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[The Legend of Zelda] This thread got turned into a pink bunny, find the new one.

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    Emperor_ZEmperor_Z Registered User regular
    edited November 2014
    Maz- wrote: »
    Emperor_Z wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, what was the dungeon count for Twilight Princess? I was really surprised by Wind Waker's structure when I replayed it, and part of that was that it only has four dungeons in total. This was jarring when a game like Ocarina of Time has like, 10. Wondering if Twilight Princess has a similarly low dungeon count

    Never really played Skyward Sword either (though Hyrule Warriors has compelled me to readd it to my backlog), so I'll ask the same question about that.

    Wind Waker has 6-7 dungeons, depending on your count.
    Twilight Princess has 9, Skyward Sword 7.

    Oh, whoops, I did forget the Temple of Time or whatever it is. I'm personally not sure that I'd count Forbidden Fortress as a dungeon, and even Ganon's tower feels like a little bit of a stretch. It was more just a boss rush and a puzzle.

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    Care Free BombCare Free Bomb Registered User regular
    Emperor_Z wrote: »
    Maz- wrote: »
    Emperor_Z wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, what was the dungeon count for Twilight Princess? I was really surprised by Wind Waker's structure when I replayed it, and part of that was that it only has four dungeons in total. This was jarring when a game like Ocarina of Time has like, 10. Wondering if Twilight Princess has a similarly low dungeon count

    Never really played Skyward Sword either (though Hyrule Warriors has compelled me to readd it to my backlog), so I'll ask the same question about that.

    Wind Waker has 6-7 dungeons, depending on your count.
    Twilight Princess has 9, Skyward Sword 7.

    Oh, whoops, I did forget the Temple of Time or whatever it is. I'm personally not sure that I'd count Forbidden Fortress as a dungeon, and even Ganon's tower feels like a little bit of a stretch. It was more just a boss rush and a puzzle.

    Forbidden Fortress is definitely a dungeon, you just visit it twice so you don't spend a full dungeon's time there all at once

    I mean, it's got a dungeon map, compass, item, and boss with heart container, I don't think there are more clear hallmarks of a Zelda dungeon

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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited November 2014
    I've been thinking about this recently. There's always a lot of dancing on dungeon counts I think. :)

    Friend and I were trying to look up the Zelda with the most dungeons in it, and there was some real stretching going on. Someone said Link to the Past had the most and proceeded to include Hyrule Castle+sewers and Hyrule Castle tower as two separate dungeons, and also the Palace of the Four Sword for some reason. Some OoT counts include Bottom of the Well, or the Ice Cavern. Wind Waker's Forsaken Fortress is even kind of debatable in my mind, due to the lack of meaningful puzzles/roadblocks.

    I think we need to have two counts, separating obvious dungeons from almost-sorta-kinda-dungeons. Generally a dungeon has a big chest with a crucial item (Link Between Worlds as an exception) and ends with a boss that gives you a full heart. I think anything other than that has got to be debatable.

    A lot of lists always include Ganon's Castle/Tower as a dungeon, but they're really not created equally. In Zelda 1 it's the largest, most tricky dungeon in the game. In Link to the Past it's a legit dungeon. In Wind Waker it's a short maze and a boss rush.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, just because there are some rooms that look dungeon-like and adopt some mechanics from dungeons doesn't mean you are actually in a dungeon. Not sure how to resolve it to everyone's satisfaction, I just think we could stand to separate the definites from the maybes.

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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Yeah. I think there's some clear cases without a heart that are dungeons... like Ganon's Caste in OoT, but otherwise yeah.

    I'm trying to decide if the one gauntlet in the desert in TP should count or not. Don't recall its length though.

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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    The.... that gauntlet in TP, presided over by the Great Fairy? It was colossal, roughly the same size as the equivalent in Wind Waker and harder to boot

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    Emperor_ZEmperor_Z Registered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    The.... that gauntlet in TP, presided over by the Great Fairy? It was colossal, roughly the same size as the equivalent in Wind Waker and harder to boot

    It's weird. I know exactly what area in Wind Waker you're talking about (and still would have even if I hadn't played WWHD), but I have no idea what you're referring to in Twilight Princess, despite it being the newer game

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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Those are cool and big but they're not exactly dungeons. They're like extra unnecessary challenges.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Someone said Link to the Past had the most and proceeded to include Hyrule Castle+sewers and Hyrule Castle tower as two separate dungeons

    You don't?

