Well, I went home on my lunch and put in a petition, they are going to go ahead and swap out the illidari talisman for the defender one, YAY!
Thanks for all the advice everyone, it was a huge help in clearing up a lot of my confusion.
One more question, why do I see so many Paladin's with spell warding? It seems like kind of a waste of 2 points, but I see the vast majority of tankadins with it.
At the raiding level we crave mitigation. Any mitigation is good. For the five man level it's meh.
I ran Slave Pens + Underbog last night and did amazingly [well, by my reckoning...] on the entire instance... except for the boss fights. We wound up downing everything except for The Black Stalker, on whom we had to switch to the Feral druid tanking because I just didn't have enough stamina. He also had about 3k more armor than me. I know, I know -- druids are made for stamina and armor. Even still, his having about 3k more health than me is offputting.
Truth be told, I think we found out it was more the Static Charge debuff [AoE damage of ~700-800 every 3 seconds to your party when you've got it] that was killing us, but my point still stands: needs more HPs.
This is my dood; in case Armory links still don't work, he's Gerlock, on Dark Iron.
Hamurabi on
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited October 2007
I specced my paladin prot because blizzards choice in BOL nerfage angers me. I did steamvaults. Now my tanking gear is a mix of awesome kara loot and econo AH blues, but I still manage unenchanted 475 def, and 10700 hps. But the thing that made it trivial was the 400+ block value. Trash didnt really hurt me. Bosses were also pretty damned easy too.
I would be a bit scared on heroics, but with a good Main Healer I would be ok. My gear has alot of spelldamage though, 380 because of an arena spelldamage mace and a few spelldamage peices where I have no tanking peices.
Oh btw this is me in case you want to comment on my half assed protadining.
Kai_San on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
You need heals for mana regen, and if you're taking no damage you're not getting heals, and that means even if you kill the mobs pretty fast you'll have to sit and drink a lot which is just annoying for everyone.
Can you explain this? I don't play a paladin but I'm thinking of rolling one, how does that happen?
paladins have a base skill (can't remember what level you get it, 60 at the latest) that regens mana for I think 10% of the heals you receive (that aren't your own). It used to be that it was a straight regen but they nerfed it a few patches ago to only regen mana for the heals that fill you up, not overhealing.
So if you get healed for 100 you get 10 mana. If you get healed for 5000 you get 500 mana.
Great right?
Well mobs and bosses in 5man and heroics really don't hit that hard. I know this isn't true for all heroics, some hit really hard, but in general not so much. If you load up on mitigation and avoidance you'll take very little damage so when you're healed the heals (minus the overhealing) will be for very little; however you'll be using a ton of mana to hold aggro and dps. The end result is that you receive very little mana regen this way and have to drink a lot. Whereas if you just took more damage you'd get bigger heals (this doesn't mean the healer is working much harder; they're healing one way or another, you're just getting more benefit from the heals) and thus more mana returned drastically reducing or even removing downtime on your behalf between fights.
This doesn't follow for raids however because of how hard bosses hit you HAVE to have high levels of mitigation and avoidance even to survive base hits. You will be getting large heals and you will be getting full benefit of these heals 99% of the time anyway, so mana regen isn't usually an issue.
I know it seems a little funny to think "ok, I need to downgrade my gear here" but it's the case. That link I posted a few of my posts back break up in good order what gear is good for 5 mans and what is good for raids, based on this ideology.
it's generally good to have 2 sets of armor, one full of straight up sta/def/avoidance and one with sta/int/def/spelldamage. Sometimes you'll run a heroic where bosses hit especially hard and you can throw on your "raid" set. Then when you go run a buddy through BM or something, give your spell damage tank set a go and you'll make your part of the run much smoother.
EDIT: Don't misunderstand and get gimpy gear just to take more damage. That wasn't my point. You still want mitigation and avoidance. Uncrushable outside of raids is totally unnecessary for a pally tank. Just have enough to do your job and not make the healers blow their load every fight.
paladins have a base skill (can't remember what level you get it, 60 at the latest) that regens mana for I think 10% of the heals you receive (that aren't your own).
