Options

Discuss National Infrastructure And Also Kirby In The [Nintendo] Thread

1969799101102105

Posts

  • Options
    WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    In my experience limited saving in survival horror just sucks all the tension out of the reload anyway because I know what to expect and what I have to do on the sequence I have to replay
    i think if you come up with a conceit for it, there's ways you could limit saving that'd be engaging

    like, your pause menu in goldeneye is 007's watch, what happens if his arms are tied up

    removing the player's ability to get to the story conceit that embodies their ability to save could be interesting, if tricky to execute on

  • Options
    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    Mr. G wrote: »
    You can experience everything in Majora's Mask, but not in one go

    I don't think there's one perfect run where you can help everybody and then finish the game

    This is very, incredibly, unbelievably unfortunate

  • Options
    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    This feels like the "you shouldn't be allowed to pause in dark souls it would ruin the game" claim again

    You like the game as is, that's fine

    But claiming that a thing done for convenience is going to ruin tension and atmosphere just seems insane

    Dark souls does has a good save system though, you are punished for death by losing your place and souls but you get to keep your items and a chance to retrieve your souls

    It would be much weaker if the bonfires were just limited save points

    PNk1Ml4.png
  • Options
    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Rehab wrote: »
    Rehab wrote: »
    The ability for every game to allow saves at any time is independent of whether or not that is actually a good idea for a specific game. Punishing save states is integral to certain types of games. Survival horror that lets you save anywhere, for instance, is bullshit.

    Never gonna agree with this

    Its artificial tension, tension from something that is not the actual game and systems

    If you can't create the feeling and atmosphere you want without restricting my ability to play the game when I want to, I am much less likely to play your game

    The thing that strikes me as artificial is being in a hostile environment and going "okay save" at any given point when that should be limited to times when you have a moment to breathe. Tension is not being safe. You absolutely break it when you can dictate the point you jump back into the game.

    Then don't let me pause

    That's am artificial tension breaker

    The video game is a construct, you have to allow for a player to experience it at their convenience because they are a human with shit to do

    They aren't actually the character in the game

    Build your world and atmosphere but it has to be usable by a human in a reasonable fashion because that's who you're making it for

    I have a podcast about Power Rangers:Teenagers With Attitude | TWA Facebook Group
  • Options
    Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    I liked the save rooms in RE4, they felt like a nice safe little place to have a breather and they weren't that thin on the ground, really

    The ink ribbons from RE1 though are horseshit

  • Options
    Mr. GMr. G Registered User regular
    Mr. G wrote: »
    You can experience everything in Majora's Mask, but not in one go

    I don't think there's one perfect run where you can help everybody and then finish the game

    This is very, incredibly, unbelievably unfortunate

    When I say "run" I mean one 3-day time cycle in the game

    You can 100% the game in one playthrough, but not in the 3 days of in-game time and have a "canon" run

    There's not nearly enough time to do so, probably not even to do half of it

    A full cycle is maybe an hour to 90 minutes at best, and you'd have to do every sidequest in the game in that time

    6F32U1X.png
  • Options
    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    I have felt tons of tension reading books.

    Despite them being text on a page that I can put down or even read ahead with.

    The limited saves tension argument holds no water with me.

    Inquisitor on
  • Options
    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Oh okay

    Much better!

    Because holy shit do I hate locked content behind multiple playthroughs

    UnbreakableVow on
  • Options
    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    Rehab wrote: »
    Rehab wrote: »
    The ability for every game to allow saves at any time is independent of whether or not that is actually a good idea for a specific game. Punishing save states is integral to certain types of games. Survival horror that lets you save anywhere, for instance, is bullshit.

    Never gonna agree with this

    Its artificial tension, tension from something that is not the actual game and systems

    If you can't create the feeling and atmosphere you want without restricting my ability to play the game when I want to, I am much less likely to play your game

    The thing that strikes me as artificial is being in a hostile environment and going "okay save" at any given point when that should be limited to times when you have a moment to breathe. Tension is not being safe. You absolutely break it when you can dictate the point you jump back into the game.

