The issue isn't necessarily forcing the top guy to pick Stitches, as it is the problem that the last guy generally doesn't get who he wants, no matter what role it is.
The problem is that in solo queue, if you have a player who wants to play a tank, and he gets randomly assigned into position 5, he's pretty much SOL at all of the good picks. Not just one or two. By the time the game rotates to him, he's not going to be able to pick the hero he wants to play.
If JohnnyAwesome is the best Tyrael player in the whole world, and he gets position 5, his skill with Tyrael might as well not even exist, because the likelihood that Tyrael is still available by the time he gets to choose is practically nil.
If you really only want to play one role or character and one only, I would argue it might be best to stick to quick match. That's why Blizzard does it that way so people can always play whoever they want.
Coming into ranked with that mentality is going to bone you. I'm not saying if you want to play a warrior you HAVE to only play Pudge or Arthas, but you should be prepared to play any role.
I'm not even sure hero swapping would alleviate the issue. If you only want to play Tyrael, ever, what happens when one or two other people on your team want to play him, or only want to play warrior? You don't need three, and sometimes more than only one is overkill.
It's not about wanting to play only one role. It's about wanting to play your best role in ranked. This is a thing in MOBAs period.
Now I think everyone needs to have a couple of roles so if you do get stuck on one you're not totally out of your depth.
But swapping will absolutely take the sting out of both issues people are talking about here. Both the first pick being relegated to top tier only and bottom pick not getting the role he would prefer. Sure you're still gonna have those times where 3 guys want to play warrior. That's just how it goes. But the system as you guys are describing it, with no swapping, makes it where even nice folks who are willing to communicate get screwed by pick order. That's really gonna need to change and probably will.
i think this would be a good change. i tend to avoid hero league unless someone wants to specifically play it (read: never play it without a request to). i like playing anub'arak or other warriors, then specialists, then support then assassins. there's a pretty big gap between each of those too. you can push me into taking an assassin or whatever other role but it's going to be bad news. i almost want the WoW-like queue as a role, but it assuredly would lead to disastrous queue times as it does there (or did when i was still playing).
then again people will always find a way to troll or make other's lives more difficult and hero trading/swapping won't be any different
The issue isn't necessarily forcing the top guy to pick Stitches, as it is the problem that the last guy generally doesn't get who he wants, no matter what role it is.
The problem is that in solo queue, if you have a player who wants to play a tank, and he gets randomly assigned into position 5, he's pretty much SOL at all of the good picks. Not just one or two. By the time the game rotates to him, he's not going to be able to pick the hero he wants to play.
If JohnnyAwesome is the best Tyrael player in the whole world, and he gets position 5, his skill with Tyrael might as well not even exist, because the likelihood that Tyrael is still available by the time he gets to choose is practically nil.
If you really only want to play one role or character and one only, I would argue it might be best to stick to quick match. That's why Blizzard does it that way so people can always play whoever they want.
Coming into ranked with that mentality is going to bone you. I'm not saying if you want to play a warrior you HAVE to only play Pudge or Arthas, but you should be prepared to play any role.
I'm not even sure hero swapping would alleviate the issue. If you only want to play Tyrael, ever, what happens when one or two other people on your team want to play him, or only want to play warrior? You don't need three, and sometimes more than only one is overkill.
It's not about wanting to play only one role. It's about wanting to play your best role in ranked. This is a thing in MOBAs period.
Now I think everyone needs to have a couple of roles so if you do get stuck on one you're not totally out of your depth.
