steps to aliviate the imbalance, they just let dps jobs pile up in the system, punishing over half the player base for playing the job type they put the most of in the game.

    Steps taken to alleviate DF queues:

    -Queues spread over multiple servers in a datacenter
    -Level Syncing allowing higher level jobs to play in lower level dungeons.
    -split DPS queue into Ranged and Melee
    -Implemented Duty Roulette to bring lvl 50 players back into the queue
    -Implemented role specific bonuses for less played roles in Duty Roulette
    -Added reasons beyond Duty finder to go back into older dungeons.
    -Adjusted how long it takes for a queue to become less strict about party composition (1 ranged 1 melee being the ideal)
    -Designed a later Raid to only require 3 Tanks
    -Allow you to queue with whatever team composition you like if you make your own full group
    -Added Tank only Mounts the requires Tanks to actually Tank content to acquire them

    Aside from implementing "DPS only" content that you have suggested before, or adjusting party size to include another DPs or two (both incredibly large undertakings with far reaching ramifications) they are pretty much doing as much as they feasibly can to address the queue. It's a problem that pretty much any MMO that uses the trinity system will run into and there is not an easy fix to the problem of players wanting to play a DPS class over a healing or tanking class.

    I know that you got to feel the problem more so than most because you leveled your classes all at once meaning you were spending a lot of time in DPS queues at the same level, but to say that they are not or have not taken steps to alleviate the imbalance and "just letting dps jobs pile up in the system" is demonstrably false. It is certainly frustrating at times to be sure, but it's pretty much the nature of the beast when it comes to the Trinity system.

    What will be interesting is when the Expansion hits, because we'll be getting a new Tank, Healing, and DPS class. Provided they don't jsut give it to us at lvl 50 (dear god I hope not) this means we'll have another Tank and Healer to help with queues, especially in the lower dungeons. This is particularly exciting for the lvl 15-30 bracket as Arcanist could not queue as a healer while leveling until you turned into a Scholar at lvl 30. With Astrologian being a pure healer with no base class that may help quite a bit in the lower dungeons in particular. That and how bad ass the dark Knight looks I think will go a long way towards helping.

    I really hope this fixes it, because waiting an hour to do cool stuff kills my desire to play. It really makes me want to log out and never log back in again.

    And yes, saying they did nothing was a heated statement that wasn't accurate. It is accurate to say as of yet they aren't doing nearly enough.

    In your opinion perhaps, but from a realistic standpoint given the nature of the problem they are actually doing a pretty good job of implementing various things to help alleviate it. Could they do more? Of course, they can always do more, and I'm sure it's something they are trying on a regular basis to address, but it's a very complicated problem. In most other MMOs for lower level dungeons and such you are pretty much SoL if there isn't a Tank or a Healer also leveling up. With FFXIV at the very least you have the Daily Roulette and level sync system to pull high level Tanks and Healers into the lower level queues.

    At the upper end the queues for DPS aren't very bad at all, at lvl 50 on average it takes me 5-9 mins to get into a high level queue. At worst you're looking around 20 mins or so and the odd 40 min if it's particularly bad. The other nice thing about FFXIV is that you don't need an Alt character to play another class. So if you have a buddy with a lower level tank you can take advantage of that and it's very easy for them to switch if necessary.

    These are all fairly minor things but they do help to a degree in alleviating the problem on various levels.

    To use an Example, Myuze in our FC was looking to level his Warrior, so I took advantage of that and hopped on my lower level Pugilist to get a few dungeons in, Nermits jumped on his healer and we picked up the final DPS from the DF.

    In another MMO that would only work if I had created a completely different alt character ahead of time. Again, it's a minor thing but the ease of being able to swap jobs and such actually does help a bit because on a whim an FC mate or friend can hop on a tank or healer to help out a DPS trying to level. That's in addition to all the other things they have done.

    Ultimately the problem lies in the concept of the Holy Trinity of jobs, and the fact that players on average consider DPS the more "fun" type of job to play. Tank comes with a certain level of responsibility, as does Healer and as such are less popular than DPS. The fact that FFXIV uses a 4 player party system instead of the traditional 5 does contribute to this, but changing that would involve a large overhaul of balance.

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  • LaonarLaonar Registered User regular
    I really don't think there is a perfect fix. Either way some players will and are going to be unhappy. It sucks but when you have a large player base small/large changes always make someone.

  • ForceVoidForceVoid Registered User regular
    Aren't the bear and lion mounts tank incentives of a sort?