Spiritual Attunement, rank 1 is at level 18 and gives you 8% of the heal in mana. Rank 2 is at 66 and gives you 10%.
Reminds me of the warriors that had to tank with no pants on to generate rage in MC because their gear was too good and they weren't taking enough damage.
paladins have a base skill (can't remember what level you get it, 60 at the latest) that regens mana for I think 10% of the heals you receive (that aren't your own).
Spiritual Attunement, rank 1 is at level 18 and gives you 8% of the heal in mana. Rank 2 is at 66 and gives you 10%.
yeah that's it. I was 60 when that patch came out so I didn't pay attention to the level it was learned.
I know it seems a little funny to think "ok, I need to downgrade my gear here" but it's the case.
Yeah, but it's more fun to think "ok, I need to grab 6 or 7 more mobs here".
Heh. Maybe in a guild run sure. But in a PUG the healer would shit themselves.
It's hard for people to let go of the notion of CC and limiting the amount of enemies you fight at a time. I drive mages nuts breaking their sheep. They get pissy and no matter how many times I try to explain the concept of pally tanking they just don't get it. Same with like BM. If I'm tanking I don't need you to be on adds. The run will go much quicker if you focus all dps on the portal lord.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited October 2007
Hell, I would welcome the opportunity for a paladin tank. I hate sheeping. Every time a mob gets downed I have to switch back to my sheep and resheep it.
I specced my paladin prot because blizzards choice in BOL nerfage angers me. I did steamvaults. Now my tanking gear is a mix of awesome kara loot and econo AH blues, but I still manage unenchanted 475 def, and 10700 hps. But the thing that made it trivial was the 400+ block value. Trash didnt really hurt me. Bosses were also pretty damned easy too.
I would be a bit scared on heroics, but with a good Main Healer I would be ok. My gear has alot of spelldamage though, 380 because of an arena spelldamage mace and a few spelldamage peices where I have no tanking peices.
Oh btw this is me in case you want to comment on my half assed protadining.
You're a good 15% away from uncrushable. Ye GODS.
Block value is yummy...if you have block chance to back it up. That 16% be weak. Buy a Crystalforged Sword off the AH. Of course, you actually need that Resilience to be uncrittable, which is depressing.
I'm sure I wasn't in much better doing Slave Pens on Heroic, but you won't be able to do fun things like make Rinder cry as you pull withou CC in Mana Crypts.
Tanking mid-60's instances as Prot is so stupid-easy.
Now if I could just find better stam on gear that also has intellect and +dmg...
Okay, so my Prot Paladin is 61 now, and I feel like I have no idea what the hell I am doing. I understand the whole tanking concept in itself, but there are a lot of things I really have no idea about. So maybe my questions will be answered better with a straight up paladin guide link for retards or something, but here they are:
Most of these questions stem from never playing a casting class.
+spell damage: What the hell is it, why would I want it as a tanking paladin? What spells are affected by it that relate to my spec?
Tanking gear: What stats should I be looking for in what order of importance? Stam first? Spell Damage first? Intellect? I honestly have no fucking clue when looking at a piece of armor what to look for. Is there a difference between the gear I should be tanking with and the gear I should be exp grinding with?
+spell crit: same as the first question, what is it and why do I care about it other than crit heals which I won't really be using as a paladin tank?
Finally in HFP I took this trinket over this one at the suggestion from a guildie. Was this a huge mistake? Oh and the Paladin link under my Sig goes to my armory.
In order:
+spell damage adds points of damage to your spells. Differant spells get differant benfits from it but all except SoL/JoL and SoW/JoW benfit from it. It's not a primary stat to look for but it's also not one to bitch is on your gear.
Gear: It depends on what you want to do. Tank five mans? 480 defense and go for stamina. Kara? Uncrushablity, 102.4 mitigation and stamina.
+spell crit: Makes JoR better. Not worth it for Protadins. And your guildie is an idiot. It's not a "OMG Call a GM" error but you chose wrong.
