[TRANS] thread, whatever

Metalbourne

Pony wrote: »

Metalbourne wrote: »

Cilla Black wrote: »

Metalbourne wrote: »

See this is what cracks me up

And it's kind of why I'm always worried about trans and feminism and every other kind of thread about marginalized people.

It's like two cis white dudes, not really saying anything problematic but yet being problematic by their presence. Just sort of having a conversation around everyone else. With each other. In the trans thread.

And I'm gonna be the one to catch hell for pointing it out.

that is what we call privilege.

Is there anything that we can do to avoid this sort of thing?

At a basic level, this may to be sort of a shitty question to ask, because it puts the onus on you to fix a problem someone else has created (as you've probably been asked to do many thousands of times before)

So if your answer is "figure it out yourself!" well, that'd be a fully justified reaction, and I'm sorry for asking the question

What can we (the cisgender people in the thread) do to be better about this stuff?

The obvious answer would probably be to just not talk around the people the thread is about

But I'm honestly not sure how to do that, outside of just not having pages and pages of conversations solely between cis people about trans* issues (which this thread has certainly had before and I've been at fault for)

And, again, I am really sorry if this is a bad question to ask for any reason.

Part of it is to highlight the fact that as a cishet make it is incredibly hard to avoid, especially if you're white.

But you gotta kind of step out of yourself here and look at the context. Two cishet dudes just gabbin' away about trans issues here in the trans thread, Patting themselves on the back about how progressive they are.

Which, you know, I really like both pony and goatmon, but I wanted to point out how ready it is to step on the toes of a marginalized group, especially as a cishet guy

not that I'm disagreeing with what you are saying

but

interest of clarity and all that

I'm cis, but not het

if you're using cishet in the generic to refer to other folk, that's okay

but that's not a word i want used for me

not offended or nothin, like i said the way that sentence is composed it can be read to be a sort of general statement and you might not been intending to be to talking about me when you used it

that said it can be very common to use "cishet" as a generic shorthand for not-trans people (especially those who say or do problematic things that you are criticizing) when that's potentially making assumptions about their sexual orientation you don't know

non-heterosexual people say problematic shit as much as anybody else, after all

it's something that i've been called a couple times in previous trans threads too (not generally as a derogative, just as sort of matter of fact) and i didn't say boo about it then but this time i'm gonna because i literally did earlier in this thread explicitly state my sexual orientation openly which is something i am loath to do so

Sorry about that bisexual erasure there, bro

Darmak

Tube wrote: »

King Riptor wrote: »

My body rejects my beard violently tube. What can I do?

If you've given it a month, your duty is discharged.

I gave mine two and a half months and it looked like most men I know after a couple days. I was not amused.

-Tal

bisexuality doesn't have to imply a binary, I have seen it defined as "attracted to both my gender and not my gender"

JoeUser

Has anyone watched Transparent?

King Riptor

Darmak wrote: »

Tube wrote: »

King Riptor wrote: »

My body rejects my beard violently tube. What can I do?

If you've given it a month, your duty is discharged.

I gave mine two and a half months and it looked like most men I know after a couple days. I was not amused.

Well Im arab so I have accelerated beard growth as a birthright . If it were possible Id donate it to the beard impaired. As it stands Im gonna laser it off. The rash I get is maddening.

Kochikens

I would like a beard.

Veldrin

ceres wrote: »

After some light reading, the issue with the asterisk seems to revolve around whether "trans" is inclusive of other non-cis identities, or inclusive enough. This is very confusing for me, because I just read a bunch of blog posts about how the trans* umbrella should include me as I am not strictly speaking cis, and then others saying that's stupid because trans already does, and I had not previously thought that trans included me with or without the *.

It's so many worlds easier to just say I'm a girl than to explain exactly how I feel to most people, and I have the privilege (in a sense of the word, anyway) of presenting as a girl when I say it. I was happy enough to find out that there was a concept for it and other people who feel similarly, but I never really thought that people who identify as trans would necessarily want me grouped in with them.

Yeah I'm a bit confused about it myself. It was brought up in one of the trans threads last year sometime (I can't quite remember by who) and, from what I gathered, the problem was that it has the effect of segregating trans folks into separate "groups". Maybe even different "authenticity"? As in, if you are trans you are specifically this but if you are trans* then you are one of these other options.

I've had a read around about the issue today too, but there seems to be a variety of differing reasons and opinions regarding the phrase within the for and against parties.