But swapping will absolutely take the sting out of both issues people are talking about here. Both the first pick being relegated to top tier only and bottom pick not getting the role he would prefer. Sure you're still gonna have those times where 3 guys want to play warrior. That's just how it goes. But the system as you guys are describing it, with no swapping, makes it where even nice folks who are willing to communicate get screwed by pick order. That's really gonna need to change and probably will.
i think this would be a good change. i tend to avoid hero league unless someone wants to specifically play it (read: never play it without a request to). i like playing anub'arak or other warriors, then specialists, then support then assassins. there's a pretty big gap between each of those too. you can push me into taking an assassin or whatever other role but it's going to be bad news. i almost want the WoW-like queue as a role, but it assuredly would lead to disastrous queue times as it does there (or did when i was still playing).
then again people will always find a way to troll or make other's lives more difficult and hero trading/swapping won't be any different
That queue as a role thing would probably be a lot better in a MOBA than in WoW, because there's probably a lot more people willing to play a healer in a MOBA than have the patience to heal pugs in WoW.
God can I play one sodding game as support that isn't a write off from the start? Trying to learn Tyrande, my team is Murky, Azmodan, Diablo and Nova.
Just fuck it, I'm never picking any support again ever. Apparently the matchmaking algorithm is literally incapable of sorting out even a half-decent composition whenever I choose a support.
Tyrande is kind of like Tassadar where you can just solo a lane or be a decent damage source if there's nobody worth supporting. If Nova is decent those two can set up some nice kills with the slow and stun.
See, I love playing Abathur. Utterly love him. And my little group and me have a good thing going - since the patch, we've won 8 games and only lost 1.
But we've still only played him once in hero league because it just doesn't feel fair to the other players. As much as I like playing him, it definitely feels like you want a group of 5 to try oddball combinations.
Is hammer considered top-tier or pro-level viable?
I'm liking her more and more because she doesn't require full-on micro but I'm not sure how viable she is due to her immobility.
I'm also starting to think that for team fights the cannon is better than napalm because it just bursts so well rather than the long, and very dodgeable dps. As in, there's a reason Faltstad's lazer beam ult is commonly used. That burst is what can win fights with healers as they may not heal fast enough.
The napalm is waaaay better for sieging but I just don't seem to get the umph in team fights, which usually don't last very long.
Not really. She doesn't push lanes as well as some of the other specialists until level 10 and Napalm. Cannon travels much more slowly than similar linear ults so doesn't get favored as much as Napalm's ability to harass and do area denial on a near constant basis. Her autoattack damage is good but not that much better than that of many assassins that bring burst to the table (even accounting for her extra damage at longer range). She's usable, but a player able to handle her positioning requirements well is likely going to do even better with another hero that requires positioning considerations.
Her extra damage at longer range, aside from the talent choices, is a passive 30% against minions and structures. She can siege really really well because it's all just basic attack (no mana or ammo to worry about).
But yeah... I think she's only good in an all-specialist team like we did earlier.
WHICH, we need to do again, and actually plan it out. I seriously think it's viable... at least vs pubs. ^^'
Hammer is actually going up the rankings now - on certain maps she's a tier one pick (dragon shire for example). Definitely a lot more popular in tournaments than she was a couple of months ago.
However, you build her entirely for damage - ignore her ability to split push, it's all about space control and damage on heroes. Her ability to push lanes is totally secondary at best.
Her extra damage at longer range, aside from the talent choices, is a passive 30% against minions and structures. She can siege really really well because it's all just basic attack (no mana or ammo to worry about).
But yeah... I think she's only good in an all-specialist team like we did earlier.
WHICH, we need to do again, and actually plan it out. I seriously think it's viable... at least vs pubs. ^^'
and yes I think on most maps.
I am always down for more specialist blitzing. My only regret is not having more of them to make it easier on others. Though I have yet to try 2 and buying either sight unseen seems... ill advised.
"Undead Monkey" Who is Pudge? I'm guessing a Stitches type character from another MOBA but i'm not sure. It makes it hard to follow your post sometimes if i'm not familiar with the game you're talking about.
Pudge is from DotA. Presumably Stitches was a character back in the original DotA made from Warcraft III, then DotA renamed him to Pudge to avoid copyright stuff, and now Blizzard has brought Stitches back. They're basically the same character (both revolving around hook into ult disable).
Stitches is the enemy from WoW who most closely resembles the abomination unit from WC3, and is thus kind of an iconic undead person/monster/thing.
