I've always been confused by this, are we supposed to like the Jedi as an organization? Maybe the Kotor games and what happened to Asoka in Clone Wars has skewed my opinion, but they've always come off way too much like assholes for me to find anything redeeming about them.
I kind of think George thought we were supposed to, and/or couldn't see how anyone could have a problem with it. They're the Good Guys!
Someone in response to my previous post suggested it didn't have to be destroyed, that it could have been gradually reformed, without all the terrible collateral damage. I... really don't think so. The institutional inertia, internal culture, and pride in those things was too set.
That's the sort of thing that makes the time after RotJ a very compelling period and the one I'm most anxious to see the new canon for: aside from the fact that I've always thought Luke was a cool dude and want more fun adventures with him, it's how he chooses to reform the Jedi (or not) that is a completely blank slate. I'm dying to know what version of the Jedi code he's passing on, and if he fell back into the same dogmatic boneheadedness that befell the Old Republic order.
I think that it would be interesting if he tried to reform the Jedi on the old lines, and that was part of why they immediately fell again. The Force itself saying "nope, you got it right when you threw away your lightsaber and appealed to your father, this family stuff is actually kind of important to stay grounded. Let's reset this, you go think about it, and we'll send you a new apprentice when the time is right."
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
I've always been confused by this, are we supposed to like the Jedi as an organization? Maybe the Kotor games and what happened to Asoka in Clone Wars has skewed my opinion, but they've always come off way too much like assholes for me to find anything redeeming about them.
No.
we're definitely supposed to in the Lucasverse, but everyone else making star wars stuff other than Lucas has looked at the jedi as he presented them and said "What the fuck is wrong with these people"
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
The key element here is that nobody before the year 1999 ever thought "hey, I bet the Jedi are celibate weirdos with rat-tails." We all knew that the Jedi were AWESOME HEROES WITH SWORDS..
Entirely too many hours of media and too much real life time has been wasted in a fourteen-year jackoff fiesta about the pros and cons of celibate rat-tail weirdos as depicted in a series of terrible movies and some pretty good video games and cartoons that could have been better if they had been about HEROES WITH SWORDS instead of celibate rat-tail weirdos.
For mysterious unknowable reasons, now that the same people who did the celibate rat-tail weirdo cartoon are getting to do a new one without George Lucas over their shoulders, they are drawing heavily on the 1980s RPG-era art and design and telling stories about HEROES WITH SWORDS.
I am sure this is just mysterious coincidence of course
I'm now picturing Jacobkosh wandering the streets yelling "HEROES WITH SWORDS" at random people.
And yeah, it's nice to see Jedi with attachments again! Enjoying stuff instead of being all dour duty. As a fellow child of 1st Ed WEG Star Wars, it's a delight to see.
I'm now picturing Jacobkosh wandering the streets yelling "HEROES WITH SWORDS" at random people.
And yeah, it's nice to see Jedi with attachments again! Enjoying stuff instead of being all dour duty. As a fellow child of 1st Ed WEG Star Wars, it's a delight to see.
The key element here is that nobody before the year 1999 ever thought "hey, I bet the Jedi are celibate weirdos with rat-tails." We all knew that the Jedi were AWESOME HEROES WITH SWORDS..
I always found that whole "Strange old hobo who's terribly friendly and even charming, but has fucking mind control powers, oh and everyone calls him 'General'," distinctly weird and off-putting. And I say this as someone who really liked Alec Guinness's other work (I might be the only person here who saw Dr. Zhivago before Star Wars).
So he trains some teenager to go and meet his destiny--very wuxia film, nothing wrong with that--who can go use mind control powers and choke people telepathically. But it's okay, because he's a good guy! I mean, he clearly is, he blows up the horrible planet-destroying space station and saves the universe! The space station manned by Hungarian Nazis (granted, they're also better actors, but that's not the point).
Oh, and by the way, you know the chief bad guy? He was one of these warrior monks too. He's just what happens when one of them has a lot of bad days in a row.
Really, there was never a point where for me when I thought Luke and Obi-Wan Kenobi were "Awesome heroes with swords"--insomuch as "awesome" usually has a positive connotation. It'd be better to say "awe-inspiring (or awful) warriors with laser swords" who happen to be the heroes. When I saw the prequels they served to strip away the mysterious veneer of the Order--which can obviously be a bad thing, especially if you like them awesome and mysterious--but didn't change my impression of them. That's never been an area when I thought "What the fuck, this makes no sense! What do you mean this weird hobo everyone calls 'General' and is a mind-controlling psychic warrior monk, and trained other mind-controlling psychic warrior monks came from a creepy, disturbing order with its hand on the levers of power? I am shocked!"
To me, the prequels are bad because they are very bad films with particularly bad writing (and do a much worse job of hiding it than the original trilogy did with its occasional campy lines--or outright replacing the bad lines, e.g. Han Solo going "I know," in a moment of brilliance). They were also psychic mind controlling weirdos who sometimes become evil fucking tornadoes of destruction--there's a reason why you don't show how bacon or sausage are made, even if bacon and sausage are delicious.
But I'm also probably in the minority here, as aforementioned. I don't want to be contrary just for the sake of being contrary, but I think there is an allowance for even young viewers to look at the Cheddar monks, recognize that they're awfully powerful and dangerous, and that if they really were 'Generals' who protected the the government for 'a thousand years', something strange was going on. But I also grew up at the twilight of a capitalist one-party dictatorship, so 'Old Republic' also meant something different to me too. Maybe my childhood was just too cynical for Star Wars.
And when you mind-control someone--even if you're the good guy--that's a red flag. Alec Guinness is a good guy--he has to be a good guy--but those monks? Yeah, I wouldn't trust those weirdos.
EDIT: TO be clear, the "I know," line is a great line that replaced a more boring line--in case there was any confusion. It's one of the reasons TESB is such a great film.
You're forgetting the child abduction. That is a bigger red flag than the mind control.
I've never actually seen it in action in the movies or cartoons. Maybe it's in the novels, but it's a thing that's so obscure you may as well ignore it. Clone Wars was perfect to show this, and do it properly as a gray area - yet they didn't do anything with it.
You're forgetting the child abduction. That is a bigger red flag than the mind control.
Well, yeah, but they don't do that in the old films.
Right?
Or the new ones.
They're plenty weird without it.
Besides, when you see a couple dozen or hundred or thousand "younglings" being gradually taught how to turn the Republic's enemies into sashimi, you just assume they got them the same way they got their army: cloned war slaves. Okay, maybe not, but it's one of the questions that's left unanswered.