I thought there were better trinkets for Protadins later on? You certainly don't need it to tank 5 mans, and by the time you're doing serious tanking you'll be getting better trinkets anyway. This is one of the better spell damage trinkets available, I think, for a Paladin especially. I mean, it's not good for tanking, don't get me wrong, but for the long run I think the Regal trinket's probably the weakest choice of the three.
paladins have a base skill (can't remember what level you get it, 60 at the latest) that regens mana for I think 10% of the heals you receive (that aren't your own). It used to be that it was a straight regen but they nerfed it a few patches ago to only regen mana for the heals that fill you up, not overhealing.
So if you get healed for 100 you get 10 mana. If you get healed for 5000 you get 500 mana.
Great right?
Well mobs and bosses in 5man and heroics really don't hit that hard. I know this isn't true for all heroics, some hit really hard, but in general not so much. If you load up on mitigation and avoidance you'll take very little damage so when you're healed the heals (minus the overhealing) will be for very little; however you'll be using a ton of mana to hold aggro and dps. The end result is that you receive very little mana regen this way and have to drink a lot. Whereas if you just took more damage you'd get bigger heals (this doesn't mean the healer is working much harder; they're healing one way or another, you're just getting more benefit from the heals) and thus more mana returned drastically reducing or even removing downtime on your behalf between fights.
This doesn't follow for raids however because of how hard bosses hit you HAVE to have high levels of mitigation and avoidance even to survive base hits. You will be getting large heals and you will be getting full benefit of these heals 99% of the time anyway, so mana regen isn't usually an issue.
I know it seems a little funny to think "ok, I need to downgrade my gear here" but it's the case. That link I posted a few of my posts back break up in good order what gear is good for 5 mans and what is good for raids, based on this ideology.
it's generally good to have 2 sets of armor, one full of straight up sta/def/avoidance and one with sta/int/def/spelldamage. Sometimes you'll run a heroic where bosses hit especially hard and you can throw on your "raid" set. Then when you go run a buddy through BM or something, give your spell damage tank set a go and you'll make your part of the run much smoother.
EDIT: Don't misunderstand and get gimpy gear just to take more damage. That wasn't my point. You still want mitigation and avoidance. Uncrushable outside of raids is totally unnecessary for a pally tank. Just have enough to do your job and not make the healers blow their load every fight.
Other tanks basically have to do the same thing. I put on 2-4 pieces of DPS gear over my tanking gear on my druid in normal instances, because otherwise I have rage issues. 32kish armor and 36ish dodge before buffs tends to limit my extra mauls and lacerate spam. I love pally tanks in any case.
I went and got it swapped by a GM last night, so no going back. I'm pretty happy with the protectorate though, I need all the +def I can get at this point.
Edit,
Oh hey, quick question. Is ALL of scholo soloable at 70 with a pally? I've always wanted to go in alone and take down Baron all by myself, just to say I did it.
I went and got it swapped by a GM last night, so no going back. I'm pretty happy with the protectorate though, I need all the +def I can get at this point.
Edit,
Oh hey, quick question. Is ALL of scholo soloable at 70 with a pally? I've always wanted to go in alone and take down Baron all by myself, just to say I did it.
I used the protectorate for quite a while into 70 iirc.
Has any prot pally dual tanked the bog lords right before the first boss in heroic UB?
Some guy in my party said, "I don't think this tank can dual tank these." I wondered if any tank could.
The armory is down, but I'm sitting around 10.7k hp, 4.7k mp, 503 def, 12.6k armor and ~50% base avoidance (without redoubt & holy shield up). Here's the link anyways.
Frigging insane pull.
Shmoepong on
I don't think I could take a class without sparring. That would be like a class without techniques. Sparring has value not only as an important (necessary) step in applying your techniques to fighting, but also because it provides a rush and feeling of elation, confidence, and joyful exhaustion that can only be matched by ... oh shit, I am describing sex again. Sorry everyone. - Epicurus
Has any prot pally dual tanked the bog lords right before the first boss in heroic UB?
