Strategy games need some randomess or they just become puzzle games.
Randomness in the way enemies move or behave, but not in the numbers, fuck that
That's the biggest reason why I have Blitzball so goddamned much, because the numbers they throw up on the screen have no fucking correlation to the numbers that actually get dealt in any encounter. Oh I have 7 HP and you hit for 4? Nope! You somehow hit me for 9 instead. Fuck randomness in stats.
Randomness in the numbers, ie in the combat results, is like, one of the standard things in nearly every strategy and tactics games ever made though. If the combat results are fixed then planning becomes a number puzzle more or less.
And that's what Fire Emblem should be IMO, a tactical number puzzle. In Shining Force, or FFT, or any of your other tactical RPGs, absolutely, crits are fine--there's no lasting punishment for losing a unit. Even XCOM, where death is permanent, but units are replaceable, making death just another expense. But Fire Emblem expects perfection and already demands precise planning--don't introduce a mechanic that punishes me despite playing like I'm supposed to.
You can plan for and mitigate the effects of crits, it's just part of the games strategy.
On Normal, few enemies can crit your high skill units at all, and those that can absolutely canNOT one shot your beefier, more defensive units.
In any given situation where you don't know a perfect solution, the game is as much about risk management as it is tactics. "Ok, this unit has a 10% chance to crit Chrom for 18 damage, and so do the surrounding two enemies. assuming they all hit in their attacks they'll take off 30 health with a crit, which will kill him. But if I switch out Vaike for Kellam or Frederick in the pair up, base damage drops to 1 instead of 6, so a crit only does 3. Or I could put Chrom in range of only 1 of the enemies so he can't take more than 18 damage on this turn, and Lissa can heal him while he kills the enemy."
etc.
There are ways to deal with it in every situation, you just have to be aware of your options and be willing to move units around to accommodate the needs of the given fight
This is all fine
I still have no interest in redoing an hour of game because of a 10% chance crit
You can plan for and mitigate the effects of crits, it's just part of the games strategy.
On Normal, few enemies can crit your high skill units at all, and those that can absolutely canNOT one shot your beefier, more defensive units.
In any given situation where you don't know a perfect solution, the game is as much about risk management as it is tactics. "Ok, this unit has a 10% chance to crit Chrom for 18 damage, and so do the surrounding two enemies. assuming they all hit in their attacks they'll take off 30 health with a crit, which will kill him. But if I switch out Vaike for Kellam or Frederick in the pair up, base damage drops to 1 instead of 6, so a crit only does 3. Or I could put Chrom in range of only 1 of the enemies so he can't take more than 18 damage on this turn, and Lissa can heal him while he kills the enemy."
etc.
There are ways to deal with it in every situation, you just have to be aware of your options and be willing to move units around to accommodate the needs of the given fight
I don't really think there is any reasonable way to prepare for crits
I understand what you're saying, but if you act as if every hit will be a crit then your playstyle will be so ludicrously, insanely defensive that, for me, it would not be any fun
I have fun in the normal combat of FE but crits basically sucked every iota of fun out of the game for me until I turned off permadeath, so I hope they can be turned off in the next game, because for me they very very nearly made me stop playing the game
I'm just saying it is absolutely possible to make crits a non threat. Triple of minimal damage still isn't much
This is probably true, but if you want to properly take crits into account, it significantly reduces your unit placement options and adds a lot of complexity to your planning. Which is fine, but that's more investment in the game than I can afford. Which is why I agree with other people who say crits should be toggleable. I'd turn of crits before permadeath, for sure.
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
edited March 2015
I like crits, I get to see a cool animation when I do them and they're so rarely a thing the enemy has a chance of doing that working around them is like a little rush of something different
It's one of the few ways the game can smack you down when you've been getting cocky or reckless
All that aside though I would be incredibly surprised if they ever included the option of turning crits off
You know I really can't think of anything that uses RPG mechanics and doesn't include crits
I like looking at the stats/weapons of all the enemies and planning accordingly so crits stopped being a problem for me. Anyone with a high crit rate is either going to go up against a beefy tank or get sniped before they can do anything.
But yeah, I can see why not everyone likes to play that way.