The hard thing for me about specialists is they don't really "specialize" in anything. It's a balance issue, sure, or Blizzard figuring out exactly what niche they want specialists to fill, but in some cases (Nazeebo and Zagara for example), they can fill other roles (assassins in this case) as good or better than heroes designated to those other classes.
Nazeebo's Gargantuan and Zagara's Nydus Worm ults fit their roles quite well, but their other ults are some of the best for team fights, period. Specialists should be taken at the expense of not having another role. You are giving up healing, team fight damage, tankiness, etc. in order to split push more efficiently.
We just won another 5 specialist game on the temple map. Took some coordination but BOOM.
Ed: this was tougher because they activate so fast so the enemy team, who could hold them better than us, kept up on levels sorta.
After the mid game we basically avoided the temples and focused on mercs and pushing. Taking the boss down took like 4 seconds flat.
In the end when they went temple we just backdoored and took the core down in like 10 secs.
If what I've posited above were true (and by true I mean specialists actually specializing, not being hybrids), a five specialist comp should not work. But because Zagara and Nazeebo do so much damage, and Azmodan is so tanky, and they all have decent self healing, you aren't terribly gimped in teamfights. Gimped to a degree? Sure, but probably not enough.
Nazeebo and Zagara are basically good at everything for sure, good at fighting, good at pushing/siege, good at objectives/camps. The true specialists are Abathur, Gazlowe (area lockdown) and Azmodan (pushing).
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
We just won another 5 specialist game on the temple map. Took some coordination but BOOM.
Ed: this was tougher because they activate so fast so the enemy team, who could hold them better than us, kept up on levels sorta.
After the mid game we basically avoided the temples and focused on mercs and pushing. Taking the boss down took like 4 seconds flat.
In the end when they went temple we just backdoored and took the core down in like 10 secs.
who is urlbadman? I played a match with him and oksmokies after you left and the guy went off on me for not willingly entering zeratul's prison with the rest of the team who was already trapped.
he called me trash and said he'd kick me from the party, so I muted him and left of my own free will.
Nazeebo and Zagara are basically good at everything for sure, good at fighting, good at pushing/siege, good at objectives/camps. The true specialists are Abathur, Gazlowe (area lockdown) and Azmodan (pushing).
Yeah, that's very true. And I guess Murky specializes in, "aww crap, who invited him?"
The hard thing for me about specialists is they don't really "specialize" in anything. It's a balance issue, sure, or Blizzard figuring out exactly what niche they want specialists to fill, but in some cases (Nazeebo and Zagara for example), they can fill other roles (assassins in this case) as good or better than heroes designated to those other classes.
specialist really is just a catch-all for weird mechanics and pushing stuff...sorta.
The hard thing for me about specialists is they don't really "specialize" in anything. It's a balance issue, sure, or Blizzard figuring out exactly what niche they want specialists to fill, but in some cases (Nazeebo and Zagara for example), they can fill other roles (assassins in this case) as good or better than heroes designated to those other classes.
specialist really is just a catch-all for weird mechanics and pushing stuff...sorta.
Yeah pushing just so happens to be the most common role that qualifies you to be a Specialist, but it applies to anything that breaks the conventional trinity. Nazeebo is basically an assassin they just called a specialist because his moves are so weird.
We just won another 5 specialist game on the temple map. Took some coordination but BOOM.
Ed: this was tougher because they activate so fast so the enemy team, who could hold them better than us, kept up on levels sorta.
After the mid game we basically avoided the temples and focused on mercs and pushing. Taking the boss down took like 4 seconds flat.
In the end when they went temple we just backdoored and took the core down in like 10 secs.
who is urlbadman? I played a match with him and oksmokies after you left and the guy went off on me for not willingly entering zeratul's prison with the rest of the team who was already trapped.
he called me trash and said he'd kick me from the party, so I muted him and left of my own free will.
we still won the match.
