BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
edited November 2021
In having a night in at my parent's place for a late Thanksgiving, we've proceeded to binge like 6 hours of programming on various services. Mom is a little prudish and wasn't really into Game of Thrones, though dad certainly enjoyed meeting Ros and Tyrion.
Babylon 5 had my dad's undivided attention and he wants us to watch 2-3 episodes a week if I can find the time so yea new convert.
Third show as Lucifer and dad loved the smarmy doucheness of the title character, whilst my.70 year old mother was having reactions to Tom Ellis similar to Dr. Martin in the first few episodes. So that show is now an agenda item to join the parents in watching it.
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No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
In having a night in at my parent's place for a late Thanksgiving, we've proceeded to binge like 6 hours of programming on various services. Mom is a little prudish and wasn't really into Game of Thrones, though dad certainly enjoyed meeting Ros and Tyrion.
Babylon 5 had my dad's undivided attention and he wants us to watch 2-3 episodes a week if I can find the time so yea new convert.
Third show as Lucifer and dad loved the smarmy doucheness of the title character, whilst my.70 year old mother was having reactions to Tom Ellis similar to Dr. Martin in the first few episodes. So that show is now an agenda item to join the parents in watching it.
Hate to break it to you, but I think your parents are nerds.
Awesome.
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WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
The ship design in B5 is generally awesome. The Earthforce ships genuinely look like something that the human military would come up with. And every race has a unique look.
I think this is due to the setting, the background technology for FTL flight. In Star Trek, there is basically only one way that anyone can go FTL, warp. That takes warp nacelles, which are long design elements and have to be incorporated fore to aft into the design. This has pluses and minuses. The up side is that you can have the Borg show up with ships that don’t conform to that limitation and it makes them look sooooo much different. The down side is that pretty much everyone else has a ship design that is limited by having to incorporate the FTL engines. It doesn’t make them super similar, but it is a limiting element to the design. We can all look at at a Trek ship and go “ Yep, them’s the engines.”
B5 had hyperspace as their magic FTL system with the only limitation being the creation of the jump point. That gave them more freedom to design ships for various races since there wasn’t a limiting element that needed to be on every ship.
It’s an interesting bit of how world building can just happen and have a huge impact on what we’re watching.
Earth Alliance ships are brutal and functional, Centauri have more artistry being an Imperial power concerned with appearances, Narn are mass produced and functional, Mimbari are all about organic shapes as are the Vorlons.
Even the little things add to that worldbuilding - like Centauri / Minbari ships having artificial gravity, but Narn and human ships having to find ways around it (humans have their rotating sections, Narn are clearly strapped to their chairs in some of the ship scenes). I don't remember it ever being something that anyone makes a big deal of, but it's there in the background in a way that isn't ever referenced in Trek.
I don't remember if it was ever mentioned in the show, or if it's just something that came up through various fan sites or bulletin boards, but the Narn ships don't have artificial gravity, but they're designed in such a way that looks like they do from the outside so they look more technically advanced than they are.
So, while humanity has big spinny sections on their ship for simulated gravity, virtually advertising to everyone that humanity is barely out of the stone age when it comes to interstellar travel, Narns just make do with extra seatbelts and bouncing around a bit so they look more impressive.
In truth, EA Omega destroyers are one of the heaviest hitting warships out of any of the younger races. They're all thrust, armor and firepower.
With reverse engineered Shadow tech they were able to destroy White Stars.
I don't think the Omega class destroyers appeared on the show; those were "advanced" ships that never got a proper class name on screen, IIRC. After the Omega class got mentioned, people online kept begging JMS to show one in S5 or in Crusade. I think maybe he said you could see one for a few frames in A Call to Arms, something like that.
Maybe in later years he's gone back on that and said that the Shadow tech ships were the Omegas, but he definitely drew a line between the two concepts in 1998.
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BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
In having a night in at my parent's place for a late Thanksgiving, we've proceeded to binge like 6 hours of programming on various services. Mom is a little prudish and wasn't really into Game of Thrones, though dad certainly enjoyed meeting Ros and Tyrion.
Babylon 5 had my dad's undivided attention and he wants us to watch 2-3 episodes a week if I can find the time so yea new convert.
Third show as Lucifer and dad loved the smarmy doucheness of the title character, whilst my.70 year old mother was having reactions to Tom Ellis similar to Dr. Martin in the first few episodes. So that show is now an agenda item to join the parents in watching it.
