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Shadow of Mordor: Like Hatoful Boyfriend, but with Orcs. Bright Lord DLC out now!

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  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    even if it does I'm still going to chop their heads off at every possible opportunity

    Dyvim Tvar
  • FakefauxFakefaux Humbaba My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland, how shall we answer Enlil in Nippur?Registered User regular
    edited March 10
    august wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Tolkien's orcs are completely and utterly without any redeeming qualities whatsoever. As such it seems improbable that a vidjagame is gonna go out of its way to explore moral ambiguities involved in chopping their heads off or mind controlling them.

    Edit: although exercising power over them is clearly a corrupting influence. It'll be interesting if it becomes advantageous for the duo to use the same tactics on non-orcs and if that's the kind that draws a wedge between Talion and Celembrimbor.

    You're correct. Tolkien seems to have seen orcs as more like lesser demons than flesh demi-humans. They were evil personified, embodying many of the worst aspects of human nature. By making them fleshy beings that live and reproduce and have culture like humans, as opposed to making them purely spirit-beings like balrogs or something, Tolkien raised some Unfortunate Implications. He was aware of the issue and struggled with it, but died before he could resolve it to his liking.

    I hardly expect a video game to try and resolve that thorny issue when he could not.

    Fakefaux on
  • MuddypawsMuddypaws Registered User regular
    There's a rather touching conversation between two orc captains where they reminisce about the good old days when they and a few mates buggered off into the wilds, beholden to no Big Boss, and how they'd like to do the same once the war is over.

  • FakefauxFakefaux Humbaba My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland, how shall we answer Enlil in Nippur?Registered User regular
    Muddypaws wrote: »
    There's a rather touching conversation between two orc captains where they reminisce about the good old days when they and a few mates buggered off into the wilds, beholden to no Big Boss, and how they'd like to do the same once the war is over.

    They also talk about how "the good old days" consisted of plundering and raiding, and that they'd like to get back to doing that independently, instead of under orders. I personally never took that conversation as "oh, look, orcs aren't evil at heart" but rather "oh, look, the orcs are disloyal to their masters and wish they could rape and pillage more freely."

  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    edited March 10
    Are there lady orcs or do orcs just like spring out of the ground?

    Kwoaru on
  • ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    Are there lady orcs or do orcs just like spring out of the ground?

    The uruk literally actually come out if of the ground

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Krypton, the noblest element. The gas of kings! Kings!Registered User, ClubPA regular
    "Nothing is evil in the beginning. Not even Sauron was so. Except Orcs. Just...just fuck em."

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  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    Are there lady orcs or do orcs just like spring out of the ground?

    The uruk literally actually come out if of the ground

    Yeah so are uruk like especially carefully cultivated turnips and the rest are just untended or are the uruk the exceptions

  • FakefauxFakefaux Humbaba My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland, how shall we answer Enlil in Nippur?Registered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    Are there lady orcs or do orcs just like spring out of the ground?

    Tolkien was notably mum on the topic, other than saying they breed "in the fashion of the other children of Iluvatar" IE the other children of god, IE humans and elves. So that suggests there are lady orcs. They just don't feature into the narrative, since we rarely ever visit orc family homes, just their military encampments.

  • FakefauxFakefaux Humbaba My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland, how shall we answer Enlil in Nippur?Registered User regular
    edited March 10
    "Nothing is evil in the beginning. Not even Sauron was so. Except Orcs. Just...just fuck em."

    This was the other part of the orc issue for Tolkien. In his early stories (pre LotR) he indicated that the dark powers made them from whole cloth; there's a line about them being created out of puddles of slime and mud, for example, which is probably where the movies got the idea for orcs being born out of the ground.But as a devout Christian, Tolkien also believed that nothing could be created purely evil, only corrupted to it. So he revised the origins, toying with orcs being created from transformed elves or humans, but he never settled on a definitive answer.

    Of all his worldbuilding inconsistencies, the nature of orcs, on multiple fronts, seems to have bothered him the most.

    Fakefaux on
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  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    The Uruk cloning pits or whatever were an invention of the films

    Also Tolkien does say in one of his letters that orcs, deep down, hate Sauron most of all, but the fear of him is stronger

    So that implies independent thought, at least, which should in turn imply they are not a monolith of murder and pillage

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  • FakefauxFakefaux Humbaba My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland, how shall we answer Enlil in Nippur?Registered User regular
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    The Uruk cloning pits or whatever were an invention of the films

    Also Tolkien does say in one of his letters that orcs, deep down, hate Sauron most of all, but the fear of him is stronger

    So that implies independent thought, at least, which should in turn imply they are not a monolith of murder and pillage

    The problem is, despite existing independently of Sauron or Morgoth for thousands of years at different points in the timeline, orcs are still all about the murdering and the pillaging every time we see them. And there are multiple references to orc raids during those periods.

