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[PA Comic] Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - Vis A Vis My Lawn

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Posts

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    I feel like a lot of this could be avoided if the kid would just outright ask for an hour of uninterrupted game time. The parent could then acquiesce or not, and if not, then perhaps the kid ought to consider playing something else that can be easily paused and/or quickly saved.

    I mean, I still haven't gotten anywhere in Dark Souls 2 because I'm an adult with three kids and I have fucking responsibilities, and can't reasonably expect to have a couple of hours where pausing the game is completely unnecessary. But I don't get butthurt about it and blame the things in my life that conspire to rob me of a Dark Souls 2 experience.

    If a kid can't find the time to play an online game where it isn't infringing upon the needs and expectations of the people they live with every day, then perhaps they ought to consider whether or not that particular game experience is so enriching to their being that it is worth defying their guardians. Personally, I'm fine with kids learning early on that they don't have time to do every single thing they want, not need, to do.

    Grey PaladinLinktmBolthornPuddingpiePLAmysticjuicerBloodySloth
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Ashiver wrote: »
    If your kid was playing baseball or soccer or even bowling and you happened to live next door to the field/bowling alley they happened to be playing at you wouldn't pull them from their game in the middle of it and say "HEY, TIME FOR DINNER FUCK YOUR TEAM".

    That happens all the time with non-organised play, what are you talking about? You go out to the park to play ball, come home when you get called in for dinner. The team re-organises around whoever's left.

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
    joshofalltradesDjiemMister KojakCambiataCaulk Bite 6KageraSpiritfireTheCanManNiceguyeddie616QuidYoungFreyAegeriGaslightTheDrifterTofystedethPLANibCrommysticjuicerAndy JoeRagnar DragonfyrePsychosmileyBloodySlothadmanbphysi_marcBobbleSyphyrejjae2123LovelydonavannjNecroxPantsB
  • Grey PaladinGrey Paladin Registered User regular
    I feel like a lot of this could be avoided if the kid would just outright ask for an hour of uninterrupted game time. The parent could then acquiesce or not, and if not, then perhaps the kid ought to consider playing something else that can be easily paused and/or quickly saved.

    I mean, I still haven't gotten anywhere in Dark Souls 2 because I'm an adult with three kids and I have fucking responsibilities, and can't reasonably expect to have a couple of hours where pausing the game is completely unnecessary. But I don't get butthurt about it and blame the things in my life that conspire to rob me of a Dark Souls 2 experience.

    If a kid can't find the time to play an online game where it isn't infringing upon the needs and expectations of the people they live with every day, then perhaps they ought to consider whether or not that particular game experience is so enriching to their being that it is worth defying their guardians. Personally, I'm fine with kids learning early on that they don't have time to do every single thing they want, not need, to do.
    I can't agree enough. This will also teach the child time management and the value of time in general.

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    I have no kids, I hate having someone disconnect from my "MOBA" match and cost us the victory and ruin the game for everyone.

    So, obviously... I agree with Tycho, 100%, and that "Open Letter" on the Riot forums is absolutely ridiculous. As angry as I get over that shit happening to me, IT IS A VIDEOGAME. In no way, shape or form, is it ever more important than proper parenting. Yes, you shouldn't commit to something if you can't follow through, but this is on the kid, not on the parent. The parent doesn't, and shouldn't, give a fuck about what's going to happen to me when they pull little Timmy off of the PC so he can go eat his dinner or do his homework. It sucks, but it's part of life. If it was really that big of a deal, I'd join a "hardcore" clan.

    Just because it sucks and I hate when it happens doesn't mean I'm going to lose all sense of perspective and reality and claim that my victory matters more than some parent's parenting.
    This said, when the kid is older, there is usually more room to dialogue and understanding, and to letting the kid finish a game. But when it's a young kid who starts a game deliberately to try and delay bedtime, NO, you don't let them finish. You pull them right the fuck off the computer.

    As @Rhesus Positive said re: people taking the game more seriously: So what?

    Djiem on
    CambiataLinktmjoshofalltradesTheCanManAegeriTheDrifterTofystedethAndy JoePsychosmileyBloodySlothZilla360LovelydonavannjNecrox
  • GanluanGanluan Registered User regular
    Disclaimer: I am not a parent.
    I agree with the "Don't start what you can't finish" line of thought and that real life comes first, but I always found the insistence on eating as a family really weird. If a child has to do their chores or their homework then sure, but why the emphasis on the dinner ritual?

