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[Telltale] Tales from the Borderlands - Ep.3 "Catch a Ride" out now!

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Posts

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    The money paid for any games that were forthcoming is already gone. They will work with potential partners to cover the costs of finishing what’s left, meaning they will pay a small group of overworked people a pittance so management can walk away with something in their pockets.

    At this point, it is probably more about wanting a complete Walking Dead series since it is the most valuable property in portfolio and useful in future negotiations with creditors and investors.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    Ketherial wrote: »
    as someone who is not in a management position, i will say that a lot of this vitriol directed at management in general seems misplaced to me.

    in telltale's specific situation, hiring people a week before declaring bankruptcy is despicable. treating people like cogs who can be overworked until new ones can be found is miserable (and against the law). there are no excuses for this.

    but honestly, lots of times, without management, projects and ideas never get anywhere. wasn't penny arcade kind of a mess before that asian dude stepped in and cleaned everything up with good business management? i don't know for sure, but i bet penny arcade would have never become the awesome site it is now without good management. management is as important a piece of the puzzle as development. bad development leads to bad games. bad management leads to no games.

    in this case was it bad management that lead to telltale's downfall? maybe? or maybe it was just that no one bought the games? or maybe the games were buggy and incomplete (bad developers)?

    probably a little bit of everything.

    You know what helps fix buggy and incomplete games? Not having management set release dates that are unrealistic to meet without being able to get all features added and bugs removed.

    DarkPrimus on
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  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    Ketherial wrote: »
    as someone who is not in a management position, i will say that a lot of this vitriol directed at management in general seems misplaced to me.

    in telltale's specific situation, hiring people a week before declaring bankruptcy is despicable. treating people like cogs who can be overworked until new ones can be found is miserable (and against the law). there are no excuses for this.

    but honestly, lots of times, without management, projects and ideas never get anywhere. wasn't penny arcade kind of a mess before that asian dude stepped in and cleaned everything up with good business management? i don't know for sure, but i bet penny arcade would have never become the awesome site it is now without good management. management is as important a piece of the puzzle as development. bad development leads to bad games. bad management leads to no games.

    in this case was it bad management that lead to telltale's downfall? maybe? or maybe it was just that no one bought the games? or maybe the games were buggy and incomplete (bad developers)?

    probably a little bit of everything.

    Who you think were making the decision to keep everyone in the dark until they fire everyone? The janitor?!

    furlionjdarksunDrovek
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    I know people were in a big tizzy about LPs taking away business from games a few years ago -and I know that companies like Nintendo still claim stuff with their content. That seems to have died down, and honestly I felt the impact of LPs are moot, influence only a few people that were never going to buy a game anyway, or even helped sales like getting me to buy TWAU because of the Best Friends.

    If there was one type of game that I felt that LPs probably did take sales from it is narrative games like Telltale's. I have watched most Telltale series on SBFP and have paid for all of one because it looked really cool and they hadn't finished it yet. The whole of their games are essentially on youtube and their branching choices are often not actually different enough to really draw someone into buying because someone wants to see something they missed. You get the same experience as any LPer because these games were more like interactive movies than anything else. This is not true for even very linear experiences in other types of games.

    sum: I think LPs were a factor in their lowered sales.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    I know people were in a big tizzy about LPs taking away business from games a few years ago -and I know that companies like Nintendo still claim stuff with their content. That seems to have died down, and honestly I felt the impact of LPs are moot, influence only a few people that were never going to buy a game anyway, or even helped sales like getting me to buy TWAU because of the Best Friends.

    If there was one type of game that I felt that LPs probably did take sales from it is narrative games like Telltale's. I have watched most Telltale series on SBFP and have paid for all of one because it looked really cool and they hadn't finished it yet. The whole of their games are essentially on youtube and their branching choices are often not actually different enough to really draw someone into buying because someone wants to see something they missed. You get the same experience as any LPer because these games were more like interactive movies than anything else. This is not true for even very linear experiences in other types of games.

    sum: I think LPs were a factor in their lowered sales.

    They didn't hurt Detroit.

    Which reminds me: we're now in a world where Telltale has folded but David Cage's output thrives. This is the darkest timeline.