  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    No I think I prefer to think of orcs as fantasy saibamen, and Uruk are just more carefully cultivated

    Which is why the first 5 hours of mordor two should be a farming sim as you grow your army

    glimmung
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Krypton, the noblest element. The gas of kings! Kings!Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Tolkien was a little wishy washy about things not actually being evil from the start.

    i.e. spiders

    They basically came from the darkness, evil and misbegotten from the get go.

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  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    The Uruk cloning pits or whatever were an invention of the films

    Also Tolkien does say in one of his letters that orcs, deep down, hate Sauron most of all, but the fear of him is stronger

    So that implies independent thought, at least, which should in turn imply they are not a monolith of murder and pillage

    The problem is, despite existing independently of Sauron or Morgoth for thousands of years at different points in the timeline, orcs are still all about the murdering and the pillaging every time we see them. And there are multiple references to orc raids during those periods.

    You're absolutely right
    Hmm
    I wonder if you took a newborn orc and raised him with humans or elves, what you would get

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  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    Like if you're raised in a chaotic evil culture of course that's all you'll know cause it's all your parents knew

    We've been spending most our lives living in an Uruk's paradise

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  • LuvTheMonkeyLuvTheMonkey High Sierra Serenade Registered User regular
    I've churned butter once or twice
    Living in an Uruk paradise
    It's hard work and sacrifice
    Living in an Uruk paradise
    We sell quilts at discount price
    Living in an Uruk paradise

    Molten variables hiss and roar. On my mind-forge, I hammer them into the greatsword Epistemology. Many are my foes this night.
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  • FakefauxFakefaux Humbaba My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland, how shall we answer Enlil in Nippur?Registered User regular
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    The Uruk cloning pits or whatever were an invention of the films

    Also Tolkien does say in one of his letters that orcs, deep down, hate Sauron most of all, but the fear of him is stronger

    So that implies independent thought, at least, which should in turn imply they are not a monolith of murder and pillage

    The problem is, despite existing independently of Sauron or Morgoth for thousands of years at different points in the timeline, orcs are still all about the murdering and the pillaging every time we see them. And there are multiple references to orc raids during those periods.

    You're absolutely right
    Hmm
    I wonder if you took a newborn orc and raised him with humans or elves, what you would get

    You'd think someone would have tried that at some point during those several thousand years, but no.

  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    edited March 10
    Stealing orc children: better or worse than mind controlling adult orc soldiers?

    Kwoaru on
  • FakefauxFakefaux Humbaba My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland, how shall we answer Enlil in Nippur?Registered User regular
    The thing is, the answer to the orc conundrum is seemingly obvious. They were bred as weapons, forced by inhuman powers to murder and destroy, kept in slavery. Tolkien makes a point that orc tribes are disunited and hostile to one another, almost never speaking the same language, having to use Westron as a lingua franca. They're atomized. And it makes sense, with the way they've been treated, that they've never been able to form a truly functioning society. They don't know how, or they haven't been allowed to.

    I suspect all of that occurred to Tolkien. He was no dummy. But if that was the answer, it then retroactively made all of his brave and noble heroes into monsters. Legolas and Gimli playing their kill count game, the Rohirrim burning orcs and sticking their heads on spears, they're all killing what is effectively an enslaved population of child-soldiers. Tolkien had been operating under the idea of orcs as personified human evils, demons, but when he finally came to grips with the idea that you can't have a personification of human evils as a physical race of beings without causing issues, he had already built a great deal of his story around it. To humanize the orcs would undermine his entire legendarium, his life's work.

    No wonder he was close lipped about it.

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  • StraightziStraightzi So farewell hope, and with hope farewell fear, Farewell remorse; all good to me is lost.Registered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    Stealing orc children: better or worse than mind controlling adult orc soldiers?

    I mean, it's for their own good, right? We're not talking about stealing babies just because, we're talking about taking them away from a harmful upbringing to raise into better people. I don't see what could be wrong about that.

    MorivethKwoaru
  • MorivethMoriveth Nobody suspects a thing... Registered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    Stealing orc children: better or worse than mind controlling adult orc soldiers?

    I mean, it's for their own good, right? We're not talking about stealing babies just because, we're talking about taking them away from a harmful upbringing to raise into better people. I don't see what could be wrong about that.

    Yeah, they just need to be reeducated from their savage nature.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Krypton, the noblest element. The gas of kings! Kings!Registered User, ClubPA regular
    So on a different topic.