    Because it's an established time when everyone sits down together and can talk face to face. Dinner is an easy one because everyone is typically home by then and everyone needs to eat, so having that be the established "family communication" time is very common.

    The point of this comic is the exact reason I stopped playing MMOs - I felt bad because I could never commit to long amounts of time for raids or longer instanced content, and it wouldn't have been fair to others to constantly join them knowing just that.

    GaslightLinktmSpiritfireTheDrifterBloodySloth
  • Agent86Agent86 Registered User regular
    I've seen the little league/rl sports analogy used a few times. But kids are pulled out of rl sports ALL THE TIME. Maybe not if you're in the state championships on your high school team or whatever, but it's never been my experience where it's like "fuck your parents for making you miss our rec league game to see your Grandma" or whatever. And if that is the way the conversation goes, those people are taking rec league sports too seriously.

    However, I don't have teenagers yet, maybe it gets to be more serious.

    CambiataYoungFreyRagnar Dragonfyre
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Senna1 wrote: »
    I was kinda expecting the letter to be super obnoxious but it's actually pretty reasonable
    lolwut?

    How about: no.
    Linktm wrote: »
    I totally understand real life happens and it's important, and I'd say it's more important than a Non-Ranked Match, it sucks when that stuff happens, but it's not permanently affecting you in any meaningful way. You just surrender at 20 or whatever and count your losses (it's nice that Heroes of the Storm gives you an AI character replacement, even if they're as dumb as a brick.) For ranked play, that's a little more "serious"...
    Real life is only more important than "non-ranked" videogames?

    Again, how about: no. (and a healthy dose of: really?... Really???!)
    Parenting tips from someone who comes across sounding like they are barely 20 with no responsibilities in life. Truly adorable.
    This. 1000X this. Videogame mission/quest completion, ranked or not, is at about position, oh, 2375 on the list of "things I give a shit about as a parent". "Is my child obeying me, right now"? is in the top 10. Every time.
    FaustXIII wrote: »
    To me, a healthy parent-child relationship involves compromise and communication otherwise you as a parent are acting like a dictator.
    You don't "compromise" w/ a 10-year old or teenager. You set boundaries, then enforce them. There is a time for discussion w/ more mature children, but it isn't in the middle of them disobeying me in favor of a G-D computer game.

    How about this: if you as a ranked videogame player don't want to deal with the potential of pub players having to leave unexpectedly, don't play with them. Set up a clan. Vet your team to eliminate likely unreliable players and those who aren't capable of self-determination of their schedules (like, say, children).

    Games are a social contract and the parent and child are both being goosey in situations where the parent not being good at enforcing time management/boundaries and the kid taking advantage of that lead to them wrecking nine other players game.

    The difference between controlling your kid by unplugging the computer or by waiting twenty minutes, un-installing the game and not letting them play it for two weeks isn't going to change the end result (your kid will hopefully get that there's a time and place to start a game) but does prevent you being a dick.
    streever wrote: »
    @Albino Bunny
    I think the letter starts of somewhat reasonably, but devolves at the end.
    "Let him finish the game. This sounds like you're letting your child walk all over you, but please just let the game finish normally and follow through with step 2."

    What? why would a parent give a care about some other person's "League of Legends" score? Nah, parents don't have to let their kids finish video games. The parents should absolutely have the right to say "No, I don't care, turn it off. You're eating dinner with us."

    The letter was definitely focused on the players not involved in the tiff I agree. I don't think that's necessarily a devolution to stick to the point of 'hey we're people trying to play a game, maybe try to parent in a way that doesn't make your kid a problem for us'.

    LinktmPuddingpiecB557
  • surfer99surfer99 Registered User new member
    honestly, i cannot truely describe how utter dissappointed i am in the above comic, i lost all and every ounce of respect i had for you guys - and considering you started childsplay that was alot of respect.

    Would you go to your sons football match, which due to extended play time cut into your standard meal time - and forcefully remove him from said game causing his team to loose the match ? - if yes i would consider you the worst and most horrible parent in existance, if no - why is this different when the game is on the computer instead of on grass ?

    If necessary teach your kid not to commit to games when there is mealtime/family time or other appointment, but teach them when they commit to something leaving everyone else hanging is despicable.

  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    surfer99 wrote: »
    honestly, i cannot truely describe how utter dissappointed i am in the above comic, i lost all and every ounce of respect i had for you guys - and considering you started childsplay that was alot of respect.