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  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    Telltale management has been notorious for a while now, and their action this past week prove they are utter shit. Ire sent in their direction is 100% warranted.

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  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    And like, the thing that is piss me off the most is that I know what was said during all of this, cause I've been through this.

    'Team, we need to put in more hours. We need our numbers to be here so at the end of the quarter we'll be good!

    So we all did put in the time. Busted our assess to get our numbers up. Freaking record breaking shit.

    Then all of the sudden it's

    'thank you everyone. Thanks to your effort, we've been brought out! There's going to be some changes. First of all, your benefits are now worse. No more pension. Those who have a pension, you're now retired. All salary employees are expected to clock in 50hrs. Hourly employees are no longer allowed to get over time. Thank very much for your efforts!'

    And like... What was all that effort for? We basically busted our asses so the owners can get a giant fucking check while everyone else are told to either get fucked or get out. Because the message became

    'you all did great last quarter! But we know you can do better! So this quarter we're shooting for a %20 increase in profit!'

    And we hit those numbers, and yet we never got raises. Our premiums got worse. No one ever got paid training anymore. 401k matching got worse and worse, but every quarter we hit our goals.

    Corporations are not your friend.

    Casually Hardcore on
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  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Ketherial wrote: »
    as someone who is not in a management position, i will say that a lot of this vitriol directed at management in general seems misplaced to me.

    in telltale's specific situation, hiring people a week before declaring bankruptcy is despicable. treating people like cogs who can be overworked until new ones can be found is miserable (and against the law). there are no excuses for this.

    but honestly, lots of times, without management, projects and ideas never get anywhere. wasn't penny arcade kind of a mess before that asian dude stepped in and cleaned everything up with good business management? i don't know for sure, but i bet penny arcade would have never become the awesome site it is now without good management. management is as important a piece of the puzzle as development. bad development leads to bad games. bad management leads to no games.

    in this case was it bad management that lead to telltale's downfall? maybe? or maybe it was just that no one bought the games? or maybe the games were buggy and incomplete (bad developers)?

    probably a little bit of everything.

    You know what helps fix buggy and incomplete games? Not having management set release dates that are unrealistic to meet without being able to get all features added and bugs removed.

    But what you are upset towards, is BAD management, which is a universal thing.

    Managers are people, just like developers (or anything else). Some are great, some are average, some are bad, and some are right pricks who fuck people over.

    Management (staff) in and of itself, is not shitty or unnecessary, even in video games.

    76561198017303226.png
    Axen
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    Bigity wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Ketherial wrote: »
    as someone who is not in a management position, i will say that a lot of this vitriol directed at management in general seems misplaced to me.

    in telltale's specific situation, hiring people a week before declaring bankruptcy is despicable. treating people like cogs who can be overworked until new ones can be found is miserable (and against the law). there are no excuses for this.

    but honestly, lots of times, without management, projects and ideas never get anywhere. wasn't penny arcade kind of a mess before that asian dude stepped in and cleaned everything up with good business management? i don't know for sure, but i bet penny arcade would have never become the awesome site it is now without good management. management is as important a piece of the puzzle as development. bad development leads to bad games. bad management leads to no games.

    in this case was it bad management that lead to telltale's downfall? maybe? or maybe it was just that no one bought the games? or maybe the games were buggy and incomplete (bad developers)?

    probably a little bit of everything.

    You know what helps fix buggy and incomplete games? Not having management set release dates that are unrealistic to meet without being able to get all features added and bugs removed.

    But what you are upset towards, is BAD management, which is a universal thing.

    Managers are people, just like developers (or anything else). Some are great, some are average, some are bad, and some are right pricks who fuck people over.

    Management (staff) in and of itself, is not shitty or unnecessary, even in video games.

    Okay, and what is the point you're trying to make right now?

    Bringing up "well what about good managers?" isn't really relevant when the management at Telltale Games wasn't good. Even before this news, there were lots of reports of shitty workplace practices there.

    I'm all for unions in the games industry. I'm all for unions in places other than the games industry, too! Because unions help the workers regardless of whether the management is good or bad.

