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[Fear [The Walking Thread]]: Also fear SPOILERS, of which there are many in here!

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  • LaCabraLaCabra Registered User regular
    They dealt with it briefly in season 2 back when they weren't happy to just kill people. More mouths to feed and all that jazz. But yeah, they shoulda talked to him more. I think Rick was just like "oh, he's Negan? job done"

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  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited March 2016
    I think after so many groups and so many surprises, the desire not to take chances anymore and not really giving a fuck about interrogation and figuring out lies from truth is tempting. I mean the show doesn't present it as the right choice necessarily, but after years of that shit it's an understandable one.

    I mean yeah they could get Intel, but you're always one step away from someone slipping their bonds or something going wrong. I mean the saviours group that captured carol and maggie would've been a lot better off if they'd just shot them, but hindsight and such

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    Carol's conflicted nature is definitely legit. She wasn't just playing an act. My problem with what they're doing with her is IMO it's coming on too fast. This is the same Carol that not long ago was telling bowl cut Mcgregor that he was going to be eaten alive, killing kids, etc.

    I actually like Carol a lot more as the cold, practical person who realizes that's what you have to be in that world, but without going over the edge. Instead, they've decided to go for "you can't be that way without becoming Paula," which I don't buy. But it is what it is.

    My biggest problem is that it's happening too fast and to me and my viewing group doesn't feel natural. Now Maggie, with her it feels natural. When she is telling Glenn she can't do this any more, it feels more naturally developed to me based on the things she's gone through. So it's not going to come as a surprise or anything when she decides to go to Hilltop and stay there.

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  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    whenever you think things are moving too fast in this show

    please remember the farm and the search for sophia.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I think the shift for Carol works well because of the retcon that showed she's always been struggling with this, she just is really good at hiding it.

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    LMAO. No doubt, they're generally better at pacing now than they used to be. But this is not about plot pacing. This is about individual character development, and I just feel like they're having this "Carol feels remorse about her kills" stuff come on too fast. I would've liked to see it be a slower burn if we had to get it.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    LMAO. No doubt, they're generally better at pacing now than they used to be. But this is not about plot pacing. This is about individual character development, and I just feel like they're having this "Carol feels remorse about her kills" stuff come on too fast. I would've liked to see it be a slower burn if we had to get it.

    Yeah I'm with you, it didn't feel "earned" we went from Carol the wolf executor to this conflicted one and I dunno I like you preferred assassin home maker Carol to makes bad decisions because she can't kill anymore Carol. I mean letting Paula go was the wrong move, it was so the wrong move and yet she's there trying to make it for what? I don't get it.

    Thank god Paula didn't kidnap any men, that lady is a nut shooter you got to watch for her....

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Well, Can't-Kill Carol shot a dude in the face and then set a room full of dudes on fire, sooo.

    She refrained from killing one person. Two, if you count the girl who she was probably going to kill before zombies made it a moot point.

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  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    So, some viewers are calling the episode too slow and for others the character development is too fast?

    Er, ok, focusing on Carol for a second, didn't she show some curious at the time laboured pauses as she was fighting off the Wolves' attack? What about how she was even in a position to get captured was because she wanted to hang back from the assault on the Savior stronghold?

    My guess is that maybe this will be an aspect of the show that will make for better viewing on Netflix or DVD season without commercial and episodic breaks. Morgan is still going to be a slog though :P

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  • pirateluigipirateluigi Arr, it be me. Registered User regular
    It's not that she can't kill. It's that she really doesn't want to. She'll still do it if it has to be done, but she's now less sure where that line is. I think it's great for her character, because as awesome as Terminator Carol was, there wasn't any room for emotional growth.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited March 2016
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Well, Can't-Kill Carol shot a dude in the face and then set a room full of dudes on fire, sooo.

    She refrained from killing one person. Two, if you count the girl who she was probably going to kill before zombies made it a moot point.

    And that's kind of my issue with the ep as well, they still had her doing bad ass Carol things, but at the same point she seemed more conflicted about it than her actions represent to me.

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    There was still room for emotional growth with Carol, finding a connection with Tobin, etc. They absolutely didn't have to go from that to "i'm going to let a member of a gang of extortionists who baseball bat a 16 year old to send a message go free," plus i'm going to death grip this filed up cross and make my hands bleed because i'm so fucked up over this stuff.

