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Discuss National Infrastructure And Also Kirby In The [Nintendo] Thread

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    Mr. GMr. G Registered User regular
    Fire Emblem Awakening handles this the best

    There's multiple difficulties and two different modes, one significantly more punishing than the other so you can play it exactly how you want

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Lars wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    If you don't want to save scum... Don't save scum.

    If you don't want to play games that expect you to make it through a part of the game in one sitting...don't play them.

    And I don't! And then the people who made them get $0 from me.

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    RehabRehab Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    Rehab wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    Rehab wrote: »
    Rehab wrote: »
    The ability for every game to allow saves at any time is independent of whether or not that is actually a good idea for a specific game. Punishing save states is integral to certain types of games. Survival horror that lets you save anywhere, for instance, is bullshit.

    Never gonna agree with this

    Its artificial tension, tension from something that is not the actual game and systems

    If you can't create the feeling and atmosphere you want without restricting my ability to play the game when I want to, I am much less likely to play your game

    The thing that strikes me as artificial is being in a hostile environment and going "okay save" at any given point when that should be limited to times when you have a moment to breathe. Tension is not being safe. You absolutely break it when you can dictate the point you jump back into the game.

    I can see the argument for not being able to save in the middle of a fight

    But if I'm just standing in a hallway I am having a moment to breathe

    That makes a certain amount of sense.

    However, being allowed to save usually indicates that you are completely safe (within that room) in that type of game. So if you can save in that hallway, that should actually be the case (no traps, no creatures through windows). But then again, the indication of whether you could save or not would blatantly point out that there is nothing to harm you and would thus take away from the suspense of not knowing if something is around the corner or not.

    my logic is that if I am in a position in the game where I could potentially leave it running indefinitely standing still at that point without anything attacking me, my character has time to write a journal and I should be able to save

    If I step forward five feet and a zombie dog pops out then sure, but let me deal with that zombie dog later and if the zombie dog kills me let me load right before it instead of replaying half an hour

    But you ran out of ink for your pen and you must get a new one out of your item box in the study one floor up and three rooms to the right of the staircase.

    NNID: Rehab0
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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    platformers usually have excellent save systems, autosaving after every level

    I agree there shouldn't be midlevel saves, a level is short enough that replaying it is not a big hassle and doing those few minutes at once or with a few checkpoints is solid deliberate design

    similarly saving in the middle of an rpg battle would be dumb, but I should be able to save and continue from any point in the field or dungeon map because those have big enough gaps between save points for a reload to actually be annoying and tedious

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    LarsLars Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Lars wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    If you don't want to save scum... Don't save scum.

    If you don't want to play games that expect you to make it through a part of the game in one sitting...don't play them.

    And I don't! And then the people who made them get $0 from me.

    So what's the problem? If they can continue to exist without your money, why not let them exist?

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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    Limitations can breed new styles of play and thinking strategies. If you don't like those limitations, that's fine. To say they're pointless however, not so much.

    Things like designated save points serve a purpose. it's to make you think about if it's worth doubling back to save when enemies might spawn in your way, or if you should just pres ahead. needing items to save is another layer of resource management, which is a big deal in old horror survival. These aren't just arbitrary systems in place to make the game less playable.

    That said, i'm glad they're basically gone in every modern resident evil game.

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    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    Mr. G wrote: »
    Fire Emblem Awakening handles this the best

    There's multiple difficulties and two different modes, one significantly more punishing than the other so you can play it exactly how you want

    I love 3D World's approach

    If you do poorly enough, they just give you a suit that makes you literally invincible, the only way you can lose is falling off edges

    Ideally they wouldn't make you lose five lives before getting the suit, they'd just have it sitting there at the start of the level

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    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    I just don't think it's unreasonable for the makers of a game to create artificial limits on what you can do or have expectations for how you play it. Obviously there's a point where the limitations get in the way of enjoyability (never finished Final Fantasy III DS because I died at the boss of a particularly challenging dungeon and just couldn't face doing the whole thing over again), but I don't think every single game should cater to the people who place that point at 0.

    Thankfully you can do both by having an option of saving and choosing not to use it

    I have a podcast about Power Rangers:Teenagers With Attitude | TWA Facebook Group
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    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Just include an iron man mode in all games that potentially benefit from punishing save systems

    This would be absolutely fine

    I have a podcast about Power Rangers:Teenagers With Attitude | TWA Facebook Group
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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    what if we just make everything an emulator, and have a built in save state option. then we have every system able to do tool assisted speed runs as well.