Hate to break it to you, but I think your parents are nerds.
Awesome.
My dad had been working with computers and building automation.systems since the 1970's, so I knew he was a huge geek, discovering mom had such tendencies was the surprising part.
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
The ship design in B5 is generally awesome. The Earthforce ships genuinely look like something that the human military would come up with. And every race has a unique look.
I think this is due to the setting, the background technology for FTL flight. In Star Trek, there is basically only one way that anyone can go FTL, warp. That takes warp nacelles, which are long design elements and have to be incorporated fore to aft into the design. This has pluses and minuses. The up side is that you can have the Borg show up with ships that don’t conform to that limitation and it makes them look sooooo much different. The down side is that pretty much everyone else has a ship design that is limited by having to incorporate the FTL engines. It doesn’t make them super similar, but it is a limiting element to the design. We can all look at at a Trek ship and go “ Yep, them’s the engines.”
B5 had hyperspace as their magic FTL system with the only limitation being the creation of the jump point. That gave them more freedom to design ships for various races since there wasn’t a limiting element that needed to be on every ship.
It’s an interesting bit of how world building can just happen and have a huge impact on what we’re watching.
Earth Alliance ships are brutal and functional, Centauri have more artistry being an Imperial power concerned with appearances, Narn are mass produced and functional, Mimbari are all about organic shapes as are the Vorlons.
Even the little things add to that worldbuilding - like Centauri / Minbari ships having artificial gravity, but Narn and human ships having to find ways around it (humans have their rotating sections, Narn are clearly strapped to their chairs in some of the ship scenes). I don't remember it ever being something that anyone makes a big deal of, but it's there in the background in a way that isn't ever referenced in Trek.
I don't remember if it was ever mentioned in the show, or if it's just something that came up through various fan sites or bulletin boards, but the Narn ships don't have artificial gravity, but they're designed in such a way that looks like they do from the outside so they look more technically advanced than they are.
So, while humanity has big spinny sections on their ship for simulated gravity, virtually advertising to everyone that humanity is barely out of the stone age when it comes to interstellar travel, Narns just make do with extra seatbelts and bouncing around a bit so they look more impressive.
In truth, EA Omega destroyers are one of the heaviest hitting warships out of any of the younger races. They're all thrust, armor and firepower.
With reverse engineereddeniably supplied Shadow tech they were able to destroy White Stars.
Fixed that for you.
I had thought the origin of the tech,
Wasn't the Shadows donating it, but rather taken from the ruins of ships found on Mars. Though I haven't seen that season recently, I'm still on 2.
I remember the B5 space combat hex game. One of the cool bits was there was an electronic warfare phase where you essentially split your pool of EM countermeasures between getting a target lock on an enemy ship and scrambling their lock on you. The Mimbari had a ton of points here...this was why they were winning against Earth...the earther ships simply couldn't target the Mimbari cruisers.
Doing damage to stuff in space isn't hard with the velocities and potential energy of kinetic or energy weapons...but hitting an advanced enemy at all through their EM interference is the real trick.
I remember the B5 space combat hex game. One of the cool bits was there was an electronic warfare phase where you essentially split your pool of EM countermeasures between getting a target lock on an enemy ship and scrambling their lock on you. The Mimbari had a ton of points here...this was why they were winning against Earth...the earther ships simply couldn't target the Mimbari cruisers.
Doing damage to stuff in space isn't hard with the velocities and potential energy of kinetic or energy weapons...but hitting an advanced enemy at all through their EM interference is the real trick.
One of the "flaws" of filmed sci-fi battles, is that the ships are often so close they're scraping paint off each other. Which makes the whole targetting thing just look dumb. If they're that close, optical sighting with a dedicated firing circuit, and you'll miss often, but you'll at least hit occasionally, regardless of the EW.
I mean, I get why they do it, but it does make some things just weird.
Making my way through season 5 and the end is in sight. Not super digging this season, to be honest, but it's still good. Better than season one is my low bar. Having multiple characters tell me how awesome the new Captain is grates on me a lot. She's no Ivanova.
I miss Ivanova.
One nice thing about the show is the attention to detail / callbacks to prior shows, even if just regarding how characters act. I'm not sure if I'm sold on G'Kar's face turn to being friends with Mollari, but they're excellent together so I'll allow it.