    Would you go to your sons football match, which due to extended play time cut into your standard meal time - and forcefully remove him from said game causing his team to loose the match ? - if yes i would consider you the worst and most horrible parent in existance, if no - why is this different when the game is on the computer instead of on grass ?

    If necessary teach your kid not to commit to games when there is mealtime/family time or other appointment, but teach them when they commit to something leaving everyone else hanging is despicable.

    If you lost ALL respect over the Child's Play guys over their opinion over parenting and MOBAs, and that makes them the WORST and MOST HORRIBLE parents in existence, you might have your priorities all messed up.

    Grey PaladinGaslightRhesus PositiveMister KojakAlbino BunnyCambiataAsharadLawforKageraLinktmBolthornKetBraPuddingpiefoodlejoshofalltradesQuidEl MuchoNiceguyeddie616A Dabble Of TheloniusYoungFreyFyndirAegeriYesIAmThatGuypirateluigiTheDrifterPLAdarleysamJohanFlickRobonunmysticjuicermRahmaniArithon32CenoAndy JoeRagnar DragonfyrePsychosmileyBloodySlothZilla360admanbSmrtnikWiseManTobesBobbleDoctorArchSyphyreProlegomenajjae2123LovelyGoose!donavannjDrCongoPantsB
  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    surfer99 wrote: »
    honestly, i cannot truely describe how utter dissappointed i am in the above comic, i lost all and every ounce of respect i had for you guys - and considering you started childsplay that was alot of respect.

    Would you go to your sons football match, which due to extended play time cut into your standard meal time - and forcefully remove him from said game causing his team to loose the match ? - if yes i would consider you the worst and most horrible parent in existance, if no - why is this different when the game is on the computer instead of on grass ?

    If necessary teach your kid not to commit to games when there is mealtime/family time or other appointment, but teach them when they commit to something leaving everyone else hanging is despicable.

    I really want the Hail Hydra buttons back right now.

    Grey PaladinMister KojakAlbino BunnyCambiataPenumbraLinktmBolthornTheCanManAegeriTheDrifterRobonunmysticjuicerKoopahTroopahAndy JoeZilla360WiseManTobesBobbleLovelyNobody
  • ObstreperousObstreperous Registered User regular
    (insert sound of applause here)

  • RedthirstRedthirst Registered User regular
    Linktm wrote: »
    Because somebody wanted to play a game in order to have fun and relax and now they're doing the exact opposite of that.
    While I agree with your points, how many people actually play games like LoL or Dota 2 to relax.
    Also, I've got this weird image of SumaiL(a 15 year old Dota 2 pro player, who just won a tournament for 1 million dollars with his team, with 250k going directly to him) being in this situation while playing a pro game.

    steam_sig.png
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    That's why it's no different then pulling your son or daughter out of a little league game in the middle of it.

    It's actually not like that at all.

    Instead, it's like a child committing to be at a little league game without telling their parents, and then on the day of the game the child calls in saying they don't actually have a ride to the game or any equipment, because they didn't tell their parents they needed it. In that situation it is not "on the parent" to rush to the store to buy the needed equipment and then drive the child to the game, because if they don't they are "letting the other players down." Instead it was on the child to have explained this to the parent in advance, and maybe the answer is "You won't be able to go to those games because we are at church at the times when the games happen," or what have you.

    The learning that needs to go on here is not, "child gets whatever they want no matter how unreasonable, because there are 9 other people involved!" Teaching the child that if other people are involved they can get away with breaking all the rules is not a good lesson in respect for other people at all, it's a lesson in using other people to manipulate your way into whatever you want.

    Frankly I'm appalled that this is the all important lesson that internet people think that parents need to know about, respecting other people's "stats", a thing that those people won't remember or care about in 5 years. When this could have been a post about how not to be a toxic bully online, and how parents should pay attention what kind of behavior kids are exhibiting online.

    Albino BunnySenna1DjiemK.MI.K.C.SkyEyeGaslightMister KojakTwistedAkaifoodleSpiritfirejoshofalltradesEl MuchoNiceguyeddie616A Dabble Of TheloniusYoungFreyAegeripirateluigiTheDrifterTofystedethdarleysamJohanFlickfightinfilipinoAndy JoeRagnar DragonfyrePsychosmileyBloodySlothZilla360admanbBobbleSyphyrejjae2123LovelydonavannjNecrox
  • jwalkjwalk Registered User regular
    vidio gaems r SRS BSNS!!!

    totes, totes adorbz.

    listen, if you play online video games with other players on the internet, there's 2 things you are signing up for

    #1 the other players might drop out in the middle of the game - for whatever reason. they might get disconnected. their computer might crash. their mommy might call them to dinner. they might have to get up to attend to their screaming baby in the other room. they might get a phone call from their teenage son saying he's in jail and can you come bail me out - shit happens - it's what you agree to when you play vidyo games online with other players..

