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Fellow Groomsmen using casual anti-gay hate speech

2

Posts

  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    bowen wrote: »
    Don't bring it up at all is the better option, once the wedding is done, just don't associate with the guy.

    ABSOLUTELY bring it up. I would just wait till after the wedding as well but I sure as shit would confront the guy about it. I would not involve the bride or groom in it though.

    Magic Pink on
    Quid
  • HollerHoller Registered User regular
    Djeet wrote: »
    In my opinion do not escalate this to the bride or groom, they have enough things to worry about and you dont need to stress them out. As bridal party members your job is to lighten their load and have a brilliant time. Presumably you're both big boys and can let him know that's "not cool" naturally and without making a big to-do about it.

    Having a member of the wedding party behave boorishly and making your guests uncomfortable is an absolutely valid concern to bring to the table. The groom can choose not to worry about it if this is not something he cares about, or if he thinks the groomsman is an obligatory inclusion, and is a tantrumy, wedding-ruiny piece of shit who is best catered to for an evening to preserve greater harmony, that's totally fine. But if he feels very invested in creating a comfortable environment for his guests, he likely will agree that asking his friend to cool it on the hate speech for an evening isn't an insurmountable obstacle. Either way, he's responsible for the atmosphere of this party, so this is another thing on that list.

  • hsuhsu Registered User regular
    First off, if you haven't mentioned this to the other groomsman already, I don't understand why you suddenly think you've got to mention it now, when your friend is getting married. Either you've said your piece in the past, and the other groomsman ignored you, or you've held your peace in the past for probably years, in which case, you really shouldn't be bringing this up now, when you've had a ton of chances in the past. Thus, I'm in the "shut up and ignore him" camp for the sake of your friend's wedding.

    Second, if you really want to debate this topic, I believe there's a much better section of the PA forums for that.

    iTNdmYl.png
  • BotznoyBotznoy Registered User regular
    The groomsmen in question and I dont interact regularly at all. Like 5 times in the past 2 years and always through our mutual friend the groom. I know the groom doesnt use the language as he knows that its offensive

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  • tarnoktarnok Registered User regular
    I'll just say this: at this point in time you know you can prevent this from causing a scene and being the defining memory of your friend's wedding. If you say something to this guy, then it's _his_ choice whether or not this causes a scene. Do you trust him not to react poorly to your rebuke?

    Wii Code:
    0431-6094-6446-7088
    Agahnim
  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    "I would appreciate it if you didn't use that term around me" works wonders sometimes. I would also air your concern with the man of honor if necessary. Don't lecture him, don't bring up LGBT issues, just state that it makes you uncomfortable. If he isn't a dick he may make an attempt to not use it around you and others at the wedding. Though cut him slack if he slips up and don't say anything about it further.

    Kick_04Cambiata
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Given the comments about his attitude above, you might want to try saying something like "to help ensure X & Y's day goes great", you want to avoid using "Z terms and language". Phrase it as not wanting to risk causing a stink at the wedding and making others attending uncomfortable just like frequent swearing or off-colour jokes are inapproriate in some settings. Then, after the wedding is over feel free to have it out.

    Caedwyr on
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    I think the responsibility of (calmly) confronting hate speech is more important than your responsibility to the bride and groom. I don't believe that there is any social situation where the convenience of others should preclude confronting this. If you're cool about it when you speak to this man, and he blows up and fucks something up for them that is his responsibility. Not that I envision something like that happening from 'I don't appreciate that language'. If he can't handle that, then you would disengage.

    I don't agree with the ignore it and him advice.

    Lucid on
    Cambiata
  • MichaelLCMichaelLC In what furnace was thy brain? ChicagoRegistered User regular
    Lucid, so can I assume you are not married and were never involved in a wedding?

    See my post above for times when the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. Yes it's shitty but regardless of who's "fault" it is, people's memory will be of the fight, not of the wedding.

    For a 'funnier' example, I was at a wedding where the bride choked on a meatball and missed her reception. That will always be remembered as the meatball wedding.

    Mugsley wrote:
    So now I need to get it trimmed and adjusted, and all in.

    Steam:MichaelLC
    Agahnim
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    I can see how some would see this as placing ideology over the comfort of people in your personal life, and maybe it is, but I think with stuff like hate speech it kind of has to a lot of the time. OP doesn't have to be aggressive and dogmatic or anything though. Doesn't even have to push.

