The backtracking thing is rather a bother, yes. I'd kill for the ability to leave notes on the map, Etrian style, and I think the sheer amount of useless backtracking you can end up doing is the weak point of the game.
But the upgrades thing doesn't bother me. Hollow Knight is metroidvania crossed with Dark Souls, and it certainly nails the feel of "oh shit where is a bonfire someone help" you get when you're new and wandering around an area you don't know and your Geo count is all sorts of up and you don't want to lose everything but where the hell is a rest stop/warp point for the love of god. You're not Samus Aran, Destroyer of Worlds - you're just a dude with a sword, theoretically hopelessly outclassed.
The problem with that approach here is that the game is pretty huge (which I like) but my combat tools are incredibly limited (which I really really hate). Almost every challenging fight is built around the enemy having 2-3 times your reach in melee range, being enormous compared to you, and having very limited times when you can actually reach them for a hit. My constant gripe is that I just want enemies to move the fuck over where I can hit them, because my reach is about a foot and a half and I have no dash attack.
If the sword reach was something like double the crappy distance it currently goes, I could probably decently enjoy the combat. But at this point, I'm really sick and tired of having to get almost point-blank to everything to take a swing at it.
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H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
edited March 2017
I haven't played Hollow Knight, and I'm still looking forward to trying it out, but I'll back @Ninja Snarl P on the point that combat needs variety as you progress. Even in Dark Souls there's a bunch of different weapons which have distinct patterns and flow to them, plus magic as a completely alternative system. Samus has a number of different beam types, and missiles, and sometimes Screw Attack as different ways of handling enemies, and some of the bosses get pretty creative with how you need to use your abilities to beat them. Castlevania Symphony of the Night has an almost ridiculous over-abundance of different weapons, weapon special attacks (alucard sword's teleport-strike, osafune katana's rainbow flurry, fist of tulkas' hadoken, sword of dawn's skeleton summons, all of the shield rod + shield combinations, to name a few), consumable attack items (such as shuriken, pentagram, or power of sire), spells (soul steal, summon spirit, tetra spirit, sword brothers, Dracula's fireball teleport & lightning ball teleport), familiars (bat, imp, phantom, & sword all have attacks), transformation attacks (wolf form's bite & charge, bat form's fireball, soundwave, & charge, or poisonous mist form), and the expanded roster of the classic Castlevania sub-weapons (dagger, axe, cross, holy water, stopwatch, diamond, ashes, bible, lightning thingy), even the sub-weapons have special attacks when playing as Richter (Alucard can't do these, since I know cross' special replaces its traditional boomerang-like behavior for him). Experimenting with the different tools available to you is a big part of what keeps it fun as you progress. Even Cave Story has like 9 or 10 different weapons (Pole Star, Machine Gun, Spur, Nemesis, Arthur's Sword, Bubbler, Fireball, Snake, Rocket Launcher, Swarm Rocket Launcher), plus the Whimsical Star item's effect.
Long games like this really ought to give you a bunch of different ways to attack enemies, with differing enemies forcing you to use differing abilities. Bonus points if you can find a way to have Zelda-style puzzle bosses that make you use your non-combat abilities (like having to use a grappling hook to pull off armor).
At the very least if they're going to make it melee based, with the average enemy having superior reach, they should give you some abilities like forward & reverse dash moves, or an invincibility-frames tuck-roll-past-the-enemy (ala Street Fighter), or a shield you have to manually control by holding a button to use (maybe even manually adjusting the height/angle like in Zelda II & C:SotN)... some kind of dynamic, interactive defensive measure that still requires you to pay attention, have decent timing, and learn the enemy's patterns.
Between the melee range and the map system, this game hits some kind of sweet spot for me. It has the Dark Souls risk/reward of pushing into the unknown. I can't say for sure how much backtracking there is, because this is a genre where I relish being lost on the first playthrough, so I've been circling the map for hours not even knowing if I'm in the right zone aside from the Elder's hints.
