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Cities: Skylines 2 Now Available

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    MvrckMvrck Dwarven MountainhomeRegistered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Mvrck wrote: »
    I think people are a little rosy on how CS1 was at launch. I very specifically remember the rolling death waves that would spiral and wreck cities.

    CS1 also didn't have it's decade plus of community and dlc content to pad it out. Cities looked very samey, mass transit was a *mess* to implement and manage, and traffic was...difficult at best.

    This isn't to say CS2 is forgiven for its sins, but like...it's honestly still probably a superior product to CS1 at release.

    I understand why people look fondly at CS1, in spite of its shortcomings. EA had just really screwed up Sim City, and here City Skylines 1 came out of nowhere, the scrappy underdog that gave people the Sim City they actually wanted. It earned a lot of goodwill that way.

    But City Skylines isn't the scrappy underdog any more. Now City Skylines is the Sim City game. So people's expectations are a bit higher.

    Also CS1 is right there. People expect sequels to be better, not "We're starting the patch/DLC train all over again".

    My point was more people seemed to be expecting a bugless/issueless game, when that has never really been the case for Colossal. Which, again, doesn't excuse things like a lackluster showing of assets, map themes, etc, but it should put some things in slight perspective. A game being a bit buggy and having long standing simulation issues is pretty much par for the course for CO as developers. Even in the CS1 playthroughs I was doing right before launch of 2, I had a half dozen plus "rebalancer" style mods installed to address simulation and engine issues.

    They absolutely should have leaned into art asset production if they knew they were having performance issues and/or weren't going to hit their mod support release date. That is one area where you can actually ramp and parallelize work to some degree. A steady drip feed of content would probably have left people in a more forgiving state than just leaving folks hanging for nearly six months and then a single lackluster DLC pack.

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    FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited March 27
    Yeah the response to CS2 relative to 1 definitely has a lot of layers.

    People absolutely wanted a "good guy" after SimCity 2013. That's part of it. Small indie dev, Paradox's reputation was still good at the time, good will abounds.

    CS1 didn't just run terribly either. Having a game that performs really poorly always seems to exaggerate negative reception. Most of the initial negativity towards CS2 was "this is a technical disaster", not really the sim layer issues.

    Everything I've seen with the sim of 2 though....is just a lot more dire than the sim of 1 was at launch. Not asking for bugless or perfect, or trying to make it seem like 1 was, but when you have the people who have played 2 tons putting out videos saying basically "I still have no idea how the underlying sim works, or if it's working at all because of how obtuse the results I get from my actions are" then I think you have dire problems:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyPwbOEG0Lc

    Like at launch they were incredibly fudging the numbers, and it sounds like they still are to a large degree. Whether it's a simulation at all is the concern, and vanilla CS1 never felt quite that busted and certainly wasn't reacted to as if it was. I don't think that's just a "our standards are higher from 9 years of DLC and mods" thing -- it's just a fundamentally more broken game than CS1, acknowledging that CS1 was far from perfect in its simulation/model.

    Fiatil on
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    That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    What a fucking rug-pull Cities Skylines 2 turned out to be. I'm glad the Youtubers were able to convey that message (without coming out and just saying it) before release. I would be pissed if I'd actually bought it. Here we are 6 months from release and the game is still a mess. A proprietary modding system isn't going to save the game. DLC isn't going to save it either.

    Paradox should have looked at what happened with Warhammer 3 and not tried to do the exact same thing. I think we have reached a point where the hardcore PC gaming crowd isn't going to put up with this kind of bullshit anymore. If they had taken Cities Skylines 1, baked in all the DLC and a host of mods, and updated the engine to the latest version of Unity, I think most people would have been satisfied paying $50. Instead they went back to the drawing board and created a brand-new "AAA game" from the ground up. No one asked for this. No one wanted this. This isn't what attracted people to the first game and certainty wasn't what kept people coming back.

    The last couple of months have shown us that Paradox Interactive has completed their enshitification phase and is now just another cash-grab developer.

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    Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    I think you can get the original game for about $400 right now. They were always a cash grab studio.

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    CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    I bought base CS shortly after the After Dark update and I thought it was basically a complete game, six months after release (and honestly I think most of the DLC adds mechanics that aren't actually good). I really believe most of the CS2 simulation code is TODO blocks and they can't fix it now without stopping development on everything else for a couple years. So, it's not going to happen. I expect Paradox to dissolve CO in 5 years.

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    mastertheheromasterthehero Professional Video Editor & Book Author Registered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Instead they went back to the drawing board and created a brand-new "AAA game" from the ground up. No one asked for this. No one wanted this.