The show does a much better job of reminding you Bester is not a good guy / you shouldn't like him whenever you get even close to sympathizing with him than DS9 did with Dukat.
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I remember the B5 space combat hex game. One of the cool bits was there was an electronic warfare phase where you essentially split your pool of EM countermeasures between getting a target lock on an enemy ship and scrambling their lock on you. The Mimbari had a ton of points here...this was why they were winning against Earth...the earther ships simply couldn't target the Mimbari cruisers.
Doing damage to stuff in space isn't hard with the velocities and potential energy of kinetic or energy weapons...but hitting an advanced enemy at all through their EM interference is the real trick.
One of the "flaws" of filmed sci-fi battles, is that the ships are often so close they're scraping paint off each other. Which makes the whole targetting thing just look dumb. If they're that close, optical sighting with a dedicated firing circuit, and you'll miss often, but you'll at least hit occasionally, regardless of the EW.
I mean, I get why they do it, but it does make some things just weird.
I liked that B5 tried to address that now and then. That one battle between the Narns and the Shadows near the end of the Centauri war had visual cues dropped all over the place suggesting the fleets probably never got within a half a light-second of each other.
Making my way through season 5 and the end is in sight. Not super digging this season, to be honest, but it's still good. Better than season one is my low bar. Having multiple characters tell me how awesome the new Captain is grates on me a lot. She's no Ivanova.
I miss Ivanova.
One nice thing about the show is the attention to detail / callbacks to prior shows, even if just regarding how characters act. I'm not sure if I'm sold on G'Kar's face turn to being friends with Mollari, but they're excellent together so I'll allow it.
The show does a much better job of reminding you Bester is not a good guy / you shouldn't like him whenever you get even close to sympathizing with him than DS9 did with Dukat.
Bester may not, but Walter Koenig is.
About 15 years ago, I was at GenCon, and Koenig was one of the stars making an appearance. And prior to opening up the area for access for autographs and photos, he was at the table, talking with one of his handlers. Every couple of minute, he would put the fingers of his right hand to his temple, and then just look at someone in the crowd. Maintain eye contact for a couple seconds, giving the full Bester, before breaking out into this adorable old man grin. Then he'd go back to talking with his handler, before repeating it again and again.
It was shocking how small and frail he looked, though. But he definitely seemed to be enjoying himself.
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BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
Making my way through season 5 and the end is in sight. Not super digging this season, to be honest, but it's still good. Better than season one is my low bar. Having multiple characters tell me how awesome the new Captain is grates on me a lot. She's no Ivanova.
I miss Ivanova.
One nice thing about the show is the attention to detail / callbacks to prior shows, even if just regarding how characters act. I'm not sure if I'm sold on G'Kar's face turn to being friends with Mollari, but they're excellent together so I'll allow it.
The show does a much better job of reminding you Bester is not a good guy / you shouldn't like him whenever you get even close to sympathizing with him than DS9 did with Dukat.
But he definitely seemed to be enjoying himself.
Based on my observing and meeting him at cons over the last 20 years, I don't think he's ever not enjoying himself, which is a very rare thing.
While I love him as Bester, for me the best Walter Koenig moment is still:
"Chekov, Pavel...rank...ADMIRAL!"
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
Making my way through season 5 and the end is in sight. Not super digging this season, to be honest, but it's still good. Better than season one is my low bar. Having multiple characters tell me how awesome the new Captain is grates on me a lot. She's no Ivanova.
I miss Ivanova.
One nice thing about the show is the attention to detail / callbacks to prior shows, even if just regarding how characters act. I'm not sure if I'm sold on G'Kar's face turn to being friends with Mollari, but they're excellent together so I'll allow it.
The show does a much better job of reminding you Bester is not a good guy / you shouldn't like him whenever you get even close to sympathizing with him than DS9 did with Dukat.
Thing about Bester is that he only shows up when he wants or needs something from B5, and there's only one or two instances where what he want's isn't, at best, morally dubious. Plus he made it very clear early on that he's a telepath-supremacist, no beating around the bush, just straight up saying that telepaths are superior and normies are totally expendable. Dukat OTOH shows up sort of randomly and while he's a dick, doesn't have that same constant line of horribleness. Sometimes he shows up to see his daughter, can't really hate him for that, and other times the DS9 crew call him up for a favor and he'll help out (and sometimes screw them over at the end).