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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Enlong wrote: »
    Someone said Link to the Past had the most and proceeded to include Hyrule Castle+sewers and Hyrule Castle tower as two separate dungeons

    You don't?

    I don't even know if they count as one dungeon. They're both small and lacking in puzzles compared to other dungeons. The lower castle has a map but no compass. You do get the boomerang but it's not treated with as much fanfare as the usual dungeon item. I guess it's training wheels for the rest of the game.

    I feel like if you want to count something like that, you might as well also say the various caves of Death Mountain are also a dungeon.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    At the least, the tower should, what with it ending with the Agahnim fight.

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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Do you get a heart from him? Not that that needs to be a requirement, I just forget.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    No.

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    SilverWindSilverWind Registered User regular
    Emperor_Z wrote: »
    Wyborn wrote: »
    The.... that gauntlet in TP, presided over by the Great Fairy? It was colossal, roughly the same size as the equivalent in Wind Waker and harder to boot

    It's weird. I know exactly what area in Wind Waker you're talking about (and still would have even if I hadn't played WWHD), but I have no idea what you're referring to in Twilight Princess, despite it being the newer game

    http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Cave_of_Ordeals

    It's right below the chunk of bridge or such that Midna warps away (so there's a warp spot right on top of it).

    Looking at the wiki, I didn't realize it was different if you attempted it a second time. Hunh. (Postman?!)

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    BarrakkethBarrakketh Registered User regular
    Emperor_Z wrote: »
    Wyborn wrote: »
    The.... that gauntlet in TP, presided over by the Great Fairy? It was colossal, roughly the same size as the equivalent in Wind Waker and harder to boot

    It's weird. I know exactly what area in Wind Waker you're talking about (and still would have even if I hadn't played WWHD), but I have no idea what you're referring to in Twilight Princess, despite it being the newer game
    The Cave of Ordeals. The entrance is in the desert, I believe where the missing part of the stone bridge is.

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    Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    edited November 2014
    I would say together they count as one dungeon. Sort of like revisiting Forsaken Fortress.

    But it depends on how you define dungeon. Because there are proper dungeons, which are pretty much all punctuated with getting some mcguffin (triforce piece, jewel in statue, pendant/maiden rescue, wind fish instrument, sacred stone/awakened sage, etc). And then there are dungeons that are just kind of there and don't really follow the normal formula exactly.

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    Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    Just saw there was a part 2 to the comparison video now:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VuSzeXI7Nk

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    skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    edited November 2014

    Aonuma sheds new light on Zelda: Majora’s Mask 3D – origins, changes, New 3DS tease, more

    Despite having only been announced last week, Famitsu already has an update on The Legend of Zelda: Majora’s Mask 3D. The magazine spoke with longtime Zelda producer Eiji Aonuma about the remake.

    A portion of Famitsu’s interview covers Majora Mask 3D’s origins. According to Aonuma, after Ocarina of Time 3D released, they considered what to develop next. Shigeru Miyamoto came to Aonuma and said, “If we ported Majora’s Mask to a portable device, wouldn’t it play more smoothly than the original as it is possible to put the game in sleep mode at any time?”

    Aonuma initially refused since he had memories about how development of the original game faced great difficulties. He also thought, “if we made the remake, there would likely be many parts to be changed”. However, when Aonuma considered the remake seriously and played the original again, he thought: “If this thing is changed, it would be easier to play” and thus the new form of Majora’s Mask formed in his mind.

    In the original Majora’s Mask, the difficulty balance assumed that players had experienced Ocarina of Time before. But for the remake, new players are also being considered. Aonuma explained to Famitsu, “Specifically speaking, parts that were conventions and weren’t explained at all are changed, and challenges which you realize by repeating many times are made easier to understand.”

    Rather than making the experience simpler, the changes in Majora’s Mask 3D are intended to help stumped players with hints. The three-day cycle remains the same, and the system for following other people’s actions aren’t changed. There is, however, a boss battle that is seeing changes. As a new element, players will be able to fish at two places.

    Ocarina of Time 3D introduced some gyro controls. These are returning in the Majora’s Mask remake. The development team is also using the know-how from A Link Between Worlds to make more pleasant touch controls.

