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[Better Call Saul] S'All Good Man

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    MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I'm not sure I ever particularly rooted for Walt following my first viewing of the show. Season 5, the first time I watched it, was when I flipped into realizing he's been an ass the whole time and not the person to cheer. In fact there's nobody really to cheer in this show, aside from Hank after they make him less obnoxious / campy. Everybody else (aside from Jr) does stupid shit on a regular basis that hurts the people around them.

    That's almost like real life! Maybe it's examining what causes one to break bad... Dunna nana neh..

    That's kind of what I was talking about with the argument about Gus being good. We've seen him literally murder people in cold blood; justified yes, but it's hard to keep binary definitions of good and bad there.

    It's what I mean about the production values being so
    high. They had so much great foreshadowing and buildup and almost no two people like the exact same set of the characters. Like, there are people out there that like Skylar! ;)
    Nobody was arguing that Gus was good. The argument was that Gus is less of a murderous psychopath, far more calculated and considerate of others than Walt. "Better" was the specific word, but context is everything.

    Shit yeah. Gus is definitely a monster, possibly a sociopath; but plenty of CEOs are too IMO, and at least Gus tried to keep damage limited to people that were a part of that world and is generally good to his employees.

    I think he was even more innately criminal than Walt since he didn't need the life ending impetus to engage in criminality. And I would think his competence and obvious business savviness could be seen as being wasted in the criminal enterprise he pursues. He doesn't even live above means, and we don't really know if he's staying in the game because he can't get out or because he's seeking revenge.
    I just don't really see an apples for apples comparison between the two characters. They were both criminals and that's where the similarities end. Walter was more driven out of id and ego, while Gus super ego. Gus is more calculating and would've been successful even if he didn't turn to crime. It's hard for me to say which is "better" in that case. It's like arguing which is better an abused dog or a lion. They're both violent and mammals, but that's where the similarities end.

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    knitdanknitdan In ur base Killin ur guysRegistered User regular
    Based in a few things hinted at in BB, I'm reasonably certain that before Gus made chicken and sold drugs he was a General in Pinochet's Chile. Which means massive human rights abuses at the very least.
    When he first meets Don Elario, Elario tells him "the only reason you're still alive is because I know who you really are". Another character derisively refers to him as generalissimo.. And his records from Chile are mysteriously scrubbed, implying he went to the trouble of doing so because he had something big to hide.

    “I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
    -Indiana Solo, runner of blades
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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    knitdan wrote: »
    Based in a few things hinted at in BB, I'm reasonably certain that before Gus made chicken and sold drugs he was a General in Pinochet's Chile. Which means massive human rights abuses at the very least.
    When he first meets Don Elario, Elario tells him "the only reason you're still alive is because I know who you really are". Another character derisively refers to him as generalissimo.. And his records from Chile are mysteriously scrubbed, implying he went to the trouble of doing so because he had something big to hide.
    That's a lot of conclusions to leap to. And if I remember right, the line is "I know who you are," as in minus the 'really.' Let me go back in a few minutes here.

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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Be pretty young for a general. He's in Mexico by the 80s, and he's somewhere 45-50ish in Breaking Bad which is late aughts.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    Ah now that was a good sode. Nice to finally see
    Chuck get fucked.

    cs6f034fsffl.jpg
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    GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    Ah now that was a good sode. Nice to finally see
    Chuck get fucked.
    Huell should have stuck with pick-pocketing

    Black lives matter.
    Law and Order ≠ Justice
    ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
    Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    (Spoiled minor Breaking Bad character return in tonight's episode)
    Lavell Crawford (Huell) lost 100 pounds since BB. Good for him.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Didn't notice anybody mention it, but I just caught the first implicit confirmation on the theory I've had since we had the first Gus flashback in Breaking Bad.
    In last weeks episode, Hector called Los Pollos Hermanos a gay slur instead. First direct confirmation on Gus being gay.

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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Oh god. That was so good.

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    HiroconHirocon Registered User regular
    Oh man, a couple weeks ago I made a prediction about where the plot would go, and I used the word "chicanery". And the name of episode 5 is actually "Chicanery". I was spot on. Now we just need to see some hijinks and some shenanigans and we'll be all set.

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    HiroconHirocon Registered User regular
    I just watched the episode.
    That was pretty flimsy, in my opinion. Isn't it Chuck's explanation for his illness that only actively flowing currents cause him physical harm? A battery just sitting there not plugged into anything doesn't have a flowing current. It wouldn't trigger Chuck's symptoms even if those symptoms weren't psychosomatic. Why didn't Jimmy stick an entire cell phone in Chuck's pocket, battery and all, turned on? Then they could have done the reveal by actually calling the cell phone and having it ring from Chuck's pocket, proving that the cell phone was on the whole time. The trick doesn't really work with just an unplugged battery.

