Dodgy/Spurious Trades

OlerheadOlerhead KrytentonAustraliaRegistered User regular
Having just returned home from PAX Aus, my mind is aflutter with thoughts of pins and pin trading. I had fully intended to get into the hobby more last year, though the Australia pin of my Aus set went AWOL (just dropped off my lanyard, I was sad at the time but thinking back on it I'm kinda devastated) and then I traded the rest of the Aus set (unaware of how much of a hot commodity they were) for Gronok, Draken and Juggernaut pins that went missing thanks to some careless removalists (aka friends) when I moved to Canberra. I'm sure they're around somewhere, just in storage. But I digress.

While wandering around by myself, I ended up getting into pin conversations with basically anyone and everyone who had pins. The 15 Year Anniversary and Valentine's Day pins I managed to snag through staff trades got asked after a couple of times but I didn't really want to part with them. But at one point I saw somebody with one of either of those pins (can't quite remember which one) making a trade for something I didn't think was quite as rare.

My question is, can there be such a thing as a dodgy or spurious trade? Besides the obvious cheating of not delivering the pin that was promised or whatever, does it all just come down to what somebody is willing to part with in exchange for something else? Have you ever seen a trade that you thought was almost completely one sided? Do you say something at that point or do you just stay out of it? I don't impose myself on other people's conversations, but I got asked at one point about the pin the guy was trading for since I was nearby and my answer was just a non-commital 'Yeah, it's a pretty good one.'

I'm relatively new to the hobby myself, like I said. I did try to start at PAX Aus 2013 but it fell in a heap. I got off to a much better start this year as my lanyard implies, but I'm still trying to come to grips with the whole dynamic of the community (as well as finding out just how sought-after my Aus 2014 Core sets and 10th Anniversary pins are gonna be.)

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  • KurpavKurpav Registered User regular
    I've made trades where I felt I really got the better end of the deal, but it only comes after confirming that the person values the pin I have just as much. Objective data about any pin value is still being collected and at this point, aside from a couple pins, most values fluctuate pretty wildly depending on time of year, or availability on Ebay, and what the personal situations are.

    I was able to collect all of East 2013 at Prime this year, but because I valued them so highly, at times I would trade 2-3 for one. It was worth it to me at the time. I know of one trade where the guy gave 12 pins for 1 last Prime. Everybody went away happy.

    On the Hunt: Star Trek, Gold Overwatch, Glitch
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  • OlerheadOlerhead Krytenton AustraliaRegistered User regular
    Kurpav wrote: »
    I've made trades where I felt I really got the better end of the deal, but it only comes after confirming that the person values the pin I have just as much. Objective data about any pin value is still being collected and at this point, aside from a couple pins, most values fluctuate pretty wildly depending on time of year, or availability on Ebay, and what the personal situations are.

    I was able to collect all of East 2013 at Prime this year, but because I valued them so highly, at times I would trade 2-3 for one. It was worth it to me at the time. I know of one trade where the guy gave 12 pins for 1 last Prime. Everybody went away happy.

    That's a really good point. As long as people are happy, I suppose it doesn't matter at all. I traded my Aus Chandra for 80s Gabe and had someone tell me it'd probably be easier to get my hands on 80s Gabe than Aus Chandra, but I don't regret it. I had a couple offers for 80s Gabe after I got it but wasn't about to let it go.

  • fishfishmonkeyhatfishfishmonkeyhat Freelance Pin Man Newcastle, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    This wasn't the trade I made on the first morning in the merch line for the AUS13 logo for the 15th Anniversary pin was it? I thought that was a pretty good deal both ways.

    OH GOD WHAT IF I'M A MONSTER?!

  • grgemonkeygrgemonkey Registered User regular
    If you're happy it doesn't matter but I think there's a difference between being happy and informed vs happy and ignorant.

    To me the 2nd one is still a little dubious. If you're purposely withholding information to make your side of the trade better, I'm not really a fan of that. I saw a guy try to scam a Carl (which a new trader lucked out at Fehlauer's game of chance *shakes fist*, I was going for that!) for something far far less and I did actually step in, granted I didn't step in aggressively, I just went in like "Oh wow a Carl! Hey good job man, those sold out in like 4hrs! Gonna be a popular pin I think!". That did stop the new trader from trading and he later thanked me for letting him know.

    So, to me, happy and ignorant might make you feel fine and they may never found out but if/when they do, you made some one feel pretty crappy in the long run. If you want to live with that, that's your business but it doesn't excuse it.