You're forgetting the child abduction. That is a bigger red flag than the mind control.
Well, yeah, but they don't do that in the old films.
Right?
Or the new ones.
They're plenty weird without it.
Besides, when you see a couple dozen or hundred or thousand "younglings" being gradually taught how to turn the Republic's enemies into sashimi, you just assume they got them the same way they got their army: cloned war slaves. Okay, maybe not, but it's one of the questions that's left unanswered.
Maybe you did, but it's not supported in the movie itself. The Jedi didn't create the clone army, they don't have main authority over it though they lead it technically (the Republic does) and they show concern over it. Especially in Clone Wars. If that was the case they're the most emotionally stable "slaves" ever, which I doubt is the reason why they're there. The movies don't get into much about anything with the Jedi Order, for the real meat you have to go Clone Wars.
You're forgetting the child abduction. That is a bigger red flag than the mind control.
Well, yeah, but they don't do that in the old films.
Right?
Or the new ones.
They're plenty weird without it.
Besides, when you see a couple dozen or hundred or thousand "younglings" being gradually taught how to turn the Republic's enemies into sashimi, you just assume they got them the same way they got their army: cloned war slaves. Okay, maybe not, but it's one of the questions that's left unanswered.
That was me joking (it didn't get across well, my bad). I actually speculated about how people look at their children joining in the order way back when.
So, does everyone know Palpatine is a Sith Lord? Also, after Palpatine takes over, anyone who can follow events and has a decent ability to investigate should be able to figure out Palpatine orchestrated the Clone Wars to put himself in power. I mean, he did a pretty good job of cleaning up the evidence but the chain of logic isn't super hard to put together, especially if you know he's a Sith Lord.
No one knows but the remaining Jedi. (And they don't even tell Luke.) It would be really hard to prove anything if you didn't already have inside knowledge, either. If you do, and that the Trade Federation was being advised by a Sith, it all clicks into place, but as far as the galaxy knows:
A megacorporation had a tantrum about various trade rules in the less-powerful outlying regions of the Republic. To protest/strongarm them, they blockaded a largely-defenseless system.
The Senator of the that sector/system/planet/whatever (it varies) was elected the new Chancellor after the Senate refused to do anything and the planetary governor moved for a vote of no confidence in the old Chancellor's leadership, resulting in the old Chancellor's removal.
The megacorporation's private forces are defeated in battle and its leaders arrested. However, over 10 years, the courts are unable to pin anything on them. Meanwhile, they join forces with like-minded trade, banking, and corporate groups, and declare their intent to secede from the Republic, creating a government more in line with their interests; the group is lead by a Jedi Master who resigned from the Order. The Separatists also attempt assassination of more moderate voices in the Senate, seemingly wanting a war.
The Senate moves to allow the Chancellor, who has governed capably the last ten years, emergency powers for the duration of the crisis. He promptly creates a galactic army and fleet (previously, each sector/system/planet/whatever had its own forces; aside from creating its own forces, this creates a centralized bureaucracy that assumes direct control of all such armies and fleets). The Jedi take part in defending the Republic by becoming commanders and elite strike teams.
Over several years, the war goes back and forth. Numerous atrocities are committed, most often by the Separatists and their brutal general, Grievous, an alien cyborg monster, but sometimes an ugly scandal erupts when a Jedi goes dark and causes significant destruction. The Chancellor has exceeded his term limits, but emergency powers allow it; he has also been using these powers, oh so regretfully, to absorb more authority to the office, only when absolutely necessary of course. He looks so tired, but his resolve is implacable!
Utilizing previously-unknown hyperspace routes, the Separatists raid Coruscant, causing much damage and capturing the Chancellor. He is almost immediately rescued by the two most famous Jedi of the era, Obi-Wan Kenobi and ANAKIN SKYWALKER (squee). Anakin not only rescues the Chancellor, he kills the ex-Jedi leader of the Separatists and performs a frankly impossibly feat of flying for all the cameras to see.
General Grievous is defeated. By who? A TRAITOR THAT'S WHO:
The Jedi attempt a coup, moving to assassinate the Chancellor, who is saved by the timely intervention of the only true Jedi, ANAKIN SKYWALKER (squee). In turn, the Chancellor (scarred by the Jedi's horrible attack), declares the Jedi enemies of the state, and also that that state is no longer a Republic, but an Empire, which he has the authority to create thanks to legally holding all the power anyway. It will be guided by his steady hand, as Emperor.
The remaining Separatist leaders and the false Jedi are hunted down by ANAKIN SKYWALKER (squee), but their treachery leads to his death (wailing and gnashing of teeth). Nonetheless, the evil Jedi are undone, being a Jedi and using "the Force" (whatever that means) is outlawed, and the galaxy has entered a new golden age under the stewardship of Emperor Palpatine, absolute ruler of the Galactic Empire. Huzzah!
ALL IS WELL CITIZEN. MOVE ALONG.
The word Sith was presumably never even heard by the general public, and the last time it was common knowledge what one was was a thousand years ago, so it probably never crossed their mind.
This works even more smoothly if you consider that the public image of the Jedi Order, and the Jedi by necessity, was probably not entirely charming to a lot of people.
You had, after all, a state-sponsored body that was institutionalizing a minority mystical religion (something that the population as whole either didn't believe in or wasn't familiar with). "The Force" was never a majority faith, no? It could be more thought of as a force of nature that was somehow weaponized (as most people who don't really care about philosophy, but do care about laser swords).
We don't know how cosmopolitan the different populations, nations and planets that most regularly encountered the Jedi were--minority religious communities (even if they're only a minority in a certain locality) being promoted to an elite status by the governing power is both a very common thing, and something that very greatly upsets people, even just on principle (look at practically every religiously-driven war ever).
Putting aside that they practice a mystical religion that is intentionally inaccessible to many people (the Jedi Order certainly seem to certainly have its own secrets too, even if, like any believable organization, they assure everyone else they are not secret, nothing to see here, move along), and that it is made economically feasible by the state (since the Jedi, to my knowledge, do not actually produce any income--at best, their intervention can prevent destruction of property and loss of lives, but that could be just as easily seen as responsible for the costly destruction of other property, however necessary). The Republican government pays for the existence of the Order, and a high cost it can be potentially.