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    HiroconHirocon Registered User regular
    Lavell Crawford (Huell) lost 100 pounds since BB. Good for him.
    You mean he gained 100 pounds since Better Call Saul. Man, he really let himself go.

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    SavantSavant Simply Barbaric Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Hirocon wrote: »
    I just watched the episode.
    That was pretty flimsy, in my opinion. Isn't it Chuck's explanation for his illness that only actively flowing currents cause him physical harm? A battery just sitting there not plugged into anything doesn't have a flowing current. It wouldn't trigger Chuck's symptoms even if those symptoms weren't psychosomatic. Why didn't Jimmy stick an entire cell phone in Chuck's pocket, battery and all, turned on? Then they could have done the reveal by actually calling the cell phone and having it ring from Chuck's pocket, proving that the cell phone was on the whole time. The trick doesn't really work with just an unplugged battery.

    Chuck's illness,
    Chuck's explanation for his illness has always been unscientific and flimsy, because it is not based on any real reactions to electromagnetic fields, only his perception of them being present, and this was shown all the way back in the first episode he was taken to the hospital. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the stuff he freaked about about, like the watches and whatnot, gave off a much weaker EM effect than the gas lantern he lugs around.

    A battery in his pocket shouldn't affect Chuck either way, but he freaks out when he takes it out of his pocket and starts his breakdown. If he took out the battery and laughed off saying that it unplugged was too weak be much worse relative to the lights in the room or even the sunlight coming in through the window (spoiler alert, that's EM radiation too), maybe it would have gone down differently. But no, it showed his reaction only occurred when he realized it was there, not due to it actually being there.

    Edit: also, a cellphone in the pocket of that era, could potentially produce enough effects that a totally normal person could notice them. I remember those buggers could get hot.

    Savant on
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    Savant wrote: »
    Hirocon wrote: »
    I just watched the episode.
    That was pretty flimsy, in my opinion. Isn't it Chuck's explanation for his illness that only actively flowing currents cause him physical harm? A battery just sitting there not plugged into anything doesn't have a flowing current. It wouldn't trigger Chuck's symptoms even if those symptoms weren't psychosomatic. Why didn't Jimmy stick an entire cell phone in Chuck's pocket, battery and all, turned on? Then they could have done the reveal by actually calling the cell phone and having it ring from Chuck's pocket, proving that the cell phone was on the whole time. The trick doesn't really work with just an unplugged battery.

    Chuck's illness,
    Chuck's explanation for his illness has always been unscientific and flimsy, because it is not based on any real reactions to electromagnetic fields, only his perception of them being present, and this was shown all the way back in the first episode he was taken to the hospital. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the stuff he freaked about about, like the watches and whatnot, gave off a much weaker EM effect than the gas lantern he lugs around.

    A battery in his pocket shouldn't affect Chuck either way, but he freaks out when he takes it out of his pocket and starts his breakdown. If he took out the battery and laughed off saying that it unplugged was too weak be much worse relative to the lights in the room or even the sunlight coming in through the window (spoiler alert, that's EM radiation too), maybe it would have gone down differently. But no, it showed his reaction only occurred when he realized it was there, not due to it actually being there.
    And Jimmy was uniquely positioned to know all of the things that freak him out courtesy of taking care of him for so long.

    If you recall, even putting weak c or d cell batteries in the tape player caused him harm.

    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    That was a satisfying episode.
    I loved the slow zoom in during Chuck's tirade contrasting with the last shot of him sitting there silent and tiny in the wide shot. Even though it was obvious what was going on as soon as Huell bumped into him, which never happens on TV without it being a way to surreptitiously move something from one person to another, my heart was pounding during Jimmy's cross-examination.

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    I was totally waiting for a cell phone to ring to mimic the opening scene.

    cs6f034fsffl.jpg
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    SealSeal Registered User regular
    Chuck
    just revealed himself to be mentally ill and that he's been avoiding treatment for years, that shit doesn't wash off. Before he always had the benefit of the doubt as a well spoken, respected lawyer. Now he's the guy sitting in the park yelling about the transmitter the government put in his brain and Jimmy is his poor hardworking brother who finally had enough after Crazy Chuck tried, again, to sabotage him. It puts into doubt everything Chuck has said while putting Jimmy's actions in a context that makes them appear much more reasonable. Especially since he had the chance to commit Chuck but didn't.

    The final scene really reminded me of that part in Independence Day when they shove the crop duster pilot into the police car and he's all "we've gotta stop them!"