    So, I did watch the making of documentary and there were important factors that led to redoing the engine. I do want to clarify that most game companies refuse to swap out engines. If an engine is proprietary (RAGE for GTA, Frostbite for Battlefield) studios are not going to want to swap it out for Unreal 5. Helldivers 2 is made on an engine that's no longer being supported but the studio knows that engine and they're not interested in learning new tools. (Which is kind of a shame because it's still having major technical issues that make the game frustrating to play.)

    When CO made the decision to rebuild the game engine this was not done lightly. According to the dev team, there were certain limitations built into the source code that couldn't be easily removed. They didn't like that their code was hacked together so they wanted to rebuild a better and cleaner engine. One of the results of this is the ability for users to create mods without the mods breaking with each engine update.

    Unfortunately, as CO quickly found out. You can't just rebuild code from your previous engine and make it all brand new and shiny. There are some drawbacks to doing this, all of which we have become witness to with the land value bugs and bizarre pathfinding issues. They made the game look prettier and improved some functionality like the road design tool, but it also lost several important mechanics from the original game. Not having TMPPE really sucks in CS 2.

    The reality is, game development is hard. You can start off with good intentions but there's a reason why people leave "hacked" code alone. Sometimes, no matter how ugly it is, it just works and needs to be left alone.

    I personally like that with the new code revamp they were able to add seasons, a better road tool, improved graphics, and more options to control the build of your city. Unfortunately, it clearly still needs a lot of work and Paradox made a big mistake forcing these guys to release the game in the state it was. It's obvious they're going to be pushing CO to make paid DLC and with that paid DLC CO will have to squeeze in the technical fixes between each release. It's a shame, but this is what happens when your studio is not privately owned.

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    DacDac Registered User regular
    CS2 reminds me a lot of KSP2, where the original was an unexpected hit and had a lot of love from fans and development from the studio and also modders.... Then the sequel takes way too long to come out, releases incomplete, with less features than the original, leading to dampened community positivity so the modding scene - if it's even as easy to mod as the original - never takes off.

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    MvrckMvrck Dwarven MountainhomeRegistered User regular
    Speaking of modding, the only big mod that I haven't found replicated in the Paradox workshop at this point is the Traffic Light Enhancements mod. And there are some new ones that never made it to Thunderstore before, like placing water features, and more network tools (being able to create pedestrian areas so you can populate custom "parks", and restrict them walking in certain other areas, place invisible taxi stands, train stops, etc).

    It absolutely still needs support for custom assets, but in terms of functionality, it's honestly an improvement over Steam with being in game and the playlists for managing mods. Right now I've got "holding" playlists set up based off the mod type (Gameplay, Content, UI, Maps) and add mods to those lists as I find them. Then I have a "Currently Using" playlist, which I add things to from my library. It's really smooth and seamless, and I can definitely see myself maintaining different sets of mods based off what kind of cities I'm playing in the future. Trying to do the same through steam was a major pain in the ass.

    Still needing to run Thunderstore to do custom lanes definitely sucks, and it's no where near as complete as TMPE was yet (Roundabouts are completely unsupported for example, and a major pain point in the current traffic simulation). Hopefully we get a Paradox Workshop equivalent/improvement soon. It's the last real building block I think is missing to bring 2 up to the standards of 1 gameplay wise with mods.

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    InfamyDeferredInfamyDeferred Registered User regular
    I don't envy developers these days. They basically get to choose between continuous DLC forever (and the core doesn't get better), or asset-reuse sequels (which sometimes get branded as lazy cash grabs, or "This should have been a DLC" claims), or they roll the dice on a full fresh start (and have to compete against a decade plus of polish on the original). Compounded by games being more complex than ever, publishers being stingier on funding than ever, and players having less purchasing power than ever (and so every disappointing purchase stings more than ever)...

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    SatsumomoSatsumomo Rated PG! Registered User regular
    In the case of KSP2, I remember what we most wanted out of that sequel was an engine that would overcome the limitations of the first game's, so it wasn't necessarily bad if the game was barebones compared to KSP1 + mods.

    But then the sequel had even more limitations than the first, so we were all wondering what the point of it was at all, other than a cashgrab by the publisher who had a completely different studio build the sequel.

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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    ksp2 can almost be forgiven because it is early access and they have a project plan that IS much more ambitious than ksp1.. (whether or not they get there is a different matter entirely)

    but with skylines 2 there was no such caveat. it was and is sold as a complete game that is so obviously not complete at all

    someone posted a city they made to reddit last night... with 300k citizens, from my eye it doesn't even look like it fills the whole map... and on his high end system he says that in-game minutes last longer than real minutes

    this is a game that supposed to run on a PS5. lol.

    unless they have the most miraculous comeback of all time there's no way this game is going to survive

    my asks are pretty small, i feel, and even they feel like remote possibilities at this point

    1) make the rent thing make any sense at all, including fixing the children living alone bug
    2) make the economy of industry, particularly specialty industry, make any sense at all.... its currently an infinite money glitch even if you have zero industrial infrastructure... why bother making a cargo port if all this shit gives you 40 million dollars an hour anyway?
    3) fix parking
    4) fix service vehicles basically not working, particularly after you get helicopters

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    MvrckMvrck Dwarven MountainhomeRegistered User regular
    edited April 17
    So apparently a couple different groups have started to crack how to get custom assets working as mods. Nothing in a release state yet, but expect some movement on that in the coming weeks.