    Make no mistake, I have no problem with Carol having remorse over killing humans, not wanting to cross that line she fears will make her lose her humanity, etc. I just felt like the show hadn't yet earned the pace with which she's moving in that direction.

    Again, Maggie is an example of how they're handling a character well. She's getting this slow burn that's leading up to her being ready to give up the lifestyle they've had for so long to just settle in Hilltop, and it's been building for a while.

    With Carol, it feels to me like the writers only recently decided she was going to do this, and so now they're trying to retcon it by having her have this journal of the people she's killed, etc. But it doesn't feel earned yet, to me at least.

    PreacherSo It Goes
  • MulletudeMulletude Registered User regular
    I think Rick shot the guy because he knew from the answers he had been receiving he was getting nowhere with him. It was ice cold but then their job was to wipe out the saviors so...

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Mulletude wrote: »
    I think Rick shot the guy because he knew from the answers he had been receiving he was getting nowhere with him. It was ice cold but then their job was to wipe out the saviors so...

    Well that and Rick hadn't killed anyone in a couple hours and god knows he gets cranky.

    Honestly I love Rick. As a character he seems to be pretty much dialed in to "save my people fuck everyone else". If anything that's what Carol should be shooting for!

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    I'm a little worried knowing that

    mild comic spoilers
    After all out war, Rick is going to adopt some of this pacifism too, leave Negan alive, etc.

    I figure Morgan's going to weld up a cage, then he's going to die and Rick's going to honor his memory by becoming a pacifist until the next big threat forces him out of it.

    And i'm just here wanting Rick to stay just how he is right now.

    Preacher
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    The main thing I didn't like about Carol's little crisis was that it happened at a time when it was the least convenient, and they've already done that exact same thing at least twice a season since season 3.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Well, "needing to murder someone and feeling conflicted" is always going to come at an inconvenient time, by definition.

    You can't mine a lot of drama out of "I know I need to stab Carl in the face after he took the last cookie, but... I just... can't."

    But seriously, we are talking about Carol's abrupt pacifism in the context of her upping her lifetime murder rating by 25% in the span of one episode. It didn't even come out of nowhere, either - it was prompted by Morgan's talk with her.

    If there's ever going to be a crack in her facade, you have to have a first one. So we did.

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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote: »
    The main thing I didn't like about Carol's little crisis was that it happened at a time when it was the least convenient, and they've already done that exact same thing at least twice a season since season 3.

    If Maggie wasn't there watching her, Carol wouldn't have hesitated, I think. Again, the writers are tinkering with Carol which signals to me they're prepping her for a big, flashy, live-grenade-in-each-hand sacrifice before the season is over.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    So some "cast reactions" have come out to the finale of the season, and

    speculation on season finale based on comic knowledge.
    The actor who plays Carol said she couldn't speak for 20 minutes after reading the finale script. A couple other actors like Daryl's said a similar thing about how intense it was. Others were saying how they cried. Glenn's actor said he loved it. Just further confirms to me that he's the one getting Lucille'd for sure. After he tweeted about lazy writing when they filmed his fake death in the first half of this season, I got the vibe he's a bit ready to leave the show.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I swear they have ginned up this "Cast reactions" before. Or some other show did, its such a dumb thing. "Oh my I was so shocked to read a script I didn't know what to do!"

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  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    Ugh, every other week, it seems like we read the same thing "Aww, that character developed ... they are going to die for sure."

    We are eminently poised to expect heart ache and misery on this show as viewers. There could all of a sudden be a bright flash of light and random characters from like Hill Top viewing a mushroom cloud in the distance and someone viewing the show would say "Well, that was to be expected, RIP"

    Maybe, just maybe, we should chill with the idea that the group hasn't had a season 1 character croak since ... Andrea. Season 2, not since Beth. Rick's group is a pretty well character developed bunch at this point, yet there they are still alive and kicking.

    Couldn't it be just as likely that the truly meta thing to expect is that the show runners know we expect everyone to die, so the unexpected thing is to not kill em? Sorta like what happened with Glen. But perhaps that's the point, every week someone says "They are going to die for sure." its not an indication that they are actually going to die, its more an indication the show runners are doing a good job in keeping tension and gravitas in the show.

    At least take solace in the thought that if you keep predicting so-and-so is going to die, eventually you'll be right? Its not like even Rick gets out of Zombieland alive but I know I won't be shocked if its because of something like old age while Judith waits to perform their death rites at his bed side.