    I can see the argument for not being able to save in the middle of a fight

    But if I'm just standing in a hallway I am having a moment to breathe

    PNk1Ml4.png
  • Options
    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    This feels like the "you shouldn't be allowed to pause in dark souls it would ruin the game" claim again

    You like the game as is, that's fine

    But claiming that a thing done for convenience is going to ruin tension and atmosphere just seems insane

    Dark souls does has a good save system though, you are punished for death by losing your place and souls but you get to keep your items and a chance to retrieve your souls

    It would be much weaker if the bonfires were just limited save points

    I agree, wasn't talking about the save system

    Ds also saves literally wherever you are, and that game us ALL about tension, and it doesn't break it somehow

    I have a podcast about Power Rangers:Teenagers With Attitude | TWA Facebook Group
  • Options
    RehabRehab Registered User regular
    Eh, ink ribbons were everywhere.

    Those typewriters had enough ink for months and months of usage. You could type to your hearts content and not worry about going to a Office Max or Home Depot for awhile.

    NNID: Rehab0
  • Options
    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    Ink ribbons are bullshit

    Typewriters are bullshit

    Reboot RE1 and put computer terminals there

  • Options
    Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    Oh okay

    Much better!

    Because holy shit do I hate locked content behind multiple playthroughs

    Yeah it's all still recorded in the Bombers Notebook, which somehow is immune to the effects of time travel even though it's just a book some punkass kids give you?
    And since you can rewind time as many times as necessary before the final boss you can absolutely do everything before the game "ends"

  • Options
    LarsLars Registered User regular
    Rehab wrote: »
    Rehab wrote: »
    The ability for every game to allow saves at any time is independent of whether or not that is actually a good idea for a specific game. Punishing save states is integral to certain types of games. Survival horror that lets you save anywhere, for instance, is bullshit.

    Never gonna agree with this

    Its artificial tension, tension from something that is not the actual game and systems

    If you can't create the feeling and atmosphere you want without restricting my ability to play the game when I want to, I am much less likely to play your game

    The thing that strikes me as artificial is being in a hostile environment and going "okay save" at any given point when that should be limited to times when you have a moment to breathe. Tension is not being safe. You absolutely break it when you can dictate the point you jump back into the game.

    Then don't let me pause

    That's am artificial tension breaker

    The video game is a construct, you have to allow for a player to experience it at their convenience because they are a human with shit to do

    They aren't actually the character in the game

    Build your world and atmosphere but it has to be usable by a human in a reasonable fashion because that's who you're making it for

    As I already said, I'm fine with temporary saves (which would accomplish what you're asking for). It's requiring all games to have a permanent save-anywhere function that I find ludicrous and limiting.

    Some games use location-specific saves for tension, challenge, or pacing. This is not inherently a bad thing, but if it's not to your liking you aren't required to play it. There are entire genres out there that I don't like, but I don't see a reason to mandate that they change to suit me, I simply don't play them.

    The idea that all uses of this system are inherently broken and the audience it appeals to should be cut off so it can appeal to you instead is maddening.

    Besides, not all entertainment outside video games is designed to be bite-sized anyways. Board games, going to the theater, heck generally going out nearly anywhere (ie. museums, zoos, etc.) all have some sort of pre-built time commitment that is outside of your control. There are also a wide range of video games, some of which can be picked up and put down at anytime (like books) and some which cannot. There's no reason both cannot exist.

  • Options
    RehabRehab Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    -Tal wrote: »
    Rehab wrote: »
    Rehab wrote: »
    The ability for every game to allow saves at any time is independent of whether or not that is actually a good idea for a specific game. Punishing save states is integral to certain types of games. Survival horror that lets you save anywhere, for instance, is bullshit.

    Never gonna agree with this

    Its artificial tension, tension from something that is not the actual game and systems

    If you can't create the feeling and atmosphere you want without restricting my ability to play the game when I want to, I am much less likely to play your game

    The thing that strikes me as artificial is being in a hostile environment and going "okay save" at any given point when that should be limited to times when you have a moment to breathe. Tension is not being safe. You absolutely break it when you can dictate the point you jump back into the game.

    I can see the argument for not being able to save in the middle of a fight

    But if I'm just standing in a hallway I am having a moment to breathe

    That makes a certain amount of sense.