Some guy in my party said, "I don't think this tank can dual tank these." I wondered if any tank could.
The armory is down, but I'm sitting around 10.7k hp, 4.7k mp, 503 def, 12.6k armor and ~50% base avoidance (without redoubt & holy shield up). Here's the link anyways.
Frigging insane pull.
Actually yes, I have. I was in near full kara gear at the time though.
After further discussion and testing we've decided to add threat reduction deep in the paladin's retribution tree. Fanaticism will now reduce threat caused by all actions by 6/12/18/24/30%, in addition to its current effect.
Retribution paladins will now be able to safely do up to 42% more damage in raids. I'd consider this a Good Thing.
SabreMau on
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I specced my paladin prot because blizzards choice in BOL nerfage angers me. I did steamvaults. Now my tanking gear is a mix of awesome kara loot and econo AH blues, but I still manage unenchanted 475 def, and 10700 hps. But the thing that made it trivial was the 400+ block value. Trash didnt really hurt me. Bosses were also pretty damned easy too.
I would be a bit scared on heroics, but with a good Main Healer I would be ok. My gear has alot of spelldamage though, 380 because of an arena spelldamage mace and a few spelldamage peices where I have no tanking peices.
Oh btw this is me in case you want to comment on my half assed protadining.
You're a good 15% away from uncrushable. Ye GODS.
Block value is yummy...if you have block chance to back it up. That 16% be weak. Buy a Crystalforged Sword off the AH. Of course, you actually need that Resilience to be uncrittable, which is depressing.
I'm sure I wasn't in much better doing Slave Pens on Heroic, but you won't be able to do fun things like make Rinder cry as you pull withou CC in Mana Crypts.
CC = CONTINOUS CONSECRATION
I dont think I plan on MTing kara any time soon, so uncrushable isnt a concern.
I think you missed the part where I said random Kara purples and filler I found off the AH
Has any prot pally dual tanked the bog lords right before the first boss in heroic UB?
Some guy in my party said, "I don't think this tank can dual tank these." I wondered if any tank could.
The armory is down, but I'm sitting around 10.7k hp, 4.7k mp, 503 def, 12.6k armor and ~50% base avoidance (without redoubt & holy shield up). Here's the link anyways.
Frigging insane pull.
I did this with a druid tanking. I was healing. He was in some awesome blues, had a ton of armor. IT wasnt all THAT bad but the benefits were druids produce MASSIVE threat and it was one of the best DPS groups I ever had.
Has any prot pally dual tanked the bog lords right before the first boss in heroic UB?
Some guy in my party said, "I don't think this tank can dual tank these." I wondered if any tank could.
The armory is down, but I'm sitting around 10.7k hp, 4.7k mp, 503 def, 12.6k armor and ~50% base avoidance (without redoubt & holy shield up). Here's the link anyways.
Frigging insane pull.
I dual tank those every single time I tank that instance, usually fairly comfortably. Even before I picked up Moroes trinket (come to think of it, even before ANY Karazhan gear, too). You can even self-Cleanse the debuff to save your healer having to spend global cooldowns on it. My advice would be just to boost your miss/dodge/parry for that part (blocks still hurt a lot).
So, Pally hit 50 last night and Outlands is ever-looming over me. What has been decided as the primo levelling spec when you get in there? Or is it all just personal preference. I'm thinking of trying a Shockadin build so I can still heal, but I do have a few 70 friends who are willing to help me instance.
Did.... did you miss the post like 4 before you posted???
Clearly.
Personally, not sure if this is a good thing. A bit of threat reduction would be good; 30% may be overmuch. I would have been more behind giving ret paladins additional utility rather than boosting their ability to dish raw DPS.
Well, after last night's wipe-ridden heroic Underbog run, I went in again today. Me (protection paladin), a holy paladin, a retribution paladin, a shadow priest, and a rogue. CC? What CC? We sapped like two or three mobs the entire run, and that was it.