I don't think that sympathetic villain is the best phrase to use for either character, sympathy is a loaded word. Relatable is probably better, but the difference between the way the two characters are presented is that Bester is always portrayed as a villain, his ultimate goals are in conflict with those of the B5 crew, and nearly every appearance makes that very clear. Dukat though, a lot of his appearances drop the villain bit or have a main plot that somehow manages to overshadow his villainy. The
episode with Kira's mother for example. A straight 'comfort women' scenario, but somehow the sexual slavery bit comes in second to Kira's whole attempt to kill her mother and her hard line view towards all collaborators.
Best Bester bit:
S4, end of the civil war. Sheridan is hanging in the conference room, Bester comes in knowing how they disabled the Earthforce fleet, and tells Sheridan that if Bester's lover was used in the diversion than Sheridan will be killed as soon as he leaves the building. No hyperbole or drama in the delivery, just stating facts. Sheridan's response is that Bester is a horrible, awful, garbage person, but even he doesn't deserve to lose someone he loves.
I'm glad that JMS got Koenig in as Bester instead as Knight One/Two (I forget which one JMS originally was thinking of having him play).
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I have reached the end of Babylon 5. I am sad it's over.
I'd like to watch In the Beginning again (I remember watching it like 20 years ago and remember liking it a lot), but besides that, Babylon 5 seems to be done in terms of what else I can easily watch. Season one was....honestly, I think it was pretty bad, but the consistency / callbacks of the story and characters throughout the five seasons was fantastic. Definitely helps to have the same guy write almost all the episodes (JMS must've been exhausted).
There was a lot of foretelling of the future in the show and I was trying to think if any of it actually managed to change the future? Londo obviously fails. Sheridan is told not to go to Za'Ha'Dum by future Delenn, but then he goes anyways....
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
In the Beginning is a good watch. All the spoilers ever in it, in case anyone who hasn't seen the first four seasons is thinking of taking a look at it, but it's got a lot of good Londo in it.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I have reached the end of Babylon 5. I am sad it's over.
I'd like to watch In the Beginning again (I remember watching it like 20 years ago and remember liking it a lot), but besides that, Babylon 5 seems to be done in terms of what else I can easily watch. Season one was....honestly, I think it was pretty bad, but the consistency / callbacks of the story and characters throughout the five seasons was fantastic. Definitely helps to have the same guy write almost all the episodes (JMS must've been exhausted).
There was a lot of foretelling of the future in the show and I was trying to think if any of it actually managed to change the future? Londo obviously fails. Sheridan is told not to go to Za'Ha'Dum by future Delenn, but then he goes anyways....
Does Londo fail? The warning he gets from the Emperor's wife is that Lando will have three chances to turn away from the dark future he fears. We see Lando fail two of them, but we definitely see him succeed his third test by dying the way he does. And S5 shows us his successor, who is probably the most perfect individual for preserving what matters about Centauri society while moving it past the things that make it terrible.
Londo could've done better... but in the end he does make the hard choice and the Empire would seem to get the best possible Emperor next.
I do love how well they managed to have events foretold even back to season one pay off, but the context as to why those events happen changes based on how the characters themselves changed.
In season one, no doubt G’Kar and Londo would strangle each other to death, that hate each other. By season five they’re close friends, but due to the broader context we learn why G’Kar was willing to throttle Londo, and why Londo would let him.
Does Londo fail? The warning he gets from the Emperor's wife is that Lando will have three chances to turn away from the dark future he fears. We see Lando fail two of them, but we definitely see him succeed his third test by dying the way he does. And S5 shows us his successor, who is probably the most perfect individual for preserving what matters about Centauri society while moving it past the things that make it terrible.
Londo could've done better... but in the end he does make the hard choice and the Empire would seem to get the best possible Emperor next.
I guess it depends. With what I saw, I interpreted it as Londo avoiding
the destruction seen in the flash forward from his and Sheridan's vision on Centauri Prime and avoiding getting taken over and throttled by G'Kar. He didn't seem to do that so, imo, he failed. Like when he got the three warnings to avoid the future, this is AFTER he saw those visions / dreamed them of how he would end and he was trying to avoid it.
He didn't.
So, I thought he did fail, but I very easily could've misinterpreted.
