[12 Monkeys] And Neunundneunzig Red Balloons

Big Dookie

Alright so I know that not every single TV show needs it's own thread, but this one seems more worthy than most. Three episodes in, it's actually turning out to be one of the better shows I'm watching right now.



First off, this isn't the same as the 1995 Terry Gilliam movie. The name is the same, as are the general concept and some of the characters, but otherwise it seems like they've been given liberty to do their own thing. So don't use the movie as a go-by, as things will likely turn out much differently here.

So who else is watching this, and what do you think so far? I for one have been really impressed with what they've done so far, all the stuff with them addressing the very paradoxes they've set up, and they're already paying off, has been super interesting so far, and the actors are killing it. I really hope this continues in quality the way it has so far.

Baron Of Hell

I'm liking the show but the third episode confused the heck out of me.

Big Dookie

Which part was unclear? Not asking that in a dickish way because I agree that the show can be a little confusing, just wondering what you got hung up on.

Zilla360

I'm liking it so far. That fight where he was splintering in and out was pretty cool.

Also I'm thinking:

That the creepy old flowers dude could be a time traveller as well, it was weird him just showing up in Haiti like that.

Big Dookie

Yeah, I definitely think he is. It's weird thinking about all the causality issues we see though. For example, the tall pale guy already having the scar on his face the first time Cole encountered him in 2015, but then Cole later actually giving him the scar later/earlier in 2014. How did he already have the scar if Cole had never met him?

I'm fascinated to see how they address this stuff.

AlphaRomero

There is some weird time stuff going on because some things do not happen until Cole actually makes them happen like scratching the future watch, and others where it's already happened, like scratching the old guy. That said it makes sense that older version of the Flower Guy has the scar because that version recognizes Cole while the younger one doesn't.

That said, my theory went out the window that the Flower Guy was Cole's friend from the future sent way back in time and aged up to the "present", since Haiti version didn't recognize him.

Big Dookie

Right, but if Cole hadn't yet actually gone back to 2014 to give him the scar, then how did flower guy already have it in 2015? Just like in the first episode when Goines said he'd met Cole back in 1987 or whatever it was, except that Cole had never gone back that early yet because they didn't have enough power to send him back that far. Goines even comments on how it's a paradox.

This makes me think that the writers are purposefully creating these problems with an answer already in mind. At least I hope so. Didn't they mention in the first episode also that Cole's bio-enhancements somehow made him resistant to paradoxes or something like that?

Thirith

How does it compare to the film? So far I've avoided it because the couple of reviews I saw sounded like they jettisoned many of the things I liked best about the movie, namely that it's not an action adventure about saving the world: there's a strong tragic, fatalistic streak in that mankind can't avoid the epidemic and Cole can't avoid his fate, so anything he does may be for the good of the future, but it sure as hell ain't his future. Also, I like how in the film so much of what Cole follows up on turns out to be red herrings. Is any of that similar in the series, or have they really turned it into more of a straight sci-fi time travel action yarn?

Big Dookie

It's actually been probably ten years since the last time I watched the original film, so there may be some things I'm not remembering correctly. That said, while they aren't as pronounced yet, I think some of those themes are definitely in the show too. Overall there are some differences, such as the fact that Cole's mission here is to actually go into the past and change the future to prevent the plague from ever happening. However, there's little evidence yet that anything he's done has actually changed anything, so I don't know if they really quite grasp the mechanics of time travel in the show yet, or even if we do as the audience.

Cole himself certainly is somewhat similar to his movie counterpart in terms of being fatalistic. He's hopeful he can save the future, but he knows it's a future he'll never see. He's also quite morally gray and willing to do very bad things if he thinks it will help his mission, even if in th end it's hard to say if anything he's doing is actually making a difference.

Overall though, try not to compare it to the film too much. It's definitely it's own thing and has already veered way off course from the original movie. In fact, I don't even think the original pitch was meant to be a 12 Monkeys reboot, it was something totally different, but when they realized how well it fit into the 12 Monkeys world thematically they reworked it to make it what it is now. I'd heartily recommend at least giving the first three episodes a watch and see what you think. If nothing else, they seem to be moving the story at a pretty breakneck pace. They've done more in these three episodes than many similar shows would attempt in a whole season, so I give them props for that.