    However, being allowed to save usually indicates that you are completely safe (within that room) in that type of game. So if you can save in that hallway, that should actually be the case (no traps, no creatures through windows). But then again, the indication of whether you could save or not would blatantly point out that there is nothing to harm you and would thus take away from the suspense of not knowing if something is around the corner or not.

    Lars wrote: »
    Some games use location-specific saves for tension, challenge, or pacing. This is not inherently a bad thing, but if it's not to your liking you aren't required to play it. There are entire genres out there that I don't like, but I don't see a reason to mandate that they change to suit me, I simply don't play them.

    Bingo.

    Rehab on
    NNID: Rehab0
  • Options
    OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    Being able to save any time in a proper platformer would completely ruin the game. Having a game that's all about learning, repeating, and perfecting a set sequence where you can literally save every time you make an inch of progress would ruin the game. Even VVVVVV, the game that basically does what I just said (albeit, having been built with this functionality specifically in mind), has a multi-screen sequence that is incredibly punishing and you can't save until you've completed and it's the best part of the game. Save at every checkpoint in a stage? Sure. Being able to save after that one bullshit jump? Just put the damn game on SuperGuide because why are you even playing it at this point?

    cdci44qazyo3.gif

  • Options
    Mr. GMr. G Registered User regular
    You should be able to save anywhere in portable games and every other kind can do whatevs

    6F32U1X.png
  • Options
    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    Being able to save any time in a proper platformer would completely ruin the game. Having a game that's all about learning, repeating, and perfecting a set sequence where you can literally save every time you make an inch of progress would ruin the game. Even VVVVVV, the game that basically does what I just said (albeit, having been built with this functionality specifically in mind), has a multi-screen sequence that is incredibly punishing and you can't save until you've completed and it's the best part of the game. Save at every checkpoint in a stage? Sure. Being able to save after that one bullshit jump? Just put the damn game on SuperGuide because why are you even playing it at this point?

    To have fun

    Always, always the answer

  • Options
    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Lars wrote: »
    Rehab wrote: »
    Rehab wrote: »
    The ability for every game to allow saves at any time is independent of whether or not that is actually a good idea for a specific game. Punishing save states is integral to certain types of games. Survival horror that lets you save anywhere, for instance, is bullshit.

    Never gonna agree with this

    Its artificial tension, tension from something that is not the actual game and systems

    If you can't create the feeling and atmosphere you want without restricting my ability to play the game when I want to, I am much less likely to play your game

    The thing that strikes me as artificial is being in a hostile environment and going "okay save" at any given point when that should be limited to times when you have a moment to breathe. Tension is not being safe. You absolutely break it when you can dictate the point you jump back into the game.

    Then don't let me pause

    That's am artificial tension breaker

    The video game is a construct, you have to allow for a player to experience it at their convenience because they are a human with shit to do

    They aren't actually the character in the game

    Build your world and atmosphere but it has to be usable by a human in a reasonable fashion because that's who you're making it for

    As I already said, I'm fine with temporary saves (which would accomplish what you're asking for). It's requiring all games to have a permanent save-anywhere function that I find ludicrous and limiting.

    Some games use location-specific saves for tension, challenge, or pacing. This is not inherently a bad thing, but if it's not to your liking you aren't required to play it. There are entire genres out there that I don't like, but I don't see a reason to mandate that they change to suit me, I simply don't play them.

    The idea that all uses of this system are inherently broken and the audience it appeals to should be cut off so it can appeal to you instead is maddening.

    Besides, not all entertainment outside video games is designed to be bite-sized anyways. Board games, going to the theater, heck generally going out nearly anywhere (ie. museums, zoos, etc.) all have some sort of pre-built time commitment that is outside of your control. There are also a wide range of video games, some of which can be picked up and put down at anytime (like books) and some which cannot. There's no reason both cannot exist.

