The good thing is if you are willing to expend the mana you have massive single target killing ability. Doing straight holy damage just blows away what the physical damage from ret would do.
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White crit, seal of command crit, crusader strike crit adds up to about 6k. Judgement of Righteousness crit plus holy shock crit is what, 2k? I think you're exaggerating a bit.
On what, a target with 0 armor? And at 69, my JOR crits for over 1500 and holy shock for 1400. This is with Crusader judged, but as holy this is pretty much on every single mob anyway.
The good thing is if you are willing to expend the mana you have massive single target killing ability. Doing straight holy damage just blows away what the physical damage from ret would do.
.
White crit, seal of command crit, crusader strike crit adds up to about 6k. Judgement of Righteousness crit plus holy shock crit is what, 2k? I think you're exaggerating a bit.
On what, a target with 0 armor? And at 69, my JOR crits for over 1500 and holy shock for 1400. This is with Crusader judged, but as holy this is pretty much on every single mob anyway.
Well, when I respecced Ret with poor gear (1050 AP, and Thunder as my weapon), I'd crit Lts. in AV for 1500 with AV wrath up, and clothies for 2k. I've seen Judgements of Command for 2.5k. Thats with ~330 spell power.
In my holy gear I have 450 spell power,and JoR crits for about 850.
DisruptorX2 on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
The good thing is if you are willing to expend the mana you have massive single target killing ability. Doing straight holy damage just blows away what the physical damage from ret would do.
.
White crit, seal of command crit, crusader strike crit adds up to about 6k. Judgement of Righteousness crit plus holy shock crit is what, 2k? I think you're exaggerating a bit.
On what, a target with 0 armor? And at 69, my JOR crits for over 1500 and holy shock for 1400. This is with Crusader judged, but as holy this is pretty much on every single mob anyway.
Um...in the 60's with the Avenger's set and the hand of Rags...1300 would be my white crits with only 20 or so in Ret. I haven't done ret in 70's but I would assume alot more AP is floating around along with much higher DPS weapons. So yeah, ret is going to out DPS holy. Armor mitigation doesn't do alot for mobs. More annoying with Prot warriors in PvP but you'll outlast them anyway.
So I know this isn't the crafting thread...But oh well. I'm Mining/Blacksmithing and I was thinking about going master hammersmith/swordsmith, but the only reason I would is because of the weapons associated with them. Is there a benefit for Paladins to go Armorsmith instead of weaponsmith?
Well, it's not completely useless, but pretty much. Armorsmithing BoP epics are built mainly for DPS warriors. It improves hit and crit rating. Yeah, it's got high sta, but so does Jade-Skull Breastplate, and that gives you defense and block rating. The +1500 health and +150 strength for 15 seconds Use: is on a 30-minute cooldown. On the up side, it DOES have three gem sockets.
On the other hand, I'm thinking of this from a tankadin perspective. If you're going Ret...then perhaps. Though you may get more use out of the weaponsmith 2H's that way.
So uhhhh... I've just finished up all the quests on the Draenei starting area, and am a level 20 Paladin. Where would be a good place to go now?
Redridge and then Duskwood. Duskwood will be especially nice since you'll have exorcism, and that little bit of extra damage will make hunting the undead go a bit faster. Not to mention tracking them.
But, if you don't wanna take the hike to IF and then SW; goto Ashenvale and then Wetlands. Good place for the 20s.
tehmarken on
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TTODewbackPuts the drawl in ya'llI think I'm in HellRegistered Userregular
edited May 2007
So, players have a problem with Retribution for the end game. Blizzard doesn't know what to do.
What don't they just start by changing Imp. Sanctity Aura from 1/2 to 3/5. That should indeed displace some QQ.
(((olololz I rhymed. P.S- Seriously, that would help out ret paladins in raids a hefty bit and I don't think it'd OP them)))
So here is my armory profile: Commando
I am currently specced for Prot and will most likely be keeping this spec from now on. I need some suggestions on obtainable gear, mainly for the bracers and boots. Gloves would be great as well. For the trinket I'm trying to get Adamantite Figurine from Shadow Labs but the thing never drops. I have 2 options for my shoulders, either keep what I have or use Spaulders of Dementia which I have sitting in the bank. Any other suggestions on heroic gear that I can get, or normal instance gear would be great.
Side Note: I don't have Dabri's Insignia or w/e since I was holy at the time and took Starcaller's pants instead which sucks.
_X_ on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
So here is my armory profile: Commando
I am currently specced for Prot and will most likely be keeping this spec from now on. I need some suggestions on obtainable gear, mainly for the bracers and boots. Gloves would be great as well. For the trinket I'm trying to get Adamantite Figurine from Shadow Labs but the thing never drops. I have 2 options for my shoulders, either keep what I have or use Spaulders of Dementia which I have sitting in the bank. Any other suggestions on heroic gear that I can get, or normal instance gear would be great.