I do wish there was the equivalent of a homeward bone though - I don't like having to hunt down a save spot when I'm done playing.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited March 2017
Ugh, think I've just plain reached my limit on Hollow Knight. After like four hours of searching, I found a way to go and do one of the big objectives of the game. I kill who I need to kill, and then basically nothing happens. No new upgrade, no extra directions, no nothing besides a massive letdown after all that effort. Supposed to be this big deal and the player gets zero reward of any kind; not even so much as chunk of life container or some money. Basically a perfect case of how not to design a difficult-to-reach objective in a game; it was such a disappointment that I don't even want to move on to the next one.
And there's two more of these things I have to go get, with no indication of how to actually reach them. At this point, the only way I'd make progress without more pointless scouring of places I've already been is to look things up on the internet. Which is a fatal design flaw in any modern Metroidvania game as far as I'm concerned; there's simply no excuse for the game world to not give some reasonable guidance as to where to go, and that's a severe shortcoming on the part of the developers. Super Metroid is almost 25 years old at this point, and did a hell of a better job with map exploration; I couldn't give a shit about these characters around the map that do nothing but talk, but those are what get markers instead of things like locked doors or important blocked pathways.
Better than a dozen hours in the game at this point and I'm just gonna pack it in and uninstall. The combat got boring and repetitive several hours ago, and it takes so long to find the next story bit I don't even care anymore. There's a hell of a difference between "exploration" and "revisit each area five times because the game map lacks basic information, when they bother to let you have a map". I wish they'd put half as much effort into the gameplay and map design as they did the visuals and sound, because this could've been a really great Metroidvania game instead of a really tedious one that looks awesome.
Ninja Snarl P on
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
I think yall could make a Hollow Knight thread. I'm not sure who is going to think to go into the Metroid thread to talk about a totally different game.
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38thDoelets never be stupid againwait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered Userregular
Maybe we should rebrand the thread to metroidvania games, since even when Metroid games come out they aren't Metroidvanias.
I think yall could make a Hollow Knight thread. I'm not sure who is going to think to go into the Metroid thread to talk about a totally different game.
Man though, those sales numbers are suuuuuper depressing. I didn't realize Prime 3 was such a sales failure (on the Wii of all systems). No wonder Nintendo doesn't know WTF to do with the franchise. There is some interesting speculation on Prime 4 at the end there though too. And I like his general point about Fire Emblem: Awakening - how the franchise was nearly dead before that game reinvigorated it completely. I do hope we'll see something like that for Metroid
Metroid has always been a niche franchise unfortunately. Not surprising that even on the Wii it was a low seller.
The interesting thing the video pointed out though is that Prime 1 sold like twice as many copies on the *Gamecube* which is just bizarre to me. I would at least expect the Wii one to match that number due to higher install base. But I dunno, Prime 2 was kind of meh so maybe people peace'd out on Prime 3 (which was actually really good).
Metroid has always been a niche franchise unfortunately. Not surprising that even on the Wii it was a low seller.
The interesting thing the video pointed out though is that Prime 1 sold like twice as many copies on the *Gamecube* which is just bizarre to me. I would at least expect the Wii one to match that number due to higher install base. But I dunno, Prime 2 was kind of meh so maybe people peace'd out on Prime 3 (which was actually really good).
Eh, probably just lots of people like me. I'm an old-school Nintendo fan, and the only Nintendo console I've skipped out on (excluding handhelds) is the Wii, because that system was marketed primarily to people who weren't me. I didn't want to deal with the waggle. So, Prime 3 is the only mainline Metroid game I haven't played.
Some day I might grab it on my WiiU, but I worry about how old it'll feel now. Will I still be able to enjoy it, or will it have aged poorly? Prime 1 was beautiful when it first came out, and that was a lot of the appeal. Also if I have to use the detestable motion controls on the tablet, it's probably right out. I don't enjoy that one bit.
Fleur de Alys on
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
I have the prime trilogy on my WIIU but like many of the VC games on it I would like it to come to the switch
I never really played any of them until the WIIU
I had to use the WII chucks to play them though as I went out and got a new one when they were being closed out
Metroid has always been a niche franchise unfortunately. Not surprising that even on the Wii it was a low seller.