  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    Scooter wrote: »
    Axen wrote: »
    The SHE-HULKS wish everyone a very joyous Starlight Festival!

    2y9XT0w.jpg

    I've been getting random invites to a She-Hulks linkshell thing. Is that some sort of local organization?

    For that matter, are there any PA-related linkshells in use, since I'm on the Sarg server but not in the PA FC

    There used to be but since they were used so infrequently I think a lot of people abandoned them.

    Shehulk SMASH is seriously the best exclusive club in this game. And it's easily my most active LS

    I might have joined but I basically automatically ignore any random invites from people I don't know to things I haven't heard of.

    Maybe if I get another I'll give it a shot

  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    edited December 2014
    Some other things that you can do to ease the pain as it were.

    1) Select ALL the languages. :razz: Which, honestly, if you've done the dungeons a bunch it shouldn't matter if everyone is spricht Deutsch.

    2) Select "Join party in progress".

    Axen on
    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    ForceVoid wrote: »
    Aren't the bear and lion mounts tank incentives of a sort?

    Yup, I made mention of them, however you only get credit towards them when tanking Extreme Primals or Coil content.

    As a frame of reference to show this isn't an issue only in FFXIV, in reading through an AMA from the Blizz Developers recently (17 days or so ago I think) they mention they may consider using their Scaling system on dungeons to add another DPS to the party size to help alleviate DPS queue times.

    This is a game that is over 10 years old and still hasn't "solved" the issue of DPS queue times, even though they did add in "scenarios" that have DPS something to do that didn't involve a Healer and Tank (admittedly I don't know much about what exactly that entailed, or if it's currently in WoD). Also keep in mind WoW uses a 3:1:1 ratio compared to FFXIV's 2:1:1 and they STILL have issues with DPS queue times.

    It's a very tricky problem indeed.

    NNID: delphinidaes
    Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
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  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    Some other things that you can do to ease the pain as it were.

    1) Select ALL the languages. :razz: Which, honestly, if you've done the dungeons a bunch it shouldn't matter if everyone is spricht Deutsch.

    2) Select "Join party in progress".

    Be careful with the language one actually. What it does is locks you into the first queue you qualify for, which if it's one of the less popular languages can actually INCREASE your queue times. For instance let's say you queue for Syrcus Tower and you check J,D,F,E and you get into the J queue. you are technicality not in the E,F,D queue anymore and will stay in the J queue until it fills with others who also have J selected. We tested this awhile back and were stuck in one of the queues for ST for 40+ mins or so until we dropped out, stuck to just E and re queued getting in almost instantly. It's more pronounced when you need to wait for entire parties to fill in 24 man content, but applies to 4 and 8 man content as well, so be careful. If you are getting super abnormally long queue times and you regularly select all the languages that may be a large contributing factor.

    NNID: delphinidaes
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  • EshEsh Tending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles. Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    edited December 2014
    Esh wrote: »
    Then the imbalance goes the other way. Specialized content takes away from the game as a whole.

    Are you honestly suggesting that doing that would introduce a DPS shortage? Because my initial reaction to this argument was to say you were concern trolling and to wish you a good day. On the off chance that you are being genuine with an argument this poorly constructed, I will say fine, put a switch on it so that it is only offered when the DPS queue exceeds 25% of the next highest queue category, like a pressure release valve. Which would come out to about 12.5 minutes.

    Last night I joined queue as a monk. When I joined queue it told me the average wait was 25 minutes. At minute 57 it changed the average wait time to 'over 30 minutes'. This is OBVIOUSLY not functioning in a way that is enjoyable to any DPS player, from the wait time itself to the presentation of the expected wait time to the player. At about 45 minutes I really needed to use the bathroom, but I dare not leave the damned computer because I have 40 seconds to get back to it when the queue pops or I start over at another goddess only knows how long queue.

    Yeah, because then all the DPS will decide to queue up for their "super fast DPS only dungeons" (and yes, I know you just offered a "solution" to that problem). Also, I wouldn't suggest calling people trolls on the forums. Pretty verboten.

    Basically, everything you're suggesting is over complicating an issue that really isn't that bad. Like I said, there are plenty of other exp gaining distractions to do while waiting for DPS queues. I'd also highly suggest joining a farm LS or two so you have more people to adventure with. That or ask in FC. I'm sure amongst the almost 400 members you'll find someone. That's the point of an MMO. Make friends, go with them.