And then there's there day-to-day behavior as an institution. Forget that they are a religious order based around mysticism that is difficult, or impossible, for many to grasp. They are self-policing (as in when a Jedi goes bad--which is usually not the case, let's assume--it is the responsibility of the Order to determine if they have conducted a breach of conduct, and what the punishment should be). It's an aggravated version of the problem of civil-military relations: assuming reality as a model, which we are, say a Republican soldier goes on a drunken bender and hits a civilian or four with a speeder, killing them. Institutions do exist to punish that soldier within the confines of the military justice system, but--especially outside of wartime--a concession may be made to allow a civilian court (which, no matter how flawed, is almost guaranteed to be better trusted than its military counterpart by the civilian population which represents a overwhelming majority of living society) to try the soldier based on legal precedent or even just a political gesture on the part of the military. As far as I can tell, that's anathema to the Jedi--Jedi are tried by Jedi, they are arrested by other Jedi, they are punished by other Jedi. There may exist some difference between a Jedi who abuses government funds to spend on alien hookers and space-blow, a Jedi who simply makes a lamentable error that results in civilian death, and a Jedi who happens to draw the karmic short straw and makes the transition from "saintly paragon of virtue" to "living satanic tornado of death and destruction" as has happened in the past (Skywalker simply being the last example of it)--but in all three cases, there doesn't seem to be normal mechanism to try the party in question in either a civilian or a military court (which, while problematic, is probably still much more suitable to the population as a whole--there are a lot more ex-soldiers, sailors, officers and reservists one must assume than ex-Jedi). A big part of that is the Jedi's (self-appointed?) position as moral guardians--both in regards to normal ethics, and Jedi ethics, which are assuredly above the understanding of the common rabble. In a society that values the concept of institutional law and order--a value the Jedi themselves vocally praise, in regards to everyone else (which is quite forgivable--everyone else is 99.999% of the population, if not more), a highly-visible, highly-influential, and fairly opaque organization that exists above the law, whether out of necessity or tradition, will certainly earn a great deal of suspicion (even if people aren't clamoring for them to be dragged out into the street). As moral guardians, the Jedi suggest they are an apolitical organization but, like any body supported by the government, there's a reason a certain level of cynicism would exist around that. It's very natural to draw a connection between these two sore points.
And there's how the Jedi recruit into their movement. Listening to Obi-Wan Kenobi wax nostalgically about his past apprentice, you could be forgiven for picturing a young Anakin Skywalker, fresh into adulthood and the freedom and responsibility that entails, realizing the Order as a golden opportunity that'll define the rest of his still-long life. Or maybe Anakin isn't that old, but already an adult for a decade or more, an experienced pilot and a worldly individual, for whom the Order is a chance at another fresh start not limited by humble circumstances. Except he's not--he's waxing nostalgically about how (as a fairly young man himself), he found a ten year to indoctrinate into this militarized religious order. And even then, he was considered "too old" by some standards. As a matter of necessity, recruiting (in this case from children) has to be one of the more visible actions of the Order, since they do not produce members within their own closed community. And while many parents, presumably, see it as a miraculous chance for their child to be assured into fame and greatness (at the cost of not having grandchildren and fairly severe separation from the family itself--two substantial costs), the community at large has fewer reasons to be as sympathetic (they don't enjoy the monetary compensation the family does, nor the fame, naturally). Precedent exists for children to be inducted into monastical orders obviously, but those are accepted because of the influence and value given to the majority faith in a religious society. The Jedi Order is neither apparently--which is the reason why they must typically seek children, rather than the reverse. Of course, only so many children are recruited into the Order in any given period (and they are generally treated well, at least physically--the replacement of their family with the Jedi Order is a separate matter), affecting only so many families and communities, but there's another sore point: they are, after all, being trained to become child soldiers because...
...the Order is militarized. Returning to earlier, in a society that values the institution of law and a normal professionalization of the military. Enlisted men and women come from a broad cross-section of society, either by volunteering or by means of conscription, reflecting the investment of the entirety of society, and not just the political leadership, in war-making. The officer corp are trained professionals subject to a consistent curriculum (with specialization as necessary), who put a further investment of their time and livelihood but reflect the same value overall. But for the Republic, it is more effective to simply draft the Jedi into becoming the officer corps (both as flag and company officers) rather than maintain a separate class of trained professionals, an arrangement the Jedi seem content to honor. After all, they have as much at stake, if not more, than the civilian population at the ongoing political viability (and domination if necessary) of the Republican government. And a smaller officer corps can be generated to fill in the gaps that the Jedi's martial prowess and training doesn't lend itself easier too. They function normally, presumably acting as a modern military force--pilots going to flight school, artillery officers going to artillery school, ship captains going to naval school, etc. The Jedi, on the other hand, seem to be a hangover from a time of feudal vassals pledging their service (and the fighting men they could press-gang under them, as necessary) for military service. No doubt the arrangement is effective--if you'd ever had your arms chopped off by a thirteen-year-old field lieutenant with a laser sword, you'd have to agree--but it is the antithesis of a professional military force. Most obviously, it turns the possibly of a coup d'etat executed by the Jedi, as high officers, from a vague possibility to a cynical inevitability (and a possibility the Jedi discuss, if necessary, to preserve the Republic as they understand it). It's not as serious a problem as it might be otherwise: the civilian population, as a whole, connects military and political leaders as the elites of society, and will often accept one as another until external pressures, typically economic, push them too far. If the Jedi did launch a coup, and succeeded, it's not hard to assume, "Well, they probably had a good reason--have you seen the state of government nowadays?" And afterwards, what exactly would change? The Jedi were already at the pinnacle of a the system with a limited degree of practical representation over its population anyway. By proxy to the highest officials, they already have some hand in the reins of government. All that amounts to a minor changing of hats for a lot of people.
Taken individually, these aren't extremely serious problems. People can accept their political elites being secretive, closed, or even frequently unaccountable so long as certain social expectations are met, themselves usually so old and established they are easy to do so (for example, see theJeltoqsan in Soviet Kazakhstan in 1986--the republic's citizenry rioted over a change in leadership, not because they disagreed with the Communist Party as a whole--on the contrary, they expected it to do an adequate job of governing--but because Mikhail Gorbachev replaced an allegedly corrupt official born in the republic, a "favored son" with a supposedly uncorrupt outsider whom had never prior been to Kazakhstan, a large part of the case to why he would be less corrupt). In the Old Republic, the expectations are probably much more forgiving, as the government is always far away, always fairly indisposed, and the Jedi have always been there (at least for a few thousand years). It does mean that the idea of a Jedi-orchestrated coup, to the population familiar with the Jedi's responsibilities--outside arbitration, military leadership, political counsel, all above the law--was hardly that difficult to imagine. Why wouldn't they try and take over if they were dissatisfied with government? The inaccessible mysticism of the Order--in the end of the day, unless you know what it's like to be able to read someone else's mind, you don't know what it's like to be able to read someone else's mind--just adds fuel to the speculation.