    Everyone wins.

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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    I had no idea some of you had such narrow ideas of what constituted a good save system versus not.

    Limited save systems can absolutely be a part of a game's design, whether or not you personally find that limitation enjoyable. Lots of games are designed around what you can't do just as much as what you can.

    I'm fine with the change to the same system in Majora's Mask, though it is sort of curious in the way it changes the dynamic of how you turn back time.

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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    the dark side of being able to save anywhere is that you can actually put yourself in a worse position that way

    there's a cyberdemon ahead and I only have two rockets left

    I got and used all the green herbs and then saved now I can't heal

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    LarsLars Registered User regular
    I just don't think it's unreasonable for the makers of a game to create artificial limits on what you can do or have expectations for how you play it. Obviously there's a point where the limitations get in the way of enjoyability (never finished Final Fantasy III DS because I died at the boss of a particularly challenging dungeon and just couldn't face doing the whole thing over again), but I don't think every single game should cater to the people who place that point at 0.

    Thankfully you can do both by having an option of saving and choosing not to use it

    No, you can't. People's brains are different. Risk/reward scenarios play out different. Values are placed differently. A game that might breed a nice sense of pleasure in the base of one's brain for successfully completing a complicated portion in one go might give basically nothing by saving every three feet to ensure absolutely no chance of failure, especially if no incentive or recognition is provided for doing it the first way.

    Self-made challenges are also prone to feeling less rewarding than the ones that game designers put in for you to beat.

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    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    the dark side of being able to save anywhere is that you can actually put yourself in a worse position that way

    there's a cyberdemon ahead and I only have two rockets left

    I got and used all the green herbs and then saved now I can't heal

    Check your inventory again

    You have a One-Shot Rocket!

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    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Mr. G wrote: »
    Fire Emblem Awakening handles this the best

    There's multiple difficulties and two different modes, one significantly more punishing than the other so you can play it exactly how you want

    Yep

    Its a model for how games should work

    My only issue is you can't change the mode once you've started a save

    I have a podcast about Power Rangers:Teenagers With Attitude | TWA Facebook Group
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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    don't get me started on accidentally quicksaving as you jump into a lava pit

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    Bluedude152Bluedude152 Registered User regular
    Yeah and some people will never be able to play the game because of the save restraints and affects ~almost nothing~

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    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Basically games should accommodate as many playstyles as possible unless it completely breaks the entire theme/point of the game (and within budget restraints of course)

    I have a podcast about Power Rangers:Teenagers With Attitude | TWA Facebook Group
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    CorporateLogoCorporateLogo The toilet knows how I feelRegistered User regular
    This isn't national infrastructure but I feel it belongs here

    Do not have a cow, mortal.

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    I pretty much only save games when I am done playing for that current session. I just want 100% flexibility in defining how long that session is.

    These days I pretty much only game on the PC and on handhelds though, which generally let me do exactly that so I am a happy camper.

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    KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    when will obama address our nations critical save infrastructure shortage

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    This isn't national infrastructure but I feel it belongs here

    Uh this garbage doesn't belong anywhere.

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    LarsLars Registered User regular
    This is getting into a separate issue, but I'm also perfectly fine with games being too hard and not having an easy option.

    They are almost universally not for me, especially at my current age as there are numerous times where I hear about a game's difficulty and decide to pass on it because I don't want to put the time and energy into getting good enough to beat it. However, I don't think that they should not exist, or even that they should include an Easy mode so I could play it. They have their audience and that's fine.

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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    i just remembered the majora's mask dlc for hyrule warriors is out today.

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    Bluedude152Bluedude152 Registered User regular
    I have been waiting to play act 3 of Kentucky Route Zero for half a year because I dont have the time set aside for a 2 hour play session

    I cant sit down to play a entire day of majoras mask every time I pick it up

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    Bluedude152Bluedude152 Registered User regular
    Lars wrote: »
    This is getting into a separate issue, but I'm also perfectly fine with games being too hard and not having an easy option.

    They are almost universally not for me, especially at my current age as there are numerous times where I hear about a game's difficulty and decide to pass on it because I don't want to put the time and energy into getting good enough to beat it. However, I don't think that they should not exist, or even that they should include an Easy mode so I could play it. They have their audience and that's fine.