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  • NefilyNefily Melbourne AURegistered User regular
    I traded a few limited editions (valentines & 15th) for aus13 pins Was fine with it :D didn't think they made my other trades less because they where not limited for 13s I made sure everyone was happy with what they got a few saw me later and thanked me for them again!
    You just gotta go with everyone being happy because so many people value things differently!

    Olerhead
  • OlerheadOlerhead Krytenton AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2014
    This wasn't the trade I made on the first morning in the merch line for the AUS13 logo for the 15th Anniversary pin was it? I thought that was a pretty good deal both ways.

    OH GOD WHAT IF I'M A MONSTER?!

    Nope. It was on Sunday. But it was a similar trade. But yeah, like everyone has been saying. If everyone else is into it, it probably isn't a big deal. All my more precious pins came from either staff trades or from someone who got something they wanted just as much and I think probably knew more than I did.
    grgemonkey wrote: »
    To me the 2nd one is still a little dubious. If you're purposely withholding information to make your side of the trade better, I'm not really a fan of that. I saw a guy try to scam a Carl (which a new trader lucked out at Fehlauer's game of chance *shakes fist*, I was going for that!) for something far far less and I did actually step in, granted I didn't step in aggressively, I just went in like "Oh wow a Carl! Hey good job man, those sold out in like 4hrs! Gonna be a popular pin I think!". That did stop the new trader from trading and he later thanked me for letting him know.

    I think that's fair. That's along the lines of what I tried to do. Point out that it was a limited edition pin and he ought to get something he really wanted for it. I don't think I could handle scamming anybody ... I enjoy collecting pins too much, I would hate to sour somebody's opinion of something I'm digging so much.
    Nefily wrote: »
    I traded a few limited editions (valentines & 15th) for aus13 pins Was fine with it :D didn't think they made my other trades less because they where not limited for 13s I made sure everyone was happy with what they got a few saw me later and thanked me for them again!
    You just gotta go with everyone being happy because so many people value things differently!

    That's the way I see it now. Although I really felt awful when people wanted to trade and they didn't have anything I particularly wanted. I love trading.

    Olerhead on
  • AyefkayAyefkay Queensland, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    I traded my 15th ann. for an ETC. To me that was a fair trade, i know what it took to get that ETC (pretty much just a really long line) which balanced the 'limited edition' factor of the 15th ann, But generally speaking, everyone's going to place their own value on a pin, if both parties agree then its probably not that huge an issue.

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  • zerzhulzerzhul Registered User, Moderator mod
    I think if you purposefully withhold information, you're being a goose. Otherwise, it just comes down to people being happy.

    Where the community has to be careful is crossing the boundary into trading with people who just have no sense of value on the pins and just want the ones they want. Like if a kid tried to trade you their DLC pin for your lookout because the kid loves lookouts. On one hand, both sides are happy, but on the other hand, someone just took a DLC away from a kid. It's tough cause you don't want to spurn a trade from someone who is just into trading, and thinks that part is fun, but it's important as a group to not take advantage of situations like that to make your own collection better.

    fishfishmonkeyhatKamelon
  • dmosineedmosinee Davenport, IARegistered User regular
    If it's a staff member, I say any trade is fair game -- as it's not even their personal collection you're digging into.

    With other mere mortals, everyone is going to have their own level of lopsided trade they can sleep at night with. There's no way to enforce any kind of standard without destroying the whole hobby, so it's just going to have to come down to the individuals involved.

    The only trade I would ever step in and info-spew about would be a DLC trade, and only because it is so far above everything else in existence that there is no conceivable trade that could be made in good faith.

    Digital Lanyard, I love trades - https://www.pinnypals.com/pals/dmosinee
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  • SerpicoBCSerpicoBC Registered User regular
    I've been on either side of a trade from a "who got the better deal" perspective. I've never been in a situation where I walked away feeling guilty, mercifully.

    I've also never been in a position where I needed to intervene as an objector if I saw a bad trade go down. Like @dmosinee, I would only do that if I saw someone giving away a DLC or maybe an original PAX Aus set.

    Ajaxon
  • dmosineedmosinee Davenport, IARegistered User regular
    This thread got me thinking though, here's a thought exercise for y'all:

    What would you let someone trade you the DLC for, that you could live with afterward?

    Personally, I could pull the trigger on trading my Hanna + Carl + 15th Anniversary + Full East 2013 Set for their DLC and still sleep at night -- although I would probably feel a little bit guilty.

    Digital Lanyard, I love trades - https://www.pinnypals.com/pals/dmosinee
    http://pinmash.info - Two pins enter, one pins leaves... then the other pin leaves with a lower Elo rating
  • SerpicoBCSerpicoBC Registered User regular
    For the DLC pin, which I love, I would trade away something like:

    Leeroy, D&D 40th, Hanna, and Carl, plus a set from any PAX.