    They're doing plenty. It's a player problem, not a game problem.

    Esh on
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2014
    Is this a thing that should happen, Yes/No?

    uWuMqI.jpg

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    We are the skeletons in our closets.
    We are the monsters under our beds.
    DelphinidaesTakel
  • GroveGrove Los AngelesRegistered User regular
    I agree with Delph about the steps taken. The only thing I really wish was that ALL tank queues counted towards the mounts. I have a 50 war and a 32ish Paladin, but I rarely participate in 8 man content. I almost always run the DF Roulettes with my tanks, but 4 man content doesn't count towards that.

    And I really doubt the new classes with be start at 50. Nevermind you need to actually learn how to use the skills and play the class, but some people may buy into the game solely because of Dark Knight, Machinist, or Astrologist. It would be terrible to buy the game, the expansion, and not be able to start your class.

    I get that rogue isn't selectable out of the gate, but it is after 10 levels which takes about 2 hours of grinding to get. If that.

    I would be shocked if the new classes started at 50. Besides...class/job stories! Can't compress 60 levels of story into lvl 50-60 content!

    Selling PS3 & 360 Madcatz TE Stick
  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    Is this a thing that should happen, Yes/No?

    [img][/img]

    Definitely, it's a good look for you imo.

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  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Yeah I fully expect the new Jobs to start at 1.

    I feel pretty confident that they aren't doing Class->Jobs anymore and that Jobs are the new class.

    Since, yeah it is kinda silly at the moment. Though who knows? They may add a new job to an existing class some day.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
    Riokenn
  • LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    I'm hoping that the Dark Knight and Astrologian classes help out. I imagine that adding more variety to the tank and healing class selection can only help bring more players over to the tanking and healing side of the content.

  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    LD50 wrote: »
    I'm hoping that the Dark Knight and Astrologian classes help out. I imagine that adding more variety to the tank and healing class selection can only help bring more players over to the tanking and healing side of the content.

    It definitely helps that they both look incredibly friggin cool.

    NNID: delphinidaes
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  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    More views. I'm adorable.

    DoTDGw.jpg
    wvWF5E.jpg

    We are the skeletons in our closets.
    We are the monsters under our beds.
    Rie
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Is this a thing that should happen, Yes/No?

    uWuMqI.jpg

    When's the big day?

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • PapaganderPapagander Registered User regular
    Yeah, its not a great situation but DPS queues are the penalty for playing a class with less responsibility. That's just the way of it in a trinity environment. It's a small thing sure, but they do take steps. They added something like 3.5k gil to the Tank adventurer in need bonus when ninja struck, so queuing low-level as a tank now is like 7.5k gil bonus on completion. A minor thing to be sure, but they are trying stuff.

    I'd like to see mounts specific to low lvl queue added per tank class, maybe for each healing class too. As others have said, its a hard thing to balance. DPS players tend to get angry that tanks and healers get cool stuff, even though all they have to do is level a tank/healer class and get them as well.

    I've often thought it's that mentality of "I dont wanna suck and ruin everyone's good time because I die as tank (or let tank die as heals)..." that stops some of us DPS from queuing in the other roles. So perhaps small bonuses to health or regen or whatnot based on lvl/previous-clears..... but of course, you can't do that because then the dynamic of play changes and the learning that needs to happen in the dungeon becomes in jeopardy.

    I'm a broken record on this but I think the only solid solution is access: provide incentives and avenues of access. With titles and mounts tied to specific classes with heals/tank roles, with the low level roulette, with heals and tanks that play very differently to adjust for multiple playstyles....FFXIV is in a very good place (imho). Current low level queues are still skewed with the new-ness of Rogue/Ninja (relatively).

    As ppl have mentioned, I highly recommend either fate hunting or craft leveling while waiting on a dps queue. In either case you can completely control your level of involvement, and there are good reasons to do both. If you're leveling a dps class some fates may be hard to solo (boss fates can be) but pick a zone you're slightly too high for and the xp will still be decent from the fates grinded. You get a little bit of gil, sometimes an item/minion, and if you've unlocked a Grand Company you have GC seals that can be spent on tons of awesome things. Crafting is a whole 'nother discussion but well worth doing and can be very engaging and fun.

    “There are no happy endings, because nothing ends.” ... also, "Ah, turn blue!"
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  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    When's the big day?

    I'll tell you when the schedule is not full.