    Right

    Like we said you dont need to change the games difficulty if it affects your vision

    But this save system isnt the same as that and was a limit of hardware, not artistic vision

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    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Lars wrote: »
    I just don't think it's unreasonable for the makers of a game to create artificial limits on what you can do or have expectations for how you play it. Obviously there's a point where the limitations get in the way of enjoyability (never finished Final Fantasy III DS because I died at the boss of a particularly challenging dungeon and just couldn't face doing the whole thing over again), but I don't think every single game should cater to the people who place that point at 0.

    Thankfully you can do both by having an option of saving and choosing not to use it

    No, you can't. People's brains are different. Risk/reward scenarios play out different. Values are placed differently. A game that might breed a nice sense of pleasure in the base of one's brain for successfully completing a complicated portion in one go might give basically nothing by saving every three feet to ensure absolutely no chance of failure, especially if no incentive or recognition is provided for doing it the first way.

    Who said there'd be no incentive or recognition for doing it the first way, though?

    Again, this is where I feel Super Mario 3D World is a perfect example

    I could hand that game to my mother and, even though it will be a major timesink, she will make it through all eight worlds and defeat Bowser. She will "beat" the game, and probably have a good time doing so!

    As for me, I know I'm not going to get all the Stamps if I don't beat every level, with every character, without the Golden Tanooki suit, while hitting the top of every flagpole

    It sounds like, in your scenario, you'd feel the need to exploit a system if it were there. In short, you have yourself to blame for cheating yourself out of something you find fulfilling. That's on you.

    UnbreakableVow on
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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    god the 3d mario games are so perfectly balanced

    easy enough for a kid, challenging enough for a Pro Gamer

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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    The weirdest part of this conversation to me is that in Majora's Mask you could save anywhere, anytime, where the only limitation was where you would pick the game back up. This was also the case in Ocarina of Time, just that the ability to pick the game back up was less limited. What you guys are looking for is actually the ability to reload the game at any point, which is radically different.

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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    why the heck in ocarina 3d did you still start back at kokiri village/temple of time upon loading a save

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    KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    god the 3d mario games are so perfectly balanced

    easy enough for a kid, challenging enough for a Pro Gamer

    I thought 3d world's bonus stages got super hard

    and going back to get all the stamps and stars was a bridge too far (though I really liked the idea)

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    why the heck in ocarina 3d did you still start back at kokiri village/temple of time upon loading a save

    Going to guess hardware limitations.

    Because I have no idea why else you'd have it that way.

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    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    why the heck in ocarina 3d did you still start back at kokiri village/temple of time upon loading a save

    There have been more than a handful of times where I played Ocarina where I loaded the game up, saw I was at the Kokiri Village, and promptly turned the game off

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    OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    Oh yeah Quick Saves anywhere are perfectly fine and could be a part of everything ever and I'd be happy.

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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    The same reason you'd start back at the entrance of a temple if you saved in the middle of a temple, in spite of keeping all your progress:

    It gave you a point of reference for where you were starting so you didn't get lost, and also it probably had something to do with the memory limitations of the N64

    As to why in the 3DS version? It was a close-to-perfect-as-possible reproduction of the N64 game

    Weirdly enough the only part of Ocarina of Time 3D that really, really bothers me is the change in speed for some of the animations, and the way that the lighting is brightened up in a lot of places (assumedly because you are on a handheld)

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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    why the heck in ocarina 3d did you still start back at kokiri village/temple of time upon loading a save

    probably the same reason they put the lag back into star fox 64. Vision.

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    Mr. GMr. G Registered User regular
    I have the next one of these all ready to go and everyone will be happy about the thread title

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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Mr. G don't go breaking my heart

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    BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited February 2015
    -Tal wrote: »
    why the heck in ocarina 3d did you still start back at kokiri village/temple of time upon loading a save

    probably because the designers didn't think that was a big enough deal to bother changing. The world is not that big and you get teleportation songs to all the major adult dungeon entrances as they become relevant too.

    BahamutZERO on
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    RehabRehab Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I have felt tons of tension reading books.

    Despite them being text on a page that I can put down or even read ahead with.

    The limited saves tension argument holds no water with me.

    I had to go back to this because its an argument that doesn't actually work.

    If you're reading and things get tense for the main character and you put down the book mid sentence, you break yourself of that world and the stressful situation that was created evaporates moments after you stop reading. If you pick it back up to read three days later it won't be tense so much as jarring. Had you read that entire chapter or section in one go you would have remained immersed in that world and would have gained more for not taking yourself out of it when it was convenient for you.

    Books section themselves off very deliberately and for various reasons just as much as games do, you just obviously have more agency over what gets read and when.

    NNID: Rehab0
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