  • TheAggroCraigTheAggroCraig Ultimate Lucky Douchebag MassachusettsRegistered User regular
    I would willingly rip myself off for a dlc. Almost anything would be up for trade.

  • orthancstoneorthancstone TexasRegistered User regular
    dmosinee wrote: »
    The only trade I would ever step in and info-spew about would be a DLC trade, and only because it is so far above everything else in existence that there is no conceivable trade that could be made in good faith.

    Still don't like this mentality one bit because it leads to everyone projecting their value of DLC on another person's derived value.

    Rare pin or not, it isn't up to the overall community to set a minimum value for everyone else to uphold.

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  • GerzzogGerzzog OhioRegistered User regular
    I would willingly rip myself off for a dlc. Almost anything would be up for trade.

    Agreed lol. I'd likely give all my trade pins (Of which I have many) for a DLC, and I would be happy for the deal.

  • aleph0aleph0 Registered User regular
    I feel that the vast majority of people in possession of a DLC would by this point in time be cognizant of its rarity, and it's extremely unlikely someone would just stumble upon one "in the wild", so to speak. So I'm not super concerned that such a scenario would go down.

    Qumaden
  • dmosineedmosinee Davenport, IARegistered User regular
    aleph0 wrote: »
    I feel that the vast majority of people in possession of a DLC would by this point in time be cognizant of its rarity, and it's extremely unlikely someone would just stumble upon one "in the wild", so to speak. So I'm not super concerned that such a scenario would go down.

    True, I've never heard of an actual person-to-person trade of the DLC pin (staff trades don't count), and there likely won't ever be one unless some more ultra rares appear to fill the current gigantic gulf between #2 and #1. Problem being that even if you could muster up a 30 to 1 trade for it that was even-sided, it's unlikely that the owner is going to want those 30 pins.

    Digital Lanyard, I love trades - https://www.pinnypals.com/pals/dmosinee
    http://pinmash.info - Two pins enter, one pins leaves... then the other pin leaves with a lower Elo rating
  • GerzzogGerzzog OhioRegistered User regular
    I have myself "moderated" pin trades for my friends before. But this was purely based on rarity and I did so to help my friends not get taken. While I do not think the persons we were trading with were out to screw us, my friends were kinda newish and did not realize the inherit worth of their own pins. While I would not say that worth trumps happiness, knowledge can help to ensure that the person doesn't lose their happiness later when they find out they traded a rare pin for an extremely common one. The end goal is that everyone has a good time and gets pins they like, but the knowledge is growing slower than the trade environment.

  • grgemonkeygrgemonkey Registered User regular
    This discussions actually overlaps another discussion that is often sidelined.

    The monetary value of pins. When we're discussing this sort of thing, I think the term "value" here can't really just be "common, uncommon, rare" etc, after all, often what defines those categories is the monetary value.

    So while it's fine to say, "I don't feel bad trading pinX for pinY", can you really say the same thing stated as, "I don't feel bad trading $80 for $20"?

    It's easy to make justifications and excuses and "I don't look at the money side" etc. But the fact of the matter is, the money side exists, it's real and it's even *more* real for casual or non-collectors, as they are the most likely people to want to sell their pins to bigger collectors and reap a small reward for their effort. Since they are not really pursuing the hobby that much.

    Now naturally it isn't necessary to be dollar for dollar exactly, prices fluctuate and a 10-20% differential probably isn't going to be a bad trade. But you really need to ask yourself, if this person knew what they could sell both pins for, would they really accept this trade?

    Some people will, however I wager most people won't.

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    http://pinmash.info - Head-To-Head battle of pins! Choose the most desirable.
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  • OlerheadOlerhead Krytenton AustraliaRegistered User regular
    I don't think I've ever even seen a DLC pin. I had plenty of people tell me they had one while trading (do I believe it? Maybe) but weren't willing to bring it. Which is fair enough. I lost my AUS 2013 logo pin at PAX last year and am still mourning it - I don't think I would ever sleep again if I had a DLC pin and lost it.

  • PedroAsaniPedroAsani Brotherhood of the Squirrel [Prime]Registered User regular
    The first morning one of the trades I made outside whilst trying to shift a 3-day pass (Duckies brother couldn't make it) was for an Aus 13 Pin in exchange for the new Merch. I explained that he could get it from the Merch booth, and that what he had was a lot rarer. I offered more, but he just wanted to have the Merch. He had a Fleshreaper that he wanted to "balance" the lanyard with.

    I do feel like it was lopsided, to anyone in the community certainly. But this guy was happy, and I offered a lot more, so I don't feel too bad.