    I'm not saying they can't exist

    I'm saying the reasons I've seen for them existing are not compelling

    I can't think of any legitimate reason for you to be unable to save anywhere in Zelda, or a survival horror game, or whatever

    "tension" does not ring true to me as a reason at all

    I have a podcast about Power Rangers:Teenagers With Attitude | TWA Facebook Group
  • Options
    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    really manual saving wouldn't be necessary if video games figured out how to have consistently fair checkpoints

    PNk1Ml4.png
  • Options
    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    If you plan everything out you can just barely kill all four bosses and complete most of not all side quests in mm by the end of the game

    I know because I've done it

  • Options
    OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    Being able to save any time in a proper platformer would completely ruin the game. Having a game that's all about learning, repeating, and perfecting a set sequence where you can literally save every time you make an inch of progress would ruin the game. Even VVVVVV, the game that basically does what I just said (albeit, having been built with this functionality specifically in mind), has a multi-screen sequence that is incredibly punishing and you can't save until you've completed and it's the best part of the game. Save at every checkpoint in a stage? Sure. Being able to save after that one bullshit jump? Just put the damn game on SuperGuide because why are you even playing it at this point?

    To have fun

    Always, always the answer

    Yeah, but there's nothing fun about a game if you can circumvent the challenge. The entire point of a platformer is to challenge the user and force them to, through repetition, become better at the game. Similar example, being able to save scum action-by-action in RPGs. That frustration of screwing up and having to do the entire battle over again? That's by design. That is the intent of the game and where challenge comes from. If you think all games should give people the option to completely strip all challenge from them, then you and I have very different expectations of a video game and it's probably not worth continuing this discussion.

    cdci44qazyo3.gif

  • Options
    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    Being able to save any time in a proper platformer would completely ruin the game. Having a game that's all about learning, repeating, and perfecting a set sequence where you can literally save every time you make an inch of progress would ruin the game. Even VVVVVV, the game that basically does what I just said (albeit, having been built with this functionality specifically in mind), has a multi-screen sequence that is incredibly punishing and you can't save until you've completed and it's the best part of the game. Save at every checkpoint in a stage? Sure. Being able to save after that one bullshit jump? Just put the damn game on SuperGuide because why are you even playing it at this point?

    To have fun

    Always, always the answer

    Yeah, but there's nothing fun about a game if you can circumvent the challenge. The entire point of a platformer is to challenge the user and force them to, through repetition, become better at the game. Similar example, being able to save scum action-by-action in RPGs. That frustration of screwing up and having to do the entire battle over again? That's by design. That is the intent of the game and where challenge comes from. If you think all games should give people the option to completely strip all challenge from them, then you and I have very different expectations of a video game and it's probably not worth continuing this discussion.

    Alright then!

    Good talk

  • Options
    RehabRehab Registered User regular
    Ink ribbons are bullshit

    Typewriters are bullshit

    Reboot RE1 and put computer terminals there

    Computer terminals would look really out of place in a decrepit looking mansion that is meant to appear old.

    Actually, is it that the mansion is old and everything Umbrella built around it is new or is the mansion newly constructed to? I forget.

    NNID: Rehab0
  • Options
    OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    Anyway, Majora's Mask next week. Can't wait.

    cdci44qazyo3.gif

  • Options
    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    Typewriters in several rooms look really out of place too!

  • Options
    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    Save on your stars personal data assistant it's 1996

    PNk1Ml4.png
  • Options
    LarsLars Registered User regular
    I'm not saying they can't exist

    I'm saying the reasons I've seen for them existing are not compelling

    I can't think of any legitimate reason for you to be unable to save anywhere in Zelda, or a survival horror game, or whatever

    "tension" does not ring true to me as a reason at all

    It works for some people. You're not one of those people. That's all the legitimate reason it needs to exist (provided that it is targeted at those people...though admittedly most non-indie games now almost have to be targeted towards the majority instead of niche audiences due to game budgets being insane, but that's a separate thing).

  • Options
    Bluedude152Bluedude152 Registered User regular
    Anyway, Majora's Mask next week. Can't wait.

    Yeah I heard it has a great new save system

    p0a2ody6sqnt.jpg
  • Options
    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    If you don't want to save scum... Don't save scum.

  • Options
    RehabRehab Registered User regular
    Hey, you never know when you'll want to get back to typing up your memoirs.

    Better have one in the dining room too, just to be safe.

    NNID: Rehab0
  • Options
    LarsLars Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    If you don't want to save scum... Don't save scum.

    If you don't want to play games that expect you to make it through a part of the game in one sitting...don't play them.

  • Options
    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Rehab wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    Rehab wrote: »
    Rehab wrote: »
    The ability for every game to allow saves at any time is independent of whether or not that is actually a good idea for a specific game. Punishing save states is integral to certain types of games. Survival horror that lets you save anywhere, for instance, is bullshit.