    It's entirely possible that it could be an entirely negative experience, there is risk involved here. There is also the possibility that this man will actually consider what he's been saying and change. I think the chance of this happening is ultimately of more value than protecting the stress levels of those involved in the wedding, as insensitive as that may seem.

    Lucid on
    Cambiata
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    man, you can combat social injustice at venues other than your friends wedding.

    ShimshaiDarkewolfebowenAgahnim
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited February 2015
    I think there are some fundamental differences of outlook between the "shut up and take it" crowd, and the "you should speak out" crowd, but I am only going to address one of them.

    People's desire to blame the "trigger" for an abusive person is the reason abusive people abound so openly in society without being questioned. The concept of "everyone be really good today so daddy won't yell" is a common survival tactic for living with abusive people, but asking an outsider to follow those rules or else take the blame for daddy's yelling (when it's daddy that has lost control, not the outsider) is, at the very least, dysfunctional behavior that shouldn't be promoted as the healthy thing to do.

    It also feels a bit like we're dealing with the awkward introvert concept of "If I don't openly nod my head and agree with everything people say to me socially, then the world will implode in fire and blood." I totally get the feeling that if you don't just go along with everything forever then the world will collapse (I too, am an incredibly socially awkward nerd). But this isn't really giving the rest of the world much credit. Treat people like adults until they give you actual reason to doubt it. And no, using a slur isn't really a reason, because a lot of people use them without thinking about it, just because they were raised in a place where it's normal.

    Cambiata on
    HollertynicLord Palingtonchrishallett83LoveIsUnityRainfallUsagiTychoCelchuuuLibrarian
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    I think one side is saying there is a time and a place to do this sort of thing while also recognizing that the "Once in a lifetime event that my friend and their family spent thousands of dollars on" is a pretty selfish and socially misadjusted place and time to choose.

    While anybody may well place Social Justice as a higher moral concern than their friend's happiness and joy at that friends own wedding it does explicitly mean you are placing your own beliefs above your friend's goal for the event.

    If that is the case, I don't understand why you bother to attend the wedding instead of going off and correcting random people on the street about insensitive comments.

    XaquinbowenJuliusAgahnim
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    See, where we have a disconnect is that what you're saying sounds crazily bizzare, and I'll try to illustrate why.

    Let's say you have a very nice pair of black leather dress shoes you plan to wear to the wedding, and you wear said shoes to events where this groomsman will be. And for reasons beyond comprehension, the groomsman takes deep offense at those shoes and starts causing a scene about them. Is the correct answer here "well, you really shouldn't have worn those shoes, you know. There's a time and a place for vanity, and the most important day of your friend's life isn't it! You should be ashamed."

    That's what people's advice about shutting up sounds like to me. You're acting like it's perfectly normal that someone would flip out over this fairly mundane thing. In fact it's even worse than my shoe scenario - you're predicting a scene where it doesn't seem at all rational to predict one. And then you're building up some social justice strawman as the reason that a scene would be inevitable. It's weird.

    HollerRainfall
  • Squidget0Squidget0 Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    People getting upset over issues like homophobia, whether it's on the "calling out" side or the "being called out" side seems completely normal and expected to me. Social justice issues are uniquely divisive, and people have strong opinions about them. Once people start to use words like "homophobia" and "hate speech" it becomes incredibly easy to lose control of the conversation, even if you're sure that you are in the right.

    The same courtesy is expected from both sides. If you're a conservative attending a wedding with liberals, you also don't get to talk about the evils of someone's abortion or how one of the groomsmen is going to hell, even if you really deeply believe it.

    And your shoe metaphor is backwards. In that metaphor, the other guy is the one causing the scene, so he's still in the wrong. The imperative either way isn't "Be right", it's "Don't risk turning your friend's wedding into a shouting match." If someone else brings it up first, then be the better person and don't escalate until you're in an environment where it doesn't risk of ruining someone's wedding.

    Squidget0 on
    Arch wrote: »
    the lynch mob is a feature, not a bug in the democratic system
    Agahnim
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    See, where we have a disconnect is that what you're saying sounds crazily bizzare, and I'll try to illustrate why.

    Let's say you have a very nice pair of black leather dress shoes you plan to wear to the wedding, and you wear said shoes to events where this groomsman will be. And for reasons beyond comprehension, the groomsman takes deep offense at those shoes and starts causing a scene about them. Is the correct answer here "well, you really shouldn't have worn those shoes, you know. There's a time and a place for vanity, and the most important day of your friend's life isn't it! You should be ashamed."