    We are the skeletons in our closets.
    We are the monsters under our beds.
  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    Kind of sucks when I want to level THM just so I can get Swiftcast for my WHM. I should be able to queue as DPS with healer queue times for that! 8->

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
    Delphinidaes
  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    I think the only way to "solve" queue times is to make tank and healer classes just as inviting to play as DPS.

    Of course, figuring out how to do that is the hard part that I'm sure many, many game developers have been trying to figure out for over a decade now.

    IKknkhU.gif
    DelphinidaesStolls
  • TulabelleTulabelle Registered User regular
    edited December 2014
    Stilts wrote: »
    I think the only way to "solve" queue times is to make tank and healer classes just as inviting to play as DPS.

    Of course, figuring out how to do that is the hard part that I'm sure many, many game developers have been trying to figure out for over a decade now.

    I don't think being fun to play or not is the problem. I think the responsibility of keeping everyone alive (whether tanking or healing) turns a lot of people off and I don't think you can do anything about that with game mechanics. At least, I've never heard a good idea.

    Tulabelle on
    EshAxenDelphinidaesStolls
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Like the old adage goes.

    Tank dies, healer's fault. Healer dies, tank's fault. DPS dies, their own fault.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
    Sorce
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2014
    WoW got rid of some of the stress by removing threat/hate/enmity from the game and made tanking about active use of defensive skills.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    Tulabelle wrote: »
    Stilts wrote: »
    I think the only way to "solve" queue times is to make tank and healer classes just as inviting to play as DPS.

    Of course, figuring out how to do that is the hard part that I'm sure many, many game developers have been trying to figure out for over a decade now.

    I don't think being fun to play or not is the problem. I think the responsibility of keeping everyone alive (whether tanking or healing) turns a lot of people off and I don't think you can do anything about that with game mechanics. At least, I've never heard a good idea.

    You'll note that I said "inviting," not "fun."

    I agree that healing and tanking are fun.

    But as you yourself stated, it's not inviting because of the extra responsibility (especially for tanks).

    IKknkhU.gif
  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    WoW got rid of some of the stress by removing threat/hate/enmity from the game and made tanking about active use of defensive skills.

    Wait, seriously?

    I just started playing WoW, and as far as I can tell threat still exists.

    Or do you mean that tanks generate so much aggro that maintaining threat isn't really something you need to worry about anymore?

    IKknkhU.gif
  • EshEsh Tending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles. Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    edited December 2014
    Stilts wrote: »
    WoW got rid of some of the stress by removing threat/hate/enmity from the game and made tanking about active use of defensive skills.

    Wait, seriously?

    I just started playing WoW, and as far as I can tell threat still exists.

    Or do you mean that tanks generate so much aggro that maintaining threat isn't really something you need to worry about anymore?

    I think that's it. The dumbing down of the game for the LFR crowd.

    Esh on
    CorehealerIshtaarDelphinidaesSkeithAxen
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2014
    I just saw that room 3 is available and I can't afford to move. And with this posting, doubtless room 3 is no longer available.

    Edit: Room 3 sniped thanks to an interest free loan. Now collecting donations to pay back an interest free loan.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    We are the skeletons in our closets.
    We are the monsters under our beds.
  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    Esh wrote: »
    Stilts wrote: »
    WoW got rid of some of the stress by removing threat/hate/enmity from the game and made tanking about active use of defensive skills.

    Wait, seriously?

    I just started playing WoW, and as far as I can tell threat still exists.

    Or do you mean that tanks generate so much aggro that maintaining threat isn't really something you need to worry about anymore?

    I think that's it. The dumbing down of the game for the LFR crowd.

    I do appreciate that aggro has a reason for existing, but I also do like to brainstorm how to use other ways of encouraging tanks to balance DPS with "utility" skills in a different way.

    Like, imagine if the only aggro skill a tank had was a room-wide AoE "shout" that had no cooldown and gave every enemy a debuff that lasted, say, half a minute and forced them to target the tank. Basically, a way for a tank to get aggro but not really have to worry much about maintaining it (for the sake of this brainstorming, pretend that no specific raid mechanics exist that would make this blunt-force skill not ideal).

    Instead, the issue would be that enemies would deal too much damage to the tank for healers to reasonably keep up with...unless the tank continually cycles the various defense buff/attack debuff/damage shield skills they have into their rotation. If the tank is doing it properly, the damage they're taking becomes perfectly manageable. If they're doing it wrong, then the error becomes obvious (their health decreases much faster than normal) and they're the ones who are punished for screwing up (as opposed to the poor healer suddenly taking a hammer to the face when a tank doesn't properly hold aggro).