    #2 being called a gay mexican lizard

    deal with it.

    GaslightSilentRoughWaterEl MuchoNiceguyeddie616Ragnar DragonfyrePsychosmileyadmanb
  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    I don't get the whole "It's like pulling your son or daughter out of a little league game" analogy.
    It's NOTHING like that. It's not even close.

    A League of Legends game is the same as a bunch of kids playing soccer or baseball in the park. They've committed to playing a game together, but then a parent pulls one of the kids off to eat dinner. Big whoop.

    Comparing LoL to Little League would be fine if the kid was playing in some kind of organized tournament, in which case I doubt the parents would pull them off the game. The idea of Little League is usually that the parents signed the kid up in it or gave consent in some form. It has nothing to do with League of Legends, even if the kid queued up for Ranked instead of Non-Ranked.

    CambiataRhesus PositiveGaslightBolthornfoodlejoshofalltradesNiceguyeddie616AegeriTheDrifterRagnar DragonfyreBloodySlothZilla360Lovelydonavannj
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. boom Registered User regular
    i think the letter is crafted to be very manipulative and appeal to certain sensibilities and i think the entire conversation here is a mark of the success of that manipulation

    liEt3nH.png
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    I dunno, I guess I'm not a fan of stuff that comes close to collective punishment (even if the parent doesn't intend it).

    Having to miss out on spare time because someone else in your year group was a shit was a common thing for me in school and it's pretty annoying even in games.

    LinktmPuddingpiecB557
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    I'm reminded of an unauthorised party my sister threw when we were growing up. When my parents called the house, they were seriously pissed and cut their evening short to come home and tear her a new one (this was not a first offence). My sister's excuse for why she couldn't tell everybody to leave immediately was that she had just put some pasta on to boil, and it would be rude to send them home on an empty stomach.

    This did not go down well.

    Moral: If you start something in the knowledge that you might get stopped prematurely, that's on you. The rudeness was baked in from the start.

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
    CambiatajoshofalltradestastydonutsNiceguyeddie616YoungFreydarleysamfightinfilipinoRagnar DragonfyreLovelydonavannj
  • jwalkjwalk Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    re: the letter

    I suppose it starts off ok. "also teach your child respect for others" - ok. fine.

    but then... well, personally I heard a little laugh-track going off inside my head when I got to the line:
    " his actions will permanently affect the statistics of up to 9 other people."

    hahaha, good one. ooh wait you were serious? HAHAHAHA

    AFFECT! the STATISTICS people! THE STATISTICS!

    jwalk on
    CambiataSilentRoughWaterJam WarriorfoodlejoshofalltradesTheDrifterdarleysamJohanFlickRobonunNibCromAndy JoeRagnar DragonfyreBloodySlothBobbleLovelyGoose!DrCongoZombie Hero
  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    You know what also permanently affects my statistics in those games?
    Trolls and incredibly unskilled players.

    Kids who need to eat dinner are probably the least common of my annoyances.

    Djiem on
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Moral: If you start something in the knowledge that you might get stopped prematurely, that's on you. The rudeness was baked in from the start.

    This reminds me of advice on how to deal with difficult people (ie, adults who throw tantrums if the slightest thing doesn't go their way). "Don't worry about ruining the holidays [by, for example, refusing to go to a holiday event with someone you know will cause a scene]. With [tantrum throwing adults], the holidays come pre-ruined."

    If a kid comes into a game 5 minutes before his bedtime, the parent isn't ruining the game by pulling them off: that game came pre-ruined.

    Cambiata on
    Rhesus PositiveLinktmDjiemjoshofalltradesAndy JoeRagnar DragonfyreBobbleCaulk Bite 6
  • Senna1Senna1 Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Games are a social contract and the parent and child are both being goosey in situations where the parent not being good at enforcing time management/boundaries and the kid taking advantage of that lead to them wrecking nine other players game.
    Every interaction with any other human is a "social contract" of some form or another; I'm not sure why this would give MOBAs or any other videogame type any special significance. Children are goosey by definition - their whole point of existence is to figure out the whole "being a person" thing (as Tycho recently put it in one of his news posts). Correcting this goosey behavior is parent priority #2 (or so - behind protecting their safety). If you choose to enter into a social contract with someone else's child, you willingly accept the risk that they might, at some point, display childish goosey behavior - and that's on you, as an adult, to deal with. Don't blame the parent for trying to do the responsible thing and enforce the rules/boundaries the child is in the process of breaking.