Not sure who that is... if he's not from here he's from early alpha access when I was adding people like mad to avoid pubs.
Honestly, I can't think of a way Nazeebo left alone pushes all that much harder than, say, Valla. Certainly has some extra oomph, but not a ton. Tychus can do a serviceable job as well. Specialist just seems to mean really weird design and I like that honestly. I don't think the game needs a designated split pushing category, nor do I think such a role is powerful enough to decrease potential utility outside of split pushing a whole ton. Certainly you shouldn't be able to spec into amazing split pushing, and supreme damage at the same time, but you need the specialists to be able to do something when all fights become 5v5.
Honestly, I can't think of a way Nazeebo left alone pushes all that much harder than, say, Valla. Certainly has some extra oomph, but not a ton. Tychus can do a serviceable job as well. Specialist just seems to mean really weird design and I like that honestly. I don't think the game needs a designated split pushing category, nor do I think such a role is powerful enough to decrease potential utility outside of split pushing a whole ton. Certainly you shouldn't be able to spec into amazing split pushing, and supreme damage at the same time, but you need the specialists to be able to do something when all fights become 5v5.
Nazeebo left alone may not push as hard but he usually gets a lot stronger than Valla or Tychus would from it. Being able to get permanent bumps to his health and mana from pushing a lane is pretty special right now.
I've been playing so much Tyrael lately (dat master skin tho....) that I forgot how goddamn amazing my boy ARTHO is. Like holy shit, I had a match tonight where I did like 90k Hero damage as Arthas! That's insane! I mean, he's fucking crazy. Perma-snare with Frozen Tempest, great lockdown with Howling Blast, incredible healing with Death Coil/Rune Tap/Ghouls, and stupid good damage with Envenom/Frostmourne Hungers.
Good god, nerf him already please. I mean he's great, but fuck.
Talents feel so half-done right now. I think Abathur is what they're shooting for as a template for heroes, but they already take so long to put out a hero with placeholder talents.
It is half done. I'm just glad they pulled the trigger on resurgence and made some steps forward with the falstad and lili talents. Hopefully those are good indications of what comes next.
It is half done. I'm just glad they pulled the trigger on resurgence and made some steps forward with the falstad and lili talents. Hopefully those are good indications of what comes next.
Yeah, technically it started with the Nova rework, I think? They're slowly but surely pushing out better talents and reworking the bad ones.
Even with the reworks there's still some really shit ones left in, though. Like Falstad has a Tier 7 talent that removes the mana cost from Barrel Roll. What the fuck, why would you EVER pick that? And Nova still has that dumb mana cost reduction talent for Snipe. So on and so forth.
I'd also be happy to see more of the generic talents gone. Rewind is slowly being phased out, which is good. Envenom/Gathering Power, despite being good, are problematic in that they offer no other choice, because they're way too good. Nothing else compares.
I feel like Fury of the Storm is fine in theory, but needs a buff. 50% isn't strong enough, but maybe if it were 75% it'd be a strong pick for AA builds? 100% would probably be too strong. Also, this is sort of a long-term thing, but my hope is that eventually there's multiple level 20 Ult Upgrades to choose from. So using Kerrigan as an example, she has Omegastorm which increases the size by 25% and shields by 100%. But maybe you could have another talent that increases the duration, or one that increases the damage, or maybe one that gives it lifesteal. Either way, multiple level 20 Ult Upgrades would be a nice thing to have.
Dibby on
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
0
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Does Muradin's Avatar stuns bounce with fury of the storm?
Does Muradin's Avatar stuns bounce with fury of the storm?
No, no extra effects, just the damage.
However if it's a "split" auto-attack it will, but I don't think those are in the game anymore.
Used to be Medusa Blades was three separate auto-attacks at once, and she(Zagara) used to also have access to Fury of the Storm. If you got both, crazy cleaveshit happened.