And it was by far my smoothest heroic UB run ever. Cleared the instance in an hour and 6 minutes. The ret paladin hit #1 overall DPS, though 2nd or 3rd on individual boss fights. None of us died. Mobs just died too fast, even with accidental aggro chain-pulling stuff onto us a couple of times in the naga area. It was excellence. And if next patch'll let the ret go even wilder on DPS? I can definitely come to be liking that (they come along bringing a buffed JotC and Sanctity Aura to let me go even higher on tanking aggro).
Well, after last night's wipe-ridden heroic Underbog run, I went in again today. Me (protection paladin), a holy paladin, a retribution paladin, a shadow priest, and a rogue. CC? What CC? We sapped like two or three mobs the entire run, and that was it.
And it was by far my smoothest heroic UB run ever. Cleared the instance in an hour and 6 minutes. The ret paladin hit #1 overall DPS, though 2nd or 3rd on individual boss fights. None of us died. Mobs just died too fast, even with accidental aggro chain-pulling stuff onto us a couple of times in the naga area. It was excellence. And if next patch'll let the ret go even wilder on DPS? I can definitely come to be liking that (they come along bringing a buffed JotC and Sanctity Aura to let me go even higher on tanking aggro).
I do love having me some ret paladin in the group. So nice. Just so nice.
Thomamelas on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited October 2007
I might level my Paladin a bit, in this case. He's level 14 now, but this sounds really cool.
My buddy (warrior MT) is currently getting tank gear for his paladin (as if he doesn't tank enough), so I'm going for some warrior DPS gear for the coming retribution changes for some dynamic duoing.
Posts
At the raiding level we crave mitigation. Any mitigation is good. For the five man level it's meh.
Truth be told, I think we found out it was more the Static Charge debuff [AoE damage of ~700-800 every 3 seconds to your party when you've got it] that was killing us, but my point still stands: needs more HPs.
This is my dood; in case Armory links still don't work, he's Gerlock, on Dark Iron.
I would be a bit scared on heroics, but with a good Main Healer I would be ok. My gear has alot of spelldamage though, 380 because of an arena spelldamage mace and a few spelldamage peices where I have no tanking peices.
Oh btw this is me in case you want to comment on my half assed protadining.
Can you explain this? I don't play a paladin but I'm thinking of rolling one, how does that happen?
So if you get healed for 100 you get 10 mana. If you get healed for 5000 you get 500 mana.
Great right?
Well mobs and bosses in 5man and heroics really don't hit that hard. I know this isn't true for all heroics, some hit really hard, but in general not so much. If you load up on mitigation and avoidance you'll take very little damage so when you're healed the heals (minus the overhealing) will be for very little; however you'll be using a ton of mana to hold aggro and dps. The end result is that you receive very little mana regen this way and have to drink a lot. Whereas if you just took more damage you'd get bigger heals (this doesn't mean the healer is working much harder; they're healing one way or another, you're just getting more benefit from the heals) and thus more mana returned drastically reducing or even removing downtime on your behalf between fights.
This doesn't follow for raids however because of how hard bosses hit you HAVE to have high levels of mitigation and avoidance even to survive base hits. You will be getting large heals and you will be getting full benefit of these heals 99% of the time anyway, so mana regen isn't usually an issue.
I know it seems a little funny to think "ok, I need to downgrade my gear here" but it's the case. That link I posted a few of my posts back break up in good order what gear is good for 5 mans and what is good for raids, based on this ideology.
it's generally good to have 2 sets of armor, one full of straight up sta/def/avoidance and one with sta/int/def/spelldamage. Sometimes you'll run a heroic where bosses hit especially hard and you can throw on your "raid" set. Then when you go run a buddy through BM or something, give your spell damage tank set a go and you'll make your part of the run much smoother.
EDIT: Don't misunderstand and get gimpy gear just to take more damage. That wasn't my point. You still want mitigation and avoidance. Uncrushable outside of raids is totally unnecessary for a pally tank. Just have enough to do your job and not make the healers blow their load every fight.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Yeah, but it's more fun to think "ok, I need to grab 6 or 7 more mobs here".