    Not enforcing time management boundaries, entirely for the convenience of a bunch of people outside the family unit, is what this entire "Letter to Parents" is all about.
    The difference between controlling your kid by unplugging the computer or by waiting twenty minutes, un-installing the game and not letting them play it for two weeks isn't going to change the end result (your kid will hopefully get that there's a time and place to start a game) but does prevent you being a dick.
    The difference is huge. It is the difference between, "I can argue my way out of the rules (at least partially)", and "No means no, period." And it's certainly not for gamers somewhere in the ether to tell a parent which message they want to send.
    I don't think that's necessarily a devolution to stick to the point of 'hey we're people trying to play a game, maybe try to parent in a way that doesn't make your kid a problem for us'.
    I reiterate; if playing your online game is so SRS that children being children, and doing what children do, is going to completely ruin your experience, the easiest solution is to not play with children.

    Senna1 on
    CambiataBolthornmRahmaniRagnar DragonfyrePsychosmileyNecrox
  • AsharadAsharad Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    jwalk wrote: »

    AFFECT! the STATISTICS people! THE STATISTICS!

    WON'T ANYBODY THINK OF THE STATISTICS!

    Look, if my kid is playing COD or whatever and its time to eat, I will generally let him finish whatever match he is in because I know it's not that long of a time. That said, if he told me "I'll just be another half an hour...or more..." I'd tell him to turn it off and get upstairs. That's on him. I'll scold him for being a bad teammate and I hope the other players block him, or whatever, and if it happens regularly I'll just take the game away but I'm not going to get worked up about the stats in a pickup game.

    And that's what it is. The comparisons to organized sports don't work because organized sports are just that...organized. They are planned. They are scheduled. Playing LoL online is a pickup game. It's shooting basketball at the neighbors house or having a nerf gun war in the front yard.

    Edited to add: I get the annoyance. I love video games too. But from a parent's perspective this is just a non-issue. And unless LoL is different than every other online game ever, kids dropping because their parents make them eat dinner or go to bed is probably a very small factor in whatever the overall issues are.

    Asharad on
    GethDjiemCambiataPenumbraTwistedAkaiLinktmfoodlejoshofalltradesNiceguyeddie616AegeriTheDrifterTofystedethNibCromRagnar DragonfyrePsychosmileyBobbleNecrox
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Tycho's post is up
    Tycho wrote:
    I have described previously how the pool of people who write professionally about games don’t really overlap with my life. You can’t really get in trouble for that; most people can’t help being who they are. You gotta take people as they come. They have been alternately “fed” or “shocked” on this grotesque spherical laboratory simply for doing what came naturally to them at every juncture, and now they’re human fucking wreckage, like everyone else.

    My “fucking wreckage” is simply inflected differently. I don’t have beef with you until you start telling me how to do my shit, which is what The Open Letter To Parents Of League of Legends Players is about. I only know about it because the pool of people who write professionally about games told me it was reasonable, and - like most people without kids - they imagine themselves privy to some secret band of data that has somehow eluded actual parents. You don’t know shit. Or, what you know is shit. Take your pick.

    Anything in the piece about the length of the game, which is an odd length, is good for parents. That’s something they need to know. As a corollary, using this information to determine when a kid has time for a match, also good. Calls to “ground” young people who make poor choices in this regard is another conceptual realm in which we may find agreement. As sad as it may be, there are parents today who did not grow up nerds and so they don’t know how the most popular videogame on the planet Earth actually functions. But when you start talking about when I can and cannot set limits on behavior, or withdraw privileges, because of your Statz or because it might attract the ire of a community already legendary for its player abuse, you’re punching above your weight, kid.

    A-fucking-men.

    GaslightMuffinatronLinktmBolthornDjiemSilentRoughWaterRhesus PositivejoshofalltradesNiceguyeddie616A Dabble Of TheloniuspirateluigiTheDrifterorthancstoneTofystedethdarleysamRobonunKoopahTroopahAndy JoeArithon32PsychosmileyZilla360admanbBobbleSyphyrejjae2123Goose!Necrox
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    Reading that letter. Total avface. Even as a player of the games...goddamn.

