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    KilroyKilroy timaeusTestified Registered User regular
    Maximum wrote: »
    Yes, I have no doubt the matches will be good to great. That doesn't change the fact that they've done little to make me excited about them.

    I think that's the real issue here.

    yeah I have trouble enjoying matches when I feel I have no stake in what the outcome is, regardless of how well the matches are worked

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    stevemarks44stevemarks44 Registered User regular
    facetious wrote: »
    I've been avoiding this conversation because I generally try to take a "wait and see" approach to shows, but I think to me the biggest issue with storylines heading into WrestleMania is that none of them are organic.

    Let's not even get into the Roman discussion - the whole conceit of the Rumble winner getting the main event is already inorganic to begin with. By itself, it would be acceptable if the builds for the other matches made sense.

    With the exception of Cena/Rusev, and I guess Sting/HHH (and even then you can't argue that that match is organic in any way), literally every other match has been thrown together in the last few weeks because it's WrestleMania time and we need matches.

    It's especially stark contrasted against the fact that the single best storyline the WWE had going, by a huge margin, that had a perfect build toward a payoff at WrestleMania, got suddenly dropped for no kayfabe reason. (And yes, as should be obvious I'm referencing the Dust Bhrodes.)

    Yeah I mean I'm not excited for WM but I will be excited for it when its starting and I will enjoy the experience I'm sure. I'm easy to please.

    But I agree. Sting's explanation for his intervention IS actually super organic and smart, but as others and I have pointed out infinitely, it's hard to feel anything when you don't ever see the two of them in the ring together or talking to each other. Even good organic stuff seems stilted when youre just watching one way promos and video packages. So they're fighting an already uphill battle this year since absent parties are such a common theme in WM promos.

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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    facetious wrote: »
    I've been avoiding this conversation because I generally try to take a "wait and see" approach to shows, but I think to me the biggest issue with storylines heading into WrestleMania is that none of them are organic.

    Let's not even get into the Roman discussion - the whole conceit of the Rumble winner getting the main event is already inorganic to begin with. By itself, it would be acceptable if the builds for the other matches made sense.

    With the exception of Cena/Rusev, and I guess Sting/HHH (and even then you can't argue that that match is organic in any way), literally every other match has been thrown together in the last few weeks because it's WrestleMania time and we need matches.

    It's especially stark contrasted against the fact that the single best storyline the WWE had going, by a huge margin, that had a perfect build toward a payoff at WrestleMania, got suddenly dropped for no kayfabe reason. (And yes, as should be obvious I'm referencing the Dust Bhrodes.)

    Yeah it's pretty telling that Cena/Rusev has the most heat.

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    facetiousfacetious a wit so dry it shits sandRegistered User regular
    And yes, the reason the SHIELD/Wyatts match was so exciting was precisely because of how organic it was.

    Both teams got hugely over independent of one another. They never needed any convoluted feud between themselves, they mostly had their own things going on. But just by virtue of the fact that they were both dominant teams trying to expand their spheres of influence in WWE, it was inevitable they'd meet. The WWE didn't rush it and didn't force it, it just made sense once the crowd latched onto both teams that it was the right time.

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    Real strong, facetious.

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    CuvisTheConquerorCuvisTheConqueror They always say "yee haw" but they never ask "haw yee?" Registered User regular
    I just think there's a dissonance between the build of this Wrestlemania and the build to others, which Im only saying from hearing others. I started watching again around WM30 so I can't say.

    I've been watching this stuff since Mania 4, and I can confirm your impression. I honestly can't remember this much apathy for a WrestleMania, ever. There have been some main events that people weren't interested in, but even then, for the most part, people were still excited for the rest of the card and the show overall.

    Take it for what it's worth, but IMHO, the build for this year's Mania has been botched to an unprecedented level, for so many reasons.