    That's what people's advice about shutting up sounds like to me. You're acting like it's perfectly normal that someone would flip out over this fairly mundane thing. In fact it's even worse than my shoe scenario - you're predicting a scene where it doesn't seem at all rational to predict one. And then you're building up some social justice strawman as the reason that a scene would be inevitable. It's weird.

    The issue isn't about what's normal, it's about what's predictable. Crazy Uncle Joe may go off on crazy rants about Jews running the banking system and that's all on him being a crazy anti-semite but if you walk up to him at a wedding and say "You're really wrong about Jewish involvement in the banking system" you still are instigating it at that event and taking an action you know has a likely chance of creating an incident. This is totally different from your second cousin Bob talking about buying a house and being sad over high interest rates triggering Uncle Joe.

    In both cases, Uncle Joe is crazy but it's tough to blame cousin Bob because he doesn't know Uncle Joe is crazy and wasn't intentionally challenging the crazy. It's easy to blame you (in this theoretical that is) because you knew that a likely if not probable response was crazy town.

    I understand and sympathize with wanting to confront the homophobic comments. My position is it should be done as far away as possible from the huge once in a lifetime event. Either like the very next time it happens (assuming the groom could replace one or both of them in time) or practically anytime after the wedding/reception. To me, this feels like an obligation to be considerate of the importance of the event to my friend.

    TofystedethAgahnim
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    See, where we have a disconnect is that what you're saying sounds crazily bizzare, and I'll try to illustrate why.

    Let's say you have a very nice pair of black leather dress shoes you plan to wear to the wedding, and you wear said shoes to events where this groomsman will be. And for reasons beyond comprehension, the groomsman takes deep offense at those shoes and starts causing a scene about them. Is the correct answer here "well, you really shouldn't have worn those shoes, you know. There's a time and a place for vanity, and the most important day of your friend's life isn't it! You should be ashamed."

    That's what people's advice about shutting up sounds like to me. You're acting like it's perfectly normal that someone would flip out over this fairly mundane thing. In fact it's even worse than my shoe scenario - you're predicting a scene where it doesn't seem at all rational to predict one. And then you're building up some social justice strawman as the reason that a scene would be inevitable. It's weird.

    The issue isn't about what's normal, it's about what's predictable. Crazy Uncle Joe may go off on crazy rants about Jews running the banking system and that's all on him being a crazy anti-semite but if you walk up to him at a wedding and say "You're really wrong about Jewish involvement in the banking system" you still are instigating it at that event and taking an action you know has a likely chance of creating an incident. This is totally different from your second cousin Bob talking about buying a house and being sad over high interest rates triggering Uncle Joe.

    1) This is the part that's weird. You're assuming every human you meet must, inevitably, be crazy uncle joe. It's the classic assumption of the socially awkward nerd - that everyone in the world is ready to blow up at you for reasons you can't possibly understand. While there are crazy uncle joes out there, it's not at all logical to assume that everyone is that way. 2) "You're wrong about the banking system" would be bad, yes. But even in the current scenario no one is suggesting anything remotely like that. Instead, it's like Crazy Uncle Joe starts talking to you about the banking industry, and you say "I'm sorry, I'm not interested in discussing that." and then change the subject. In short, we're recommending a technique to end a scene, not to start one. While your advice is to let the scene continue "for the sake of your friend."

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    The shoes thing is a pretty useless analogy as most people I know wouldn't DREAM of wearing a fancy white dress to a wedding because there are some things you don't do because they aren't socially acceptable or, you know, nice. The bride and groom are allowed to set a dress code as it's their event, and they're allowed to be pretty annoyed if people don't follow their requests.

    I also think a quick "dude, not cool" next time it happens won't hurt likely hurt anything, on the other hand if he says something bad at the wedding and someone there gets offended, he was the jerk and not you for instigating. I think chances are a few guests shutting him down, possibly with your (gentle) help at the time, will go farther than you trying to make it a *thing* before or after the wedding.

    I am also frankly seventeen different kinds of fucking gay and I don't personally think this is the huge deal you're making it to be in your head. It's not great, but hearing someone say it if it wasn't a directed insult wouldn't ruin my night, either. Don't get me wrong, there are words people can use casually that definitely do, but other people don't get to decide what those are for me.