    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • ArtereisArtereis Registered User regular
    I accept this birthday comic. Good show.

  • TwistedAkaiTwistedAkai Registered User new member
    Cambiata wrote: »
    That's why it's no different then pulling your son or daughter out of a little league game in the middle of it.

    It's actually not like that at all.

    Instead, it's like a child committing to be at a little league game without telling their parents, and then on the day of the game the child calls in saying they don't actually have a ride to the game or any equipment, because they didn't tell their parents they needed it. In that situation it is not "on the parent" to rush to the store to buy the needed equipment and then drive the child to the game, because if they don't they are "letting the other players down." Instead it was on the child to have explained this to the parent in advance, and maybe the answer is "You won't be able to go to those games because we are at church at the times when the games happen," or what have you.

    The learning that needs to go on here is not, "child gets whatever they want no matter how unreasonable, because there are 9 other people involved!" Teaching the child that if other people are involved they can get away with breaking all the rules is not a good lesson in respect for other people at all, it's a lesson in using other people to manipulate your way into whatever you want.

    Frankly I'm appalled that this is the all important lesson that internet people think that parents need to know about, respecting other people's "stats", a thing that those people won't remember or care about in 5 years. When this could have been a post about how not to be a toxic bully online, and how parents should pay attention what kind of behavior kids are exhibiting online.

    I want to thank you for this post. I am an adult gamer with no kids, and was struggling to decide which way I wanted to lean on this. Reading through this thread and looking at various arguments for either side, I found myself agreeing in part with both. This post presented exactly the analogy I needed to find the exact perspective I can agree with. If a child starts a game, without communicating with their parents that they intend to and it would likely take at least 30 minutes, and could take up to a full hour, then the burden of responsibility is entirely upon the child, not the parent, when the child is pulled from the game. One may say the child committed time, but with an approaching bedtime or dinner (in the case of families that do regularly eat together) it was not time the child had to commit. The only responsibility the parent bears is their failure to teach their child to understand their commitments, to communicate when potential commitments might conflict, and to avoid making commitments that may interfere with preexisting commitments.

    The adult equivalent of this would be telling a friend you'll come hang out for an hour, when you know you'll have to leave for a doctor's appointment half an hour after you would arrive. If you choose to stay, it will not be your doctor's fault you are charged a fee for not showing up, and your friend should not blame your doctor if you leave.

    When two commitments come to clash, one or the other must be dropped. Ultimately, most League of Legends games (including non-professional ranked) falls into the area of entertainment, or non-binding commitment to a stranger, with dinner or bedtime falling into the area of necessity of life, or non-binding commitment to family. For the potential argument of playing with friends, if it is so important to you that your friends not leave in the middle of a game, then some amount of responsibility is on you to ensure they understand how you feel, and to ask the simplest question before you start: "Do you have enough time for a full game?"

    Commander ZoomNiceguyeddie616Zilla360Necrox
  • jwalkjwalk Registered User regular
    that's another good point.

    there are so many ways... SO many ways that other players can annoy you or ruin your online game (and your precious Statz!), that leaving in the middle of a match barely ranks in the top 10.

    #1 being a dick
    #2 being a clueless n00b
    #3 killing the hostages
    #4 looting the non-trade-able Epic Legendary Paladin Sword of +1000 L33tness on their Warlock.
    #5 trying to be on the top of the DPS charts instead of (class role here)
    #6 team killing
    #7 forgetting to heal
    #8 camping
    etc etc etc

    really, most of the above people, shit it would be WELCOMED if they just AFK'ed in the middle of the round

    Cambiata
  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    Obviously, the solution is to send them to bed and take over playing for them. Even if you're terrible at the game. Especially if you're terrible at the game. Make sure to let them know how it went when you're done.

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  • November FifthNovember Fifth Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Eh, I think the letter is placing too much responsibility on the parent for micromanaging the time of a 12-18 year old.

    When I was that age, my time was essentially my own as long as my grades were fine, and I did my chores.

    Thinking about parents trying to juggle a full time job, paying bills, putting meals on the table, keeping the kids off porn sites, etc. I don't see how the outcome of someone's LoL game rates any consideration at all.

    Your ELO isn't that important. It just isn't.