Side Note: I don't have Dabri's Insignia or w/e since I was holy at the time and took Starcaller's pants instead which sucks.
Drop the Starcaller boots. Go to the AH and find yourself some "of the champion" boots. And you need at least five more defense for tanking five mans. Swap out some of the stamina gems for it.
So here is my armory profile: Commando
I am currently specced for Prot and will most likely be keeping this spec from now on. I need some suggestions on obtainable gear, mainly for the bracers and boots. Gloves would be great as well. For the trinket I'm trying to get Adamantite Figurine from Shadow Labs but the thing never drops. I have 2 options for my shoulders, either keep what I have or use Spaulders of Dementia which I have sitting in the bank. Any other suggestions on heroic gear that I can get, or normal instance gear would be great.
Side Note: I don't have Dabri's Insignia or w/e since I was holy at the time and took Starcaller's pants instead which sucks.
Drop the Starcaller boots. Go to the AH and find yourself some "of the champion" boots. And you need at least five more defense for tanking five mans. Swap out some of the stamina gems for it.
Actually, 485 defense is just enough for 5-mans. There are no level 73 mobs in 5-mans, only 72s (which also means no crushing blows, either).
Also, why strength enchant on the gloves? I'd also go with sta enchant on the bracers and +150 health on the chest.
I've decided against the stamina on the bracers since the ones I have are pretty crappy right now. Don't feel like dropping 60g on mats yet. I'm probably going to get Bracer of the Green Fortress made this week.
The Jade-Skull I just picked up a few days ago so I haven't put anything on it yet, would putting +6 to all stats be better than 150 health though? The extra intel and the bit of Agi adds some dodge.
I've tanked a bunch of trash in Karazhan with this gear as well, and adds on bosses. It hasn't failed yet.
_X_ on
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TTODewbackPuts the drawl in ya'llI think I'm in HellRegistered Userregular
Well, yeah, if you're getting Green Fortress made soon, definitely save the enchant for that. And consider the health enchant to be +15 sta. 6 spirit is insignificant, 6 strength gets you an extra 0.3 damage absorbed per block, 6 int is just more base mana (Spiritual Attunement makes it fairly unimportant) and an additional 0.075% spell crit, and 6 agi will give you 0.24% dodge.
So basically it's a tradeoff between 90 more health or 0.24% more dodge.
On what, a target with 0 armor? And at 69, my JOR crits for over 1500 and holy shock for 1400. This is with Crusader judged, but as holy this is pretty much on every single mob anyway.
I get those numbers with 875ish spell damage as a level 70 holy/prot paladin. Ret damage scales a lot better.
Fuck that. Seal of Vengeance is fucking worthless. It's awesome on paper, but I'm parsing a 60%+ resist rate on it.
Fuck. That.
60% resist rate, on what level mobs? Maybe that is why it is so hard to keep a 5 stack up consistantly. The Seal would be better if the judgment would refresh the stack.
I highly doubt there are special, class-specific resistance mechanics that exist purely to make a paladin's life harder.
Warriors, priests, and paladins at least have talents to reduce stun chance. Also many PvP trinkets were changed to remove stuns. Not that these were put into place to rain on the paladin parade.
Meddle, did you run any numbers with Consecration? I seem to get around 90% of my spell damage applied over the duration of Consecration. I think it was close to 93%.
Edit: By the way, Kai, how much spell damage do you have? Also, do you have Improved Seal of Crusader or Sanctity Aura?
Hammer resistances are just common, it's how it is. It used to be terrible when I was an Alliance Paladin but even with my Blood Elf it gets resisted or wiped often. Let's list the classes that can resist stuns:
Now, the only class mentioned that will most likely not have their stun resist are rogues, as it's deep in the combat tree and not many people PVP with heavy combat as a general rule. That aside, there are many classes that have stun resistance, it's just the way things are now. I tend to use it as an interrupt more than an extra heal/escape ability now since it's simply not reliable.
Also: WTF is up with the change to Imp. Concentration Aura? I was reading the tooltip a few days ago and realized they changed it. It's kind of crappy now, and wish I had placed my points into Imp. HoJ or Blessed Life instead.
On what, a target with 0 armor? And at 69, my JOR crits for over 1500 and holy shock for 1400. This is with Crusader judged, but as holy this is pretty much on every single mob anyway.
I get those numbers with 875ish spell damage as a level 70 holy/prot paladin. Ret damage scales a lot better.
Fuck that. Seal of Vengeance is fucking worthless. It's awesome on paper, but I'm parsing a 60%+ resist rate on it.
Fuck. That.
60% resist rate, on what level mobs? Maybe that is why it is so hard to keep a 5 stack up consistantly. The Seal would be better if the judgment would refresh the stack.