    At the Pin trade, there was a guy looking to trade the new Magic Pin for the Corgi. Jamie didn't want him to trade because it was too valuable (and she really wanted it) so I gave the guy a Lookouts Pin, and then offered to trade him something more equal. I forget what, I pulled about 6 Pins from the bag including several other MTG Pins. He got a new Pin and headed back to the Magic booth to replace the Pin he just traded.

    I think that the larger view is that not everyone with Pins is a collector. What might seem unfair or spurious to our band of squirrel-headed zealots could be a trade that someone remembers as a good part of their PAX. I have to say that I didn't see any bad trades going on. What I did see was a lot of generosity from the veteran collectors to the new ones, particularly at the trading event. Giving away Pins or just advice, pointing out good Pins on the Staff trading tables and really just being the best people.

    I did encounter one person at Prime 13 that thought differently (if you listen to the podcast you will know who) but East 14 and Prime 14 there was the same feeling that if both sides were happy and information was shared, whatever the trade was it was a good one. I'm looking forward to that being the case at South 15.

  • FitzchivalryFitzchivalry PAXAUS Cookie Brigade Coordinator Orrstrahleeeeah mate!Registered User regular
    I'm very much of the opinion that as long as both parties are informed, then its fair game.

    I got a couple of Aus 13 pins for basic things like Kempers - I made sure to repeat multiple times that the Aus pins were very valuable, and fetched upwards of $150 each on ebay, but the people I traded to didn't care. They didn't use eBay, didn't care that the Aus pins were valuable and Kempers weren't - all they wanted was all of the pretty kitty pins. Even declined to taking some other pins as they only liked Kemper.
    I felt okay with that, as I knew I had ensured they were aware of what they were doing. They were happy, I was happy, it was win-win.

    zerzhul
  • fishfishmonkeyhatfishfishmonkeyhat Freelance Pin Man Newcastle, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    What about vendors?

    As I was leaving on Sunday I got my brother to hold my pin covered pin trading bag and then I told the guy holding the pins at the Sunset Overdrive booth that I had played it yesterday but had to run off because I got a phone call and then someone told me I was supposed to get a "pin" or something and then he gave me a pin and I looked at it and was all like "oh is this it? Hmm! Thanks!" and oh god I am a monster oh no

  • OlerheadOlerhead Krytenton AustraliaRegistered User regular
    What about vendors?

    As I was leaving on Sunday I got my brother to hold my pin covered pin trading bag and then I told the guy holding the pins at the Sunset Overdrive booth that I had played it yesterday but had to run off because I got a phone call and then someone told me I was supposed to get a "pin" or something and then he gave me a pin and I looked at it and was all like "oh is this it? Hmm! Thanks!" and oh god I am a monster oh no

    Naw, I put my Sunset Overdrive pin in my pocket and played it again to get a second one. If they were that wary about it, they should've done what WotC did last year and put a little mark on your pass. My only regret is not doing it more and also not doing the MtG Sarkhan deal more than once.

  • KurpavKurpav Registered User regular
    edited November 2014
    So I've set up trades with 3 people over the last 48 hours and another thought occurred to me. Personal Brain Squirrels will always be an un-quantifiable factor in any trade. The amount of satisfaction I'll receive from acquiring a certain pin is wholly individual and may totally skew the perceived equality of the trade. So even if both people aren't informed of the monetary value, some will be making trades to satisfy a deeper darker dirtier compulsion.

    Kurpav on
    On the Hunt: Star Trek, Gold Overwatch, Glitch
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  • dmosineedmosinee Davenport, IARegistered User regular
    Kurpav wrote: »
    some will be making trades to satisfy a deeper darker dirtier compulsion.

    I'm imagining a pinny arcade trade masochist:
    "Oh yeah, take my Leeroy and give me a scratched Lookouts Leader... SO HOT!"

    Digital Lanyard, I love trades - https://www.pinnypals.com/pals/dmosinee
    http://pinmash.info - Two pins enter, one pins leaves... then the other pin leaves with a lower Elo rating
  • KurpavKurpav Registered User regular
    dmosinee wrote: »
    I'm imagining a pinny arcade trade masochist:
    "Oh yeah, take my Leeroy and give me a scratched Lookouts Leader... SO HOT!"
    I once had a WoW player run up to me in game with an exact mirror image of my Tauren character. Told me they had been lusting after me for 6 months and wanted to know if I'd "play" with them in Thunder Bluff.