    Never gonna agree with this

    Its artificial tension, tension from something that is not the actual game and systems

    If you can't create the feeling and atmosphere you want without restricting my ability to play the game when I want to, I am much less likely to play your game

    The thing that strikes me as artificial is being in a hostile environment and going "okay save" at any given point when that should be limited to times when you have a moment to breathe. Tension is not being safe. You absolutely break it when you can dictate the point you jump back into the game.

    I can see the argument for not being able to save in the middle of a fight

    But if I'm just standing in a hallway I am having a moment to breathe

    That makes a certain amount of sense.

    However, being allowed to save usually indicates that you are completely safe (within that room) in that type of game. So if you can save in that hallway, that should actually be the case (no traps, no creatures through windows). But then again, the indication of whether you could save or not would blatantly point out that there is nothing to harm you and would thus take away from the suspense of not knowing if something is around the corner or not.

    my logic is that if I am in a position in the game where I could potentially leave it running indefinitely standing still at that point without anything attacking me, my character has time to write a journal and I should be able to save

    If I step forward five feet and a zombie dog pops out then sure, but let me deal with that zombie dog later and if the zombie dog kills me let me load right before it instead of replaying half an hour

    -Tal on
    PNk1Ml4.png
  • Options
    RehabRehab Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    If you don't want to save scum... Don't save scum.

    See, its built right into the definition of saving all the time for fear of losing your precious progress. Scum. Scum!

    NNID: Rehab0
  • Options
    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    If you don't want to save scum... Don't save scum.

    This is my issue when I get down to it

    Just like I got in a huge fight with people about the huge amounts of sidewuests in dragon age inquisition, here's my big problem with this idea:

    If you don't want to, you can just not.

    I cannot save anywhere in a game that doesn't give me the option. YOU CAN, however, only save in certain spots or whatever rules you want if that makes the game better for you.

    If you feel it increases tension, don't abuse the save system.

    But don't restrict it for people whod rather it be on there.

    I have a podcast about Power Rangers:Teenagers With Attitude | TWA Facebook Group
  • Options
    NeveronNeveron HellValleySkyTree SwedenRegistered User regular
    edited February 2015
    If you plan everything out you can just barely kill all four bosses and complete most of not all side quests in mm by the end of the game

    I know because I've done it
    pretty sure you can't both save the bomb lady and do Kafei and Anju's quest, but that might be the only conflict

    the frogs would be pretty annoying, though, and in general you'd be very pressed for time



    on the topic of saving or the lack thereof, I'm imagining Nethack with free saves and that'd be a completely different game
    like, ridiculously so
    Majora's Mask isn't quite at that level when it comes to limited saves, but I kind of agree with Lars and Rehab. Dungeon items, masks and owl statues let you basically skip past large parts that you've already played. Although I'd be alright with being able to save anywhere in MM as long as it's of the non-permanent sort, to be honest.

    Neveron on
  • Options
    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    The recent revelation about the original Super Mario Bros. secretly letting you continue from the world you left off makes me wonder if they haven't always been against the bullshititude of restarting

    Maybe memory limitations were always their problem

  • Options
    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Just include an iron man mode in all games that potentially benefit from punishing save systems

  • Options
    OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    I just don't think it's unreasonable for the makers of a game to create artificial limits on what you can do or have expectations for how you play it. Obviously there's a point where the limitations get in the way of enjoyability (never finished Final Fantasy III DS because I died at the boss of a particularly challenging dungeon and just couldn't face doing the whole thing over again), but I don't think every single game should cater to the people who place that point at 0.

    cdci44qazyo3.gif

  • Options
    King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Mr. G wrote: »
    You can experience everything in Majora's Mask, but not in one go

    I don't think there's one perfect run where you can help everybody and then finish the game

    The things that persist between "runs" are your inventory and the money you put in the bank

    Everything else resets, but in proper Zelda fashion the equipment you have works as shortcuts to let you skip past the stuff you've already done

    Just about every sidequest rewards you with a mask that stays in your inventory

    Basically the goddess of Time ensures all your good deeds happen the mask is your proof. Just imagine hundreds of "ghost" links running around

    I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
This discussion has been closed.