I do love how well they managed to have events foretold even back to season one pay off, but the context as to why those events happen changes based on how the characters themselves changed.
I felt they G'kar's face turn involving Londo came too quickly, but I forgive it considering how hilarious it was with how other Narn treated him due to the book.
It was a bit foreboding, though, considering how much hatred he had in the beginning of the book towards the Centauri.
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I felt they G'kar's face turn involving Londo came too quickly, but I forgive it considering how hilarious it was with how other Narn treated him due to the book.
It was a bit foreboding, though, considering how much hatred he had in the beginning of the book towards the Centauri.
It didn't seem that odd for me. Epiphanies can hit people in weird and sudden ways, even when they don't involve
a combination of drugs and a Vorlon updating your personal BIOS.
Also it eventually led to the "what is God?" scene, which I love so much I'll forgive a lot for it.
Yeah, I just don't remember seeing a clear "A-HA" scene where he changes his opinion. Reluctant Prophet G'Kar was awesome, though, so I was fine with it and just mentally attributed it to realizing his working with Londo / submitting to the torture is what helped actually free the Narn.
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I have reached the end of Babylon 5. I am sad it's over.
I'd like to watch In the Beginning again (I remember watching it like 20 years ago and remember liking it a lot), but besides that, Babylon 5 seems to be done in terms of what else I can easily watch. Season one was....honestly, I think it was pretty bad, but the consistency / callbacks of the story and characters throughout the five seasons was fantastic. Definitely helps to have the same guy write almost all the episodes (JMS must've been exhausted).
There was a lot of foretelling of the future in the show and I was trying to think if any of it actually managed to change the future? Londo obviously fails. Sheridan is told not to go to Za'Ha'Dum by future Delenn, but then he goes anyways....
Does Londo fail? The warning he gets from the Emperor's wife is that Lando will have three chances to turn away from the dark future he fears. We see Lando fail two of them, but we definitely see him succeed his third test by dying the way he does. And S5 shows us his successor, who is probably the most perfect individual for preserving what matters about Centauri society while moving it past the things that make it terrible.
Londo could've done better... but in the end he does make the hard choice and the Empire would seem to get the best possible Emperor next.
Yeah, after thinking about it further, I'm definitely in the Londo failed camp.
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WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
In an alternate timeline-
Babylon 5: Zocolo Nights
Emperor Vir Coto faces the toughest hurdle yet of his fledgling reign. In order to rid Centauri Prime of dark influences, can Vir finally make it past two?
Yeah, I just don't remember seeing a clear "A-HA" scene where he changes his opinion.
He seems to be starting to figure it out in the trial right after getting Koshed, but remember he was also stuck in a cell with his thoughts for I think five weeks after that; we only see him once in that time during which he says he's started to figure some stuff out. That's plenty of time to change one's mind on things, especially when, as he said, you don't have many distractions.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
While that moment was noble, it was also irrelevant. The Vorlons left due to the battle intensifying / them calling all their ships in when their other Planet Killer was destroyed.
Basically, the reason I think he failed was that all his / all of the visions that showed the future, up to and including how he died and Vir taking the throne afterwards, happened. He isn't even able to stop himself from giving the gift to Sheridan and Delenn of the ancient Centauri urn that had the Keeper sleeping in the bottom of it intended for Sheridan's son.
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While that moment was noble, it was also irrelevant. The Vorlons left due to the battle intensifying / them calling all their ships in when their other Planet Killer was destroyed.
Basically, the reason I think he failed was that all his / all of the visions that showed the future, up to and including how he died and Vir taking the throne afterwards, happened. He isn't even able to stop himself from giving the gift to Sheridan and Delenn of the ancient Centauri urn that had the Keeper sleeping in the bottom of it intended for Sheridan's son.
How do you know that future was the one he was supposed to avoid though?
The show's ancient, unsure if we should even spoiler this, but..
It's the one he had visions of that freaked him out in the first place and had him start questioning things. It's what began his worrying of the future and it's what he saw way back in season one as to how he ends (the whole all Centauri know how they die bit). Additionally, the final bits you get of Londo are him despondent on his throne and Delenn seeing nothing but darkness around him.
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I just saw Passing through Gethsemane which I had somehow missed. That's probably the sweetest and most moving Sci-Fi episode with religion as its topic that I've ever seen.