Creating a political case against the Jedi and the Jedi Order is accordingly easy. Yes, you will not convince the man or woman on the street whose life was saved by a Jedi Knight who freed them from captivity or slavery, but you were never going to convince them of any real or fake wrongdoing on the part of the Jedi. Those people negatively affected by the Jedi--families or populations aligned with the Separatist who saw the Jedi as an obstacle to political freedom--will not be swayed at all. But the vast majority of the population with only a vague notion of the Jedi (knowing that their taxes go to, among other things, supporting their order, and that they are allowed to behave in a way the rest of society does not) can be swayed.
Assuming the population in general behaves in a believable manner. Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy and related stuff speculated a great deal on the public image of the Jedi (generally long before the Prequel Trilogy was out) and how a cosmopolitan society would regard a closed, tight-knit monastical order who were the guardians of peace and justice, at least in their own minds, but I guess that's not a topic to pursue.
tl;dr--they were probably there with their parent's blessing. I mostly just think it's odd to take on a positive view of a monastical order that, in the (rare?) event of war will draft its children into being lieutenants. Of course, I wasn't thinking of that when I first saw Star Wars because if you told me that before seeing the prequels I would've said, "Hah! Get real! Even George Lucas isn't that stupid."
The Republican Grand Army (and its armed forces in a broader sense, though it's mostly an army thing) is still made up of cloned war slaves born solely for the purpose (and from I'm told, not really intended to live very long beyond a projected military contract of a few years?). And unlike the semi-intelligent robots the other side is throwing into the same meat-grinder, they seem entirely capable of feeling pain, anxiety, and suffering more generally. I would actually say that the institutional adoption of that system is worse than having a bunch of 14-year-olds run around like the gods of battlefields with their laser swords (and only the later of these was up to the Order, I think).
To me, they've always been weird, warrior monks. The prequels just added a whole bunch of institutional creepiness.
EDIT: Totally broken quote tree, courtesy of myself.
That was me being joking. I actually speculated about how people look at their children joining in the order way back when.
tl;dr--they were probably there with their parent's blessing. I mostly just think it's odd to take on a positive view of a monastical order that, in the (rare?) event of war will draft its children into being lieutenants. Of course, I wasn't thinking of that when I first saw Star Wars because if you told me that before seeing the prequels I would've said, "Hah! Get real! Even George Lucas isn't that stupid."
Why probably? I can't recall any instance of the Jedi Order acting too harshly, especially since most of the canon is thrown out. And even the critique about Jedi children was very obscure back then too.
The Republican Grand Army (and its armed forces in a broader sense, though it's mostly an army thing) is still made up of cloned war slaves born solely for the purpose (and from I'm told, not really intended to live very long beyond a projected military contract of a few years?). I would actually say that the institutional adoption of that system is even worse than having a bunch of 14-year-olds run around like the gods of battlefields with their laser swords.
To me, they've always been weird, warrior monks. The prequels just added a whole bunch of institutional creepiness.
Sure a fucked up situation, one the films didn't get into but what we do know from the Clone Wars is that the clones weren't rated like slaves by the Jedi (the one who did was clearly a bad guy) which they didn't plan on or like, but had to go along with for various reasons. Those being, being ordered to by the Republic government (which answers to the guy who created them secretly in the first place for evil purposes), did so reluctantly and being woefully undermanned in a galactic war the Republic barely matched even with the clones. This has nothing to do with how they recruit within their order.
Sure its weird, and slightly creepy. But they're not Sith Lords by any stretch.
That was me being joking. I actually speculated about how people look at their children joining in the order way back when.
tl;dr--they were probably there with their parent's blessing. I mostly just think it's odd to take on a positive view of a monastical order that, in the (rare?) event of war will draft its children into being lieutenants. Of course, I wasn't thinking of that when I first saw Star Wars because if you told me that before seeing the prequels I would've said, "Hah! Get real! Even George Lucas isn't that stupid."
Why probably? I can't recall any instance of the Jedi Order acting too harshly, especially since most of the canon is thrown out. And even the critique about Jedi children was very obscure back then too.
The Republican Grand Army (and its armed forces in a broader sense, though it's mostly an army thing) is still made up of cloned war slaves born solely for the purpose (and from I'm told, not really intended to live very long beyond a projected military contract of a few years?). I would actually say that the institutional adoption of that system is even worse than having a bunch of 14-year-olds run around like the gods of battlefields with their laser swords.
To me, they've always been weird, warrior monks. The prequels just added a whole bunch of institutional creepiness.
Sure a fucked up situation, one the films didn't get into but what we do know from the Clone Wars is that the clones weren't rated like slaves by the Jedi (the one who did was clearly a bad guy) which they didn't plan on or like, but had to go along with for various reasons. Those being, being ordered to by the Republic government (which answers to the guy who created them secretly in the first place for evil purposes), did so reluctantly and being woefully undermanned in a galactic war the Republic barely matched even with the clones. This has nothing to do with how they recruit within their order.
Sure its weird, and slightly creepy. But they're not Sith Lords by any stretch.
As I recall, there were a few exceptional circumstances where the parents later objected, or situations changed--that's why "probably".
And I never claimed they were the bad guys, of course, just weird and more than a little creepy--though the greater warning to take away from that might be the fact that the actual bad guys (or rather, the worst among them) are the crazies the Order unintentionally but invariably produce every so often. But yes, those troops (by contrast) are cloned war slaves of the Republican government, not the Cheddar monks exclusively (themselves an institution within the government)--in case there was any confusion.
You're forgetting the child abduction. That is a bigger red flag than the mind control.
Well, yeah, but they don't do that in the old films.
Right?
They imply it. "He is too old to be trained"
Also the Jedi don't abduct children. They train them with the parent's consent.
I doubt in most cases, that the parents agreed to their children being turned into emotionless robots, whom are never allowed to visit their family again. Once they are halfway across the galaxy, most people really have no way to get them back.
Abducted under false pretenses?
Abducted with consent?
You're forgetting the child abduction. That is a bigger red flag than the mind control.
Well, yeah, but they don't do that in the old films.
Right?
They imply it. "He is too old to be trained"
Also the Jedi don't abduct children. They train them with the parent's consent.
I doubt in most cases, that the parents agreed to their children being turned into emotionless robots, whom are never allowed to visit their family again. Once they are halfway across the galaxy, most people really have no way to get them back.
Abducted under false pretenses?
Abducted with consent?
Where was this shown as an actual thing that occurred?
edit: Keep in mind most of Legends got throw out of Disney canon too.
You're forgetting the child abduction. That is a bigger red flag than the mind control.