I highly doubt there are special, class-specific resistance mechanics that exist purely to make a paladin's life harder.
Warriors, priests, and paladins at least have talents to reduce stun chance. Also many PvP trinkets were changed to remove stuns. Not that these were put into place to rain on the paladin parade.
Meddle, did you run any numbers with Consecration? I seem to get around 90% of my spell damage applied over the duration of Consecration. I think it was close to 93%.
Edit: By the way, Kai, how much spell damage do you have? Also, do you have Improved Seal of Crusader or Sanctity Aura?
I haven't run the numbers, tbh, but it seems like it's hitting harder.
As far as SoV goes, it's like worthless on bosses. The problem is it can resist three ways: the tick can resist or partially resist, the application (proc) can resist, and the judgement can resist. Add all those together and it's like fuck me in the ass, I just blew 500 mana.
meddleRPI on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
On what, a target with 0 armor? And at 69, my JOR crits for over 1500 and holy shock for 1400. This is with Crusader judged, but as holy this is pretty much on every single mob anyway.
I get those numbers with 875ish spell damage as a level 70 holy/prot paladin. Ret damage scales a lot better.
Fuck that. Seal of Vengeance is fucking worthless. It's awesome on paper, but I'm parsing a 60%+ resist rate on it.
Fuck. That.
60% resist rate, on what level mobs? Maybe that is why it is so hard to keep a 5 stack up consistantly. The Seal would be better if the judgment would refresh the stack.
I highly doubt there are special, class-specific resistance mechanics that exist purely to make a paladin's life harder.
Warriors, priests, and paladins at least have talents to reduce stun chance. Also many PvP trinkets were changed to remove stuns. Not that these were put into place to rain on the paladin parade.
Meddle, did you run any numbers with Consecration? I seem to get around 90% of my spell damage applied over the duration of Consecration. I think it was close to 93%.
Edit: By the way, Kai, how much spell damage do you have? Also, do you have Improved Seal of Crusader or Sanctity Aura?
I haven't run the numbers, tbh, but it seems like it's hitting harder.
As far as SoV goes, it's like worthless on bosses. The problem is it can resist three ways: the tick can resist or partially resist, the application (proc) can resist, and the judgement can resist. Add all those together and it's like fuck me in the ass, I just blew 500 mana.
SoR's proc can be partially resisted.
SoR's Proc can be completely resisted.
JoR can be resisted.
The reason SoV sucks as a tanking tool is streak resists on the application combined with movement reducing chances to apply. It also has a slower threat curve than SoR/JoR, there are some ways around this but it still starts out with a lower TPS then SoR/JoR will. When you look at the slower start on the threat curve, and combine that with the fact that SoR will generate more TPS during the periods in which your stack of SoV falls off, it's just not a very strong tanking tool.
That is not the same as it being useless. Bosses with frequent aggro resets (Gehenas) are much easier to tank if a dot can be put on them by the tank. It helps rebuild some of the lost threat, as well as giving inital aggro. But it's like the jeweler's screwdriver set of the Paladin tanking kit. When you need it, you'll love it but you won't need it as often as a good normal screwdriver.
SoR's proc can be partially resisted.
SoR's Proc can be completely resisted.
JoR can be resisted.
Whilst this is true, I do not parse NEARLY the resist rate on SoR.
It's a little-known fact that all pre-TBC paladin skills are completely fucking broken, as they have no idea how to process our damage in a consistent manner. For example, Judgement of Command crits for 100% bonus damage, not 50% bonus damage. This is inconsistent with other spell critical modifiers. SoV probably factors in the proper resistance rate for, say, frostbolt, but because a damage cycle on S/JoV is essentially three spells, we're seeing a perceived triple resistance rate (even though the resistance is "working as intended").
Paladins are broken, but not necessarily in a bad way. We just suffer inconsistent game mechanics.
Warriors, priests, and paladins at least have talents to reduce stun chance. Also many PvP trinkets were changed to remove stuns. Not that these were put into place to rain on the paladin parade.
Yeah, but it's still a ridiculous claim to say that paladin spells are resisted more frequently than every other class' spells just because HoJ can be resisted due to a few talents or orcs having thick skulls.
Talents and racial abilities does not equate to paladin spells using different resistance mechanics.
So my Paladin is now getting pretty close to level 70, what exactly should I be aiming for pre-Kara? The recolored Judgement healing 'set'? Or should I just try to amass the best blues/purps for healing and hope for the best? I was thinking I should have somewhere along 900-1000 +healing and 150-200 MP/5 would be enough.
SoR's proc can be partially resisted.
SoR's Proc can be completely resisted.
JoR can be resisted.
Whilst this is true, I do not parse NEARLY the resist rate on SoR.