I will admit that juggling crits with everything else does add another layer of complexity so that playing at speed requires more thought
But I love that stuff. Fire Emblem is all about out maneuvering your enemy, and I love juggling those pieces. Crits aren't even a particularly big element to me. weaknesses are much, much worse, since they triple weapon power, which can be way more powerful than a crit. Mind your pegasi
Granted I agree they need a no permadeath option for folks
I just contest the idea that crits can't be dealt with. They can
Like, Crits should be a difficulty level. There should be the existing Easy, a "Normal" that's just like "Hard" but without crits (because it's still challenging, just taking out that extra layer of planning), and then the existing Hard. Or just let you create your own difficulty by making all the different elements into toggles.
I will admit that juggling crits with everything else does add another layer of complexity so that playing at speed requires more thought
But I love that stuff. Fire Emblem is all about out maneuvering your enemy, and I love juggling those pieces. Crits aren't even a particularly big element to me. weaknesses are much, much worse, since they triple weapon power, which can be way more powerful than a crit. Mind your pegasi
Granted I agree they need a no permadeath option for folks
I just contest the idea that crits can't be dealt with. They can
And I don't agree and that's ok!
I think you're probably right that turning them off won't be an option, which means I'll just stick with no permadeath, which is unfortunate, but at least I'll still get to play the game
I will admit that juggling crits with everything else does add another layer of complexity so that playing at speed requires more thought
But I love that stuff. Fire Emblem is all about out maneuvering your enemy, and I love juggling those pieces. Crits aren't even a particularly big element to me. weaknesses are much, much worse, since they triple weapon power, which can be way more powerful than a crit. Mind your pegasi
Granted I agree they need a no permadeath option for folks
I just contest the idea that crits can't be dealt with. They can
And I don't agree and that's ok!
I think you're probably right that turning them off won't be an option, which means I'll just stick with no permadeath, which is unfortunate, but at least I'll still get to play the game
Dude, this seems silly to argue with such finality. I mean, Wyborn wouldn't be saying "crits can be dealt with" unless he'd actually, you know, dealt with them. Clearly it's possible, since he doesn't have an issue. Saying "no they can't" seems like a weird hardline stance to take, since it's basically saying "no, your experience is invalid". You not wanting or feeling unable to personally deal with them is fine. Saying it's not possible is reductive.
I will admit that juggling crits with everything else does add another layer of complexity so that playing at speed requires more thought
But I love that stuff. Fire Emblem is all about out maneuvering your enemy, and I love juggling those pieces. Crits aren't even a particularly big element to me. weaknesses are much, much worse, since they triple weapon power, which can be way more powerful than a crit. Mind your pegasi
Granted I agree they need a no permadeath option for folks
I just contest the idea that crits can't be dealt with. They can
And I don't agree and that's ok!
I think you're probably right that turning them off won't be an option, which means I'll just stick with no permadeath, which is unfortunate, but at least I'll still get to play the game
Dude, this seems silly to argue with such finality. I mean, Wyborn wouldn't be saying "crits can be dealt with" unless he'd actually, you know, dealt with them. Clearly it's possible, since he doesn't have an issue. Saying "no they can't" seems like a weird hardline stance to take, since it's basically saying "no, your experience is invalid". You not wanting or feeling unable to personally deal with them is fine. Saying it's not possible is reductive.
I don't agree that they can be dealt with with any level of reasonability, no
Never moving anyone within range of an enemy that could crit them to death ever is, to me, untenable
if Wyborn finds that doable that's cool but its not for me, so I don't think they can be dealt with in my experience, no
I remember little bits and pieces, but no whole parts
Like for example I know once I go up this tower to the mirror there's going to be a really long cutscene about Ganondorf
And the next dungeon is the snow one with the evil Yeti wife, which is where I stopped playing originally
But I don't remember anything about the village or Castle Town or that the one girl loses her memory or you get the whole Fused Shadow and then Zant IMMEDIATELY shows up to take it
What I'm learning is that none of the 3D Zeldas are bad, or even just okay
I remember little bits and pieces, but no whole parts
Like for example I know once I go up this tower to the mirror there's going to be a really long cutscene about Ganondorf
And the next dungeon is the snow one with the evil Yeti wife, which is where I stopped playing originally
But I don't remember anything about the village or Castle Town or that the one girl loses her memory or you get the whole Fused Shadow and then Zant IMMEDIATELY shows up to take it
What I'm learning is that none of the 3D Zeldas are bad, or even just okay
I remember little bits and pieces, but no whole parts
Like for example I know once I go up this tower to the mirror there's going to be a really long cutscene about Ganondorf
And the next dungeon is the snow one with the evil Yeti wife, which is where I stopped playing originally
But I don't remember anything about the village or Castle Town or that the one girl loses her memory or you get the whole Fused Shadow and then Zant IMMEDIATELY shows up to take it
What I'm learning is that none of the 3D Zeldas are bad, or even just okay
So you've never gotten to the sky temple
You're in for a treat
provided you aren't scared of heights
I find it funny-ish that Mr G gave up on TP the same point I did originally.