Well, yeah, but they don't do that in the old films.
Right?
They imply it. "He is too old to be trained"
Also the Jedi don't abduct children. They train them with the parent's consent.
I doubt in most cases, that the parents agreed to their children being turned into emotionless robots, whom are never allowed to visit their family again. Once they are halfway across the galaxy, most people really have no way to get them back.
Abducted under false pretenses?
Abducted with consent?
If you think the Order's powerful--you should see the legal counsel they have on retainer.
If a child is strong in the Force and it manifests like magic does in the Harry Potter universe, I would be unsurprised to see parents willingly giving away their children. But it doesn't seem like that's the case.
You're forgetting the child abduction. That is a bigger red flag than the mind control.
Well, yeah, but they don't do that in the old films.
Right?
They imply it. "He is too old to be trained"
Also the Jedi don't abduct children. They train them with the parent's consent.
I doubt in most cases, that the parents agreed to their children being turned into emotionless robots, whom are never allowed to visit their family again. Once they are halfway across the galaxy, most people really have no way to get them back.
Abducted under false pretenses?
Abducted with consent?
Where was this shown as an actual thing that occurred?
edit: Keep in mind most of Legends got throw out of Disney canon too.
Which part? The actual "abduction's"? I am not sure we really have examples of that anymore, since we only really see Anakin being inducted. Were there any clone wars episodes where they showed the Jedi collecting kids from their parents? I remember some youngling episodes, but they were already in the order at that point.
As for never seeing their parents again, Anakin leaves his mother in slavery, not even knowing she had been bought by someone else/married, until she died. That means there was zero contact after he was taken.
Like in this instance I can understand why she wouldn't care, it was a far better life for him (or would have been...).
Past that, I am not sure of any specific examples outside of legends, since it isn't something they have really touched on. I know originally Dooku didn't know who his parents were until far after his training had ended, and he was royalty. So I doubt they were expecting him to "disappear" when he went away for training. "Sure, take the heir to my throne, I didn't really need him anyway..."
I expect the new films will end up touching on this a bit, with Luke's new order.
I guess they lost a lot of records when the Temple was sacked in the KOTOR period, then, 'cause that era had fallen Jedi all over the place.
(Or perhaps the records were 'curated' even later on, to pass on to posterity a more ... 'palatable' version of history and/or what following the Code gets you.)
You're forgetting the child abduction. That is a bigger red flag than the mind control.
I've never actually seen it in action in the movies or cartoons. Maybe it's in the novels, but it's a thing that's so obscure you may as well ignore it. Clone Wars was perfect to show this, and do it properly as a gray area - yet they didn't do anything with it.
Clone Wars did what I wish more fans were capable of, which is to ignore stupid stuff instead of endlessly masticating and relitigating it over and over for literally a decade and a half.
The prequels were terrible films. They were terrible cinema, they were terrible as prequels to the existing stories, and they had a couple of questionable implications which were seized on really hard by ancillary media and fandom as "proof" of...something.
But the third thing is an illustration of the first two things. It is as much an example of terrible decision-making as bad dialogue or ill-begotten CGI. It's like if someone amateurishly wrote and drew a comic about how Captain America was a cowardly racist. You don't go "oh well this thing looks like a third-grader drew it and half the words are misspelt and out of order but man, fuck Captain America and his minority-hating ways!" The sensible reader looks at the evidence, concludes that this whole thing was a mistake, throw the comic in the trash, and moves on.
It is okay to disregard the content of self-evidently terrible stories based on their self-evident terribleness. Real people in the real world don't have to live lives beholden to Canon.
I guess they lost a lot of records when the Temple was sacked in the KOTOR period, then, 'cause that era had fallen Jedi all over the place.
(Or perhaps the records were 'curated' even later on, to pass on to posterity a more ... 'palatable' version of history and/or what following the Code gets you.)
What this actually means is that George Lucas and the KOTOR writers were not, you know, personally comparing notes and it's not anything more significant than that. For my part, I personally think that "only seven Jedi have ever left the order" seems somewhat implausible in a way that I completely expect from an old person who doesn't really get how big a galaxy is or how long 20,000 years are, while "literally anything can turn a good person into a cackling sadist within seconds SO WHO ARE THE REAL VILLAINS, EH?" is profoundly dumb and not really one of the elements of the KOTOR games that has worn well.
I mean, you're free to put some kind of sinister spin on that discrepancy if your heart is set on that, but why not just shrug at it and move on?
Which - to bring us back to the topic of the thread - is what Disney is basically doing. For reasons that may be professional courtesy or may be entirely contractual in nature, they are not going around and outright contradicting any of the prequel films or the Clone Wars cartoon, but there's a very obvious shift in emphasis. When Kanan shares a loving kiss with his wife, we're not meant to think UH OH, HOW OMINOUS. When Rey worries about Finn, it's not depicted as her becoming unhealthily attached.
Disney's over that shit. I realize that for some people that must feel like some kind of departure or even a betrayal, but for me, and the fans in my life who came of age with the original movies, it feels like a homecoming.
You're forgetting the child abduction. That is a bigger red flag than the mind control.
Well, yeah, but they don't do that in the old films.
Right?
They imply it. "He is too old to be trained"
Also the Jedi don't abduct children. They train them with the parent's consent.
I doubt in most cases, that the parents agreed to their children being turned into emotionless robots, whom are never allowed to visit their family again. Once they are halfway across the galaxy, most people really have no way to get them back.
Abducted under false pretenses?
Abducted with consent?
Where was this shown as an actual thing that occurred?
edit: Keep in mind most of Legends got throw out of Disney canon too.
Which part? The actual "abduction's"? I am not sure we really have examples of that anymore, since we only really see Anakin being inducted. Were there any clone wars episodes where they showed the Jedi collecting kids from their parents? I remember some youngling episodes, but they were already in the order at that point.
Anakin wasn't abducted. No, nothing like that occurred in the cartoon - that's why your criticism is so odd. That sounds like something the Sith would do, though.
As for never seeing their parents again, Anakin leaves his mother in slavery, not even knowing she had been bought by someone else/married, until she died. That means there was zero contact after he was taken.
Like in this instance I can understand why she wouldn't care, it was a far better life for him (or would have been...).
I wouldn't use Anakin as an average case, he is not treated by average at any stage of his recruitment. And I wouldn't say what they did was bad, aside from not taking his mother with them. Which I agree is terrible for them to do, we are given no explanation for why they did that either so it's hard to judge it clearly since we don't have all the facts for the decision. This happens a lot in the prequels btw.