The interesting thing the video pointed out though is that Prime 1 sold like twice as many copies on the *Gamecube* which is just bizarre to me. I would at least expect the Wii one to match that number due to higher install base. But I dunno, Prime 2 was kind of meh so maybe people peace'd out on Prime 3 (which was actually really good).
Eh, probably just lots of people like me. I'm an old-school Nintendo fan, and the only Nintendo console I've skipped out on (excluding handhelds) is the Wii, because that system was marketed primarily to people who weren't me. I didn't want to deal with the waggle. So, Prime 3 is the only mainline Metroid game I haven't played.
Some day I might grab it on my WiiU, but I worry about how old it'll feel now. Will I still be able to enjoy it, or will it have aged poorly? Prime 1 was beautiful when it first came out, and that was a lot of the appeal. Also if I have to use the detestable motion controls on the tablet, it's probably right out. I don't enjoy that one bit.
I've only played Prime 1, and it still looks good. The resolution is the only thing really holding it back.
Prime 3 requires a Wiimote; I don't think it supports the tablet at all. Aside from point-to-aim, I want to say I read that it uses gestures for things like yanking shields off enemies.
I recently replayed the MP trilogy on the WiiU. I liked aiming with the wiimote, but it's understandably not for everyone. The graphics hold up though.
飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
MP3 is built with a Wiimote in mind, sure, but I'm pretty certain everything for it could be redone for standard dual analog controls pretty easily. The Wiimote-aiming puzzles could be modified to handle dual analog without much trouble, and even the gesture-based stuff would be pretty easy to just map to an "action" button instead of having to whip a controller around.
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SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
I've still never made it through Metroid Prime 2. I don't know what it is about that one. I loved the first game. The third one was perfectly fine, but it lacked something the first game had. I've restarted Prime 2 three times so far, but I always get distracted and feel the need to restart by the time I get back to it.
Prime 2 is good but the whole conceit of the dark world having hazardous environment everywhere runs counter to the traditional metroid thing of having a lot of exploration. It's not like a varia suit lower norfair thing because you're expected to go through it, just from safe zone to safe zone.
The worst part of echos are the puzzles that require you to hop between dimensions, because there's a longass loading animation each time. There's one where you have to go through like 4 portals to get in and out of, just to grab a collectible.
Also the dimensional stuff making it difficult to get from point a to b sometimes. Even after you have all the powers.
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
Biggest problem with Prime 2 for me was how samey most of the environments look. Especially in the dark world. That combined with a complicated map meant I got lost nonstop.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
The worst part of echos are the puzzles that require you to hop between dimensions, because there's a longass loading animation each time. There's one where you have to go through like 4 portals to get in and out of, just to grab a collectible.
Also the dimensional stuff making it difficult to get from point a to b sometimes. Even after you have all the powers.
Trying to map a path in MP2 was frequently hellish. Assloads of deadends and unintuitive routes, so even if you pulled up the map and spent time flipping between the light and dark worlds, you could get mixed up really easily and have to re-re-backtrack to get anywhere. And the game soon reached a point where you had to repeatedly portal hop to get anywhere, which got old very fast.
MP2 did, at least, have something of a central hub to get between the major areas rapidly. But I'd still take MP1's far more natural-feeling and believable map design which was easier to navigate, than the perhaps faster but often-frustrating navigation of MP2.
Food for thought: How would you guys feel if at E3 Nintendo were to announce an HD port of Metroid Prime, or possibly Metroid Prime Trilogy, for the Switch?
Ideally it would give you the choice between GameCube and Wii-styled controls (I am personally not comfortable with aiming in FPSes at all, but I liked using the Wii Remote to -- light gun-styled games are much more my jam).
Mind that this wouldn't necessarily preclude Nintendo from announcing something else with Metroid; they've had multiple balls in the air for one franchise before, so it wouldn't have to be either/or. But odds are this would be what came first as they worked on whatever else.
Like Mega Man Legends? Then check out my story, Legends of the Halcyon Era - An Adventure in the World of Mega Man Legends on TMMN and AO3!