The friend that convinced me to finish it talked up the sky temple and the final boss. He might have contributed to me finding the end game so lackluster.
I remember little bits and pieces, but no whole parts
Like for example I know once I go up this tower to the mirror there's going to be a really long cutscene about Ganondorf
And the next dungeon is the snow one with the evil Yeti wife, which is where I stopped playing originally
But I don't remember anything about the village or Castle Town or that the one girl loses her memory or you get the whole Fused Shadow and then Zant IMMEDIATELY shows up to take it
What I'm learning is that none of the 3D Zeldas are bad, or even just okay
So you've never gotten to the sky temple
You're in for a treat
provided you aren't scared of heights
I find it funny-ish that Mr G gave up on TP the same point I did originally.
The friend that convinced me to finish it talked up the sky temple and the final boss. He might have contributed to me finding the end game so lackluster.
I remember little bits and pieces, but no whole parts
Like for example I know once I go up this tower to the mirror there's going to be a really long cutscene about Ganondorf
And the next dungeon is the snow one with the evil Yeti wife, which is where I stopped playing originally
But I don't remember anything about the village or Castle Town or that the one girl loses her memory or you get the whole Fused Shadow and then Zant IMMEDIATELY shows up to take it
What I'm learning is that none of the 3D Zeldas are bad, or even just okay
So you've never gotten to the sky temple
You're in for a treat
provided you aren't scared of heights
I find it funny-ish that Mr G gave up on TP the same point I did originally.
The friend that convinced me to finish it talked up the sky temple and the final boss. He might have contributed to me finding the end game so lackluster.
Both of those things are great
I disagree. The entire game felt meh to me. The game alternated between spectacle and substance but never managed both at once.
It wasn't a bad game, but the only reason I'll ever replay it is because I want to give it another chance, not because I enjoyed it the first time.
I'm probably not going to do it this year though. Between MM and Zelda WiiU, I don't want to be Zelda'd out when I play it or ZeldaU.
fire emblem crits are absolutely avoidable beyond like, maybe the first few levels where you have little in the way of options
you just treat that 1% chance of death like it's 100%. Like any tactics game, you want to leave the dice out of things as much as possible, because they'll bite you.
put yourself in situations where you are actually numerically, perfectly safe. This is possible! without grinding! There are classes specifically designed to weather both physical and magic attacks, with high defense or resistance.
you have access to all the numbers. When you see a swordmaster or berserker with high skill you shoot him dead before he can draw
Clawshots seem to make more sense than hookshots. Actual grapple hooks. Instead of a blade that impales onto things and would seem difficult to remove or not embed as well.
In 2D Zeldas I use the Boomerang or Hookshot as much as humanly possible. I especially like the portable ones, where you can straight up replace your sword with them.
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Like if it was just a little extra damage on top then sure bring em on
But it is a ridiculous amount that can one shot units out of nowhere
And that's what Fire Emblem should be IMO, a tactical number puzzle. In Shining Force, or FFT, or any of your other tactical RPGs, absolutely, crits are fine--there's no lasting punishment for losing a unit. Even XCOM, where death is permanent, but units are replaceable, making death just another expense. But Fire Emblem expects perfection and already demands precise planning--don't introduce a mechanic that punishes me despite playing like I'm supposed to.
This is all fine
I still have no interest in redoing an hour of game because of a 10% chance crit
I'm just saying it is absolutely possible to make crits a non threat. Triple of minimal damage still isn't much
I don't really think there is any reasonable way to prepare for crits
I understand what you're saying, but if you act as if every hit will be a crit then your playstyle will be so ludicrously, insanely defensive that, for me, it would not be any fun
I have fun in the normal combat of FE but crits basically sucked every iota of fun out of the game for me until I turned off permadeath, so I hope they can be turned off in the next game, because for me they very very nearly made me stop playing the game
I'm telling Chincy to get good
Bagel is fine
This is probably true, but if you want to properly take crits into account, it significantly reduces your unit placement options and adds a lot of complexity to your planning. Which is fine, but that's more investment in the game than I can afford. Which is why I agree with other people who say crits should be toggleable. I'd turn of crits before permadeath, for sure.