Removing resurgence actually added a lot of fun for me. I am a flavor/lore person so I love the idea of anub'arak's locust for example, but you could never justify taking that over resurgence. Similarly on azmodan getting whatever the level 20 is that makes your demons explode instead of resurgence. I dont mind the idea of resurgence but it was just categorically better than any other option.
By 13 you will know if you need to be a strong presence in teamfights (and thus take march of sin) or if you need to be a fat, splitpushing asshole (and thus take blazing demons).
If you take blazing demons, ABSOLUTELY take Battleborn.
If the enemy has another Azmodan, Demonic Smite will let you counter him incredibly hard. It's also helpful for taking merc camps. If you're already getting help taking merc camps, or you took blazing demons, Battleborn.
Now, if the map doesn't have a golem camp, it's not awful to take Black Pool and just dunk on people. But your Golem Soloing is one of Azmo's most powerful tricks, so...
Didn't they change the mechanics of Demonic Invasion so that they have actual health now? One golem stomp will kill all of them, and I think they also changed the Golem to trigger his stomp when there's a certain number of minions nearby.
Actually yeah, just found it in the patch notes:
Demonic Invasion (R)
Demonic Grunts now have real Health, rather than Doubloon Chest-style Health.
Stomp
The post-cast delay on Stomp has been removed.
Stomp will now be cast when there are at least 2 Heroic units around the Grave Golem, or at least 3 Minions.
Stomp will not be cast unless the Grave Golem is already stationary.
Stomp now deals increased damage versus Minions.
So... can you still solo the Golem with Demonic Invasion? Can anyone confirm? I don't own Azmodan, so I don't know.
Yes, but you'll lose some demons on the way. It takes a few more seconds, but it's absolutely still possible.
Does anyone else have issues with their characters not consistently using wells when they're set up as a waypoint? Sometimes my character will not actually use the well before moving to the next waypoint and it annoys the shit out of me.
Posts
for the most part yeah, but it is definitively more difficult.
i think this would be a good change. i tend to avoid hero league unless someone wants to specifically play it (read: never play it without a request to). i like playing anub'arak or other warriors, then specialists, then support then assassins. there's a pretty big gap between each of those too. you can push me into taking an assassin or whatever other role but it's going to be bad news. i almost want the WoW-like queue as a role, but it assuredly would lead to disastrous queue times as it does there (or did when i was still playing).
then again people will always find a way to troll or make other's lives more difficult and hero trading/swapping won't be any different
WoWtcg and general gaming podcast
WoWtcg and gaming website
That queue as a role thing would probably be a lot better in a MOBA than in WoW, because there's probably a lot more people willing to play a healer in a MOBA than have the patience to heal pugs in WoW.
Tyrande is kind of like Tassadar where you can just solo a lane or be a decent damage source if there's nobody worth supporting. If Nova is decent those two can set up some nice kills with the slow and stun.
But we've still only played him once in hero league because it just doesn't feel fair to the other players. As much as I like playing him, it definitely feels like you want a group of 5 to try oddball combinations.
Not really. She doesn't push lanes as well as some of the other specialists until level 10 and Napalm. Cannon travels much more slowly than similar linear ults so doesn't get favored as much as Napalm's ability to harass and do area denial on a near constant basis. Her autoattack damage is good but not that much better than that of many assassins that bring burst to the table (even accounting for her extra damage at longer range). She's usable, but a player able to handle her positioning requirements well is likely going to do even better with another hero that requires positioning considerations.
Steam Profile
3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
But yeah... I think she's only good in an all-specialist team like we did earlier.
WHICH, we need to do again, and actually plan it out. I seriously think it's viable... at least vs pubs. ^^'
and yes I think on most maps.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
However, you build her entirely for damage - ignore her ability to split push, it's all about space control and damage on heroes. Her ability to push lanes is totally secondary at best.
I am always down for more specialist blitzing. My only regret is not having more of them to make it easier on others. Though I have yet to try 2 and buying either sight unseen seems... ill advised.
Again we were 1-2 levels ahead the whole game.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Isn't Sgt. Hammer also a Specialist though?