    I guess what I'm saying is, if you are gay and this bothers you, it's a bit more important than just "I think some guests won't like to hear it." I don't know if you're gay or bi or not, but if this is a personal thing for you and is upsetting to you on that level, that makes this a whole different story. If THAT's the case, I'd definitely pull him aside and say "hey, this makes me uncomfortable" or go to the groom and ask for advice since he clearly invited both of you to be an integral part of the same event. He probably had an idea of how he thought this would go down, and you should tell him it's not working for you. If you're completely hetero and are just trying to be a good guy, maybe just find other parts of the room to be in where possible if you find him unpleasant, and that is also valid.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
    IrukaminirhyderEgosbowenJuliusTofystedeth
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    See, where we have a disconnect is that what you're saying sounds crazily bizzare, and I'll try to illustrate why.

    Let's say you have a very nice pair of black leather dress shoes you plan to wear to the wedding, and you wear said shoes to events where this groomsman will be. And for reasons beyond comprehension, the groomsman takes deep offense at those shoes and starts causing a scene about them. Is the correct answer here "well, you really shouldn't have worn those shoes, you know. There's a time and a place for vanity, and the most important day of your friend's life isn't it! You should be ashamed."

    That's what people's advice about shutting up sounds like to me. You're acting like it's perfectly normal that someone would flip out over this fairly mundane thing. In fact it's even worse than my shoe scenario - you're predicting a scene where it doesn't seem at all rational to predict one. And then you're building up some social justice strawman as the reason that a scene would be inevitable. It's weird.

    The issue isn't about what's normal, it's about what's predictable. Crazy Uncle Joe may go off on crazy rants about Jews running the banking system and that's all on him being a crazy anti-semite but if you walk up to him at a wedding and say "You're really wrong about Jewish involvement in the banking system" you still are instigating it at that event and taking an action you know has a likely chance of creating an incident. This is totally different from your second cousin Bob talking about buying a house and being sad over high interest rates triggering Uncle Joe.

    1) This is the part that's weird. You're assuming every human you meet must, inevitably, be crazy uncle joe. It's the classic assumption of the socially awkward nerd - that everyone in the world is ready to blow up at you for reasons you can't possibly understand. While there are crazy uncle joes out there, it's not at all logical to assume that everyone is that way. 2) "You're wrong about the banking system" would be bad, yes. But even in the current scenario no one is suggesting anything remotely like that. Instead, it's like Crazy Uncle Joe starts talking to you about the banking industry, and you say "I'm sorry, I'm not interested in discussing that." and then change the subject. In short, we're recommending a technique to end a scene, not to start one. While your advice is to let the scene continue "for the sake of your friend."

    1) I'm actually assuming just this guy is like crazy uncle joe. This is totally based on thin evidence (OP's comments he does hold grudges and tends to complain loudly if things don't go his way both ring some bells in my head) but I think we're all operating such thin evidence here. I am also weighing the value of avoiding a scene at my friend's wedding much more heavily than scolding a man-child for inappropriate behavior. That weighting is absolutely a personal decision.

    2) This may be some of the disconnect here. My "polite" response to these sort of comments would be dead silence followed by a brusque change of topic. I am not advocating condoning these comments at all but am advocating a non-engagement. My "corrective" response would be more confrontational about how those comments are inappropriate and offensive and depending on my read of the situation probably designed to embarrass the hell out of him.

  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited February 2015
    2) This may be some of the disconnect here. My "polite" response to these sort of comments would be dead silence followed by a brusque change of topic. I am not advocating condoning these comments at all but am advocating a non-engagement. My "corrective" response would be more confrontational about how those comments are inappropriate and offensive and depending on my read of the situation probably designed to embarrass the hell out of him.

    Ok, yeah, I see what's happening with our disconnect then. You're idea of social justice is to explain in detail why what they're saying is harmful. While I think it's pretty cool that you have a strong enough sense of self that you can feel confident to do that, I don't think I'd ever go that far with a stranger. For me it would just be a simple "please don't say that when I'm around, thanks!" and leave it at that. Which to me is on level with the Crazy Uncle Joe wanting to discuss the banking conspiracy, and me saying "I don't want to discuss that, thanks!" Like I said, you're not trying to cause a scene, you're taking steps to end a scene. Like an adult who is taking extra steps to help make their friend's wedding go more smoothly.

    Cambiata on
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    I think one side is saying there is a time and a place to do this sort of thing while also recognizing that the "Once in a lifetime event that my friend and their family spent thousands of dollars on" is a pretty selfish and socially misadjusted place and time to choose.

    While anybody may well place Social Justice as a higher moral concern than their friend's happiness and joy at that friends own wedding it does explicitly mean you are placing your own beliefs above your friend's goal for the event.