    November Fifth on
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  • LinktmLinktm Registered User regular
    Just to follow-up on a lot of excellent points being made here:

    1. Tycho's News Post is something I'm in full agreement here, although I still think it's worth just letting your kid finish his game and then punishing him afterwards as opposed to punishing him and 9 other people (I guess depending on the urgency of whatever it is that's happening in real life, like dinner is still going to be there when you're done with the match. Bedtimes or other life event appointments probably shouldn't be skipped or delayed because that fucks with things later.) I definitely think banning/punishment/whatever is a better penalty than simply turning off your game. There needs to be way more than just that.

    2. I think the stats are a general non-issue of it all. Dropping a rank or a league or whatever because some kid AFKed because he sucks at being considerate is shit icing on a shit cake at that point. Not only is my free time being spent poorly because of some kid, but I'm also being penalized because of some kid. But, I think the bigger problem is my recreational time being ruined by some kid whose parent doesn't properly understand how the game is played and how to enforce ground rules (and time management) for playing said game. Also, yes, I play League of Legends and other MOBA type games to have fun and relax. I don't play competitively, if people start raging over a Non-Ranked match they clearly have mixed priorities in life.

    3. If you're going to play ranked, you should probably not PUG it and instead have some sort of reliable team. I realize not everybody has 4 other friends to play with (reminds me of that Crystal Chronicles comic PA made back in the day) so they might have to deal with PUGs, and that just sucks, but... hey, maybe cruise forums, community boards, reddit, whatever you need to do to find other people to play with to avoid unreliable people? I don't know many dependable people with parental appointed bedtimes, do you?


    Those points aside...

    I'm going to plug Heroes of the Storm for a second. I think they solved some of these odd problems. First off, the matches go from 10 - 30 minutes, usually 20 tops unless it's a very close match, then it can drag on for 30 or super rarely 40 I've noticed. The entire game is built on an escalating time mechanic built to ensure the matches are quick. The other AMAZING thing they do is that when somebody AFKs or quits or whatever that they're replaced by an AI. The AI might be dumb as a brick, but you can semi-control or "tell" that AI what to do, so while they're not as great as a human player it's still better than being in a 4v5 match. I don't think it's going to outperform League's popularity anytime soon, but it can DEFINITELY be an alternative for people who either have issues with time management or poor experiences in PUGs.

    Other Solutions?

    So, I don't know enough about PRO League play, but why is it so far outside the realm of possibilities to NOT penalize people on a losing team if somebody goes AFK? Maybe it could be exploited somehow, but I figure it would work like this "Winning Team gets their stats points increase, Losing Team gets some sort of "neutral" mark on their stats like a 'draw' or 'incomplete' with no point loss or gain, and the AFK person gets a Loss as well as a point decrease if they don't return to the match within 5 minutes of disconnecting/AFKing/whatever." In this Scenario only the person hurting everyone else is penalized, everyone else either benefits from it or at worst has wasted a bit of their free time. Maybe even have matches where someone is AFK for 5 - 10 minutes or whatever instantly end so the amount of free time wasted is kept to a minimum.

    Puddingpie
  • dardordardor Registered User regular
    You tell them Tycho!

    I'll take a potato chip and eat it!
  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    Your ELO isn't that important. It just isn't.

    I would go further and say that not only is ELO not *that* important, but ELO is not important. At all.

    CambiataSilentRoughWaterRhesus Positive
  • Kairos615Kairos615 Registered User regular
    This reminds me a bit of a quote from some book, I don't recall which one:
    "I have heard about a lecturer who built up a great reputation as an expert on child education, though he had never married himself. The title of his lectures was 'Ten Commandments for Parents.' Then he met the girl of his dreams, married her, and became a father. Shortly thereafter he changed the title of his talk to 'Ten Hints for Parents.' After his second child, the title changed to 'A Few Suggestions for Parents.' When his third child arrived he quit lecturing altogether."

    SilentRoughWaterCambiataNiceguyeddie616RobonunPsychosmiley
  • SilentRoughWaterSilentRoughWater Registered User regular
    I've been a gamer a long time. I've been swept up into all kinds of un-pausible online games like MMOs and team based shooters. I still can't fathom taking the step to be extra super considerate to those random players if my child needed to stop for dinner, or any other reason. Parents have too much other shit to worry about! God damn.