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Zombie Hero

Is there a legal place i can stream the old episodes (hulu?) so I can catch up?

Echo

Big Dookie wrote: »

Cole himself certainly is somewhat similar to his movie counterpart in terms of being fatalistic. He's hopeful he can save the future, but he knows it's a future he'll never see. He's also quite morally gray and willing to do very bad things if he thinks it will help his mission, even if in th end it's hard to say if anything he's doing is actually making a difference.

That's something I wish the Terminator show would have given more than a basic mention - "These people would have died in Judgment Day anyway."

Big Dookie

Echo wrote: »

Big Dookie wrote: »

Cole himself certainly is somewhat similar to his movie counterpart in terms of being fatalistic. He's hopeful he can save the future, but he knows it's a future he'll never see. He's also quite morally gray and willing to do very bad things if he thinks it will help his mission, even if in th end it's hard to say if anything he's doing is actually making a difference.

That's something I wish the Terminator show would have given more than a basic mention - "These people would have died in Judgment Day anyway."

Exactly, and I think that's an important part of Cole's outlook. He has no problem killing people because in his mind, all of these people are dead already anyway. He's doing what he has to for the "greater good". The only catch being, there's no way he'll ever know if he's successful or not.

Richy

Big Dookie wrote: »

Echo wrote: »

Big Dookie wrote: »

Cole himself certainly is somewhat similar to his movie counterpart in terms of being fatalistic. He's hopeful he can save the future, but he knows it's a future he'll never see. He's also quite morally gray and willing to do very bad things if he thinks it will help his mission, even if in th end it's hard to say if anything he's doing is actually making a difference.

That's something I wish the Terminator show would have given more than a basic mention - "These people would have died in Judgment Day anyway."

Exactly, and I think that's an important part of Cole's outlook. He has no problem killing people because in his mind, all of these people are dead already anyway. He's doing what he has to for the "greater good". The only catch being, there's no way he'll ever know if he's successful or not.

Executed properly, that actually sounds like a pretty awesome background for a show lead character. You guys are really making me want to watch that now.

Big Dookie

It really is pretty good so far, much better than I was expecting. Of course, it is SyFy, and there are time travel shenanigans involved, so there's always a chance they could screw it up royally. But so far at least I've been impressed with how they've handled it.

Richy

Big Dookie wrote: »

It really is pretty good so far, much better than I was expecting. Of course, it is SyFy, and there are time travel shenanigans involved, so there's always a chance they could screw it up royally. But so far at least I've been impressed with how they've handled it.

Well, if there's no Temporal Cold War involved, it beats the last time-travel show I watched as easily as a football team using illegally deflated balls.

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Big Dookie

I think the first three eps are a good indicator of whether or not you'll like it. This week looks like a big departure from the first three, at least from the previews, as it appears to mostly take place in the future. Which could be dumb but could also be really cool depending on how they handle it. But the tone certainly looks different from the time traveling shenanigans of the first three.

But then again, previews can be misleading, so I guess we'll see.

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AlphaRomero

electricitylikesme wrote: »

No resolution on the ultimate nature of time, though I kind of expected that.

I'm wondering if we'll ever get him splintering back to the future where something has changed from how it was.

So far it seems like the film in self-fulfilling prophecy. Cole from the past heard Max call his name since she and his future self were already there. Goines had already met Cole and Cole still isn't any closer to visiting 1987, similarly the flower man already had the scar that Cole was yet to give him.

Echo

Wouldn't surprise me if we end up with a closed time-like loop, like the first Terminator movie before the sequels muck things up - John Connor and Skynet are in an infinite loop, each creating the other.

Big Dookie

I really liked this episode. I'm impressed with how they set it up and then pulled it off without any dumb contrivances like you would normally see in this kind of plot. Everything made logical sense, people acted how you would expect them to, and the payoff of seeing Cole and Max save the day was well earned. I also love Deacon as a villain. His mannerisms and attitude, and just the actor himself, are perfect. I'm glad he escaped at the end because I definitely want to see him come back for revenge.