Heh. Maybe in a guild run sure. But in a PUG the healer would shit themselves.
It's hard for people to let go of the notion of CC and limiting the amount of enemies you fight at a time. I drive mages nuts breaking their sheep. They get pissy and no matter how many times I try to explain the concept of pally tanking they just don't get it. Same with like BM. If I'm tanking I don't need you to be on adds. The run will go much quicker if you focus all dps on the portal lord.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
You can tank for me anytime :winky:
Block value is yummy...if you have block chance to back it up. That 16% be weak. Buy a Crystalforged Sword off the AH. Of course, you actually need that Resilience to be uncrittable, which is depressing.
I'm sure I wasn't in much better doing Slave Pens on Heroic, but you won't be able to do fun things like make Rinder cry as you pull withou CC in Mana Crypts.
CC = CONTINOUS CONSECRATION
The thread on the WoW forums is more up to date, and kept more up to date.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
I thought there were better trinkets for Protadins later on? You certainly don't need it to tank 5 mans, and by the time you're doing serious tanking you'll be getting better trinkets anyway. This is one of the better spell damage trinkets available, I think, for a Paladin especially. I mean, it's not good for tanking, don't get me wrong, but for the long run I think the Regal trinket's probably the weakest choice of the three.
Ghalan - Tauren Druid
Other tanks basically have to do the same thing. I put on 2-4 pieces of DPS gear over my tanking gear on my druid in normal instances, because otherwise I have rage issues. 32kish armor and 36ish dodge before buffs tends to limit my extra mauls and lacerate spam. I love pally tanks in any case.
Edit,
Oh hey, quick question. Is ALL of scholo soloable at 70 with a pally? I've always wanted to go in alone and take down Baron all by myself, just to say I did it.
I used the protectorate for quite a while into 70 iirc.
And do you mean strat?
I should try it myself, I'm kinda curious what the abom pulls would be like.
holy you just heal through damage with consecrate, prot you just do the regular prot grinding
ret seems to die rather quickly to large groups however
Some guy in my party said, "I don't think this tank can dual tank these." I wondered if any tank could.
The armory is down, but I'm sitting around 10.7k hp, 4.7k mp, 503 def, 12.6k armor and ~50% base avoidance (without redoubt & holy shield up). Here's the link anyways.
Frigging insane pull.
Actually yes, I have. I was in near full kara gear at the time though.
Retribution paladins will now be able to safely do up to 42% more damage in raids. I'd consider this a Good Thing.
I dont think I plan on MTing kara any time soon, so uncrushable isnt a concern.
I think you missed the part where I said random Kara purples and filler I found off the AH
I did this with a druid tanking. I was healing. He was in some awesome blues, had a ton of armor. IT wasnt all THAT bad but the benefits were druids produce MASSIVE threat and it was one of the best DPS groups I ever had.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2366553374&sid=1
XBL
Clearly.
Personally, not sure if this is a good thing. A bit of threat reduction would be good; 30% may be overmuch. I would have been more behind giving ret paladins additional utility rather than boosting their ability to dish raw DPS.
And it was by far my smoothest heroic UB run ever. Cleared the instance in an hour and 6 minutes. The ret paladin hit #1 overall DPS, though 2nd or 3rd on individual boss fights. None of us died. Mobs just died too fast, even with accidental aggro chain-pulling stuff onto us a couple of times in the naga area. It was excellence. And if next patch'll let the ret go even wilder on DPS? I can definitely come to be liking that (they come along bringing a buffed JotC and Sanctity Aura to let me go even higher on tanking aggro).
XBL
I do love having me some ret paladin in the group. So nice. Just so nice.
I looked, but I did indeed apparently miss it :P
However, check out the last "on equip" on this item:
http://wowhead.com/?item=33750
Pretty sweet.
http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/2366553309.htm
Ret or Holy to level? I've done Prot and it's fun and all, but I wanna try somethin new.