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
Biggest problem with Prime 2 for me was how samey most of the environments look. Especially in the dark world. That combined with a complicated map meant I got lost nonstop.
This I think was the biggest thing I didn't like about Prime 2. Everything was pretty dull and boring. Lots of browns and grays. And then yeah, the dark world just adds an extra layer of desaturation to all of it.
Food for thought: How would you guys feel if at E3 Nintendo were to announce an HD port of Metroid Prime, or possibly Metroid Prime Trilogy, for the Switch?
Ideally it would give you the choice between GameCube and Wii-styled controls (I am personally not comfortable with aiming in FPSes at all, but I liked using the Wii Remote to -- light gun-styled games are much more my jam).
Mind that this wouldn't necessarily preclude Nintendo from announcing something else with Metroid; they've had multiple balls in the air for one franchise before, so it wouldn't have to be either/or. But odds are this would be what came first as they worked on whatever else.
Without an announcement of anything else new for Metroid, I would be mad. If it's like, "Hey, we are making Prime 4 and also there is this HD port" then that's fine.
Forever Zefirocloaked in the midnight glory of an event horizonRegistered Userregular
edited May 2017
I'd be sad if they don't announce anything Metroid, but I'm also not sure if they're competent enough to doing something worthwhile with Metroid at this point. If they did announce something it'd probably be Metroid: Federation Pinball Puzzle Jam
We're probably better off playing Axiom Verge, Hollow Knight, etc, and remembering how good Metroid used to be
Forever Zefiro on
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38thDoelets never be stupid againwait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered Userregular
They could probably get some sales from porting all the old Metroid games to steam. Otherwise I'd probably not rebuy the prime games just because they were in HD.
I'd be sad if they don't announce anything Metroid, but I'm also not sure if they're competent enough to doing something worthwhile with Metroid at this point. If they did announce something it'd probably be Metroid: Federation Pinball Puzzle Jam
We're probably better off playing Axiom Verge, Hollow Knight, etc, and remembering how good Metroid used to be
I think Retro is. They are the only studio I trust at the moment with the franchise (not that someone else could not also do a good job, but Retro has a good track record already).
I still want to see Retro do a 2D Metroid. They've proven they can do Metroid with Prime and that they can do 2D stuff with DKC Returns. I think it could be amazing.
I'd buy a Metroid Prime HD remake in a heartbeat. It's easily one of my top 5 favorite games of all time and it would look beautiful remade in HD. But I'd be angry if that's all Nintendo saw fit to give us. They need to cut the bullshit already - I don't buy the theory that they don't know what to do with Metroid. There's plenty of people screaming at them what they should do. They still know how to make good games or there's plenty of devs who could make a great game for them. I'd rather they try and fail instead of doing what they're doing right now.
I'd buy a Metroid Prime HD remake in a heartbeat. It's easily one of my top 5 favorite games of all time and it would look beautiful remade in HD. But I'd be angry if that's all Nintendo saw fit to give us. They need to cut the bullshit already - I don't buy the theory that they don't know what to do with Metroid. There's plenty of people screaming at them what they should do. They still know how to make good games or there's plenty of devs who could make a great game for them. I'd rather they try and fail instead of doing what they're doing right now.
Honestly it really depends on if they understand why recent games were not selling. I think the problem lately with Metroid has been a series of blunders with nothing "good" in between to smooth them out.
Other M *should* have been good but I feel like Nintendo stepped too far out of their comfort zone and things ballooned on them. I think Extra Credits has a really good video on it that suggests what might have happened there and I agree with it (cliffs notes: Sakamoto wrote a barebones story but Team Ninja needed it expanded for all their cutscenes and such and Sakamoto was not up to the task)
Federation Force I really feel is a case of troubled development. The thing was supposed to come out on the freaking DS and you can tell. I think that explains the dumb chibi art style (a relic from inferior hardware that never got dropped) and obviously the game had massive problems if it was delayed all the way LATE into the 3DS's life. Maybe at the time it was meant to launch alongside Prime 3 so the change of protagonists would not have felt so terrible.
I've also heard of a few other attempts by various studios to tackle the franchise that went nowhere (some of which looked bad anyways).