    An example shown off of a combined mixed use building with integrated fire house:
    image.png?ex=6632a6a4&is=662031a4&hm=30ac0ec269176206226b0209ec7e15432a428741365b404dde29acb046d70494&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=815&height=458

    Mvrck on
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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    CO announced they are refunding the beach DLC, the console release is delayed basically indefinitely, and all other DLC is evidently postponed until the end of 2024 at the earliest

    the implication of their post is that the game is so broken they had to hire outside consultants to come in and try and unfuck it, with a best-case scenario of un-fuckening in October 2024

    im troubled by a pattern i have observed where these game studious are masters of blogging and youtube videos but evidently forgot the part where they had to make a video game that works

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    MvrckMvrck Dwarven MountainhomeRegistered User regular
    edited April 18
    Apparently some things rolling faster than expected:

    https://mods.paradoxplaza.com/mods/78908/Windows

    A supposedly somewhat working new road types mod. I'll be trying it out later, will report on how well it functions.

    Edit:

    So, highlight is definitely the nice 1u Pedestrian road. It was a little buggy to get it loaded, I wound up moving the asset importer to the top of my load order list and the street pack all the way to the bottom and that finally got it working. Otherwise it would error out and not load any roads (and also not load the corresponding power/sewer/water). But running in game it seems fine, all the different road types seem to be used. I haven't messed around too much with routing traffic with the double divided streets yet, but with the TLE lane tools I can see them being pretty nice for making pseudo highways in the city without the associated drawbacks.

    Double Edit: Screenshot of the 1u Pedestrian streets in action
    wYoFDWi.jpg

    Mvrck on
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    FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    Yeah if you look at any of the videos that analyze the simulation and what it is/isn't doing....it was just unfortunately obvious that this isn't something they're going to fix in a few patches.

    Step 1 is acknowledging how truly, truly bad it is. I think they finally got there. They danced around it and issued apologies that included "but" in there entirely too often, and it's good to see they finally owned up to the mess that it is now.

    Pre-order DLC sales or not, Paradox or not, you just can't start releasing incredibly overpriced DLC with like 10 new assets when your game is in such a crazy state.

    I sincerely hope they can get it fixed up, but it's a "check back in 1-2 years" thing for me.

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    mastertheheromasterthehero Professional Video Editor & Book Author Registered User regular
    Yeah, I'm not sure why it took them so long to hit the point of "We released it too early." The beach front property DLC was an embarrassment and I found myself unable to use it because... I HAVE NO LOW DENSITY DEMAND!

    They are in the shit and now's the time where they're going to find out if they can pull a comeback like No Man's Sky or utterly fail. I sincerely hope they succeed but it seems like they've got their work cut out for them.

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    That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    It just keeps getting worse for CS2. Their attempt to remove the worst rated DLC in Steam history broke the game for anyone who was using the new assets. They're saying it could take weeks to fix. So here we are, 6 months after release, the game is still fundamentally broken, and getting worse with every update.

    I'm left to wonder if they only have a few people working on the game at this point. CS2 may go down as one of the biggest blinders in gaming history. It was pushed as a AAA title but obviously doesn't even have a level of support that a solo dev can provide.

    I'm just sitting here waiting for the inevitable announcement that development has ended (ala Star Trek: Infinite) and Colossal Order has been folded into another Paradox studio.


    https://www.pcgamesn.com/cities-skylines-2/missing-assets-bug

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    FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited April 27
    Yeah that's insane. They were so desperate to scrub all evidence of that DLC that they broke saves for 2 weeks.....

    Could have easily just made it free, not jacked with the steam listing, and NOT break the game. But nope, gotta scrub it from steam and pretend it never happened.

    Fiatil on
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    WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    That's... wow. OK.

    Part of me can't believe CS2 is this mismanaged. But apparently it is.

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    SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    edited April 27
    When you said it broke the game, I thought you meant saves were broken and wouldn't load at all due to the missing assets. Existing saves work, it's just the affected buildings appear as grey blocks for some people, not all, and the new zoning is wrong since they haven't readded it to the base game yet. Visually annoying for anyone affected, but at this point taking some extra time to verify a fix instead of rushing something out that might screw the game up even worse is probably the right call.

    SiliconStew on
    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
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