I'm bringing it up because I hadn't actually seen the asterisk used for quite a while until just recently when it seems to have popped up all over the place again. That might just be coincidence though.

Kochikens

Veldrin wrote: »

ceres wrote: »

After some light reading, the issue with the asterisk seems to revolve around whether "trans" is inclusive of other non-cis identities, or inclusive enough. This is very confusing for me, because I just read a bunch of blog posts about how the trans* umbrella should include me as I am not strictly speaking cis, and then others saying that's stupid because trans already does, and I had not previously thought that trans included me with or without the *.

It's so many worlds easier to just say I'm a girl than to explain exactly how I feel to most people, and I have the privilege (in a sense of the word, anyway) of presenting as a girl when I say it. I was happy enough to find out that there was a concept for it and other people who feel similarly, but I never really thought that people who identify as trans would necessarily want me grouped in with them.

Yeah I'm a bit confused about it myself. It was brought up in one of the trans threads last year sometime (I can't quite remember by who) and, from what I gathered, the problem was that it has the effect of segregating trans folks into separate "groups". Maybe even different "authenticity"? As in, if you are trans you are specifically this but if you are trans* then you are one of these other options.

I've had a read around about the issue today too, but there seems to be a variety of differing reasons and opinions regarding the phrase within the for and against parties.

I'm bringing it up because I hadn't actually seen the asterisk used for quite a while until just recently when it seems to have popped up all over the place again. That might just be coincidence though.

ehh... Trans* doesn't specifically refer to genderqueer or agender or anything other than transwomen and transmen, it just refers to the entire spectrum and very specifically includes it whereas Trans doesn't necessarily, inherently, I guess? Maybe it's gone out of fashion, but I still like it as a quick way to refer to the whole gender spectrum (or lack thereof) without denoting a specific thing.

Tube

Kochikens wrote: »

I would like a beard.

I'll be your beard if I get a free thanksgiving meal out of it. We can say we met on Tinder.

Kochikens

Tube wrote: »

Kochikens wrote: »

I would like a beard.

I'll be your beard if I get a free thanksgiving meal out of it. We can say we met on Tinder.

fuck
my parents just sent me a photo of a giant 20lb turkey
I AM SO INTENSELY JEALOUS.

Fyndir

We don't really do thanksgiving here, but you can come round for Christmas dinner if you like. I don't know how big the turkeys are getting this year, but it's not unusual for us to have to cut the legs off to fit it in the oven.

Sterica

Kochikens wrote: »

I would like a beard.

Kochi the Gray

Magus`

Forgive me if I don't ask this right (or use the wrong terms!) or it has been asked before:

If you* could go back in time and become the gender you identify with from day one, would you do it? Or do you consider the experience of being one gender and then transitioning into another a valuable component of what makes you "you"? If you did option A, would you prefer to remember what it was like going through the transgender experience or would you rather forget it?

If there was an operation (and medication?) that made one gender fully become another (including functioning reproductive organs) do you think that would change the "culture"**/public idea of transgender people? I realize this is a very abstract question, but I'm curious what people think.

* Anyone feel free to throw in their feelings.
** Couldn't think of a better term, sorry.

Blake T

Fyndir wrote: »

We don't really do thanksgiving here, but you can come round for Christmas dinner if you like. I don't know how big the turkeys are getting this year, but it's not unusual for us to have to cut the legs off to fit it in the oven.

You cut.

One of the tastier cuts of the bird off.

To fit it in the oven.....

smof

I think they probably still cook and eat the legs, Blake. They're not savages.

DaMoonRulz

Whipstitch Zombie wrote: »

Weaver wrote: »

Does this mean we can also have a brain problems mega-thread as well?

ARE YOU SERIOUSLY SAYING TRANS STUFF IS BRAIN PROBLEMS

ARE YOU SERIOUSLY EQUATING THE TWO

ARE YOU SERIOUS

I think you may be overreacting here. I was under the impression that after the last Brain Problem thread and last Trans thread closed down they were put out to pasture for awhile.

ceres

DaMoonRulz wrote: »

Whipstitch Zombie wrote: »

Weaver wrote: »

Does this mean we can also have a brain problems mega-thread as well?

ARE YOU SERIOUSLY SAYING TRANS STUFF IS BRAIN PROBLEMS

ARE YOU SERIOUSLY EQUATING THE TWO

ARE YOU SERIOUS

I think you may be overreacting here. I was under the impression that after the last Brain Problem thread and last Trans thread closed down they were put out to pasture for awhile.