    If that is the case, I don't understand why you bother to attend the wedding instead of going off and correcting random people on the street about insensitive comments.

    If social justice is a large concern for someone they're not only thinking of themselves. That's kind of what it's about, that's what confronting hate speech is about - you are concerned with the welfare of other people. I find it difficult to see how confronting hate speech could be considered a selfish act, just because it's at a friends wedding. To confront this doesn't mean you're making it all about you. To suggest to someone that hate speech is not acceptable is to suggest the person think of people other than themselves. You're taking into consideration the idea that if your words have an effect on the person and compels them to consider what they're saying, then they may think about not saying these things around other people.

    I guess I don't believe in sacred areas of life where hate speech should be tolerated.

    The only exception I can think of would be if someone was being hateful on their deathbed. There wouldn't even be any use at that point.

    Lucid on
    GethCambiatatynicUsagi
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    ceres wrote: »
    I guess what I'm saying is, if you are gay and this bothers you, it's a bit more important than just "I think some guests won't like to hear it." I don't know if you're gay or bi or not, but if this is a personal thing for you and is upsetting to you on that level, that makes this a whole different story. If THAT's the case, I'd definitely pull him aside and say "hey, this makes me uncomfortable" or go to the groom and ask for advice since he clearly invited both of you to be an integral part of the same event. He probably had an idea of how he thought this would go down, and you should tell him it's not working for you. If you're completely hetero and are just trying to be a good guy, maybe just find other parts of the room to be in where possible if you find him unpleasant, and that is also valid.

    I'm a white man, and if I heard someone going on with the n word or start referring to women as sluts or whatever in a similar situation, I would definitely say something. I don't think you have to be part of a minority to stand up to this kind of stuff with similar strength of belief. It might even be more important for those of privileged backgrounds to do this. That's kind of the ideal isn't it? Straight white men should consider this stuff as important to them as it is for the people that are in a minority or oppressed position. I think this is where the responsibility of being an ally comes in.

    Of course, I don't know what kind of conviction the OP has in regards to his beliefs, and maybe that is something worth considering for him.

    Lucid on
    Cambiata
  • RinSlyRinSly Registered User regular
    Are you the best man? Is he? If no to both, try bringing it up to the best man. I know for my wedding, my husband and I pretty much designated a friend who is good at discrete confrontation as trouble shooter. Most wedding parties use the best man for this. Maybe he can help you redirect the asshole so you dont have to hear it and the groom doesnt have to deal with/know abt any drama.

    IrukaceresDraygo
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Lucid wrote: »
    I think one side is saying there is a time and a place to do this sort of thing while also recognizing that the "Once in a lifetime event that my friend and their family spent thousands of dollars on" is a pretty selfish and socially misadjusted place and time to choose.

    While anybody may well place Social Justice as a higher moral concern than their friend's happiness and joy at that friends own wedding it does explicitly mean you are placing your own beliefs above your friend's goal for the event.

    If that is the case, I don't understand why you bother to attend the wedding instead of going off and correcting random people on the street about insensitive comments.

    If social justice is a large concern for someone they're not only thinking of themselves. That's kind of what it's about, that's what confronting hate speech is about - you are concerned with the welfare of other people. I find it difficult to see how confronting hate speech could be considered a selfish act, just because it's at a friends wedding. To confront this doesn't mean you're making it all about you. To suggest to someone that hate speech is not acceptable is to suggest the person think of people other than themselves. You're taking into consideration the idea that if your words have an effect on the person and compels them to consider what they're saying, then they may think about not saying these things around other people.

    I guess I don't believe in sacred areas of life where hate speech should be tolerated.

    The only exception I can think of would be if someone was being hateful on their deathbed. There wouldn't even be any use at that point.

    And that's a lovely idealistic thought and I appreciate the sentiment. However if it came up at a wedding and a straight guy said "hey that's not cool you shouldn't say that because it's offensive to gay people" when he KNOWS the guy gets belligerent when confronted with that stuff? The reality is that straight guy has just turned something that wouldn't ruin my day into a display of anger at the subject that I fear when I hold hands with or kiss my girlfriend, and caused a scene that actually will. And maybe that straight person isn't really equipped to understand that, but there is more than one set of potential triggers at work here.

    So if the OP is standing up for themselves, that is good and admirable and their right. If it is some well-meaning straight guy then I personally would prefer that, if a confrontation were going to happen, it happen literally anywhere other than a very expensive event that the organizers and most in attendance are trying to enjoy, supposedly on my behalf. That's why I said try to catch it next time, because whatever happens will likely blow over before the wedding itself.