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    There's an update. Outside companies are talking to Telltale about finishing up The Walking Dead for them. Meanwhile, a lot of employees are still laid off and not getting any sort of severance pay.
    https://twitter .com/telltalegames/status/1044370808657915905

    This is both good and bad. I don't want to pay the managers, I want to pay the workers, but I also want to finish this damn story that I have spent 5+ years being invested in. Especially since TWDFS is like, an actual improvement both engine and gameplay wise. TWDFS is what Season 2 or ANF SHOULD have been IMO.
    I dunno, there's also something to be said of developers swooping in going "oh can we do it" on the back of their peers being fired like this.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    Eh... while better conditions and management and the like would have been nice, I doubt that they would have addressed the problem that was Telltale's releases failed to generate enough money for the Zynga shark to decide not to shutter it.

    If they just focused on one of the games instead of all of them... at best it would have made the point where Telltale gets the eulogic rose tint treatment where everyone comes to talk about them later. Or it could have just as easily made it come sooner. Who knows.

    And yeah, not really feeling the altruism in the whole "we'll finish this game in your stead" thing either.

    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    Also good for Polygon for linking the complaint.

    I don’t know anything about these statutes and potential defenses, but my biggest concern is that even if Telltale loses on liability, there may be no money for a judgment.

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  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited September 2018
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Bigity wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Ketherial wrote: »
    as someone who is not in a management position, i will say that a lot of this vitriol directed at management in general seems misplaced to me.

    in telltale's specific situation, hiring people a week before declaring bankruptcy is despicable. treating people like cogs who can be overworked until new ones can be found is miserable (and against the law). there are no excuses for this.

    but honestly, lots of times, without management, projects and ideas never get anywhere. wasn't penny arcade kind of a mess before that asian dude stepped in and cleaned everything up with good business management? i don't know for sure, but i bet penny arcade would have never become the awesome site it is now without good management. management is as important a piece of the puzzle as development. bad development leads to bad games. bad management leads to no games.

    in this case was it bad management that lead to telltale's downfall? maybe? or maybe it was just that no one bought the games? or maybe the games were buggy and incomplete (bad developers)?

    probably a little bit of everything.

    You know what helps fix buggy and incomplete games? Not having management set release dates that are unrealistic to meet without being able to get all features added and bugs removed.

    But what you are upset towards, is BAD management, which is a universal thing.

    Managers are people, just like developers (or anything else). Some are great, some are average, some are bad, and some are right pricks who fuck people over.

    Management (staff) in and of itself, is not shitty or unnecessary, even in video games.

    Okay, and what is the point you're trying to make right now?

    Bringing up "well what about good managers?" isn't really relevant when the management at Telltale Games wasn't good. Even before this news, there were lots of reports of shitty workplace practices there.

    I'm all for unions in the games industry. I'm all for unions in places other than the games industry, too! Because unions help the workers regardless of whether the management is good or bad.

    The point is, if you have been following the last few pages, is that some people are blowing up at the idea of managers being involved in making games at all. Period.

    Wasn't really directed specifically at you, it just happened to be the post I quoted along with another.

    Bigity on
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  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    Also good for Polygon for linking the complaint.

    I don’t know anything about these statutes and potential defenses, but my biggest concern is that even if Telltale loses on liability, there may be no money for a judgment.

    This is what I expect. They may lose the judgement if it makes it that far, but are there any assets to claim? Maybe any property they owned? I expect all the IP stuff was licensed.

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  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    Bigity wrote: »
    Also good for Polygon for linking the complaint.

    I don’t know anything about these statutes and potential defenses, but my biggest concern is that even if Telltale loses on liability, there may be no money for a judgment.

    This is what I expect. They may lose the judgement if it makes it that far, but are there any assets to claim? Maybe any property they owned? I expect all the IP stuff was licensed.

    Basically Telltale would declare bankruptcy (I think Ch 12 is the complete dissolution of an entity) and creditors would get in line for their debts to be paid as governed by a bankruptcy trustee and a bankruptcy judge. I don’t know where a money judgment falls with that respect.