Science fiction writers tend to be just plan bad, with a few exceptions, of dealing with religious characters that aren't just tropes. Everything from the head Monk's teasing of Sheridan's agnosticism "pick a lane man!", to Brad Dourif's excited theology conversations with Delen, and the tortured realization that his life up to that point has been a shell, and what he decides to next is just... wonderful. Religious people in B5 are characters in a setting, rather than window dressing.
Yeah, after thinking about it further, I'm definitely in the Londo failed camp.
If Londo failed, which I like to think wasn't the case, then the third opportunity was when
The Vorlon fleet was in orbit and he asked Vir to shoot him? I'm not sure what other big moments were available at that point.
The "big moments" were straight-up foretold by the Emperor's wife, and he definitely clears the third one.
Lando's surrenders himself to being killed by a Narn, the people who are his worst fear for the bulk of his life. He puts aside being the Emperor and risks the wrath of the Shadow allies to allow G'Kar to kill him, in order to save Delenn and Sheridan so they can save the Centauri in turn.
He fails the other prophecies, but the third one is both his death-dream (which apparently all Centauri have) and the means by which the Shadow allies are cast off and Veer becomes the Emperor of a new, better Centauri Empire.
So he definitely "wins" in the end, though he doesn't live to see it. Centauri is saved from being destroyed and has a future; it's not the "return to glory" he used to dream of, but it is a better future of the kind he comes to see as the right direction anyway.
Yeah, after thinking about it further, I'm definitely in the Londo failed camp.
If Londo failed, which I like to think wasn't the case, then the third opportunity was when
The Vorlon fleet was in orbit and he asked Vir to shoot him? I'm not sure what other big moments were available at that point.
The "big moments" were straight-up foretold by the Emperor's wife, and he definitely clears the third one.
Lando's surrenders himself to being killed by a Narn, the people who are his worst fear for the bulk of his life. He puts aside being the Emperor and risks the wrath of the Shadow allies to allow G'Kar to kill him, in order to save Delenn and Sheridan so they can save the Centauri in turn.
He fails the other prophecies, but the third one is both his death-dream (which apparently all Centauri have) and the means by which the Shadow allies are cast off and Veer becomes the Emperor of a new, better Centauri Empire.
So he definitely "wins" in the end, though he doesn't live to see it. Centauri is saved from being destroyed and has a future; it's not the "return to glory" he used to dream of, but it is a better future of the kind he comes to see as the right direction anyway.
They got better but iirc
the Narn and the Centauri never transcend to become energy beings, the civilizations eventually just die out. But that's also some outside the show stuff from JMS.
For anyone that's new to the show (ot unaware of the resource), the Lurkers Guide to B5 is the most comprehensive resource on the subject. Has the majority of JMS' Usenet posts on a episode by episode basis.
I was reading through some old entries in my personal journal, and one of them linked to the Lurker's Guide entry for 3x06, "Point of No Return", original airdate February 26, 1996. (This is the one with Majel, where she gives Londo the warning about his chances past and future that we've been discussing.) By 2007, enough had happened to put his words in new context; another fifteen years have made them even more prophetic, and frightening.
Read it here, especially the part that starts with "Aren't those Nightwatch posters a bit too much? Wouldn't people object?"
(And now we have actual evidence that the answer is "no, not really." It helps if you call it something like "Homeland Security" instead...)
I was reading through some old entries in my personal journal, and one of them linked to the Lurker's Guide entry for 3x06, "Point of No Return", original airdate February 26, 1996. (This is the one with Majel, where she gives Londo the warning about his chances past and future that we've been discussing.) By 2007, enough had happened to put his words in new context; another fifteen years have made them even more prophetic, and frightening.
Read it here, especially the part that starts with "Aren't those Nightwatch posters a bit too much? Wouldn't people object?"
(And now we have actual evidence that the answer is "no, not really." It helps if you call it something like "Homeland Security" instead...)
Kind of scary / annoying / lowers my hopes for humanity.
"Zack is the key figure here. He's the one questioning if he's on the right side and just what his allies are up to. I've heard some good analogies to present days situations kicked around on these boards, but It seems mostly Republicans want to accuse democrats and vice versa. What we need is more Republicans willing to criticise fellow republicans and democrats willing to criticise fellow democrats."
A very good point. Zack is, to all intents and purposes, the Everyman character in this; he wants, desperately, to do what's right. But he doesn't exactly *know* what's right, because he's getting conflicting information...or rather, a lack of *real* information and a plethora of agendas. Who is he to believe? Which way does he jump when he's not sure which pit holds the lion?