    Now, obviously I won't be at this wedding and I can't speak for those who attend. But my advice would be that if you're going to do it, do it before, do it after, do NOT do it at the wedding itself if you know the guy has a tendency to get angry-loud.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
    DevoutlyApatheticGonmunQuidEgosbowenAgahnim
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    The suggestion was that if the person showed any sign of hostility after the initial 'hey not cool' comment, that it would be time to disengage. Any scene caused afterwards would be the responsibility of the offender. He doesn't even have to add 'it's offensive to gay people', because as I said it should be offensive to everyone, and if a straight bears the conviction of being an ally then this is part of that responsibility. To take that offence on behalf of others but also themselves.

    I mean yeah, if in the midst of the proceedings the fellow muttered a slur under his breath it would be best to wait, because things are underway. But I have the impression that the person saying this stuff isn't totally socially maladjusted to the point where this would happen. I don't recall anything about -knowing- that this man will become so incensed as to make a scene though. Sure, if you know someone is going to flip out and cause a ruckus it would be best to remain silent. If the OP's friend is against this kind of language, it stands to reason that he doesn't invite people to his wedding that are known to lose it to the point that they cause social disruptions relating to this.

    The scenario being thought of here seemed to be if this fellow was alone with the OP, and said something negative then this would be when to say 'not cool' or whatever. Not for the OP to castigate the man in the midst of all parties involved.


    Lucid on
    Cambiata
  • BotznoyBotznoy Registered User regular
    I wont be doing this at the wedding at all. And this is me: being a mostly straight guy saying that I find this language offensive. But specifically the usage of fag is why this at all became an issue that's really incensed me. Otherwise I would let it slide when someone would use gay as a pejorative because it's hard for me, personally to describe how it makes someone feel because I've never experienced it and argh.

    If it comes up again I feel like I'll be doing the 'dude that language is not cool' bit.

    I'm not doing this for the wedding either, this is more for me and my selfishness in not wanting to hear that offensive language and the attitudes it reinforces and represents, both implicit and explicit. The wedding creates a dilemma for me as I have a responsibility to the Groom to take care of business for him and help things go smooth but at the same time as Tube said I am in a position of great privilege and have an opportunity to tap some of bad shit out that can cause hurt to others.

    IZF2byN.jpg

    Want to play co-op games? Feel free to hit me up!
    Cambiataceres
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Ceres is right, that my clothes metaphor doesn't work because at weddings clothes are a big deal.

    But I think the stop stepping on my foot metaphor works pretty well.

    No one needs to have deep conversations with someone about why stepping on feet hurts people, nor the history of stepping on feet and how all that builds up to modern feet-stepping. If someone steps on your foot, you can just ask them not to do it; waiting three weeks to let them know "you stepped on my foot that one time, and I want an apology" would be weird. You don't need to endure having someone stand on your foot because your buddy is getting married in a week, and asking someone not to step on your foot isn't generally very likely to cause a blow up.

  • CreaganCreagan Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Ceres is right, that my clothes metaphor doesn't work because at weddings clothes are a big deal.

    But I think the stop stepping on my foot metaphor works pretty well.

    No one needs to have deep conversations with someone about why stepping on feet hurts people, nor the history of stepping on feet and how all that builds up to modern feet-stepping. If someone steps on your foot, you can just ask them not to do it; waiting three weeks to let them know "you stepped on my foot that one time, and I want an apology" would be weird. You don't need to endure having someone stand on your foot because your buddy is getting married in a week, and asking someone not to step on your foot isn't generally very likely to cause a blow up.
    You are making the assumption that this person would react rationally to this sort of request, though. And the problem is that frequently the sort of people who throw around slurs the way this guy is don't react rationally, no matter how short and sweet your request is.

    We don't know how this guy will react. He may start using the words more, just to tick the OP off. Or he may make a point of commenting on how the OP doesn't like those words every time he sees him. Or he may try to blow the whole thing up regardless of how calm the OP is. Or maybe he'll shut up and try to change his language. But we don't know, and therefore we must assume that he will react any of those ways.

    ceresJusticeforPlutoQuid
  • Squidget0Squidget0 Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Ceres is right, that my clothes metaphor doesn't work because at weddings clothes are a big deal.

    But I think the stop stepping on my foot metaphor works pretty well.