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    GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    HAHAHAHAHA FUCK CHUCK!
    Called it! Oh that rant at the end was perfect, and the only way that could have ended. I couldn't have imagined he would go so insane as to rant about child Jimmy though! Oh man. Like I always say, when they are on the stand eventually the crazy will come out. Just keep em talking long enough and it is bound to happen. Edit: I did like one touch. Jimmy could barely look at Chuck when he asked him to pull out the cell phone battery. After all the shit Chuck has done to him, he still can't stand to actually hurt him.

    Hamlin, as always, sees the best way forward only to be completely over-ruled by self righteous Charles McGill. I really feel sorry for him in the end. All of this could have been avoided if he had more of a voice in the company. The law firm of Hamlin & Hamlin would have had an industrious and hard working lawyer who had built himself up from the mail room.

    So about the previews for the next episode. I say this to warn those who consider them a spoiler away. I wonder what causes Jimmy to change his name finally? Is McGill just too tainted what with one being super crazy, and the other having escaped being disbarred because the other one is super crazy? It looks like we might get more insight into how he starts working with criminals over the elderly, but maybe he has a side project running throughout BB where he quietly helps with wills and setting up trust funds.

    Gnizmo on
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    see317see317 Registered User regular
    I really liked the nepotism line. Probably the best chuckle I had all day.

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    SavantSavant Simply Barbaric Registered User regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    HAHAHAHAHA FUCK CHUCK!
    Called it! Oh that rant at the end was perfect, and the only way that could have ended. I couldn't have imagined he would go so insane as to rant about child Jimmy though! Oh man. Like I always say, when they are on the stand eventually the crazy will come out. Just keep em talking long enough and it is bound to happen. Edit: I did like one touch. Jimmy could barely look at Chuck when he asked him to pull out the cell phone battery. After all the shit Chuck has done to him, he still can't stand to actually hurt him.

    Hamlin, as always, sees the best way forward only to be completely over-ruled by self righteous Charles McGill. I really feel sorry for him in the end. All of this could have been avoided if he had more of a voice in the company. The law firm of Hamlin & Hamlin would have had an industrious and hard working lawyer who had built himself up from the mail room.

    So about the previews for the next episode. I say this to warn those who consider them a spoiler away. I wonder what causes Jimmy to change his name finally? Is McGill just too tainted what with one being super crazy, and the other having escaped being disbarred because the other one is super crazy? It looks like we might get more insight into how he starts working with criminals over the elderly, but maybe he has a side project running throughout BB where he quietly helps with wills and setting up trust funds.

    Chuck's rant,
    Jimmy clearly did about as much as he could to prod Chuck into going into that rant, as he knew Chuck's weak points. I speculated earlier that Chuck's wife leaving him could have played into his mental illness, and given the timing revealed by Jimmy of its onset that looks pretty likely. Bringing her in and going into their past along with the chicanery with the battery had to be sufficiently stressful for Chuck that he had trouble holding back the crazy.

    The thing with Chuck is that he has quite a bit right about Jimmy, he's just completely unaware of or unwilling to own up to his own weaknesses and character defects. He can't or won't accept that his disease is psychosomatic and that he is mentally ill, and he doesn't seem to get just how much his resentment of Jimmy clouds his perception of him and even exacerbates Jimmy's devious tendencies. He just sees Jimmy as the two bit conman, which Jimmy is, but doesn't appreciate how far Jimmy is willing to go to carry water for the people he cares about, especially Chuck himself. Burning Jimmy's bridges like Chuck is hellbent on doing seems like what is going to give us Saul Goodman.

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    CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Ah now that was a good sode. Nice to finally see
    Chuck get fucked.
    Huell should have stuck with pick-pocketing
    Actually I wonder if he ever got charged, Saul destroyed most of the evidence of his enterprises. Hank and Gomez knew something, but, well.

    It was nice to see him again in a more believable feat, I always thought the cigarette trick was ridiculous.

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    Skull2185Skull2185 Registered User regular
    Great stuff, finally an episode solely focused on Jimmy! Fantastic tension at the end too.

    I did a little "hooray" fist pump at the beginning of the episode when Jimmy was talking to the vet
    and he asked if the pick pocket specialist "needed to fit anywhere tight."
    Super obvious who that was going to be, and it made me very happy.

    Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    I'm extremely interested in the legal accuracy of this episode

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    knitdanknitdan In ur base Killin ur guysRegistered User regular
    They mentioned in one of the previous episodes that a hearing before the bar isn't quite as structured as a court of law.