Past that, I am not sure of any specific examples outside of legends, since it isn't something they have really touched on. I know originally Dooku didn't know who his parents were until far after his training had ended, and he was royalty. So I doubt they were expecting him to "disappear" when he went away for training. "Sure, take the heir to my throne, I didn't really need him anyway..."
In Legends. It wasn't touched on much there either IIRC which is why I'm not bothered by it. How did Dooku end up there, and why did they do that to him? Was that common? Did they only do that to royalty? Did his parents give him away freely? Was he kidnapped? I don't know the full context for this to judge. Are they any more examples? There had better be if you're arguing this was a standard practice for the Order. And I wouldn't exactly call that an abduction if his parents didn't care about him and he was willing to do go.
I expect the new films will end up touching on this a bit, with Luke's new order.
Rey specifically.
Hopefully.
Though it depends on the circumstance how she got recruited and whether it's what everyone does.
The movies don't really keep to any of the eu stuff. Which is good, since it was largely terrible.
Yeah, it's a shame we can't do that to the largely terrible prequel trilogy either.
Though in the future, who knows? One way or another, it's probably not an uncalled for to view this as a long-term project open potentially many interpretations down the line (ideally each one improving on the last).
I wonder if there would be significant fan backlash to there being some offhand comment saying that midichlorians are nonsense, or maybe just corrolary to one's strength in the Force instead of causatory. (e.g. they're symbiotic creatures that can multiply much faster in someone strong in the Force, and it's easier to test for them instead of actual Force sensitivity) and the Jedi were just confused.
In other words, assuming that Disney wanted to do away with the most obnoxious parts of the prequels, would they be better off just completely ignoring them, or coming up with retcons?
I wonder if there would be significant fan backlash to there being some offhand comment saying that midichlorians are nonsense, or maybe just corrolary to one's strength in the Force instead of causatory. (e.g. they're symbiotic creatures that can multiply much faster in someone strong in the Force, and it's easier to test for them instead of actual Force sensitivity) and the Jedi were just confused.
I'd guarantee it. See what happened when Disney purged canon, it wasn't pretty.
In other words, assuming that Disney wanted to do away with the most obnoxious parts of the prequels, would they be better off just completely ignoring them, or coming up with retcons?
I see it as an eventuality, the question is when. It may be 5 to 20 years but it's going to happen. Especially since they have a frosty relationship with Lucas.
I wonder if there would be significant fan backlash to there being some offhand comment saying that midichlorians are nonsense, or maybe just corrolary to one's strength in the Force instead of causatory. (e.g. they're symbiotic creatures that can multiply much faster in someone strong in the Force, and it's easier to test for them instead of actual Force sensitivity) and the Jedi were just confused.
I'd guarantee it. See what happened when Disney purged canon, it wasn't pretty.
In other words, assuming that Disney wanted to do away with the most obnoxious parts of the prequels, would they be better off just completely ignoring them, or coming up with retcons?
I see it as an eventuality, the question is when. It may be 5 to 20 years but it's going to happen. Especially since they have a frosty relationship with Lucas.
There's going to be fan backlash regardless, because some fans are terrible people (See: "Black storm trooper, wut?", "Rey's entirely too competent, wut?", "Female protaganist, wut?), and some of these terrible people like to hear themselves talk in every form of media possible.
I think if they could put out some pre-prequels they could show the Jedi Order that was a force for law and justice to the entire galaxy slowly declining into what we saw in the Prequels, all with the best of intentions, (being driven by subtle Sith machinations?). You could put down the Midichlorian test showing a persons force potential as related to the symbiotes drawn to people strong in the force, but the holocron (or memory module or whatever) that that information was held in was lost or destroyed during an attack on the temple. So, they're left knowing the blood test for midichlorians relates directly to a users force strength but don't know why. Someone puts forth the theory that the MC (sorry, I can't type that word anymore) are the source of force power and that seems logical enough for now, so let's go with that.
Show the best and brightest of the Jedi being drawn far from their seats of power and killed. Weaker Jedi being corrupted and turned to the dark side by the loss of their friends and companions. Maybe some ominous black robed figures in the background advising planetary rulers and sowing discord. Could even have a schism setting the stage for a Jedi civil war leading to more lost and corrupted knowledge.
With the old EU thrown out, there's a lot you could do there. Unfortunately, anything you do is just going to contribute to the construction of a new EU. And of course, bitching and moaning from the fanbase.
Woah woah woah, claiming Rey is too competent, given she has zero training in the force or lightsaber, does not make you a terrible person.
No, that's not it. Crazy fans can have ideas you agree with, it gets irritating when they do are on your side. It's not the opinion by itself (though this depends on a lot for factors and how far down the rabbit hole they go), it's how they defend it.
I think any star wars writer that writes the word midichlorians will be taken out back and given a savage beating thrown into the nearest bottomless pit commonly found in canon.
I might be a tad more extreme in my feelings on the issue.
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
I think any star wars writer that writes the word midichlorians will be taken out back and given a savage beating thrown into the nearest bottomless pit commonly found in canon.
I might be a tad more extreme in my feelings on the issue.
Look, guys, we've got a sarlacc right over there. No need to go find a bottomless pit somewhere.
Luke was way to competent. He had what, a week to a month of training and could suddenly take on Vader, who singlehandly killed dozens of Jedi who were far more experienced than Luke?
Posts
No.
Someone in response to my previous post suggested it didn't have to be destroyed, that it could have been gradually reformed, without all the terrible collateral damage. I... really don't think so. The institutional inertia, internal culture, and pride in those things was too set.
I think that it would be interesting if he tried to reform the Jedi on the old lines, and that was part of why they immediately fell again. The Force itself saying "nope, you got it right when you threw away your lightsaber and appealed to your father, this family stuff is actually kind of important to stay grounded. Let's reset this, you go think about it, and we'll send you a new apprentice when the time is right."
we're definitely supposed to in the Lucasverse, but everyone else making star wars stuff other than Lucas has looked at the jedi as he presented them and said "What the fuck is wrong with these people"
Entirely too many hours of media and too much real life time has been wasted in a fourteen-year jackoff fiesta about the pros and cons of celibate rat-tail weirdos as depicted in a series of terrible movies and some pretty good video games and cartoons that could have been better if they had been about HEROES WITH SWORDS instead of celibate rat-tail weirdos.
For mysterious unknowable reasons, now that the same people who did the celibate rat-tail weirdo cartoon are getting to do a new one without George Lucas over their shoulders, they are drawing heavily on the 1980s RPG-era art and design and telling stories about HEROES WITH SWORDS.