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  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    What if everyone gets Lucille'd except for Glenn?

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  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    Are we just not bothering to spoiler the speculation from the comics anymore?

    I guess it has been brought up enough, obliquely, and not so obliquely that it is almost impossible not to know the reference.

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  • WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Registered User regular
    What if everyone gets Lucille'd except for Glenn?

    Pretty much every likely possibility will leave me very upset, but I would love to see a fight scene where everybody but Glenn takes a fatal blow to the head in rapid succession. Cue Glenn killing off the last of the opposition and surveying the battlefield. Roll credits. Glenn becomes the main character forevermore.

  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    edited March 2016
    What if everyone gets Lucille'd except for Glenn?

    Pretty much every likely possibility will leave me very upset, but I would love to see a fight scene where everybody but Glenn takes a fatal blow to the head in rapid succession. Cue Glenn killing off the last of the opposition and surveying the battlefield. Roll credits. Glenn becomes the main character forevermore.
    Post credit scene: Zombie shambles in from offscreen and bites Glenn.
    The End.

    see317 on
    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
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  • BlazeFireBlazeFire Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    What if everyone gets Lucille'd except for Glenn?

    Pretty much every likely possibility will leave me very upset, but I would love to see a fight scene where everybody but Glenn takes a fatal blow to the head in rapid succession. Cue Glenn killing off the last of the opposition and surveying the battlefield. Roll credits. Glenn becomes the main character forevermore.
    Post credit scene: Zombie shambles in from offscreen and bites Glenn.
    The End.

    Make it a ninja zombie and you have my vote.

  • NaphtaliNaphtali Null Registered User regular
    i'm so sick of ninja zombies

    that's the worst part of the show imo

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  • BlazeFireBlazeFire Registered User regular
    I've read (maybe from someone on the show?) that the intent with the ninja zombies is to show how someone might be distracted or or focused on something else and that is why the zombie can "sneak up" on them. The alternative would be the audience hearing zombie sounds and saying "why don't they turn around you can clearly hear the zombie".

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited March 2016
    It's still a dumb copout. Oh man, I live in a world where being distracted and not paying attention means I die to something that I could easily have avoided. In that world, if you gave a shit about surviving, you'd never not be super alert.

    The only people who would die to ninja zombies in that situation are people who text and drive, and those people would've been dead in the first days after the outbreak.

    The stealth zombies only exist because the writers can't continually come up with interesting ways to have people die to zombies so they just go hack mode when they need to kill someone badly enough.

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  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    It's still a dumb copout. Oh man, I live in a world where being distracted and not paying attention means I die to something that I could easily have avoided. In that world, if you gave a shit about surviving, you'd never not be super alert.

    The only people who would die to ninja zombies in that situation are people who text and drive, and those people would've been dead in the first days after the outbreak.

    The stealth zombies only exist because the writers can't continually come up with interesting ways to have people die to zombies so they just go hack mode when they need to kill someone badly enough.

    That's the thing though, you're tired and stressed, there is no way to be super alert all the time, people just aren't built to be like that. Especially after years of this kind of stuff.

    Not to say the ninja zombies aren't annoying though.

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  • BlazeFireBlazeFire Registered User regular
    Yea, I'm not defending it. I should have added it is still jarring and has approached meme-levels for my wife and I.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    The problem with the ninja zombies is that we're always shown walkers as being noisy, gargling, feet shuffling, meandering things. So it's just not acceptable that somebody's stress makes them so distracted that they don't hear that coming up behind them on dry leaves.

    Stress and fatigue doesn't make you go deaf.

    It's lazy writing, but a huge amount of this show depends on lazy writing. I mean hell, the last episode was pretty good, and even it relied upon a group of 4 dudes being told to go to the kill room on the radio, then opening the door to said room, seeing that it's completely empty, yet still going inside of it and walking around in circles going "hey the floor is slick" long enough to get lit on fire and locked in.

    The show just does enough stuff really well and entertaining that you ignore the other stuff, or at least just make fun of it but still enjoy the show.

  • MalReynoldsMalReynolds The Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicines Registered User regular
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    The problem with the ninja zombies is that we're always shown walkers as being noisy, gargling, feet shuffling, meandering things. So it's just not acceptable that somebody's stress makes them so distracted that they don't hear that coming up behind them on dry leaves.

    Stress and fatigue doesn't make you go deaf.