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    KilroyKilroy timaeusTestified Registered User regular
    I think getting rid of the elimination chamber ppv was a mistake tbh

    nothing at fast lane had the kind of Big Match feel that kicks off wrestlemania season like the chamber had

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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    facetious wrote: »
    I've been avoiding this conversation because I generally try to take a "wait and see" approach to shows, but I think to me the biggest issue with storylines heading into WrestleMania is that none of them are organic.

    Let's not even get into the Roman discussion - the whole conceit of the Rumble winner getting the main event is already inorganic to begin with. By itself, it would be acceptable if the builds for the other matches made sense.

    With the exception of Cena/Rusev, and I guess Sting/HHH (and even then you can't argue that that match is organic in any way), literally every other match has been thrown together in the last few weeks because it's WrestleMania time and we need matches.

    It's especially stark contrasted against the fact that the single best storyline the WWE had going, by a huge margin, that had a perfect build toward a payoff at WrestleMania, got suddenly dropped for no kayfabe reason. (And yes, as should be obvious I'm referencing the Dust Bhrodes.)

    Eh, Sting vs Hunter was set up last November and they've done a good job explaining why Sting is targeting him. Bray vs Taker despite being set up recently has been teased since January and again IMO makes sense from the story perspective Bray is telling. The ladder match? Sure that's a thrown together clusterfuck but it should be great and we got crazy Truth back because of it. The Andre BR also has a great story involved with it.

    But like steve said the big issue is how most of the main players aren't even on TV regularly.

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    Ms DapperMs Dapper Yuri Librarian Registered User regular
    Wrestlemania should be the end of stories set up months, maybe even a year in advance, most of the lower card for it happened this month.

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    NiryaNirya Registered User regular
    Kilroy wrote: »
    Let's talk less about WM and more about The Young Bucks.

    nirya give steve his account back

    STEVE IS DOING THIS ALL ON HIS OWN WITHOUT ANY PUSH FROM ME AT ALL.

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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    I just think there's a dissonance between the build of this Wrestlemania and the build to others, which Im only saying from hearing others. I started watching again around WM30 so I can't say.

    I've been watching this stuff since Mania 4, and I can confirm your impression. I honestly can't remember this much apathy for a WrestleMania, ever. There have been some main events that people weren't interested in, but even then, for the most part, people were still excited for the rest of the card and the show overall.

    Take it for what it's worth, but IMHO, the build for this year's Mania has been botched to an unprecedented level, for so many reasons.

    Yeah I'm sorry I just don't get that line of thought. Mania 17, considered by many as one of the greatest Mania's ever, had a build that was worse than this year's.

    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
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    stevemarks44stevemarks44 Registered User regular
    My biggest hope coming out of Mania is that the Authority gets toppled. Because they kind of absorb any story with any traction, all main event builds and even upper midcard builds seem to end up with a face trying to overcome The Authority. This produces two similar outcomes almost every time:

    1) The Authority loses and just incessantly beats down or stacks the odds against the face, making him look weak even, and by extension, weakens the title.

    2) The Authority wins and gives their goon the title as a trinket, a title they rarely defend, defend by cheating (usually with strength in numbers). This makes the heel look weak and also cheapens the title.

    Sasha and Charlotte are in a crazy feud right now for the women's belt because they both want the validation of being the best.
    Finn Balor beat the former long-time champion to prove he was good enough to get a shot at Kevin Owens, who proved he was the best by dismantling the people's hero, Sami Zayn.

    There are still plenty of soapy and silly and crazy feuds in NXT, but what they've done so expertly is left the title pictures to be about the titles, or what the titles represent for the challengers.

    I know NXT is different or whatever but this should not be a thing that separates the brands. This should just be a universal thing.

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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    Mania 27 through 29 also had worse builds.

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    stevemarks44stevemarks44 Registered User regular
    Nirya wrote: »
    Kilroy wrote: »
    Let's talk less about WM and more about The Young Bucks.

    nirya give steve his account back

    STEVE IS DOING THIS ALL ON HIS OWN WITHOUT ANY PUSH FROM ME AT ALL.

    Full disclosure I am attending Nirya's seminars pretty regularly and paying pretty handsomely for them.