It's a little-known fact that all pre-TBC paladin skills are completely fucking broken, as they have no idea how to process our damage in a consistent manner. For example, Judgement of Command crits for 100% bonus damage, not 50% bonus damage. This is inconsistent with other spell critical modifiers. SoV probably factors in the proper resistance rate for, say, frostbolt, but because a damage cycle on S/JoV is essentially three spells, we're seeing a perceived triple resistance rate (even though the resistance is "working as intended").
Paladins are broken, but not necessarily in a bad way. We just suffer inconsistent game mechanics.
You are aware that SoV is chance to proc rather then an always proc like SoR? Because I'm not showing anywhere near a 60% resist rate. If it had a 60% resist rate then you would never get a five stack up given that it is a chance to proc.
And it's not a little known fact about our skills. JoC get's it crit percentage because the Seal scales from physical stats. Your AP and crit affect the strength of your SoC attacks, with JoC being like a melee hit that does flat damage. The Ret tree has always been more of a physical tree and less of a caster tree.
The base resist rate for an even level mob is 4%. There is no way to stretch that anywhere near 60% for the three parts combined. I would be curious to see your proof.
So my Paladin is now getting pretty close to level 70, what exactly should I be aiming for pre-Kara? The recolored Judgement healing 'set'? Or should I just try to amass the best blues/purps for healing and hope for the best? I was thinking I should have somewhere along 900-1000 +healing and 150-200 MP/5 would be enough.
Pre-Kara for a healadin, yeah. The three recolored Judgement pieces you can get from non-heroics are among the best blues for that. Crafted epics are good, too.
SoR's proc can be partially resisted.
SoR's Proc can be completely resisted.
JoR can be resisted.
Whilst this is true, I do not parse NEARLY the resist rate on SoR.
It's a little-known fact that all pre-TBC paladin skills are completely fucking broken, as they have no idea how to process our damage in a consistent manner. For example, Judgement of Command crits for 100% bonus damage, not 50% bonus damage. This is inconsistent with other spell critical modifiers. SoV probably factors in the proper resistance rate for, say, frostbolt, but because a damage cycle on S/JoV is essentially three spells, we're seeing a perceived triple resistance rate (even though the resistance is "working as intended").
Paladins are broken, but not necessarily in a bad way. We just suffer inconsistent game mechanics.
You are aware that SoV is chance to proc rather then an always proc like SoR? Because I'm not showing anywhere near a 60% resist rate. If it had a 60% resist rate then you would never get a five stack up given that it is a chance to proc.
And it's not a little known fact about our skills. JoC get's it crit percentage because the Seal scales from physical stats. Your AP and crit affect the strength of your SoC attacks, with JoC being like a melee hit that does flat damage. The Ret tree has always been more of a physical tree and less of a caster tree.
The base resist rate for an even level mob is 4%. There is no way to stretch that anywhere near 60% for the three parts combined. I would be curious to see your proof.
Well I'm talking bosses mainly. So that goes up. And I've got Recap parsing 11% on the tick on Magtheridon tonight, unfortunately it doesn't parse the proc portion. Also it's not taking into account partial resists =(.
The patch killed the mod I used to count these, I forget what it's called. Recap does pretty good. I don't know if I'm still getting the 60% I used to see on Gruul, but it's still way too fucking high for my likes.
EDIT: What I'm getting at here is that with a 20 PPM coefficient the 5 stack should always be up with a 1.6 second weapon. Like it should stack and stay. But it doesn't because of a high resist rate. The SoV damage cycle, which is what I'm talking about, is a long cycle and I'm talking about getting SOME kind of resist in an 8-20 second cycle, depending on whether your judge spamming or letting the debuff stack.
SoR is my staple seal for tanking. SoV is nice for offtanking, but god damn if I don't wear spellhit for it.
Lastly, SoC is the only spell in the game that can be Dodged, Blocked, Parried, Missed and Resisted. That's kinda broken.
SoR's proc can be partially resisted.
SoR's Proc can be completely resisted.
JoR can be resisted.
Whilst this is true, I do not parse NEARLY the resist rate on SoR.
It's a little-known fact that all pre-TBC paladin skills are completely fucking broken, as they have no idea how to process our damage in a consistent manner. For example, Judgement of Command crits for 100% bonus damage, not 50% bonus damage. This is inconsistent with other spell critical modifiers. SoV probably factors in the proper resistance rate for, say, frostbolt, but because a damage cycle on S/JoV is essentially three spells, we're seeing a perceived triple resistance rate (even though the resistance is "working as intended").
Paladins are broken, but not necessarily in a bad way. We just suffer inconsistent game mechanics.
You are aware that SoV is chance to proc rather then an always proc like SoR? Because I'm not showing anywhere near a 60% resist rate. If it had a 60% resist rate then you would never get a five stack up given that it is a chance to proc.