So to me, it's been a series of mistakes in a row and I think that's left Nintendo flustered on where to go. But we'll see
Federation Force was originally intended for the DSi, so was probably envisioned as a 2009-2011 game from the outset, and just got tabled for half a decade until development restarted (or even just started) in 2014, but with the same vision of long before.
Thread title updated. Speaking of Metroidvanias, check out Sundered:
https://youtu.be/KXZ2hIm_rOM
That animation is pretty damn great! It's billed as a Lovecraft-inspired "replayable Metroidvania." The dev also made Jotun, which I have never heard of.
Posts
So good.
The problem with that approach here is that the game is pretty huge (which I like) but my combat tools are incredibly limited (which I really really hate). Almost every challenging fight is built around the enemy having 2-3 times your reach in melee range, being enormous compared to you, and having very limited times when you can actually reach them for a hit. My constant gripe is that I just want enemies to move the fuck over where I can hit them, because my reach is about a foot and a half and I have no dash attack.
If the sword reach was something like double the crappy distance it currently goes, I could probably decently enjoy the combat. But at this point, I'm really sick and tired of having to get almost point-blank to everything to take a swing at it.
Long games like this really ought to give you a bunch of different ways to attack enemies, with differing enemies forcing you to use differing abilities. Bonus points if you can find a way to have Zelda-style puzzle bosses that make you use your non-combat abilities (like having to use a grappling hook to pull off armor).
At the very least if they're going to make it melee based, with the average enemy having superior reach, they should give you some abilities like forward & reverse dash moves, or an invincibility-frames tuck-roll-past-the-enemy (ala Street Fighter), or a shield you have to manually control by holding a button to use (maybe even manually adjusting the height/angle like in Zelda II & C:SotN)... some kind of dynamic, interactive defensive measure that still requires you to pay attention, have decent timing, and learn the enemy's patterns.
I do wish there was the equivalent of a homeward bone though - I don't like having to hunt down a save spot when I'm done playing.
And there's two more of these things I have to go get, with no indication of how to actually reach them. At this point, the only way I'd make progress without more pointless scouring of places I've already been is to look things up on the internet. Which is a fatal design flaw in any modern Metroidvania game as far as I'm concerned; there's simply no excuse for the game world to not give some reasonable guidance as to where to go, and that's a severe shortcoming on the part of the developers. Super Metroid is almost 25 years old at this point, and did a hell of a better job with map exploration; I couldn't give a shit about these characters around the map that do nothing but talk, but those are what get markers instead of things like locked doors or important blocked pathways.
Better than a dozen hours in the game at this point and I'm just gonna pack it in and uninstall. The combat got boring and repetitive several hours ago, and it takes so long to find the next story bit I don't even care anymore. There's a hell of a difference between "exploration" and "revisit each area five times because the game map lacks basic information, when they bother to let you have a map". I wish they'd put half as much effort into the gameplay and map design as they did the visuals and sound, because this could've been a really great Metroidvania game instead of a really tedious one that looks awesome.
OOOOOH BUUUUURN wait that's awful to applaud that.
Done.
https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/210176/hollow-knight-the-metroid-of-dark-souls-of-something#latest
Preorders are open. Since it was like 7 months between preorder and receipt for ZSS, I think I'm just going to try to get this when it's released.
That's amazing and it's only $65, so it's very tempting.
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Man though, those sales numbers are suuuuuper depressing. I didn't realize Prime 3 was such a sales failure (on the Wii of all systems). No wonder Nintendo doesn't know WTF to do with the franchise. There is some interesting speculation on Prime 4 at the end there though too. And I like his general point about Fire Emblem: Awakening - how the franchise was nearly dead before that game reinvigorated it completely. I do hope we'll see something like that for Metroid
Switch (JeffConser): SW-3353-5433-5137 Wii U: Skeldare - 3DS: 1848-1663-9345
PM Me if you add me!
The interesting thing the video pointed out though is that Prime 1 sold like twice as many copies on the *Gamecube* which is just bizarre to me. I would at least expect the Wii one to match that number due to higher install base. But I dunno, Prime 2 was kind of meh so maybe people peace'd out on Prime 3 (which was actually really good).