I am sure this is just mysterious coincidence of course
And yeah, it's nice to see Jedi with attachments again! Enjoying stuff instead of being all dour duty. As a fellow child of 1st Ed WEG Star Wars, it's a delight to see.
Swords are rad, yo!
I always found that whole "Strange old hobo who's terribly friendly and even charming, but has fucking mind control powers, oh and everyone calls him 'General'," distinctly weird and off-putting. And I say this as someone who really liked Alec Guinness's other work (I might be the only person here who saw Dr. Zhivago before Star Wars).
So he trains some teenager to go and meet his destiny--very wuxia film, nothing wrong with that--who can go use mind control powers and choke people telepathically. But it's okay, because he's a good guy! I mean, he clearly is, he blows up the horrible planet-destroying space station and saves the universe! The space station manned by Hungarian Nazis (granted, they're also better actors, but that's not the point).
Oh, and by the way, you know the chief bad guy? He was one of these warrior monks too. He's just what happens when one of them has a lot of bad days in a row.
Really, there was never a point where for me when I thought Luke and Obi-Wan Kenobi were "Awesome heroes with swords"--insomuch as "awesome" usually has a positive connotation. It'd be better to say "awe-inspiring (or awful) warriors with laser swords" who happen to be the heroes. When I saw the prequels they served to strip away the mysterious veneer of the Order--which can obviously be a bad thing, especially if you like them awesome and mysterious--but didn't change my impression of them. That's never been an area when I thought "What the fuck, this makes no sense! What do you mean this weird hobo everyone calls 'General' and is a mind-controlling psychic warrior monk, and trained other mind-controlling psychic warrior monks came from a creepy, disturbing order with its hand on the levers of power? I am shocked!"
To me, the prequels are bad because they are very bad films with particularly bad writing (and do a much worse job of hiding it than the original trilogy did with its occasional campy lines--or outright replacing the bad lines, e.g. Han Solo going "I know," in a moment of brilliance). They were also psychic mind controlling weirdos who sometimes become evil fucking tornadoes of destruction--there's a reason why you don't show how bacon or sausage are made, even if bacon and sausage are delicious.
But I'm also probably in the minority here, as aforementioned. I don't want to be contrary just for the sake of being contrary, but I think there is an allowance for even young viewers to look at the Cheddar monks, recognize that they're awfully powerful and dangerous, and that if they really were 'Generals' who protected the the government for 'a thousand years', something strange was going on. But I also grew up at the twilight of a capitalist one-party dictatorship, so 'Old Republic' also meant something different to me too. Maybe my childhood was just too cynical for Star Wars.
And when you mind-control someone--even if you're the good guy--that's a red flag. Alec Guinness is a good guy--he has to be a good guy--but those monks? Yeah, I wouldn't trust those weirdos.
EDIT: TO be clear, the "I know," line is a great line that replaced a more boring line--in case there was any confusion. It's one of the reasons TESB is such a great film.
I've never actually seen it in action in the movies or cartoons. Maybe it's in the novels, but it's a thing that's so obscure you may as well ignore it. Clone Wars was perfect to show this, and do it properly as a gray area - yet they didn't do anything with it.
Well, yeah, but they don't do that in the old films.
Right?
Or the new ones.
They're plenty weird without it.
Besides, when you see a couple dozen or hundred or thousand "younglings" being gradually taught how to turn the Republic's enemies into sashimi, you just assume they got them the same way they got their army: cloned war slaves. Okay, maybe not, but it's one of the questions that's left unanswered.
They imply it. "He is too old to be trained"
Also the Jedi don't abduct children. They train them with the parent's consent.
Maybe you did, but it's not supported in the movie itself. The Jedi didn't create the clone army, they don't have main authority over it though they lead it technically (the Republic does) and they show concern over it. Especially in Clone Wars. If that was the case they're the most emotionally stable "slaves" ever, which I doubt is the reason why they're there. The movies don't get into much about anything with the Jedi Order, for the real meat you have to go Clone Wars.
That was me joking (it didn't get across well, my bad). I actually speculated about how people look at their children joining in the order way back when.
tl;dr--they were probably there with their parent's blessing. I mostly just think it's odd to take on a positive view of a monastical order that, in the (rare?) event of war will draft its children into being lieutenants. Of course, I wasn't thinking of that when I first saw Star Wars because if you told me that before seeing the prequels I would've said, "Hah! Get real! Even George Lucas isn't that stupid."
The Republican Grand Army (and its armed forces in a broader sense, though it's mostly an army thing) is still made up of cloned war slaves born solely for the purpose (and from I'm told, not really intended to live very long beyond a projected military contract of a few years?). And unlike the semi-intelligent robots the other side is throwing into the same meat-grinder, they seem entirely capable of feeling pain, anxiety, and suffering more generally. I would actually say that the institutional adoption of that system is worse than having a bunch of 14-year-olds run around like the gods of battlefields with their laser swords (and only the later of these was up to the Order, I think).
To me, they've always been weird, warrior monks. The prequels just added a whole bunch of institutional creepiness.
EDIT: Totally broken quote tree, courtesy of myself.
Why probably? I can't recall any instance of the Jedi Order acting too harshly, especially since most of the canon is thrown out. And even the critique about Jedi children was very obscure back then too.
Sure a fucked up situation, one the films didn't get into but what we do know from the Clone Wars is that the clones weren't rated like slaves by the Jedi (the one who did was clearly a bad guy) which they didn't plan on or like, but had to go along with for various reasons. Those being, being ordered to by the Republic government (which answers to the guy who created them secretly in the first place for evil purposes), did so reluctantly and being woefully undermanned in a galactic war the Republic barely matched even with the clones. This has nothing to do with how they recruit within their order.
Sure its weird, and slightly creepy. But they're not Sith Lords by any stretch.
As I recall, there were a few exceptional circumstances where the parents later objected, or situations changed--that's why "probably".
And I never claimed they were the bad guys, of course, just weird and more than a little creepy--though the greater warning to take away from that might be the fact that the actual bad guys (or rather, the worst among them) are the crazies the Order unintentionally but invariably produce every so often. But yes, those troops (by contrast) are cloned war slaves of the Republican government, not the Cheddar monks exclusively (themselves an institution within the government)--in case there was any confusion.
I doubt in most cases, that the parents agreed to their children being turned into emotionless robots, whom are never allowed to visit their family again. Once they are halfway across the galaxy, most people really have no way to get them back.
Abducted under false pretenses?
Abducted with consent?
Where was this shown as an actual thing that occurred?
edit: Keep in mind most of Legends got throw out of Disney canon too.