    Agree to disagree on the 'making you go deaf' thing

    But I've almost merged into another car because I saw a bird. I'm operating a vehicle, which is inherently dangerous as it's two tons of metal and plastic barreling down a road at 70 miles per hour. I typically have a good sense of my surroundings. But a bird darted in front of my car, I swerved to miss it, and I almost hit a van.

    Driving is an activity that I participate in every single day, and I've still almost gotten into accidents.

    So, no, the bird didn't make me go deaf or blind, but it pulled me out of the moment long enough to make a mistake, which is something you seem to be unwilling to grant the characters.

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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    It would be neat if the characters cared about studying the walkers. Maybe they'd find out that they do approach their prey silently until they're ready to strike or something like that. Maybe the walkers have different personalities, some being more aggressive and noisy than others.

    But that would require a level of thought and world building that this show doesn't have.

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  • belligerentbelligerent Registered User regular
    How many years, or months, or even days can you be that super alert before you just wear out?

    If it were anyone other than carol, I would believe the wheezing. However, she starts it after putting the rosary in her pocket. So it feels like part of the act.

    however, underneath the act is definitely a feeling of remorse, of wanting to be a mother.

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  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    reVerse wrote: »
    It would be neat if the characters cared about studying the walkers. Maybe they'd find out that they do approach their prey silently until they're ready to strike or something like that. Maybe the walkers have different personalities, some being more aggressive and noisy than others.

    But that would require a level of thought and world building that this show doesn't have.

    They do! Depending on age. As shown in the first couple seasons, recently deceased walkers can be quiet, fast, even maintain some kind of intelligence. But most of the walkers seen around now are years old and don't have any of that.

    Oh brilliant
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Ninja zombies can be explained as people being so used to the noise they actively ignore it in general.

    Same reason your nose gets used to smells.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Ninja zombies can be explained as people being so used to the noise they actively ignore it in general.

    Same reason your nose gets used to smells.

    Yep, its the chalk thing, you become desensitized to it and then you don't notice until its too late.

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    I'd say there's a basic premise that the show has deviated from at times.

    Exhibit A: Dumbass Flowers Girl who knelt between two zombies without stabbing them in the head first.
    Exhibit B: Sasha being all "OMG ABRAHAM Y U KILLING ZOMBIES" when you should be killing every zombie you see as soon as safely possible, because zombies are only a threat in numbers or when they surprise you, so the best way to preempt that is to kill them when you see them in small numbers.
    Exhibit C: All the zombies being stuck in a quarry and the team not just throwing as much vegetation as possible into the whole thing and setting it on fire, instead of some ridiculously elaborate plan to "lead them all away".

    There's basic behavior that should be habitualized by now which isn't, and basic planning which should happen that doesn't. And it's pretty clear that it's because the writers either can't or won't figure out how to work around those constraints.

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited March 2016
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    The problem with the ninja zombies is that we're always shown walkers as being noisy, gargling, feet shuffling, meandering things. So it's just not acceptable that somebody's stress makes them so distracted that they don't hear that coming up behind them on dry leaves.

    Stress and fatigue doesn't make you go deaf.

    Agree to disagree on the 'making you go deaf' thing

    But I've almost merged into another car because I saw a bird. I'm operating a vehicle, which is inherently dangerous as it's two tons of metal and plastic barreling down a road at 70 miles per hour. I typically have a good sense of my surroundings. But a bird darted in front of my car, I swerved to miss it, and I almost hit a van.

    Driving is an activity that I participate in every single day, and I've still almost gotten into accidents.

    So, no, the bird didn't make me go deaf or blind, but it pulled me out of the moment long enough to make a mistake, which is something you seem to be unwilling to grant the characters.

    It's more like you know how after you got distracted and almost killed yourself with bad driving, you were super alert and anxious for the rest of your drive? In TWD's universe, anybody who has lived this long should be in that state constantly, any time they're not inside the walls of a safe zone.

    If you ever read any of the stuff you'll see written by former spec ops and such about how to handle active shooter scenarios and stuff, where they teach you that you need to re-learn how to live on a daily basis, and be constantly alert and aware of what's going on around you so that when stuff goes down you don't panic, and you're ready to sense danger as it breaks out, that's how the people in this universe should be. That they're not is not believable to me, but then again, I guess that's why those people are dying stupid deaths.

    Joshmvii on
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