    Before Majora’s Mask 3D was announced, some speculated that the game could end up as a New 3DS exclusive. We now know for sure following last week’s announcement that this isn’t so. Aonuma does comment on the new handheld and notes that the visuals are the same when played on the original 3DS or New 3DS. He leaves the following mysterious tease though: “Please wait for the opportunity to discuss how playing on the New 3DS differs at a later date.”

    Those were the important points on Majora’s Mask 3D. However, Famitsu’s interview also touches on the original N64 game and reveals some interesting information about its development.

    Majora’s Mask was born when Aonuma suggested that instead of making Master Quest (same dungeons than in Ocarina of Time, but different challenges), they would make entirely new dungeons. “New dungeons are better since while being fast [to develop], more interesting things could be done,” Aonuma told the magazine.

    As Master Quest was originally planned to be developed in a year, when Aonuma asked Miyamoto “I’d like to do things like this”, he replied: “As only one year [of development] is given, if you can create a new Zelda in that time, then please try.”

    Because of the tight schedule, the team needed to solve how to deal with the smaller volume. That’s when Yoshiaki Koizumi talked about a popular movie of that time, Run Lola Run, in which a heroine lives the same time periods multiple times. Koizumi suggested using a similar structure for the game. Originally, the cycle was planned to last a full week, but in that way Majora’s Mask couldn’t be finished in a year. The cycle was changed to contain of a start, a middle, and an end as a result.

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    Emperor_ZEmperor_Z Registered User regular
    edited November 2014
    I wonder which boss will be getting the changes. None of them stick out to me as particularly difficult or low-quality.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Gyorg, probably.

    Much as I'd hope for some sort of SOTC-esque change to the Twinmold fight, I'm not holding my breath.

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    Blackbird SR-71CBlackbird SR-71C Registered User regular
    I'll be honest, MM 3D doesn't look too great. It's a weird compromise between trying to get the best out of it vs. limitations of the 3DS hardware. Which might sound like whining, but take a look at Wind Waker HD - that game looks absolutely gorgeous even though I'm not a fan of the bloom/less saturated colours. Makes you wish they'd have remade MM 3D for the Wii U though :(

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    skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    edited November 2014
    I think it has a lot to do with the fact that MM on the N64 actually didn't look quite that bad, at least not compared to OoT.

    Thanks to the expansion pack of course.

    Though the 3D version is still a noticeable improvement.

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    SilverWindSilverWind Registered User regular
    My first thought was Gyorg as well, because I hate that fish.

    But thinking about conventions one may be used to by playing OOT, I wonder if the change is simply adding a comment to the Igos of Ikana battle so that people know to burn the curtains.

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    Care Free BombCare Free Bomb Registered User regular
    It's definitely Gyorg, right at the beginning in this video
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    Just saw there was a part 2 to the comparison video now:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VuSzeXI7Nk

    You can see they gave it an eye in its mouth

    that would be a weird add if they didn't change anything about the fight

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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Gyorg didn't involve any particular conventions from Ocarina of Time, though

    I would almost expect the eye to just be a cosmetic change

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    King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    edited November 2014
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Gyorg didn't involve any particular conventions from Ocarina of Time, though

    I would almost expect the eye to just be a cosmetic change

    None of the bosses do except maybe Odolwa since it's easier to fight him as young link. The rest use new mechanics and Swimming in Gyorgs arena is problematic. MM assumed you knew how the bulk of OoT's puzzles worked.

    Also new 3DS only store confirmed ?

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    Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    edited November 2014
    I'm almost wondering if it's Goht. If I'm remembering right, that battle doesn't particularly telegraph well how to fight him. If a new player doesn't pick up on the Goron roll, they'd have trouble.

    He's also kind of a pain in the ass to catch at times.

    Edit: On the other hand, isn't it possible to reach Twinmold without the Giant's Mask? Maybe they will fix that?

    Edit 2: Also I am guessing 3DS vs. New 3DS = 30fps vs 60fps. I can't see what else they could possibly do with the extra power that wouldn't be like, a huge addition to the game that the normal 3DS version doesn't get. Unless they do something w/ the nub or extra shoulder buttons I guess.

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    Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    edited November 2014
    http://nintendoeverything.com/aonuma-zelda-wii-u-looks-even-better-than-before-update-at-e3-2015/
    This week’s issue of Famitsu has an interview with Zelda producer Eiji Aonuma. While much of the discussion focused on Majora’s Mask, the magazine also managed to ask a couple of questions about Zelda Wii U.