    “I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
    -Indiana Solo, runner of blades
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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Jimmy would still be guilty of technically breaking and entering and maybe assault, but this definitely proved to the bar representatives that he only said what he did to ease the mind of his ailing brother.

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    MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    knitdan wrote: »
    They mentioned in one of the previous episodes that a hearing before the bar isn't quite as structured as a court of law.

    Yea. Bar Arbitration is just that, arbitration. The specifics depend on the state and I have no clue what New Mexico is like. They don't even have an online way to file disputes apparently, so seems pretty podunk.

    http://www.nmbar.org

    Edit: Never mind found it. You can find the protocols as well if so inclined by googling New Mexico bar disciplinary hearing.

    https://www.nmdisboard.org

    MadCaddy on
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    DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    Jimmy would still be guilty of technically breaking and entering and maybe assault, but this definitely proved to the bar representatives that he only said what he did to ease the mind of his ailing brother.

    I had asked a lawyer friend about this back when Jack Thompson was doing his thing. Stuff like being a jerk or even assault and what not are usually not as big deals to bars as crimes that violate trust and/or impact the legal process. So the portion of the charge related to breaking down Chuck's door isn't really grounds for disbarment. The destruction of evidence in a legal matter is a big huge mclarge deal to the bar.

    If the bar knew half the shit that Jimmy had gotten up to they would disbar him in a second but he may well get off with just a warning or short suspension for the property destruction in an emotionally charged moment of family drama.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
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    TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    Hirocon wrote: »
    I don't care about the drug trade at all, we already got five seasons of that in Breaking Bad. I care about legal and pseudo-legal shenanigans. I care about Jimmy.

    Put me down as the opposite. The last episode was a snoozefest for me, personally.

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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    We've talked about what ends up happening to Kim. Does she die? Become disbarred? Become so disillusioned with Jimmy that she leaves him, triggering his descent into Saul?

    Is there anything in Breaking Bad to indicate that it's not None Of The Above? Perhaps she doesn't leave him. Perhaps she becomes so morally compromised that she stays with him even after he stops being a Criminal Lawyer and becomes a criminal lawyer. I think this episode has already shown her going to places that she would never have gone to in season 1, endorsing the reverse-pickpocketing of Chuck and his emotional manipulation. Every day that she works on Mesa Verde she's taking money from a client that she acquired through Jimmy's criminal means.

    Maybe Kim was waiting at home for Saul all along.

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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    Tube wrote: »
    We've talked about what ends up happening to Kim. Does she die? Become disbarred? Become so disillusioned with Jimmy that she leaves him, triggering his descent into Saul?

    Is there anything in Breaking Bad to indicate that it's not None Of The Above? Perhaps she doesn't leave him. Perhaps she becomes so morally compromised that she stays with him even after he stops being a Criminal Lawyer and becomes a criminal lawyer. I think this episode has already shown her going to places that she would never have gone to in season 1, endorsing the reverse-pickpocketing of Chuck and his emotional manipulation. Every day that she works on Mesa Verde she's taking money from a client that she acquired through Jimmy's criminal means.

    Maybe Kim was waiting at home for Saul all along.
    We never saw his personal life in BB, this is true.

    What if she is right there with him, waiting for him to come home from his Cinna-Job.

    Her life just as fucked as his.

    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    syndalis wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    We've talked about what ends up happening to Kim. Does she die? Become disbarred? Become so disillusioned with Jimmy that she leaves him, triggering his descent into Saul?

    Is there anything in Breaking Bad to indicate that it's not None Of The Above? Perhaps she doesn't leave him. Perhaps she becomes so morally compromised that she stays with him even after he stops being a Criminal Lawyer and becomes a criminal lawyer. I think this episode has already shown her going to places that she would never have gone to in season 1, endorsing the reverse-pickpocketing of Chuck and his emotional manipulation. Every day that she works on Mesa Verde she's taking money from a client that she acquired through Jimmy's criminal means.

    Maybe Kim was waiting at home for Saul all along.
    We never saw his personal life in BB, this is true.

    What if she is right there with him, waiting for him to come home from his Cinna-Job.

    Her life just as fucked as his.

    It's one of the best endings to BCS that I can think of (but the writers are smarter than me).
    But I would interpret it as him having to finally leave her for the Cinna-Job.
    That's what would really tear him up, finally losing Kim.

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    MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Yea, the tampering and knowingly submitting falsified evidence is a big deal in the eyes of the BAR. Crimes of moral turpitude are a big deal to BAR associations. Attorneys get disbarred for them more easily and commonly than they do for violent crimes, primarily since the legal system exists for the latter and their existence is owed to pursue investigations of the former. Attorneys that aren't even able to be convicted in a court of law are commonly disbarred for embezzlement or purjory. Jimmy most likely would be disbarred in the real world. I'm really interested in if they're going to do the name change in a convincing manner.