    The savior is whatever insurance policies Telltale and its management have to cover this kind of loss. Assuming their shit behavior isn’t excluded by some provision of the ins policy.

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    Bigity
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    There's no way Telltale is going to argue themselves out of wrongdoing in that case. Good on the employee for kicking that lawsuit off.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Bigity wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Bigity wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Ketherial wrote: »
    as someone who is not in a management position, i will say that a lot of this vitriol directed at management in general seems misplaced to me.

    in telltale's specific situation, hiring people a week before declaring bankruptcy is despicable. treating people like cogs who can be overworked until new ones can be found is miserable (and against the law). there are no excuses for this.

    but honestly, lots of times, without management, projects and ideas never get anywhere. wasn't penny arcade kind of a mess before that asian dude stepped in and cleaned everything up with good business management? i don't know for sure, but i bet penny arcade would have never become the awesome site it is now without good management. management is as important a piece of the puzzle as development. bad development leads to bad games. bad management leads to no games.

    in this case was it bad management that lead to telltale's downfall? maybe? or maybe it was just that no one bought the games? or maybe the games were buggy and incomplete (bad developers)?

    probably a little bit of everything.

    You know what helps fix buggy and incomplete games? Not having management set release dates that are unrealistic to meet without being able to get all features added and bugs removed.

    But what you are upset towards, is BAD management, which is a universal thing.

    Managers are people, just like developers (or anything else). Some are great, some are average, some are bad, and some are right pricks who fuck people over.

    Management (staff) in and of itself, is not shitty or unnecessary, even in video games.

    Okay, and what is the point you're trying to make right now?

    Bringing up "well what about good managers?" isn't really relevant when the management at Telltale Games wasn't good. Even before this news, there were lots of reports of shitty workplace practices there.

    I'm all for unions in the games industry. I'm all for unions in places other than the games industry, too! Because unions help the workers regardless of whether the management is good or bad.

    The point is, if you have been following the last few pages, is that some people are blowing up at the idea of managers being involved in making games at all. Period.

    Wasn't really directed specifically at you, it just happened to be the post I quoted along with another.

    Okay, cool! :+1:

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  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    If they do win I wonder how that'll come in to play with bankruptcy.

    I assume Telltale would be filing Chapter 7 and in that case the employees would be label "creditors" however they'd be low priority creditors. After assets have been liquidated the money would go to pay of loans and such, then the Govt, and then if there is anything left the employees would get a cut. If Telletale has a lot of outstanding debt that could be a real big "if". Though the process could take months or years even and if the employees actually did get something there is a high chance it wouldn't even be enough to pay rent.

    So if they win the lawsuit I'm curious to learn what the order of precedent would be. Would they have to pay off the lawsuit first and then everything else?

    fake edit- Ah yes, as with all things Google had the answer.
    If your civil lawsuit is in progress when the defendant files a bankruptcy case, the case will come to a stop. The automatic stay—a court order (injunction) that prohibits a creditor from collecting its debt—gets put in place immediately after a bankruptcy filing.

    To continue the lawsuit, you’ll have to file a motion asking the bankruptcy court to lift the automatic stay (and you’ll need a good reason to do so). Pursuing the litigation without court permission could lead to a loss of your right to a recovery, being held in contempt of court, being charged a hefty fine, and possibly being ordered to pay damages (compensatory money) to the debtor.

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  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    Ah chapter 7, thanks. That’s what I get for commenting without double checking. Chapter 12 has to do with “farmers and fisherman” which... probably doesn’t apply.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    If they do win I wonder how that'll come in to play with bankruptcy.

    I assume Telltale would be filing Chapter 7 and in that case the employees would be label "creditors" however they'd be low priority creditors. After assets have been liquidated the money would go to pay of loans and such, then the Govt, and then if there is anything left the employees would get a cut. If Telletale has a lot of outstanding debt that could be a real big "if". Though the process could take months or years even and if the employees actually did get something there is a high chance it wouldn't even be enough to pay rent.