It's one of the few ways the game can smack you down when you've been getting cocky or reckless
All that aside though I would be incredibly surprised if they ever included the option of turning crits off
You know I really can't think of anything that uses RPG mechanics and doesn't include crits
I'm the goodest
cant get gooder
But yeah, I can see why not everyone likes to play that way.
But I love that stuff. Fire Emblem is all about out maneuvering your enemy, and I love juggling those pieces. Crits aren't even a particularly big element to me. weaknesses are much, much worse, since they triple weapon power, which can be way more powerful than a crit. Mind your pegasi
Granted I agree they need a no permadeath option for folks
I just contest the idea that crits can't be dealt with. They can
And I don't agree and that's ok!
I think you're probably right that turning them off won't be an option, which means I'll just stick with no permadeath, which is unfortunate, but at least I'll still get to play the game
Superman does good. You do well.
I DO WHAT I WANT
Dude, this seems silly to argue with such finality. I mean, Wyborn wouldn't be saying "crits can be dealt with" unless he'd actually, you know, dealt with them. Clearly it's possible, since he doesn't have an issue. Saying "no they can't" seems like a weird hardline stance to take, since it's basically saying "no, your experience is invalid". You not wanting or feeling unable to personally deal with them is fine. Saying it's not possible is reductive.
I don't agree that they can be dealt with with any level of reasonability, no
Never moving anyone within range of an enemy that could crit them to death ever is, to me, untenable
if Wyborn finds that doable that's cool but its not for me, so I don't think they can be dealt with in my experience, no
And now I take you through my thought process
"wow, that boss just dies after 3 hits with the Spinner?
kinda anticlimactic but whatever
hey why isn't there any Piece of Heart?
I guess it'll show up after I use this Spinner part OH GEEZ NOW THIS IS HAPPENING"
Mr. G, the last 4 dungeons in that game (starting with the one you're on) are all very, very good
How are you finding it?
Edit: I mean the game in general since I remember you saying you didn't like it the first time
You're all crazy.
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
I remember little bits and pieces, but no whole parts
Like for example I know once I go up this tower to the mirror there's going to be a really long cutscene about Ganondorf
And the next dungeon is the snow one with the evil Yeti wife, which is where I stopped playing originally
But I don't remember anything about the village or Castle Town or that the one girl loses her memory or you get the whole Fused Shadow and then Zant IMMEDIATELY shows up to take it
What I'm learning is that none of the 3D Zeldas are bad, or even just okay
you're a grown-ass man
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FACT
NOW EXCUSE ME WHILE I DRINK THIS HOT COCOA IN MY JAMMIES AND HUG THIS KITTY
Do what I did. Get a second 3DS.
So you've never gotten to the sky temple
You're in for a treat
provided you aren't scared of heights
I find it funny-ish that Mr G gave up on TP the same point I did originally.
The friend that convinced me to finish it talked up the sky temple and the final boss. He might have contributed to me finding the end game so lackluster.
Both of those things are great
I disagree. The entire game felt meh to me. The game alternated between spectacle and substance but never managed both at once.
It wasn't a bad game, but the only reason I'll ever replay it is because I want to give it another chance, not because I enjoyed it the first time.
I'm probably not going to do it this year though. Between MM and Zelda WiiU, I don't want to be Zelda'd out when I play it or ZeldaU.
fire emblem crits are absolutely avoidable beyond like, maybe the first few levels where you have little in the way of options
you just treat that 1% chance of death like it's 100%. Like any tactics game, you want to leave the dice out of things as much as possible, because they'll bite you.
put yourself in situations where you are actually numerically, perfectly safe. This is possible! without grinding! There are classes specifically designed to weather both physical and magic attacks, with high defense or resistance.
you have access to all the numbers. When you see a swordmaster or berserker with high skill you shoot him dead before he can draw
that's how it goes
But the sky dungeon is up there for my favorite in the series, and a horse battle and swordfight for the final boss is cool and fun
Sorry you didn't enjoy it as much
Baffled how someone can not like dual clawshots tho
being spider-man
weird bird thing
dragon fight?
AAAAAHHHHFUCKFUCKFUCKDONTLOOKDOWNDONTLOOKDOWN
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I'm the worst person, its me.