    Aonuma mentioned that many styles were considered to suit a Zelda game set in a wide world before deciding on the current visuals. On the topic of graphics, Aonuma teases: “Now it looks more amazing than what was shown at E3.”

    Aonuma additionally notes that the enemy shown in the debut trailer is something not previously seen in the series as you have to come up with a strategy while escaping on horse. He stresses that “If an enemy like this appears, how would you beat it?” is a situation which the team has tried to include in the game.

    So when will we see Zelda for Wii U again? Aonuma thinks that Nintendo may have new things to show at E3 next year.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Gyorg's mouth-eye could simply be a "SHOOT THIS BIT" sign. It wouldn't change the flow of the battle, as you had to boomerang his mouth area anyway.

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    Edit 2: Also I am guessing 3DS vs. New 3DS = 30fps vs 60fps. I can't see what else they could possibly do with the extra power that wouldn't be like, a huge addition to the game that the normal 3DS version doesn't get. Unless they do something w/ the nub or extra shoulder buttons I guess.

    Controllable camera or more quick options for masks/items?
    I'd like it if they mapped the 3 main masks to the dpad, along with the ocarina. Free up the other buttons for other stuff.

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    Emperor_ZEmperor_Z Registered User regular
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    I'm almost wondering if it's Goht. If I'm remembering right, that battle doesn't particularly telegraph well how to fight him. If a new player doesn't pick up on the Goron roll, they'd have trouble.

    He's also kind of a pain in the ass to catch at times.

    Edit: On the other hand, isn't it possible to reach Twinmold without the Giant's Mask? Maybe they will fix that?

    Edit 2: Also I am guessing 3DS vs. New 3DS = 30fps vs 60fps. I can't see what else they could possibly do with the extra power that wouldn't be like, a huge addition to the game that the normal 3DS version doesn't get. Unless they do something w/ the nub or extra shoulder buttons I guess.

    You don't need the Giant's Mask to fight Twinmold. He can be fought with a bow

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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Gyorg didn't involve any particular conventions from Ocarina of Time, though

    I would almost expect the eye to just be a cosmetic change

    None of the bosses do except maybe Odolwa since it's easier to fight him as young link. The rest use new mechanics and Swimming in Gyorgs arena is problematic. MM assumed you knew how the bulk of OoT's puzzles worked.

    Also new 3DS only store confirmed ?

    As @SilverWind mentioned, Igos of Ikana involves burning curtains, which is done in Ocarina of Time but is not even hinted at in Majora's Mask. The fight is a real head-scratcher if you don't pick up on that.

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    skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    Looks like Toon Link will also unlock the spinner weapon

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    TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    Now that the first Mario Kart DLC is out in the wild, maybe we'll get details on that Twilight Princess pack.

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    TDawgTDawg Registered User regular
    Emperor_Z wrote: »
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    I'm almost wondering if it's Goht. If I'm remembering right, that battle doesn't particularly telegraph well how to fight him. If a new player doesn't pick up on the Goron roll, they'd have trouble.

    He's also kind of a pain in the ass to catch at times.

    Edit: On the other hand, isn't it possible to reach Twinmold without the Giant's Mask? Maybe they will fix that?

    Edit 2: Also I am guessing 3DS vs. New 3DS = 30fps vs 60fps. I can't see what else they could possibly do with the extra power that wouldn't be like, a huge addition to the game that the normal 3DS version doesn't get. Unless they do something w/ the nub or extra shoulder buttons I guess.

    You don't need the Giant's Mask to fight Twinmold. He can be fought with a bow

    I recall my good friend doing that when we were in middle school and I thought he was absolutely batshit insane. It took a while, too.

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    skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Wow, the differences in the environments is incredible.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Apparently, each Twinmold takes extra damage from magic arrows. Fire on the blue one, and Ice on the red.

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    initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    I've never actually played MM beyond the very intro... I should probably give it a shot this time.

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    Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    I've never actually played MM beyond the very intro... I should probably give it a shot this time.

    Yes, Majora's Mask is amazing. And hopefully this version will smooth some of the edges that I think have turned people off in the past.

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    Emperor_ZEmperor_Z Registered User regular
    I've never actually played MM beyond the very intro... I should probably give it a shot this time.

    I love Majora's Mask so much, it makes me sad when the intro and 3-day concept scares people away. I don't know if that's the case with you, but if it is, push past that! It's not as difficult as it seems

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