    No one needs to have deep conversations with someone about why stepping on feet hurts people, nor the history of stepping on feet and how all that builds up to modern feet-stepping. If someone steps on your foot, you can just ask them not to do it; waiting three weeks to let them know "you stepped on my foot that one time, and I want an apology" would be weird. You don't need to endure having someone stand on your foot because your buddy is getting married in a week, and asking someone not to step on your foot isn't generally very likely to cause a blow up.

    I would agree that, on average, asking someone to change their terminology probably isn't that likely to cause a blow-up. I'd estimate from people I know that it has much less than 50% odds, and with most groups it's probably less than 10%.

    10% is still too much. Your friend may only get one wedding ever. They don't get a do-over if you mess it up.

    Bringing up issues like homophobia and hate speech is much more likely to cause a blow-up than almost anything else that you could bring up, as would any politically divisive issue.

    I think if you have strong evidence that the language is seriously hurting someone, either because it's you being hurt or because someone else present has told you specifically that it hurts them, that changes things somewhat. But if it's just calling someone out for the sake of an intellectual gang sign ("Only right-thinking socially conscious liberals are allowed in this part of town"), then it's too big a risk for too little reward.

    Arch wrote: »
    the lynch mob is a feature, not a bug in the democratic system
    ceresJusticeforPluto
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    I think an important thing to remember about being an ally is that you're there for the other person/people in the best, most empathetic way possible. Sometimes that will mean speaking out and wielding your privilege in a useful way. Sometimes, however, it will involve you not making a situation actively worse, because you are more than likely not the individual who will feel the consequences of that. You maybe can't always pre-plan it; sometimes you just need to feel the room and figure out where you can be useful in an appropriate way, even if that just means stepping in and pulling one of the parties away to talk about something else. I feel like sometimes people who call themselves allies don't have the sense they were born with about these things.

    I'm glad you've already decided that you won't say anything at the wedding. It's just the worst imaginable time to bring something like that up.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
    CreaganMichaelLCJusticeforPlutoQuidEgosAgahnim
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    But if it's just calling someone out for the sake of an intellectual gang sign ("Only right-thinking socially conscious liberals are allowed in this part of town"), then it's too big a risk for too little reward.

    It is not dogmatic to ask someone to stop using hateful language around you.

    I don't really consider the chance of causing a person to consider changing 'little reward'. The idea that you need strong evidence to politely suggest that someone chill on the hate speech, that is weird to me. You may as well say never speak up then. There is very rarely any immediate reward for these things.

    Asking someone to not bring up hate speech is not bringing up hate speech. They already did that.
    ceres wrote:
    Sometimes, however, it will involve you not making a situation actively worse, because you are more than likely not the individual who will feel the consequences of that.

    But someone may feel the consequences of hate speech down the line. It just seems like passing the buck, for the sake of a small chance of a little bit of stress on one day of someone's life. Whereas unchecked hate speech may cause more people stress later on. There is more potential emotional harm for more people.

    Lucid on
  • Rorshach KringleRorshach Kringle that crustache life Registered User regular
    you are weighing hypotheticals over an actual event that is actually happening

    6jomko.png
  • CreaganCreagan Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    At the moment, the OP's primary obligation isn't towards anybody this one other guy in the wedding party might meet and insult later on in life. It's to the bride and groom. Part of being in the wedding part is agreeing to try and make the process go as smoothly as possible for the couple, who are more than likely stressed out, incredibly busy, and super nervous. Right now, they don't need somebody to make a statement that may or may not set another member of their wedding part off, regardless of how correct that statement may be. They need the wedding to happen with as few problems as possible.

    The OP can take the guy aside right before he leaves the wedding and have a quiet word with him about slurs if he wants. But he shouldn't do it before or during the wedding.

    Creagan on
    GethceresJusticeforPlutoXaquinEgos
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    Creagan wrote:
    At the moment, the OP's primary obligation isn't towards anybody this one other guy in the wedding party might meet and insult later on in life.

    I disagree. A person in a position of privilege (in this case being hetero) is responsible for speaking up against this kind of language because it can be harmful down the line. The potential stress levels of his likewise privileged friends at their wedding is not as important as the potential emotional harm that could be endured by the less privileged if this behaviour continues in the future.

    If part of being in the wedding party is to make things go smoothly, then how is asking someone else in the party to follow this code of conduct unreasonable (this is what you would be doing if you asked them to stop)? The offender is decidedly working against this if they choose to vocalize hate speech to others at the wedding. The OP stated that his friend the groom does not like this language. What if he hears it and it stresses him out?