    That being said if I was watching my son play a game in the future and he was obviously being a goose (teamkilling, being profane, etc) I would be interested in taking steps to correct that behavior.

    sig.php?user=BrokenBrik

    Wii U NNID: TJandSam Steam: BrokenBrik
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    I dunno what to think.
    I used to play a game, Puzzle Pirates, where co-op play was a big (but not the only) part. And sometimes people would have to leave in the middle of a pillage, due to RL stuff.
    I almost never minded the adults leaving, 'cause it was usually for a good reason. But there were times when some kid (tween) would bail, after joining a session that an adult would have known would run over their meal/bedtime, but the kid either didn't think or didn't care. Annoying, but what can you do? Kids, their heads don't work quite right, and won't for years (if ever).
    At no point in the above did I blame, or even really think of, the parents. I had no connection to them.
    Looking back, I think that my default assumption was that this was just one more thing that happens, nothing to be done about it, that (many) kids are simply incapable of thinking ahead that far, and grumble but shrug and eventually let it go. (As an adult gamer, frankly, I would have preferred that they not play the game at all.)

    Commander Zoom on
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    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    Psychosmiley
  • Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    quitgettingmadatvideogames.gif

    The comic is funny. The open letter is hilarious.

    Jam Warrior on
    MhCw7nZ.gif
    CambiataTheCanManNiceguyeddie616Ragnar DragonfyreZilla360
  • ChiselphaneChiselphane Registered User regular
    So this was the topic that finally made me create an account so I could comment on it. I am a 42 year old parent of 3 kids who has been gaming since home Pong consoles and this letter is one of the worst things I've ever seen in gaming culture. This week, anyways.

    Anyone who thinks game stats are more important than parenting is a child themselves, whether it be chronologically or developmentally. But it's the same old story, children think they know everything until they're old enough to realize how little they knew. I remember as a teenager turning down time with my father because I was screwing around on BBSes etc (and talk about disruptive gameplay, there's no pain like being 99% finished with your download at 300 baud just to get disconnected because you forgot to disable call waiting). He died a few years ago, and I would give any amount of 'stats' to have that time back to do over differently.

    Ragnar DragonfyrePsychosmiley
  • Mike FehlauerMike Fehlauer Registered User regular
    I'm fascinated by the responses, here. I'm not a League player, but I am a parent. And my response to the Open Letter was 50% "you're adorable" and 50% "this person seems to have an unhealthy level of investment in this pastime."

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  • YesIAmThatGuyYesIAmThatGuy Registered User new member
    God help me for some reason this week I've been posting in random threads.

    I disagree with the original post on the principle that I want my child to learn that their decisions DO affect other people.

    I loathe the pain my child goes through when they make poor decisions but the best time for people to learn how to be a responsible adult is during childhood. This is because the consequences for poor decisions as a child are very minor compared to adult decisions.

    The only way people learn to change is through practice. Only by setting boundaries and enforcing consequences based on your child's decisions will they learn HOW to make good decisions.

    Sometimes I find my child has made a poor decision and usually something like the following happens. Fortunately my kids are smart... but they have a lot attitude also. We like to call our daughter the queen of dirty looks.

    GentleGrab: Hey its 10, why are you still on your comp?
    MiniGrab: sorry trying to carry these scrubs but my team won't group mid.

    GentleGrab: hmm well its time to log off...
    MiniGrab: BUT DAD I NEED THIS FOR MY PROMO

    GentleGrab: You're the one that started playing the game, that wasn't my decision. What could have you done differently?
    MiniGrab: ...FYI I hate you.

    GentleGrab: that doesnt sound like a solution to your problem
    MiniGrab: Well I 1v5'ed and died in our jungle. We might have been able to end it early if I didn't.

    GentleGrab: OK, that's one approach. What else?
    MiniGrab: Games usually take less than 50 min... so in the future I shouldn't start games this close to bed time.

    GentleGrab: that definitely sounds like something that would keep you from quitting games early.
    MiniGrab: well can you leave now so I can at least sleep since I can't play

    GentleGrab: love you gnight.
    MiniGrab via text the next day love you too dad... but stop playing my destiny account or I'll start deleting important files from your computer

    I sincerely hope my kids make many,many SMALL poor decisions a long the way so that when they reach the time of their lives when the decisions they make matter they will have enough practice to not ruin their or other peoples lives.

    My sister was forcefully prevented from getting in a car that ended up wrapped around a tree when she was a teenager. Several of her friends died. I hope that when my kids get to that point of their life they'll use their brains and avoid things like that. But that won't happen without me preparing them every chance I get. If a few lost games or promo series help them get there then it was worth it.

    My kids know I discipline them out of love and I do actually want them to be happy. That's the key.

    TwistedAkaiCommander ZoomTheDrifterPsychosmileyZilla360Bobblejjae2123
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