And it's not a little known fact about our skills. JoC get's it crit percentage because the Seal scales from physical stats. Your AP and crit affect the strength of your SoC attacks, with JoC being like a melee hit that does flat damage. The Ret tree has always been more of a physical tree and less of a caster tree.
The base resist rate for an even level mob is 4%. There is no way to stretch that anywhere near 60% for the three parts combined. I would be curious to see your proof.
Well I'm talking bosses mainly. So that goes up. And I've got Recap parsing 11% on the tick on Magtheridon tonight, unfortunately it doesn't parse the proc portion. Also it's not taking into account partial resists =(.
The patch killed the mod I used to count these, I forget what it's called. Recap does pretty good. I don't know if I'm still getting the 60% I used to see on Gruul, but it's still way too fucking high for my likes.
EDIT: What I'm getting at here is that with a 20 PPM coefficient the 5 stack should always be up with a 1.6 second weapon. Like it should stack and stay. But it doesn't because of a high resist rate. The SoV damage cycle, which is what I'm talking about, is a long cycle and I'm talking about getting SOME kind of resist in an 8-20 second cycle, depending on whether your judge spamming or letting the debuff stack.
SoR is my staple seal for tanking. SoV is nice for offtanking, but god damn if I don't wear spellhit for it.
Lastly, SoC is the only spell in the game that can be Dodged, Blocked, Parried, Missed and Resisted. That's kinda broken.
Given that Gruul has shatter, a knockback effect, it makes no sense to try to keep SoV stacks up on him. But I'm willing to belive that the silence Gruul does is affecting SoV procs. But you would expect to see a higher resist rate on bosses. That doesn't make SoV differant then any of our other spells. Bosses have a higher resist rate to magic then other mobs. They also have higher mitigation for physical attacks. You seem to think that SoV should be immune to this.
And SoC is ment to be a damage ability that scales with Physical attributes and spell damage. The same with SoB. Which also scales with physical damage and can be dodge/parried/blocked and resisted as well. Which would consistant with the idea that they are both Melee strikes rather then "real spells". Those are the only two spells that effected that way. That doesn't mean that all pre-TBC Paladin spells are wanky. It means that SoC is wanky. All of the rest of our spells behave in the normal range.
Thomamelas on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
If you're going to try to tank the end game content (which, from your talent build, seems to be the case) mitigation is more important than threat generation. Toughness, although it seems like it's not doing much, is pretty important for mitigation, as is Shield Specialization. Imp SoR is better now that it's applied after spell damage, but you'll be better off with more points in prot/ret for mitigation since points in divine str/int end up being a 5 point sink into nothing particularly useful.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sVVZVGzuMhzgtqzV0x would probably be better for you. If your gear allows it, you can take 5 points out of anticipation and put them wherever you wish, but having that gives you a bit more leniency in gear choice (and we need a lot of things from our gear).
Of course, this build allows you to do nothing but tank. You're pretty worthless otherwise.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited May 2007
I know.
I'm considering playing briefly, but only to tank. And you relinked my build.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Unless you're planning on heavy PvP there are a number of tweaks I'd make. Drop Stoicism. Mobs don't really purge you that often. Those points should go into spell warding. It stacks with RF and can be a life saver. Improved hammer of Justice is actually going to work against you. You want the mobs hitting you. HS is a ton of threat and things that stop it from working hurt you badly.
If you really want to keep improved SoR, then I would look at this build.
The extra defense is really, really useful untill you get to the uncrushable cap. Then I might start moving points away from it. AD is of debatable use. Awesome in five mans, leap frogged in raids.
Given that Gruul has shatter, a knockback effect, it makes no sense to try to keep SoV stacks up on him. But I'm willing to belive that the silence Gruul does is affecting SoV procs. But you would expect to see a higher resist rate on bosses. That doesn't make SoV differant then any of our other spells. Bosses have a higher resist rate to magic then other mobs. They also have higher mitigation for physical attacks. You seem to think that SoV should be immune to this.
And SoC is ment to be a damage ability that scales with Physical attributes and spell damage. The same with SoB. Which also scales with physical damage and can be dodge/parried/blocked and resisted as well. Which would consistant with the idea that they are both Melee strikes rather then "real spells". Those are the only two spells that effected that way. That doesn't mean that all pre-TBC Paladin spells are wanky. It means that SoC is wanky. All of the rest of our spells behave in the normal range.
The purpose to keeping SoV on Gruul is to get easy damage out of all of the paladins, particularly during the first 6 grows, on a damage sensitive fight. It's not a ton of damage, but it's cheap damage, and doing 100k damage over a fight > doing 0 damage over a fight.
meddleRPI on
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Lord DaveGrief CauserBitch Free ZoneRegistered Userregular
edited May 2007
Has anybody seen "of the Knight" gear floating around?