    I'm not saying this is the best solution (or even a better solution than a typical aggro mechanic), but it'd be neat to see MMO developers try out different ways of encouraging the trinity to play their roles.

    IKknkhU.gif
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Threat exists as a thing, but tank stances generate something like 300% additional threat. Instead of having just one or two "You take less damage" or "You gain more health" skills on long cooldowns, you also have a bunch of shorter cooldowns to heal yourself or increase your dodge/block/etc for a brief period. Tank damage was also increased so there is still merit in doing a damage rotation. You won't be beating the dps, but it does help the raid out when dps has to be rock solid.

    People whined about it dumbing the game down for filthy casuals, but these people say that about just about everything and can't see bad game design when it's staring them in the face.

    YL9WnCY.png
    Mill
  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    Threat exists as a thing, but tank stances generate something like 300% additional threat. Instead of having just one or two "You take less damage" or "You gain more health" skills on long cooldowns, you also have a bunch of shorter cooldowns to heal yourself or increase your dodge/block/etc for a brief period. Tank damage was also increased so there is still merit in doing a damage rotation. You won't be beating the dps, but it does help the raid out when dps has to be rock solid.

    People whined about it dumbing the game down for filthy casuals, but these people say that about just about everything and can't see bad game design when it's staring them in the face.

    Oh so...

    Basically what I just theorycrafted.

    I actually really like the sound of that system.

    IKknkhU.gif
  • EshEsh Tending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles. Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    edited December 2014
    Threat exists as a thing, but tank stances generate something like 300% additional threat. Instead of having just one or two "You take less damage" or "You gain more health" skills on long cooldowns, you also have a bunch of shorter cooldowns to heal yourself or increase your dodge/block/etc for a brief period. Tank damage was also increased so there is still merit in doing a damage rotation. You won't be beating the dps, but it does help the raid out when dps has to be rock solid.

    People whined about it dumbing the game down for filthy casuals, but these people say that about just about everything and can't see bad game design when it's staring them in the face.

    Not at all. It's a back and forth between the DPS and the tank as how to manage aggro and keep control of the mobs. I'd say that's great design and encourages cooperation between the roles.

    Esh on
    Grove
  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    Whereas I'd argue that both approaches have their merits.

    Like, what if FF14 decided to get fancy and make the Paladin and Warrior feel really different. So in a theoretical patch, the Warrior keeps the traditional aggro system, but the Paladin gets updated to use a more cooldown-focused, damage-mitigation approach like in WoW.

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  • TakelTakel Registered User regular
    Esh wrote: »
    Stilts wrote: »
    WoW got rid of some of the stress by removing threat/hate/enmity from the game and made tanking about active use of defensive skills.

    Wait, seriously?

    I just started playing WoW, and as far as I can tell threat still exists.

    Or do you mean that tanks generate so much aggro that maintaining threat isn't really something you need to worry about anymore?

    I think that's it. The dumbing down of the game for the LFR crowd.

    The threat generation on abilities has been increased with every expansion and with every odd patch or so to the point they may as well just take the threat multiplier for the tanking stance and hammer in a few dozen zeros and call it a done deal. And then they did the same with AoE threat. Partially because tanking was 'too hard' and the other is that DPS was scaling far faster than tanking threat. Personally I'm disappointed that they haven't moved away from [weapon damage + static value] for ability damage yet but that's a conversation for a different thread.

    Steam | PSN: MystLansfeld | 3DS: 4656-6210-1377 | FFXIV: Lavinia Lansfeld
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    It doesn't do dick for communication besides the tank yelling at people if they creep up too high on threat. You watch your little bar and pray you don't crit which is like a giant red light that something is rotten in the design. It really is just archaic design, and I say that as someone who tanked under both the old and new systems.

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    Mill
  • EshEsh Tending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles. Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    It doesn't do dick for communication besides the tank yelling at people if they creep up too high on threat. You watch your little bar and pray you don't crit which is like a giant red light that something is rotten in the design. It really is just archaic design, and I say that as someone who tanked under both the old and new systems.

    We'll agree to disagree then. I've also tanked the old (MC in vanilla WoW) and I like people actually cooperating with each other, rather than just a DPS zerg which is what it is now.

  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    threat is a stupid limiting mechanic. good riddance

This discussion has been closed.