When a culture become factionalized, when it becomes us vs. them, everyone starts setting up consistently smaller camps...first it's democrats vs. republicans...then it's mainstream republicans vs. conservative republicans...then it's conservative republicans vs. religious right republicans (with the democrats having equal problems on their side). As soon as we forget that we're *all* US, it begins to fall apart.
From the late 90s because of course.
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Babylon 5 had my dad's undivided attention and he wants us to watch 2-3 episodes a week if I can find the time so yea new convert.
Third show as Lucifer and dad loved the smarmy doucheness of the title character, whilst my.70 year old mother was having reactions to Tom Ellis similar to Dr. Martin in the first few episodes. So that show is now an agenda item to join the parents in watching it.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Hate to break it to you, but I think your parents are nerds.
Awesome.
I don't think the Omega class destroyers appeared on the show; those were "advanced" ships that never got a proper class name on screen, IIRC. After the Omega class got mentioned, people online kept begging JMS to show one in S5 or in Crusade. I think maybe he said you could see one for a few frames in A Call to Arms, something like that.
Maybe in later years he's gone back on that and said that the Shadow tech ships were the Omegas, but he definitely drew a line between the two concepts in 1998.
My dad had been working with computers and building automation.systems since the 1970's, so I knew he was a huge geek, discovering mom had such tendencies was the surprising part.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
I had thought the origin of the tech,
Doing damage to stuff in space isn't hard with the velocities and potential energy of kinetic or energy weapons...but hitting an advanced enemy at all through their EM interference is the real trick.
One of the "flaws" of filmed sci-fi battles, is that the ships are often so close they're scraping paint off each other. Which makes the whole targetting thing just look dumb. If they're that close, optical sighting with a dedicated firing circuit, and you'll miss often, but you'll at least hit occasionally, regardless of the EW.
I mean, I get why they do it, but it does make some things just weird.
I miss Ivanova.
One nice thing about the show is the attention to detail / callbacks to prior shows, even if just regarding how characters act. I'm not sure if I'm sold on G'Kar's face turn to being friends with Mollari, but they're excellent together so I'll allow it.
The show does a much better job of reminding you Bester is not a good guy / you shouldn't like him whenever you get even close to sympathizing with him than DS9 did with Dukat.
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I liked that B5 tried to address that now and then. That one battle between the Narns and the Shadows near the end of the Centauri war had visual cues dropped all over the place suggesting the fleets probably never got within a half a light-second of each other.
Bester may not, but Walter Koenig is.
About 15 years ago, I was at GenCon, and Koenig was one of the stars making an appearance. And prior to opening up the area for access for autographs and photos, he was at the table, talking with one of his handlers. Every couple of minute, he would put the fingers of his right hand to his temple, and then just look at someone in the crowd. Maintain eye contact for a couple seconds, giving the full Bester, before breaking out into this adorable old man grin. Then he'd go back to talking with his handler, before repeating it again and again.
It was shocking how small and frail he looked, though. But he definitely seemed to be enjoying himself.
Based on my observing and meeting him at cons over the last 20 years, I don't think he's ever not enjoying himself, which is a very rare thing.
While I love him as Bester, for me the best Walter Koenig moment is still:
"Chekov, Pavel...rank...ADMIRAL!"
~ Buckaroo Banzai
"No... you were younger."
Thing about Bester is that he only shows up when he wants or needs something from B5, and there's only one or two instances where what he want's isn't, at best, morally dubious. Plus he made it very clear early on that he's a telepath-supremacist, no beating around the bush, just straight up saying that telepaths are superior and normies are totally expendable. Dukat OTOH shows up sort of randomly and while he's a dick, doesn't have that same constant line of horribleness. Sometimes he shows up to see his daughter, can't really hate him for that, and other times the DS9 crew call him up for a favor and he'll help out (and sometimes screw them over at the end).
I don't think that sympathetic villain is the best phrase to use for either character, sympathy is a loaded word. Relatable is probably better, but the difference between the way the two characters are presented is that Bester is always portrayed as a villain, his ultimate goals are in conflict with those of the B5 crew, and nearly every appearance makes that very clear. Dukat though, a lot of his appearances drop the villain bit or have a main plot that somehow manages to overshadow his villainy. The
Best Bester bit:
I'm glad that JMS got Koenig in as Bester instead as Knight One/Two (I forget which one JMS originally was thinking of having him play).