Trans threads and feminism threads are both allowed to recur after an unspecified period of time. It's actually been quite a while since the last trans thread was created and finished. As far as I'm aware, brain problems threads are done.

ceres

Magus` wrote: »

Forgive me if I don't ask this right (or use the wrong terms!) or it has been asked before:

If you* could go back in time and become the gender you identify with from day one, would you do it? Or do you consider the experience of being one gender and then transitioning into another a valuable component of what makes you "you"? If you did option A, would you prefer to remember what it was like going through the transgender experience or would you rather forget it?

If there was an operation (and medication?) that made one gender fully become another (including functioning reproductive organs) do you think that would change the "culture"**/public idea of transgender people? I realize this is a very abstract question, but I'm curious what people think.

* Anyone feel free to throw in their feelings.
** Couldn't think of a better term, sorry.

It feels like this is almost always asked somewhere, and is a very contentious thing that is different for different people, I'm sure. To me it feels like a useless thought exercise anyway because we just don't live in that world.

Vic

I have sworn not to go back in time until I find the identity of future-hitler, in any case.

Magus`

We will have to disagree on what is considered useless, but point taken. Unfortunately I can't think of any other questions at the moment.

ceres

I mean, I'm sure it's a fun thought exercise for someone who doesn't live it.. but look at the deaf community for how badly the practice can tear people (and families) apart. It's problematic.

Vic

Magus` wrote: »

We will have to disagree on what is considered useless, but point taken. Unfortunately I can't think of any other questions at the moment.

As with any hypothetical involving an experience that included trauma (as the life of almost ever trans person does), looking back with that kind of lens can often lead to a lot more pain than good. Examining every aspect of your life, trying to ascribe it a positive or negative value... it's a tricky thing. Your question can easily be taken as "do you think your pain has been worthwhile", which is kind of a fucked up thing to ask.

Usagi

Kochikens wrote: »

I would like a beard.

@Kochikens we can make that happen

Magus`

Sorry, guess I couldn't properly put into words what I was thinking. I'll just bow out politely.

Vic

I don't think anyone wants you to feel unwelcome in here Magus, we were just trying to explain why that particular line of questions can be problematic.

Artreus

Metalbourne wrote: »

Pony wrote: »

Metalbourne wrote: »

Cilla Black wrote: »

Metalbourne wrote: »

See this is what cracks me up

And it's kind of why I'm always worried about trans and feminism and every other kind of thread about marginalized people.

It's like two cis white dudes, not really saying anything problematic but yet being problematic by their presence. Just sort of having a conversation around everyone else. With each other. In the trans thread.

And I'm gonna be the one to catch hell for pointing it out.

that is what we call privilege.

Is there anything that we can do to avoid this sort of thing?

At a basic level, this may to be sort of a shitty question to ask, because it puts the onus on you to fix a problem someone else has created (as you've probably been asked to do many thousands of times before)

So if your answer is "figure it out yourself!" well, that'd be a fully justified reaction, and I'm sorry for asking the question

What can we (the cisgender people in the thread) do to be better about this stuff?

The obvious answer would probably be to just not talk around the people the thread is about

But I'm honestly not sure how to do that, outside of just not having pages and pages of conversations solely between cis people about trans* issues (which this thread has certainly had before and I've been at fault for)

And, again, I am really sorry if this is a bad question to ask for any reason.

Part of it is to highlight the fact that as a cishet make it is incredibly hard to avoid, especially if you're white.

But you gotta kind of step out of yourself here and look at the context. Two cishet dudes just gabbin' away about trans issues here in the trans thread, Patting themselves on the back about how progressive they are.