That was a joke :P Also a good joke
Some day I might grab it on my WiiU, but I worry about how old it'll feel now. Will I still be able to enjoy it, or will it have aged poorly? Prime 1 was beautiful when it first came out, and that was a lot of the appeal. Also if I have to use the detestable motion controls on the tablet, it's probably right out. I don't enjoy that one bit.
I never really played any of them until the WIIU
I had to use the WII chucks to play them though as I went out and got a new one when they were being closed out
I've only played Prime 1, and it still looks good. The resolution is the only thing really holding it back.
Prime 3 requires a Wiimote; I don't think it supports the tablet at all. Aside from point-to-aim, I want to say I read that it uses gestures for things like yanking shields off enemies.
My Backloggery
In particular fuck the Boost Guardian.
Also the dimensional stuff making it difficult to get from point a to b sometimes. Even after you have all the powers.
Trying to map a path in MP2 was frequently hellish. Assloads of deadends and unintuitive routes, so even if you pulled up the map and spent time flipping between the light and dark worlds, you could get mixed up really easily and have to re-re-backtrack to get anywhere. And the game soon reached a point where you had to repeatedly portal hop to get anywhere, which got old very fast.
MP2 did, at least, have something of a central hub to get between the major areas rapidly. But I'd still take MP1's far more natural-feeling and believable map design which was easier to navigate, than the perhaps faster but often-frustrating navigation of MP2.
Ideally it would give you the choice between GameCube and Wii-styled controls (I am personally not comfortable with aiming in FPSes at all, but I liked using the Wii Remote to -- light gun-styled games are much more my jam).
Mind that this wouldn't necessarily preclude Nintendo from announcing something else with Metroid; they've had multiple balls in the air for one franchise before, so it wouldn't have to be either/or. But odds are this would be what came first as they worked on whatever else.
Like Mega Man Legends? Then check out my story, Legends of the Halcyon Era - An Adventure in the World of Mega Man Legends on TMMN and AO3!
This I think was the biggest thing I didn't like about Prime 2. Everything was pretty dull and boring. Lots of browns and grays. And then yeah, the dark world just adds an extra layer of desaturation to all of it.
Edit:
Without an announcement of anything else new for Metroid, I would be mad. If it's like, "Hey, we are making Prime 4 and also there is this HD port" then that's fine.
We're probably better off playing Axiom Verge, Hollow Knight, etc, and remembering how good Metroid used to be
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
I think Retro is. They are the only studio I trust at the moment with the franchise (not that someone else could not also do a good job, but Retro has a good track record already).
I still want to see Retro do a 2D Metroid. They've proven they can do Metroid with Prime and that they can do 2D stuff with DKC Returns. I think it could be amazing.
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
Not Metroid, probably
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Honestly it really depends on if they understand why recent games were not selling. I think the problem lately with Metroid has been a series of blunders with nothing "good" in between to smooth them out.
Other M *should* have been good but I feel like Nintendo stepped too far out of their comfort zone and things ballooned on them. I think Extra Credits has a really good video on it that suggests what might have happened there and I agree with it (cliffs notes: Sakamoto wrote a barebones story but Team Ninja needed it expanded for all their cutscenes and such and Sakamoto was not up to the task)
Federation Force I really feel is a case of troubled development. The thing was supposed to come out on the freaking DS and you can tell. I think that explains the dumb chibi art style (a relic from inferior hardware that never got dropped) and obviously the game had massive problems if it was delayed all the way LATE into the 3DS's life. Maybe at the time it was meant to launch alongside Prime 3 so the change of protagonists would not have felt so terrible.
I've also heard of a few other attempts by various studios to tackle the franchise that went nowhere (some of which looked bad anyways).
So to me, it's been a series of mistakes in a row and I think that's left Nintendo flustered on where to go. But we'll see
That animation is pretty damn great! It's billed as a Lovecraft-inspired "replayable Metroidvania." The dev also made Jotun, which I have never heard of.