I've only ever seen that suffix on the random plate pants that Terokk drops. Is it a new suffix with 2.10 that's going to start showing up everywhere? I want more.
Given that Gruul has shatter, a knockback effect, it makes no sense to try to keep SoV stacks up on him. But I'm willing to belive that the silence Gruul does is affecting SoV procs. But you would expect to see a higher resist rate on bosses. That doesn't make SoV differant then any of our other spells. Bosses have a higher resist rate to magic then other mobs. They also have higher mitigation for physical attacks. You seem to think that SoV should be immune to this.
And SoC is ment to be a damage ability that scales with Physical attributes and spell damage. The same with SoB. Which also scales with physical damage and can be dodge/parried/blocked and resisted as well. Which would consistant with the idea that they are both Melee strikes rather then "real spells". Those are the only two spells that effected that way. That doesn't mean that all pre-TBC Paladin spells are wanky. It means that SoC is wanky. All of the rest of our spells behave in the normal range.
The purpose to keeping SoV on Gruul is to get easy damage out of all of the paladins, particularly during the first 6 grows, on a damage sensitive fight. It's not a ton of damage, but it's cheap damage, and doing 100k damage over a fight > doing 0 damage over a fight.
As opposed to keeping JoL or JoW up? Unless you're bringing a ret paladin that's not a great use of judgement. Giving the melee dps a form a healing can be the differance between them lasting till the pot is back up or not. JoW will keep your hunters in the fight much longer, along with mages and other casters. It just seems like a waste of a judgement if all of your paladins are spamming it.
So should I be tanking exclusively with Blessing of Sanc? Because, at least in the context of SM, I'm running out of mana often because I'm not getting much time outside of the five-second rule to regen, and because I don't require much healing, so no Spiritual Attunement mana, or very little.
EDIT: What I mean is, is it worthwhile / advisable to try tanking with Blessing of Kings on myself instead? Possibly even BoW?
As opposed to keeping JoL or JoW up? Unless you're bringing a ret paladin that's not a great use of judgement. Giving the melee dps a form a healing can be the differance between them lasting till the pot is back up or not. JoW will keep your hunters in the fight much longer, along with mages and other casters. It just seems like a waste of a judgement if all of your paladins are spamming it.
I'm only talking the first 6 grows here, because Gruul hits like a wet noodle during this period. The SoV paladin can keep JoW up, and the JoL can easily be kept up by a paladin who just goes in and melees every 5 seconds or so. After grow 6, you should be at 40% to stay on target for an easy kill, and like I said, if you can squeeze 6% out of your paladins, you by all means should. Even if you get to say, 42%, the difference between 42% and 48% is huge.
Posts
On what, a target with 0 armor? And at 69, my JOR crits for over 1500 and holy shock for 1400. This is with Crusader judged, but as holy this is pretty much on every single mob anyway.
Well, when I respecced Ret with poor gear (1050 AP, and Thunder as my weapon), I'd crit Lts. in AV for 1500 with AV wrath up, and clothies for 2k. I've seen Judgements of Command for 2.5k. Thats with ~330 spell power.
In my holy gear I have 450 spell power,and JoR crits for about 850.
Um...in the 60's with the Avenger's set and the hand of Rags...1300 would be my white crits with only 20 or so in Ret. I haven't done ret in 70's but I would assume alot more AP is floating around along with much higher DPS weapons. So yeah, ret is going to out DPS holy. Armor mitigation doesn't do alot for mobs. More annoying with Prot warriors in PvP but you'll outlast them anyway.
XBL
On the other hand, I'm thinking of this from a tankadin perspective. If you're going Ret...then perhaps. Though you may get more use out of the weaponsmith 2H's that way.
Redridge and then Duskwood. Duskwood will be especially nice since you'll have exorcism, and that little bit of extra damage will make hunting the undead go a bit faster. Not to mention tracking them.
But, if you don't wanna take the hike to IF and then SW; goto Ashenvale and then Wetlands. Good place for the 20s.
What don't they just start by changing Imp. Sanctity Aura from 1/2 to 3/5. That should indeed displace some QQ.
(((olololz I rhymed. P.S- Seriously, that would help out ret paladins in raids a hefty bit and I don't think it'd OP them)))
I am currently specced for Prot and will most likely be keeping this spec from now on. I need some suggestions on obtainable gear, mainly for the bracers and boots. Gloves would be great as well. For the trinket I'm trying to get Adamantite Figurine from Shadow Labs but the thing never drops. I have 2 options for my shoulders, either keep what I have or use Spaulders of Dementia which I have sitting in the bank. Any other suggestions on heroic gear that I can get, or normal instance gear would be great.