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    I just want to point out that the expectation should be that everyone reacts rationally. Including the guy being asked to stop saying slurs.

    Saying that, "You don't know how Crazy Uncle Joe might react" is grounds for not saying anything unfairly places the responsibility upon the person speaking up for someone else's behavior. It doesn't really matter how you adjust the hypothetical - Crazy Uncle Joe could be saying the n-word, or he could be doing something as innocuous as laughing really loudly - it is incumbent upon him to react rationally to both scenarios. Becoming confrontational or acting out even more brazenly are both completely irrational and, more importantly, completely immature reactions. The only person responsible for Crazy Uncle Joe's reaction is Crazy Uncle Joe. Period. If he ruins the wedding, then he is the one ruining the wedding. Not anybody else.

    This is doubly true if all the OP did was nicely ask him privately to just stop using those words around him. It doesn't matter if Crazy Uncle Joe is some wingnut who thinks all gay people should die in hell - he's just as much a member of the wedding party, and it is his responsibility not to make a huge deal out of it and ruin the wedding.

    In this case I don't think it's at all out of the question for someone to say something. Especially if, again, it is done calmly and privately, and not in an accusatory fashion. For those who think that the OP should think of "the good of the wedding", I would suggest you consider this situation of the offending party were using the n-word, and how appropriate it would be to speak up in that case, especially if the wedding had at least one black person in attendance.

    The question is whether or not it's appropriate to say something. It's entirely appropriate to say something, regardless of how the offender reacts.

    That being said, it is also entirely appropriate not to say something, if you feel the situation warrants. Life isn't some Bioware game where every single action you take adds or detracts from your Paragon meter. You are not expected to live your life as Social Justice Warrior and drop everything in your life just to combat every single injustice that you come across.

    Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.
    CambiataWhippyTychoCelchuuu
  • Rorshach KringleRorshach Kringle that crustache life Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    here's the thing

    the groomsmen ain't saying shit during the wedding ceremony proper. that's not how weddings work. this is not about weighing the entirety of the guest list over a single blow up. this is weighing the stress of putting on a ding dang ceremony that cost you thousands of dollars versus what one sputter in the cogs of getting that ceremony done's worth.

    seriously, unless the op is talking about the best man, whatever toxic views this guy has ain't gonna be heard until the reception. which, is totally an okay place to call him on them. hell, for all you know a lot of other people are waiting for this exact moment.

    plus there is also the very real conflation of a dude who is a general nuisance to this hatemonger people will totally side with.

    there are injustices, there are offenses, and there is cold, hard reality, and the simple fact is they are very much so mutually exclusive for most of our lives, man.

    Rorshach Kringle on
    6jomko.png
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    That being said, it is also entirely appropriate not to say something, if you feel the situation warrants. Life isn't some Bioware game where every single action you take adds or detracts from your Paragon meter. You are not expected to live your life as Social Justice Warrior and drop everything in your life just to combat every single injustice that you come across.

    I readily agree with this.

    Lucid on
    Cambiata
  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    If you think he feels a reasonable amount of duty and brotherhood toward the groom, mention to him that there might be queer people at the wedding and in the families.

    Just a very simple "I = we = know you don't mean anything serious when you say this shit but there will be strangers here that Bride and Groom invited" might do the job. Short term.

    JohnnyCache on
  • CreaganCreagan Registered User regular
    Lucid wrote: »
    Creagan wrote:
    At the moment, the OP's primary obligation isn't towards anybody this one other guy in the wedding party might meet and insult later on in life.

    I disagree. A person in a position of privilege (in this case being hetero) is responsible for speaking up against this kind of language because it can be harmful down the line. The potential stress levels of his likewise privileged friends at their wedding is not as important as the potential emotional harm that could be endured by the less privileged if this behaviour continues in the future.

    Okay, as a disabled woman, I'm going to stop you right here- it is NOT the responsibility of people in a position of privilege to speak up against this sort of thing. Because they don't know what's going on with the underprivileged people, and it's entirely possible that maybe they DON'T want to get into the whole standing up for the minority/underprivileged group fight at the moment. Maybe having a privileged person speak for them pisses them off or makes them feel like shit for not having the energy to speak up themselves.

    If anything, people in positions of power need to be extra careful when speaking up for the disadvantaged to make sure that they're saying the correct things and not speaking over the group they're trying to support.

    ceresIrukaDevoutlyApatheticJusticeforPlutoUsagi
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