Which, you know, I really like both pony and goatmon, but I wanted to point out how ready it is to step on the toes of a marginalized group, especially as a cishet guy

not that I'm disagreeing with what you are saying

but

interest of clarity and all that

I'm cis, but not het

if you're using cishet in the generic to refer to other folk, that's okay

but that's not a word i want used for me

not offended or nothin, like i said the way that sentence is composed it can be read to be a sort of general statement and you might not been intending to be to talking about me when you used it

that said it can be very common to use "cishet" as a generic shorthand for not-trans people (especially those who say or do problematic things that you are criticizing) when that's potentially making assumptions about their sexual orientation you don't know

non-heterosexual people say problematic shit as much as anybody else, after all

it's something that i've been called a couple times in previous trans threads too (not generally as a derogative, just as sort of matter of fact) and i didn't say boo about it then but this time i'm gonna because i literally did earlier in this thread explicitly state my sexual orientation openly which is something i am loath to do so

Sorry about that bisexual erasure there, bro

I dont know if this is a serious response or not

Kochikens

http://www.boredpanda.com/powerful-illustrations-showing-women-how-to-fight-against-society-prejudices/

Pretty cool

Fyndir

Brovid Hasselsmof wrote: »

I think they probably still cook and eat the legs, Blake. They're not savages.

Well, yeah, I didn't really think that needed saying.

Although if it aggravated Blake I'm just gonna be pleased with myself over it. 8-)

ceres

Kochikens wrote: »

http://www.boredpanda.com/powerful-illustrations-showing-women-how-to-fight-against-society-prejudices/

Pretty cool

I agree, but sigh the comments.

Kochikens

why would you ever read the comments

ceres

Masochism.

Doobh

Some people have a wingle

Others have a wangle

And we base our rules of society on this

Metalbourne

Dubh wrote: »

Some people have a wingle

Others have a wangle

And we base our rules of society on this

Well a few people have a wing-wang, let's not forget them.

Metalbourne

Kochikens wrote: »

http://www.boredpanda.com/powerful-illustrations-showing-women-how-to-fight-against-society-prejudices/

Pretty cool

I love these

Hawkstone

Kochikens wrote: »

why would you ever read the comments

Gah...I cant stand the comments after the average article about sports or comics, I cannot fathom braving them on a topic of any actual importance.

Lockout

Brovid Hasselsmof wrote: »

Hey Albino Bunny. I am female for all intents and purposes, but my whole life I have played male characters in games if I got to choose. When I was kid and had daydreams or played pretend with friends I would roleplay a guy. I've mentioned before in one of these threads having a fairly distressing moment about age 8 when I realised I would grow up into a woman and never get to be a dude. I totally rejected girly stuff as soon as I was old enough to choose my own clothes, have never worn makeup, and last year cut my hair really short which was the best thing ever, I am so much more comfortable with short hair it is unreal, like the best decision I've ever made.

I've talked in past iterations of these threads about questioning my gender identity because of all these reasons, and I had a lot of the same concerns as you - I'm a long-term buddy of depression and blah blah, so have wondered if it was just being unhappy in general. I think I should have been born male, and if I could flick a switch I probably would, but I don't feel like I am male and I don't want to transition although the idea has felt appealing on occasion.

I don't really hate being female and recently I even bought a dress for the first time in nearly 20 years and I felt really good in it and am thinking I will probably start wearing dresses and skirts in future.

I've kind of flip-flopped in the past on where my gender identity is, between "probably trans?" and "definitely not trans" and anywhere in between. Right now I'm settled on gender-meh. Which is kind of like genderweird but more apathetic.

Basically I know none of this is actually helpful to you figuring anything out but I know the feeling of wanting to know for sure what you feel, and what I've learned is sometimes you just don't, and that's ok. How you feel isn't something you figure out or decide, it's something that happens to you. And I guess to say yo, I relate to what you're saying, so you're maybe not as weird as you think.

yeah, feeling as though your gender fluctuates can make things even more confusing than general trans stuff already is

if we're talking like the feminine-masculine binary is a spectrum with androgyny in the middle, my genderfeels tend to waver from ladytastic to the slightly masculine side of androgyny

but then there are periods where I feel very neutral, like the binary is bullshit and I'm genderless or agender. still working out if that might just be me trying to insulate myself from feeling exceptionally dysphoric, but I don't really think so

I guess my only point is that like sexual orientation, gender often shifts about and changes. some people are rock solid in their identities their whole lives, but a lot definitely aren't. is a totally normal thing for feelings to fluctuate and to continually question and wonder about yourself

Doobh

Genderfluidity is trans imo

DaMoonRulz

Dubh wrote: »

Genderfluidity is trans imo

Pangender?

Lockout

Dubh wrote: »

Genderfluidity is trans imo

definitely not trying come across like I disagree with that

being transgender is your gender identity or expression not matching up with your assigned sex, so genderfluid falls under the umbrella

I used some sloppy phrasing, apologies

-Tal

there are genderfluid people who don't identify themselves as trans