    MadCaddy on
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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    I don't think he ever legally changes his name to Saul

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    MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    I don't think he ever legally changes his name to Saul

    Yea, you're most likely right about him not doing a legal name change. I just don't really see how he avoids the disbarment with the confession, and then achieves the name change reset in the real world. Hopefully, it's a strong episode next week because these aren't impossible things, just very unlikely.

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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    I don't think changing his name would do him any good if he were disbarred. I don't think he'll be disbarred, for that reason, unless he was practicing illegally in Breaking Bad.

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    MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    I don't think changing his name would do him any good if he were disbarred. I don't think he'll be disbarred, for that reason, unless he was practicing illegally in Breaking Bad.

    Yea, it wouldn't. At least, not in the same state for sure. We never saw him in a court of law, but we did see him representing in Police HQ and running commercials in Breaking Bad so he'll still be licensed, I'd hope. The weird part is with his commercials thatthey've depicted. Running those under two different names in the same area in the same state just strains my suspension of disbelief a bit, but I have faith in Vince Gilligan to at least keep it entertaining. They had the whole thing about how his McGill commercial was run primarily near the old folks home and during Marlock, so they're good at giving it enough reasoning to be passable. It just feels like there's gonna have to be some shenanigans involving Kim and the disciplinary board to fill in a lot of these questions.

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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Just watched this. Great stuff. Had a thought on Jimmy's strategy:
    I think the primary purpose of bringing in Chuck's ex wasn't to rattle him (though it would have that as a nice bonus). I'd say the purpose was to fully cement the perception of Chuck as mentally unfit. Yes, planting the battery was proof that it was all in Chuck's head. But that came after Jimmy laid out the timeline of Chuck's disease. Plus, Jimmy specifically got Chuck to admit that he hid this condition from his wife, but wouldn't have hid lung cancer. With that as background, the battery revelation didn't reveal Chuck to be crazy for no reason, it painted him as crazy due to the stress of the divorce. The cause and effect made the mental illness tactic more believable.

    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
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    Solomaxwell6Solomaxwell6 Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Just watched this. Great stuff. Had a thought on Jimmy's strategy:
    I think the primary purpose of bringing in Chuck's ex wasn't to rattle him (though it would have that as a nice bonus). I'd say the purpose was to fully cement the perception of Chuck as mentally unfit. Yes, planting the battery was proof that it was all in Chuck's head. But that came after Jimmy laid out the timeline of Chuck's disease. Plus, Jimmy specifically got Chuck to admit that he hid this condition from his wife, but wouldn't have hid lung cancer. With that as background, the battery revelation didn't reveal Chuck to be crazy for no reason, it painted him as crazy due to the stress of the divorce. The cause and effect made the mental illness tactic more believable.

    I disagree.
    First of all, the show's opening scenes were specifically showing how important it is to Chuck that his ex doesn't know about his condition. This ties in to what we see in the courtroom... Chuck still has feelings for her, doesn't want her to think he's crazy, and so his need to defend himself moves from a rational one (so that the arbitration committee sides with him) to an emotional one (hiding it from his ex). That emotional response is what led to Chuck's rant. Second of all, there's no need to give a specific cause for Chuck's mental illness. People become mentally ill for many reasons, and sometimes for no discernible external reason at all. Would Chuck be any less ill if his mental illness happened because he just happened to have a bad day, or if it just started one day out of the blue? The reason Chuck looks unfit isn't because there's an obvious trail of too much stress, it's because he honestly is mentally ill and gave a rant pretty all but admitting as much.

    Solomaxwell6 on
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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    I'm certain I've done it in recent history, but it's worth noting that "crazy" as a pejorative is something to avoid. Chuck is mentally ill, not crazy.

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    Solomaxwell6Solomaxwell6 Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    That's fair. They are not synonymous words and using them as such is belittling.

    Edit: Although I don't think that just referring to Chuck as mentally ill is all that appropriate terminology either. The issue is not just whether or not he's mentally ill--having an irrational phobia towards electromagnetics does not necessarily make someone a bad lawyer or unfit. If Chuck had sat down at a hearing and calmly said that he has no idea why he reacts that way, he knows it's totally psychosomatic, perhaps it's unusual and even offputting but it'd be totally irrelevant to the case. The actual events we saw, however, came not so much from his mental illness but his own personality and his reaction to that mental illness and to Jimmy.

    Solomaxwell6 on
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