I'd like to watch In the Beginning again (I remember watching it like 20 years ago and remember liking it a lot), but besides that, Babylon 5 seems to be done in terms of what else I can easily watch. Season one was....honestly, I think it was pretty bad, but the consistency / callbacks of the story and characters throughout the five seasons was fantastic. Definitely helps to have the same guy write almost all the episodes (JMS must've been exhausted).
There was a lot of foretelling of the future in the show and I was trying to think if any of it actually managed to change the future? Londo obviously fails. Sheridan is told not to go to Za'Ha'Dum by future Delenn, but then he goes anyways....
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Does Londo fail? The warning he gets from the Emperor's wife is that Lando will have three chances to turn away from the dark future he fears. We see Lando fail two of them, but we definitely see him succeed his third test by dying the way he does. And S5 shows us his successor, who is probably the most perfect individual for preserving what matters about Centauri society while moving it past the things that make it terrible.
Londo could've done better... but in the end he does make the hard choice and the Empire would seem to get the best possible Emperor next.
I guess it depends. With what I saw, I interpreted it as Londo avoiding
He didn't.
So, I thought he did fail, but I very easily could've misinterpreted.
It was a bit foreboding, though, considering how much hatred he had in the beginning of the book towards the Centauri.
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It didn't seem that odd for me. Epiphanies can hit people in weird and sudden ways, even when they don't involve
Also it eventually led to the "what is God?" scene, which I love so much I'll forgive a lot for it.
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No. Doubt.
Anyone who has seen the show should know what's in the spoilers.
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He seems to be starting to figure it out in the trial right after getting Koshed, but remember he was also stuck in a cell with his thoughts for I think five weeks after that; we only see him once in that time during which he says he's started to figure some stuff out. That's plenty of time to change one's mind on things, especially when, as he said, you don't have many distractions.
If Londo failed, which I like to think wasn't the case, then the third opportunity was when
Basically, the reason I think he failed was that all his / all of the visions that showed the future, up to and including how he died and Vir taking the throne afterwards, happened. He isn't even able to stop himself from giving the gift to Sheridan and Delenn of the ancient Centauri urn that had the Keeper sleeping in the bottom of it intended for Sheridan's son.
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How do you know that future was the one he was supposed to avoid though?
It's the one he had visions of that freaked him out in the first place and had him start questioning things. It's what began his worrying of the future and it's what he saw way back in season one as to how he ends (the whole all Centauri know how they die bit). Additionally, the final bits you get of Londo are him despondent on his throne and Delenn seeing nothing but darkness around him.
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Science fiction writers tend to be just plan bad, with a few exceptions, of dealing with religious characters that aren't just tropes. Everything from the head Monk's teasing of Sheridan's agnosticism "pick a lane man!", to Brad Dourif's excited theology conversations with Delen, and the tortured realization that his life up to that point has been a shell, and what he decides to next is just... wonderful. Religious people in B5 are characters in a setting, rather than window dressing.
The "big moments" were straight-up foretold by the Emperor's wife, and he definitely clears the third one.
He fails the other prophecies, but the third one is both his death-dream (which apparently all Centauri have) and the means by which the Shadow allies are cast off and Veer becomes the Emperor of a new, better Centauri Empire.
So he definitely "wins" in the end, though he doesn't live to see it. Centauri is saved from being destroyed and has a future; it's not the "return to glory" he used to dream of, but it is a better future of the kind he comes to see as the right direction anyway.
You *claim* to be a B5 fan.
Peter Jurasik is amazing though.
They got better but iirc
For anyone that's new to the show (ot unaware of the resource), the Lurkers Guide to B5 is the most comprehensive resource on the subject. Has the majority of JMS' Usenet posts on a episode by episode basis.
ah yes, the guy from that handshake meme in predator
"Lando! You son of a bitch!"
Read it here, especially the part that starts with "Aren't those Nightwatch posters a bit too much? Wouldn't people object?"
(And now we have actual evidence that the answer is "no, not really." It helps if you call it something like "Homeland Security" instead...)
Kind of scary / annoying / lowers my hopes for humanity.
Referencing the episode and the posters-
From the late 90s because of course.
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