Side Note: I don't have Dabri's Insignia or w/e since I was holy at the time and took Starcaller's pants instead which sucks.
Drop the Starcaller boots. Go to the AH and find yourself some "of the champion" boots. And you need at least five more defense for tanking five mans. Swap out some of the stamina gems for it.
Actually, 485 defense is just enough for 5-mans. There are no level 73 mobs in 5-mans, only 72s (which also means no crushing blows, either).
Also, why strength enchant on the gloves? I'd also go with sta enchant on the bracers and +150 health on the chest.
The Jade-Skull I just picked up a few days ago so I haven't put anything on it yet, would putting +6 to all stats be better than 150 health though? The extra intel and the bit of Agi adds some dodge.
I've tanked a bunch of trash in Karazhan with this gear as well, and adds on bosses. It hasn't failed yet.
In case your confused about gear.
So basically it's a tradeoff between 90 more health or 0.24% more dodge.
I get those numbers with 875ish spell damage as a level 70 holy/prot paladin. Ret damage scales a lot better.
60% resist rate, on what level mobs? Maybe that is why it is so hard to keep a 5 stack up consistantly. The Seal would be better if the judgment would refresh the stack.
Warriors, priests, and paladins at least have talents to reduce stun chance. Also many PvP trinkets were changed to remove stuns. Not that these were put into place to rain on the paladin parade.
Meddle, did you run any numbers with Consecration? I seem to get around 90% of my spell damage applied over the duration of Consecration. I think it was close to 93%.
Edit: By the way, Kai, how much spell damage do you have? Also, do you have Improved Seal of Crusader or Sanctity Aura?
Priest: 15%
Warrior: 15%
Paladin: 10%
Druid: 15%
Rogues: 10%
Now, the only class mentioned that will most likely not have their stun resist are rogues, as it's deep in the combat tree and not many people PVP with heavy combat as a general rule. That aside, there are many classes that have stun resistance, it's just the way things are now. I tend to use it as an interrupt more than an extra heal/escape ability now since it's simply not reliable.
Also: WTF is up with the change to Imp. Concentration Aura? I was reading the tooltip a few days ago and realized they changed it. It's kind of crappy now, and wish I had placed my points into Imp. HoJ or Blessed Life instead.
Ghalan - Tauren Druid
I haven't run the numbers, tbh, but it seems like it's hitting harder.
As far as SoV goes, it's like worthless on bosses. The problem is it can resist three ways: the tick can resist or partially resist, the application (proc) can resist, and the judgement can resist. Add all those together and it's like fuck me in the ass, I just blew 500 mana.
SoR's proc can be partially resisted.
SoR's Proc can be completely resisted.
JoR can be resisted.
The reason SoV sucks as a tanking tool is streak resists on the application combined with movement reducing chances to apply. It also has a slower threat curve than SoR/JoR, there are some ways around this but it still starts out with a lower TPS then SoR/JoR will. When you look at the slower start on the threat curve, and combine that with the fact that SoR will generate more TPS during the periods in which your stack of SoV falls off, it's just not a very strong tanking tool.
That is not the same as it being useless. Bosses with frequent aggro resets (Gehenas) are much easier to tank if a dot can be put on them by the tank. It helps rebuild some of the lost threat, as well as giving inital aggro. But it's like the jeweler's screwdriver set of the Paladin tanking kit. When you need it, you'll love it but you won't need it as often as a good normal screwdriver.
Whilst this is true, I do not parse NEARLY the resist rate on SoR.
It's a little-known fact that all pre-TBC paladin skills are completely fucking broken, as they have no idea how to process our damage in a consistent manner. For example, Judgement of Command crits for 100% bonus damage, not 50% bonus damage. This is inconsistent with other spell critical modifiers. SoV probably factors in the proper resistance rate for, say, frostbolt, but because a damage cycle on S/JoV is essentially three spells, we're seeing a perceived triple resistance rate (even though the resistance is "working as intended").
Paladins are broken, but not necessarily in a bad way. We just suffer inconsistent game mechanics.
Yeah, but it's still a ridiculous claim to say that paladin spells are resisted more frequently than every other class' spells just because HoJ can be resisted due to a few talents or orcs having thick skulls.
Talents and racial abilities does not equate to paladin spells using different resistance mechanics.
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You are aware that SoV is chance to proc rather then an always proc like SoR? Because I'm not showing anywhere near a 60% resist rate. If it had a 60% resist rate then you would never get a five stack up given that it is a chance to proc.
And it's not a little known fact about our skills. JoC get's it crit percentage because the Seal scales from physical stats. Your AP and crit affect the strength of your SoC attacks, with JoC being like a melee hit that does flat damage. The Ret tree has always been more of a physical tree and less of a caster tree.