    On the Hunt: Star Trek, Gold Overwatch, Glitch
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  • dchoydchoy OregonRegistered User regular
    Kurpav wrote: »
    dmosinee wrote: »
    I'm imagining a pinny arcade trade masochist:
    "Oh yeah, take my Leeroy and give me a scratched Lookouts Leader... SO HOT!"
    I once had a WoW player run up to me in game with an exact mirror image of my Tauren character. Told me they had been lusting after me for 6 months and wanted to know if I'd "play" with them in Thunder Bluff.

    I think you should have told them no and to 8-) deal with it.

    PAX Prime attendee since 2008.

    Another year of Prime gone by... commence the struggle!

    https://www.pinnypals.com/pals/dchoy
  • pobblebonkpobblebonk Registered User regular
    At Pax Aus last year my friend traded Mike his Merch pin for the CTS pin. Mike even told him that the Merch was much rarer but he just wanted that pin. Bet that didn't last very long.
    Imagine my surprise this year at the trading session when I espied a 2013 merch pin in amongst the pile of Merch 2.0s .
    I felt pretty awful trading Josh Price his own face back for a more valuable pin on the table, he looked crestfallen.

    Geometric Cubefishfishmonkeyhat
  • OlerheadOlerhead Krytenton AustraliaRegistered User regular
    pobblebonk wrote: »
    I felt pretty awful trading Josh Price his own face back for a more valuable pin on the table, he looked crestfallen.

    I don't think I could do that - not to try and make you feel worse or anything. I know the face pins aren't all that rare but I feel accomplished with mine since I only got them when I spotted staff members out on the floor (or 'in the wild').

    But I think the idea of as long as everybody is happy then a trade is fine is a pretty good one.

  • KurpavKurpav Registered User regular
    I've known Josh to be a little dramatic in his responses. I doubt he was offended at all.

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  • grgemonkeygrgemonkey Registered User regular
    pobblebonk wrote: »
    At Pax Aus last year my friend traded Mike his Merch pin for the CTS pin. Mike even told him that the Merch was much rarer but he just wanted that pin. Bet that didn't last very long.
    Imagine my surprise this year at the trading session when I espied a 2013 merch pin in amongst the pile of Merch 2.0s .
    I felt pretty awful trading Josh Price his own face back for a more valuable pin on the table, he looked crestfallen.

    CTS is getting pretty popular actually, I'd start holding on to those. Noticing an increased demand, probably new collectors who no longer have easy access to them.

    That's the sort of thing one would expect anyway, older pins that once were common are starting to turn in to uncommons.

    https://pinnypals.com - Be there or be your least favourite shaped pin. Pin trading and more.
    http://pinmash.info - Head-To-Head battle of pins! Choose the most desirable.
    http://pinnywise.com - iOS pin collection tracking app.
    ----
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  • OlerheadOlerhead Krytenton AustraliaRegistered User regular
    grgemonkey wrote: »
    CTS is getting pretty popular actually, I'd start holding on to those. Noticing an increased demand, probably new collectors who no longer have easy access to them.
    That's the sort of thing one would expect anyway, older pins that once were common are starting to turn in to uncommons.

    I will treasure my CTS, then.

  • orthancstoneorthancstone TexasRegistered User regular
    I still want a CTS badly, and really REALLY hope the staff bring some of them to South since it is the inaugural event.

    PAX South 2018 - Jan 12-14!
    Pins!
  • OlerheadOlerhead Krytenton AustraliaRegistered User regular
    I still want a CTS badly, and really REALLY hope the staff bring some of them to South since it is the inaugural event.

    Keep an eye out. I'm sure there'll be some around at the pin trading event.

  • SerpicoBCSerpicoBC Registered User regular
    I still want a CTS badly, and really REALLY hope the staff bring some of them to South since it is the inaugural event.

    Worst case scenario, I have an extra and will be there.

  • orthancstoneorthancstone TexasRegistered User regular
    Yeah, I figure some of y'all will be carrying CTS as well. So there's definitely hope.

    I imagine there's potential for increased demand due to first South PAX, so I think the staff should come well equipped ;) :D.

    PAX South 2018 - Jan 12-14!
    Pins!
  • Geometric CubeGeometric Cube Registered User regular
    I still want a CTS badly, and really REALLY hope the staff bring some of them to South since it is the inaugural event.

    I bet they will have some. At AUS 2014, Mike and Jerry did a signing. After getting your stuff signed, they had a ton of CTS pins to trade as well as their other three pins. And they allowed 4 trades.

  • Manic2kManic2k Brotherhood of the Squirrel [AUS]Registered User regular
    At the same time I saw really cool things with people giving people their first pin or just one because.

    our community rocks~!

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  • pobblebonkpobblebonk Registered User regular
    I traded a Mom pin to a nice lady in line for a fun size Mars bar. :-P

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