    So if they win the lawsuit I'm curious to learn what the order of precedent would be. Would they have to pay off the lawsuit first and then everything else?

    fake edit- Ah yes, as with all things Google had the answer.
    If your civil lawsuit is in progress when the defendant files a bankruptcy case, the case will come to a stop. The automatic stay—a court order (injunction) that prohibits a creditor from collecting its debt—gets put in place immediately after a bankruptcy filing.

    To continue the lawsuit, you’ll have to file a motion asking the bankruptcy court to lift the automatic stay (and you’ll need a good reason to do so). Pursuing the litigation without court permission could lead to a loss of your right to a recovery, being held in contempt of court, being charged a hefty fine, and possibly being ordered to pay damages (compensatory money) to the debtor.

    The reason for the automatic stay is because if the case is found to be in the favor of the employees, the legal obligation would be to first provide them with proper severance and pay any related damages and fines, and then proceed with the bankruptcy.

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  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Ah chapter 7, thanks. That’s what I get for commenting without double checking. Chapter 12 has to do with “farmers and fisherman” which... probably doesn’t apply.

    Lol! From the horror stories that have been coming out of Telltale I think the employees could potentially make a solid case for being "cattle".

  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Waypoint with a very concise article title:

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Selfishly, I want TWD finished. Obviously not at the expense/exploitation of the workers. But it's also the one sole vector that's screwing over consumers in some fashion. I am personally fine if the answer is "No". However that hole gets plugged, once it is, I am fine with whatever goes on. Bankruptcy, lawsuits, whatever. But as a consumer, I'd like closure on it.

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  • QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    Selfishly, I want TWD finished. Obviously not at the expense/exploitation of the workers. But it's also the one sole vector that's screwing over consumers in some fashion. I am personally fine if the answer is "No". However that hole gets plugged, once it is, I am fine with whatever goes on. Bankruptcy, lawsuits, whatever. But as a consumer, I'd like closure on it.

    Best case scenario is someone like Devolver Digital buys out Telltale and their properties, lays off their management, and starts the company again with proper setups for accounting and budgets, as well as reasonable deadlines for games.

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  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Selfishly, I want TWD finished. Obviously not at the expense/exploitation of the workers. But it's also the one sole vector that's screwing over consumers in some fashion. I am personally fine if the answer is "No". However that hole gets plugged, once it is, I am fine with whatever goes on. Bankruptcy, lawsuits, whatever. But as a consumer, I'd like closure on it.

    Best case scenario is someone like Devolver Digital buys out Telltale and their properties, lays off their management, and starts the company again with proper setups for accounting and budgets, as well as reasonable deadlines for games.

    THQ Nordic is in the business of buying old IPs, but probably doesn't have the funding necessary to make Telltale games.

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  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    Also THQ Nordic is a pretty big exception. Most developers go out of business and their stuff disappears. Less likely to happen with Telltale because its games have been so popular, but nearly everything is based on licensed property, which will increase purchase costs and make negotiations more difficult when dealing with multiple rights holders.

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  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    edited October 2018
  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    “Time to die”? That doesn’t sound great...

    Man, fuck Telltale.

    Edit- I see now that is part of the full Bladerunner quote. Ok less worrisome. Previous sentiment about Telltale remains.

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  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    There's this at least:

    Kirkman’s Skybound to Complete Telltale’s ‘Walking Dead’ With Original Devs

    Guess that's one way to get around the licensing stuff.

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  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    That's great. I wonder what they're going to do with it. Or how much the story will change from the original vision.

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  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    Oofa. Epic making some waves... https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/telltales-the-walking-dead-epic-games-store-1203093523/
    All future episodes of “Telltale’s The Walking Dead” on PC will be published on the Epic Games Store, Skybound Games announced Thursday. People who already bought the season on a different PC platform will still receive the final two episodes through their previous point of purchase.

    The third episode of “Telltale’s The Walking Dead: The Final Season,” entitled Broken Toys, is set for a Jan. 15 release on Epic’s new online game store. Epic Games Store will also be host to the previous episodes of the season for those who want to buy it as well. The game will hit consoles on Jan. 15 as well.

    I still haven't played Episode 2.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    At the risk of getting off-topic, yeah, Epic's making some real waves. Out of the gate they've gotten some big exclusives. Curious to see how Steam responds, or even if they do.

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