    Who else listened to a bunch of Blind Guardian - Nightfall in Middle-Earth during their younger years?



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  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    edited March 10
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    Stealing orc children: better or worse than mind controlling adult orc soldiers?

    I mean, it's for their own good, right? We're not talking about stealing babies just because, we're talking about taking them away from a harmful upbringing to raise into better people. I don't see what could be wrong about that.
    Yeah pretty much

    Kwoaru on
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Krypton, the noblest element. The gas of kings! Kings!Registered User, ClubPA regular
    The words of a banished king
    "I swear revenge"
    Filled with anger aflamed our hearts
    Full of hate full of pride
    We screamed for revenge
    Niiiiiiightfaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallll

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  • FakefauxFakefaux Humbaba My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland, how shall we answer Enlil in Nippur?Registered User regular
    Alright, getting away from orc ethics...

    So this game has you build a new ring of power. What, exactly, is that supposed to do?

  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    The Uruk cloning pits or whatever were an invention of the films

    Also Tolkien does say in one of his letters that orcs, deep down, hate Sauron most of all, but the fear of him is stronger

    So that implies independent thought, at least, which should in turn imply they are not a monolith of murder and pillage

    that fits chaotic evil

  • GustavGustav Registered User regular
    Didn't Tolkien derive the term orc from some kind of Norse zombie? Orcneas if I remember right? I could see that more or less being the issue. Something with which he intended at the start to be utterly mindless evil ala a zombie type situation. But as they developed into more of an actual living creature with culture you get these sort of situations that are harder to square.

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  • ThetherooThetheroo skeleton punRegistered User regular
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    Alright, getting away from orc ethics...

    So this game has you build a new ring of power. What, exactly, is that supposed to do?

    presumably rule them all, find them, bring them all, and in the darkness bind them

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  • FakefauxFakefaux Humbaba My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland, how shall we answer Enlil in Nippur?Registered User regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    Didn't Tolkien derive the term orc from some kind of Norse zombie? Orcneas if I remember right? I could see that more or less being the issue. Something with which he intended at the start to be utterly mindless evil ala a zombie type situation. But as they developed into more of an actual living creature with culture you get these sort of situations that are harder to square.

    "Orcneas" was a vague term from Anglo-Saxon. It meant something comparable to "monster" and could be used to mean "ogre" or "giant" or "evil spirit" or "goblin" or what have you. Something of a catchall. It didn't mean any specific type of mythical being.

  • ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    Alright, getting away from orc ethics...

    So this game has you build a new ring of power. What, exactly, is that supposed to do?

    Shoot lasers

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  • GustavGustav Registered User regular
    Ah gotcha. I had some Tolkien etymology book (look at mister cool here) that suggested one of its origins as a zombie type creature. Though my memory might definitely be faulty here.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Krypton, the noblest element. The gas of kings! Kings!Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    Alright, getting away from orc ethics...

    So this game has you build a new ring of power. What, exactly, is that supposed to do?

    Same as the elven rings of power? Be neat and be a power boost.

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  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    look at mister cool here

    Where I don't see him

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  • FakefauxFakefaux Humbaba My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland, how shall we answer Enlil in Nippur?Registered User regular
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    Alright, getting away from orc ethics...

    So this game has you build a new ring of power. What, exactly, is that supposed to do?

    Same as the elven rings of power? Be neat and be a power boost.

    Well, the problem there is the elven rings of power were specifically tools of defense and healing, not weapons. So you probably wouldn't want to make one of those in this instance.

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Krypton, the noblest element. The gas of kings! Kings!Registered User, ClubPA regular
    The best defense is a good offense!

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  • FakefauxFakefaux Humbaba My friend, we have reduced the forest to a wasteland, how shall we answer Enlil in Nippur?Registered User regular
    The best defense is a good offense!

    If Talion wants to grow some really nice flowers, I think one of the elf rings would be super useful.

  • GustavGustav Registered User regular
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    Gustav wrote: »
    look at mister cool here

    Where I don't see him

    Listen, you aren't gunna get at me. I gotta go repaint my Lord of the Rings miniatures.

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  • Kevin CristKevin Crist To men of science like us, "Perfection" is a dead end. A condition of hopelessness.Registered User regular

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  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    I do have one, painfully obvious question, since I haven't finish Shadows of Mordor.

    Talion's DEAD, right? Like, the only reason he exists as a person is because Celebrimbor's Elven ghost is essentially possessing him and they have sort of a symbiotic relationship right?

    The reason I ask is because, if Talion splits from Celebrimbor, doesn't he just go back to being dead?

    Yes. Celebrimbor leaves him at one point and his throat wound immediately reopens and he starts to bleed out

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