Regarding the time loop thing... for the most part, the show has shown us that most of the things they've done had no affect on the future. But it's also shown this isn't a hard rule. After all, Cassie's watch was not scratched until Cole did it back in 2013 in the first episode. If it followed those rules, then the watch from the future should have already been scratched in the first place.

So apparently there are things Cole can do that will definitely change the future. Maybe due to his biomods or whatever that make him resistant to paradoxes. The question is, can he actually change anything that matters?

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Baron Of Hell

Big Dookie wrote: »

Which part was unclear? Not asking that in a dickish way because I agree that the show can be a little confusing, just wondering what you got hung up on.

I wasn't sure why Cole killed the guy at the end. I thought it was clear he wasn't part of the group that created the virus. Then I mistook the doctor and solider as the same person. The thing with the girl was weird but it makes sense now that I watched the latest episode. The super strong old dude is still a mystery to me. Why did he show up at that time if the outbreak wasn't related to the super virus?

Zilla360

electricitylikesme wrote: »

Big Dookie wrote: »

I really liked this episode. I'm impressed with how they set it up and then pulled it off without any dumb contrivances like you would normally see in this kind of plot. Everything made logical sense, people acted how you would expect them to, and the payoff of seeing Cole and Max save the day was well earned. I also love Deacon as a villain. His mannerisms and attitude, and just the actor himself, are perfect. I'm glad he escaped at the end because I definitely want to see him come back for revenge.

Regarding the time loop thing... for the most part, the show has shown us that most of the things they've done had no affect on the future. But it's also shown this isn't a hard rule. After all, Cassie's watch was not scratched until Cole did it back in 2013 in the first episode. If it followed those rules, then the watch from the future should have already been scratched in the first place.

So apparently there are things Cole can do that will definitely change the future. Maybe due to his biomods or whatever that make him resistant to paradoxes. The question is, can he actually change anything that matters?

It seems like paradoxes are feedback loops as far as the universe is concerned. The watches keep cycling cause and effect to each other until they explode, and the explosion burns out when the matter gets distributed enough that the effect disappears behind the Heisenberg uncertainty principle again.

Cole has the biomods I guess which make him resistant, but not impervious - everything kind of 'quivered' for him when he was near his past self.

I'm impressed that:

The time machine still worked at all whilst getting shot up mid-sequence, and then that they even had the resources to repair it afterwards.

Like most particle accelerators (CERN etc) aren't probably that damage resistant. But whatever. :rotate:

Big Dookie

electricitylikesme wrote: »

Big Dookie wrote: »

I really liked this episode. I'm impressed with how they set it up and then pulled it off without any dumb contrivances like you would normally see in this kind of plot. Everything made logical sense, people acted how you would expect them to, and the payoff of seeing Cole and Max save the day was well earned. I also love Deacon as a villain. His mannerisms and attitude, and just the actor himself, are perfect. I'm glad he escaped at the end because I definitely want to see him come back for revenge.

Regarding the time loop thing... for the most part, the show has shown us that most of the things they've done had no affect on the future. But it's also shown this isn't a hard rule. After all, Cassie's watch was not scratched until Cole did it back in 2013 in the first episode. If it followed those rules, then the watch from the future should have already been scratched in the first place.

So apparently there are things Cole can do that will definitely change the future. Maybe due to his biomods or whatever that make him resistant to paradoxes. The question is, can he actually change anything that matters?

It seems like paradoxes are feedback loops as far as the universe is concerned. The watches keep cycling cause and effect to each other until they explode, and the explosion burns out when the matter gets distributed enough that the effect disappears behind the Heisenberg uncertainty principle again.

Cole has the biomods I guess which make him resistant, but not impervious - everything kind of 'quivered' for him when he was near his past self.

Yeah, I liked that touch how he could feel it when he was so close to himself. I can't remember, did he also feel it earlier in the episode when he was in the other Cole's place?

But yeah, overall I continue to be impressed with how they are handling time travel. It could have been done in such a goosy way, but they've been quite clever about it so far. I just hope they can maintain it and not get dumb like most time travel plots eventually do.