The base resist rate for an even level mob is 4%. There is no way to stretch that anywhere near 60% for the three parts combined. I would be curious to see your proof.
Well I'm talking bosses mainly. So that goes up. And I've got Recap parsing 11% on the tick on Magtheridon tonight, unfortunately it doesn't parse the proc portion. Also it's not taking into account partial resists =(.
The patch killed the mod I used to count these, I forget what it's called. Recap does pretty good. I don't know if I'm still getting the 60% I used to see on Gruul, but it's still way too fucking high for my likes.
EDIT: What I'm getting at here is that with a 20 PPM coefficient the 5 stack should always be up with a 1.6 second weapon. Like it should stack and stay. But it doesn't because of a high resist rate. The SoV damage cycle, which is what I'm talking about, is a long cycle and I'm talking about getting SOME kind of resist in an 8-20 second cycle, depending on whether your judge spamming or letting the debuff stack.
SoR is my staple seal for tanking. SoV is nice for offtanking, but god damn if I don't wear spellhit for it.
Lastly, SoC is the only spell in the game that can be Dodged, Blocked, Parried, Missed and Resisted. That's kinda broken.
bam, SoV is fixed
Given that Gruul has shatter, a knockback effect, it makes no sense to try to keep SoV stacks up on him. But I'm willing to belive that the silence Gruul does is affecting SoV procs. But you would expect to see a higher resist rate on bosses. That doesn't make SoV differant then any of our other spells. Bosses have a higher resist rate to magic then other mobs. They also have higher mitigation for physical attacks. You seem to think that SoV should be immune to this.
And SoC is ment to be a damage ability that scales with Physical attributes and spell damage. The same with SoB. Which also scales with physical damage and can be dodge/parried/blocked and resisted as well. Which would consistant with the idea that they are both Melee strikes rather then "real spells". Those are the only two spells that effected that way. That doesn't mean that all pre-TBC Paladin spells are wanky. It means that SoC is wanky. All of the rest of our spells behave in the normal range.
If you're going to try to tank the end game content (which, from your talent build, seems to be the case) mitigation is more important than threat generation. Toughness, although it seems like it's not doing much, is pretty important for mitigation, as is Shield Specialization. Imp SoR is better now that it's applied after spell damage, but you'll be better off with more points in prot/ret for mitigation since points in divine str/int end up being a 5 point sink into nothing particularly useful.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sVVZVGzuMhzgtqzV0x would probably be better for you. If your gear allows it, you can take 5 points out of anticipation and put them wherever you wish, but having that gives you a bit more leniency in gear choice (and we need a lot of things from our gear).
Of course, this build allows you to do nothing but tank. You're pretty worthless otherwise.
Ghalan - Tauren Druid
I'm considering playing briefly, but only to tank. And you relinked my build.
Unless you're planning on heavy PvP there are a number of tweaks I'd make. Drop Stoicism. Mobs don't really purge you that often. Those points should go into spell warding. It stacks with RF and can be a life saver. Improved hammer of Justice is actually going to work against you. You want the mobs hitting you. HS is a ton of threat and things that stop it from working hurt you badly.
If you really want to keep improved SoR, then I would look at this build.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sVVZVhtI00dggRzV0x
Or
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=aVVZVhtIb0dggozV0x
The extra defense is really, really useful untill you get to the uncrushable cap. Then I might start moving points away from it. AD is of debatable use. Awesome in five mans, leap frogged in raids.
The purpose to keeping SoV on Gruul is to get easy damage out of all of the paladins, particularly during the first 6 grows, on a damage sensitive fight. It's not a ton of damage, but it's cheap damage, and doing 100k damage over a fight > doing 0 damage over a fight.
I've only ever seen that suffix on the random plate pants that Terokk drops. Is it a new suffix with 2.10 that's going to start showing up everywhere? I want more.
As opposed to keeping JoL or JoW up? Unless you're bringing a ret paladin that's not a great use of judgement. Giving the melee dps a form a healing can be the differance between them lasting till the pot is back up or not. JoW will keep your hunters in the fight much longer, along with mages and other casters. It just seems like a waste of a judgement if all of your paladins are spamming it.
As can any caster. It won't proc off of dots but it can proc off of channeled spells.
Which is nice for healing priests when they get some time to pew pew.
EDIT: What I mean is, is it worthwhile / advisable to try tanking with Blessing of Kings on myself instead? Possibly even BoW?
I'm only talking the first 6 grows here, because Gruul hits like a wet noodle during this period. The SoV paladin can keep JoW up, and the JoL can easily be kept up by a paladin who just goes in and melees every 5 seconds or so. After grow 6, you should be at 40% to stay on target for an easy kill, and like I said, if you can squeeze 6% out of your paladins, you by all means should. Even if you get to say, 42%, the difference between 42% and 48% is huge.