Rocket Wizard
Mines. :bzz:
Ed: this was tougher because they activate so fast so the enemy team, who could hold them better than us, kept up on levels sorta.
After the mid game we basically avoided the temples and focused on mercs and pushing. Taking the boss down took like 4 seconds flat.
In the end when they went temple we just backdoored and took the core down in like 10 secs.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Nazeebo's Gargantuan and Zagara's Nydus Worm ults fit their roles quite well, but their other ults are some of the best for team fights, period. Specialists should be taken at the expense of not having another role. You are giving up healing, team fight damage, tankiness, etc. in order to split push more efficiently.
I dunno. I could be overthinking it.
If what I've posited above were true (and by true I mean specialists actually specializing, not being hybrids), a five specialist comp should not work. But because Zagara and Nazeebo do so much damage, and Azmodan is so tanky, and they all have decent self healing, you aren't terribly gimped in teamfights. Gimped to a degree? Sure, but probably not enough.
XBL: InvaderJims
Bnet: Pudgestomp#11153
who is urlbadman? I played a match with him and oksmokies after you left and the guy went off on me for not willingly entering zeratul's prison with the rest of the team who was already trapped.
he called me trash and said he'd kick me from the party, so I muted him and left of my own free will.
we still won the match.
Yeah, that's very true. And I guess Murky specializes in, "aww crap, who invited him?"
XBL: InvaderJims
Bnet: Pudgestomp#11153
specialist really is just a catch-all for weird mechanics and pushing stuff...sorta.
WoWtcg and general gaming podcast
WoWtcg and gaming website
Yeah pushing just so happens to be the most common role that qualifies you to be a Specialist, but it applies to anything that breaks the conventional trinity. Nazeebo is basically an assassin they just called a specialist because his moves are so weird.
Not sure who that is... if he's not from here he's from early alpha access when I was adding people like mad to avoid pubs.
@Undead Monkey
When we do 5 specialists, we actually generally avoid team fights and split push like we were still wearing shoulder pads in 1999.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Nazeebo left alone may not push as hard but he usually gets a lot stronger than Valla or Tychus would from it. Being able to get permanent bumps to his health and mana from pushing a lane is pretty special right now.
Steam Profile
3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Good god, nerf him already please. I mean he's great, but fuck.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I mean, who takes Fury of the Storm on Muradin.
Streaming 8PST on weeknights
Yeah, technically it started with the Nova rework, I think? They're slowly but surely pushing out better talents and reworking the bad ones.
Even with the reworks there's still some really shit ones left in, though. Like Falstad has a Tier 7 talent that removes the mana cost from Barrel Roll. What the fuck, why would you EVER pick that? And Nova still has that dumb mana cost reduction talent for Snipe. So on and so forth.
I'd also be happy to see more of the generic talents gone. Rewind is slowly being phased out, which is good. Envenom/Gathering Power, despite being good, are problematic in that they offer no other choice, because they're way too good. Nothing else compares.
I feel like Fury of the Storm is fine in theory, but needs a buff. 50% isn't strong enough, but maybe if it were 75% it'd be a strong pick for AA builds? 100% would probably be too strong. Also, this is sort of a long-term thing, but my hope is that eventually there's multiple level 20 Ult Upgrades to choose from. So using Kerrigan as an example, she has Omegastorm which increases the size by 25% and shields by 100%. But maybe you could have another talent that increases the duration, or one that increases the damage, or maybe one that gives it lifesteal. Either way, multiple level 20 Ult Upgrades would be a nice thing to have.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
No, no extra effects, just the damage.
However if it's a "split" auto-attack it will, but I don't think those are in the game anymore.
Used to be Medusa Blades was three separate auto-attacks at once, and she(Zagara) used to also have access to Fury of the Storm. If you got both, crazy cleaveshit happened.
WoWtcg and general gaming podcast
WoWtcg and gaming website
Yes, but you'll lose some demons on the way. It takes a few more seconds, but it's absolutely still possible.