Ketherial

i was surprised at how much i've been enjoying this show also! it's pretty great.

i have to say though, i'm actually on the other side of the fence about deacon - there are just too many of these "i'm a survivor and i'll do whatever it takes" type of guys in these post-apocalypse shows. they tire me out with how short-sighted they always are. and their names are always related to the church or religion or something (bishop, pope, deacon, priest, shepherd). just you wait, soon we'll see cardinal, chaplain, pastor. bah.

Echo

This episode was pretty intense. I was kind of expecting them to pull an "oh shit emergency time travel, stuck in the past for good" and stop doing all the future parts.

Irond Will

starring young judd nelson and young naomi watts

it's actually surprisingly good. we're only two episodes in yet though

AlphaRomero

So... are we thinking that the virus host locked in the vault was Cole?

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Zilla360

Good ep, even knowing it wouldn't offer any resolution (I'm watching with the assumed doubt that this show will not get another season).

Cole is Dave Lister... Doomed to create himself, 'the witness' and the virus in a looping paradox. :biggrin:

Jones was completely justified in conducting her experiments. There is no future for the people of 2043... They use a time machine to dry clothes. :hydra:

How did it bring him back whilst seemingly powered off?

Big Dookie

Interesting episode. So destroying the virus didn't completely change everything the way they expected it to, but it appears that it changed something.

Mego Thor

I'm liking the parts set in the future much more than I thought I would; they made a good decision by letting Cole jump back and forth instead of it being a one-way trip as in the movie. Cole's past as a former raider makes for a good back story and set up a very good episode. I'm waiting for someone on Team Time Travel to realize that if Cole succeeds in his mission, then they (might) cease to exist. I know the principle characters know this, but does Coolant Engineer No.3 think the future is so shitty, he's willing to have never been born to change it?

I really like Cole's friend, Ramse. He looks, and sounds, a lot like Cole MacGrath from the inFAMOUS games.

Echo

Mego Thor wrote: »

I really like Cole's friend, Ramse. He looks, and sounds, a lot like Cole MacGrath from the inFAMOUS games.

He was great in Fringe. Which I should watch again some time.

Tamin

hmm

odd timing

(which, puns?)

I just watched the film for the first time a few days ago.

I guess hollywood and I are on a similar wavelength?

Mego Thor

You must be a time traveler. :P

Zilla360

Jones uses MS-DOS in the future! :snap:

zakkiel

Big Dookie wrote: »

I really liked this episode. I'm impressed with how they set it up and then pulled it off without any dumb contrivances like you would normally see in this kind of plot. Everything made logical sense, people acted how you would expect them to, and the payoff of seeing Cole and Max save the day was well earned. I also love Deacon as a villain. His mannerisms and attitude, and just the actor himself, are perfect. I'm glad he escaped at the end because I definitely want to see him come back for revenge.

Regarding the time loop thing... for the most part, the show has shown us that most of the things they've done had no affect on the future. But it's also shown this isn't a hard rule. After all, Cassie's watch was not scratched until Cole did it back in 2013 in the first episode. If it followed those rules, then the watch from the future should have already been scratched in the first place.

So apparently there are things Cole can do that will definitely change the future. Maybe due to his biomods or whatever that make him resistant to paradoxes. The question is, can he actually change anything that matters?

I think the writers will have his actions alter the future, form a closed causal loop, or do nothing at all based on what's convenient for the story. Disappointing, but not surprising. No time travel show or movie is ever completely consistent about its theory of time travel.

Big Dookie

Yeah, not gonna lie, the "alternate timeline" thing bothered me a lot. So far, other than a few minor inconsistencies like the watch, it had been pretty good about showing how actions in the past only reflected things that had already happened. Here though, they went full BttF and showed a completely different timeline based on the events of that one night. This is kind of disappointing. I don't mind logical holes in my time travel as long as they are consistent. Here though, it's like they want it both ways, and you can't do that.

They've handled it well enough so far though that I'm still hopeful they can pull it together somehow. Maybe something to do with Cole's resistance to paradoxes maybe, I don't know. But still, it's the first episode where I've scratched my head and gone "Huh."

I will admit though, I loved Senator McHandsome's reaction to seeing Cole splinter. That's right douchebag, we're going down this rabbit hole together!

Irond Will

Zilla360 wrote: »

Jones uses MS-DOS in the future! :snap:

clearly the darkest timeline