If you think the Order's powerful--you should see the legal counsel they have on retainer.
Which part? The actual "abduction's"? I am not sure we really have examples of that anymore, since we only really see Anakin being inducted. Were there any clone wars episodes where they showed the Jedi collecting kids from their parents? I remember some youngling episodes, but they were already in the order at that point.
As for never seeing their parents again, Anakin leaves his mother in slavery, not even knowing she had been bought by someone else/married, until she died. That means there was zero contact after he was taken.
Like in this instance I can understand why she wouldn't care, it was a far better life for him (or would have been...).
Past that, I am not sure of any specific examples outside of legends, since it isn't something they have really touched on. I know originally Dooku didn't know who his parents were until far after his training had ended, and he was royalty. So I doubt they were expecting him to "disappear" when he went away for training. "Sure, take the heir to my throne, I didn't really need him anyway..."
I expect the new films will end up touching on this a bit, with Luke's new order.
(Or perhaps the records were 'curated' even later on, to pass on to posterity a more ... 'palatable' version of history and/or what following the Code gets you.)
Clone Wars did what I wish more fans were capable of, which is to ignore stupid stuff instead of endlessly masticating and relitigating it over and over for literally a decade and a half.
The prequels were terrible films. They were terrible cinema, they were terrible as prequels to the existing stories, and they had a couple of questionable implications which were seized on really hard by ancillary media and fandom as "proof" of...something.
But the third thing is an illustration of the first two things. It is as much an example of terrible decision-making as bad dialogue or ill-begotten CGI. It's like if someone amateurishly wrote and drew a comic about how Captain America was a cowardly racist. You don't go "oh well this thing looks like a third-grader drew it and half the words are misspelt and out of order but man, fuck Captain America and his minority-hating ways!" The sensible reader looks at the evidence, concludes that this whole thing was a mistake, throw the comic in the trash, and moves on.
It is okay to disregard the content of self-evidently terrible stories based on their self-evident terribleness. Real people in the real world don't have to live lives beholden to Canon.
To wit:
What this actually means is that George Lucas and the KOTOR writers were not, you know, personally comparing notes and it's not anything more significant than that. For my part, I personally think that "only seven Jedi have ever left the order" seems somewhat implausible in a way that I completely expect from an old person who doesn't really get how big a galaxy is or how long 20,000 years are, while "literally anything can turn a good person into a cackling sadist within seconds SO WHO ARE THE REAL VILLAINS, EH?" is profoundly dumb and not really one of the elements of the KOTOR games that has worn well.
I mean, you're free to put some kind of sinister spin on that discrepancy if your heart is set on that, but why not just shrug at it and move on?
Which - to bring us back to the topic of the thread - is what Disney is basically doing. For reasons that may be professional courtesy or may be entirely contractual in nature, they are not going around and outright contradicting any of the prequel films or the Clone Wars cartoon, but there's a very obvious shift in emphasis. When Kanan shares a loving kiss with his wife, we're not meant to think UH OH, HOW OMINOUS. When Rey worries about Finn, it's not depicted as her becoming unhealthily attached.
Disney's over that shit. I realize that for some people that must feel like some kind of departure or even a betrayal, but for me, and the fans in my life who came of age with the original movies, it feels like a homecoming.
Anakin wasn't abducted. No, nothing like that occurred in the cartoon - that's why your criticism is so odd. That sounds like something the Sith would do, though.
I wouldn't use Anakin as an average case, he is not treated by average at any stage of his recruitment. And I wouldn't say what they did was bad, aside from not taking his mother with them. Which I agree is terrible for them to do, we are given no explanation for why they did that either so it's hard to judge it clearly since we don't have all the facts for the decision. This happens a lot in the prequels btw.
In Legends. It wasn't touched on much there either IIRC which is why I'm not bothered by it. How did Dooku end up there, and why did they do that to him? Was that common? Did they only do that to royalty? Did his parents give him away freely? Was he kidnapped? I don't know the full context for this to judge. Are they any more examples? There had better be if you're arguing this was a standard practice for the Order. And I wouldn't exactly call that an abduction if his parents didn't care about him and he was willing to do go.
Hopefully.
Yeah, it's a shame we can't do that to the largely terrible prequel trilogy either.
Though in the future, who knows? One way or another, it's probably not an uncalled for to view this as a long-term project open potentially many interpretations down the line (ideally each one improving on the last).
In other words, assuming that Disney wanted to do away with the most obnoxious parts of the prequels, would they be better off just completely ignoring them, or coming up with retcons?
I'd guarantee it. See what happened when Disney purged canon, it wasn't pretty.
I see it as an eventuality, the question is when. It may be 5 to 20 years but it's going to happen. Especially since they have a frosty relationship with Lucas.
Although it would probably be profitable, "Come see the first 3 episodes as they were meant to be!", so maybe they will.
Nah, it'll be easy to tell which is which.
Yes, and this time the quality will be higher. I'd like for Ahsoka to be there too.
There's going to be fan backlash regardless, because some fans are terrible people (See: "Black storm trooper, wut?", "Rey's entirely too competent, wut?", "Female protaganist, wut?), and some of these terrible people like to hear themselves talk in every form of media possible.
I think if they could put out some pre-prequels they could show the Jedi Order that was a force for law and justice to the entire galaxy slowly declining into what we saw in the Prequels, all with the best of intentions, (being driven by subtle Sith machinations?). You could put down the Midichlorian test showing a persons force potential as related to the symbiotes drawn to people strong in the force, but the holocron (or memory module or whatever) that that information was held in was lost or destroyed during an attack on the temple. So, they're left knowing the blood test for midichlorians relates directly to a users force strength but don't know why. Someone puts forth the theory that the MC (sorry, I can't type that word anymore) are the source of force power and that seems logical enough for now, so let's go with that.
Show the best and brightest of the Jedi being drawn far from their seats of power and killed. Weaker Jedi being corrupted and turned to the dark side by the loss of their friends and companions. Maybe some ominous black robed figures in the background advising planetary rulers and sowing discord. Could even have a schism setting the stage for a Jedi civil war leading to more lost and corrupted knowledge.
With the old EU thrown out, there's a lot you could do there. Unfortunately, anything you do is just going to contribute to the construction of a new EU. And of course, bitching and moaning from the fanbase.
No, that's not it. Crazy fans can have ideas you agree with, it gets irritating when they do are on your side. It's not the opinion by itself (though this depends on a lot for factors and how far down the rabbit hole they go), it's how they defend it.
I might be a tad more extreme in my feelings on the issue.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
Look, guys, we've got a sarlacc right over there. No need to go find a bottomless pit somewhere.