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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    lol wut

    brave new heights wirehead

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    facetiousfacetious a wit so dry it shits sandRegistered User regular
    And like, this discussion puts me in a weird place because I am the first to say "I don't need a storyline to love a technically great match".

    I just.. don't know how many of the matches will actually turn out, storylines aside. The ladder match and Cena/Rusev are the only matches I'm sure will be even good, let alone great. The others have potential, but still seem difficult to justify without proper builds. (And again, the title match is an exception because of the Rumble situation, etc. etc. But I still am far from certain it'll be a great match.)

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    CuvisTheConquerorCuvisTheConqueror They always say "yee haw" but they never ask "haw yee?" Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    I just think there's a dissonance between the build of this Wrestlemania and the build to others, which Im only saying from hearing others. I started watching again around WM30 so I can't say.

    I've been watching this stuff since Mania 4, and I can confirm your impression. I honestly can't remember this much apathy for a WrestleMania, ever. There have been some main events that people weren't interested in, but even then, for the most part, people were still excited for the rest of the card and the show overall.

    Take it for what it's worth, but IMHO, the build for this year's Mania has been botched to an unprecedented level, for so many reasons.

    Yeah I'm sorry I just don't get that line of thought. Mania 17, considered by many as one of the greatest Mania's ever, had a build that was worse than this year's.

    I don't recall 17 having three main event matches where one of the participants was almost completely absent from TV, a main-event face met with apathy and/or hatred by most of the audience being hyped-up to Mary Sue-ish levels, an undercard with zero direction whatsoever, or weeks and weeks of TV crowds that clearly no longer give a shit (for all of the above reasons).

    Maybe the show will be good; we'll see. But the build has been awful.

    CuvisTheConqueror on
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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    lol wut

    brave new heights wirehead

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEh0FCYw3Dk

    I like how that vid leaves out Debra's inclusion which nearly torpedoed the whole thing.

    And I was talking about the card as a whole.

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    stevemarks44stevemarks44 Registered User regular
    Also Legends matches are kind of lame, through no fault of anything but time (older wrestlers are going to be past their prime 99.9% of the time). After last year Taker qualifies as an old guy past his prime. Sting may be gold, but also he may just be an older guy past his prime. One of those on a WM is understandable but two potential old guys gassed matches is scary.

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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    I just think there's a dissonance between the build of this Wrestlemania and the build to others, which Im only saying from hearing others. I started watching again around WM30 so I can't say.

    I've been watching this stuff since Mania 4, and I can confirm your impression. I honestly can't remember this much apathy for a WrestleMania, ever. There have been some main events that people weren't interested in, but even then, for the most part, people were still excited for the rest of the card and the show overall.

    Take it for what it's worth, but IMHO, the build for this year's Mania has been botched to an unprecedented level, for so many reasons.

    Yeah I'm sorry I just don't get that line of thought. Mania 17, considered by many as one of the greatest Mania's ever, had a build that was worse than this year's.

    I don't recall 17 having three main event matches where one of the participants was almost completely absent from TV, a main-event face met with apathy and/or hatred by most of the audience being hyped-up to Mary Sue-ish levels, an undercard with zero direction whatsoever, or weeks and weeks of TV crowds that clearly no longer give a shit (for all of the above reasons).

    Maybe the show will be good; we'll see. But the build has been awful.

    Nearly all the undercard matches for Mania 17 had no direction and were set up weeks before the show.

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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    a single rock/austin face off is a better build then everything they've done for Lesnar and Reigns put together

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    Dyvim TvarDyvim Tvar Registered User regular
    I also agree with future failed title contender facetious that the rumble winner getting a title shot at mania is basically a terrible thing.

    :3

    Everyone is different. Everyone is special.
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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    Mania 17 was a fantastic show despite the build.

    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
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    stevemarks44stevemarks44 Registered User regular
    Dyvim Tvar wrote: »
    I also agree with future failed title contender facetious that the rumble winner getting a title shot at mania is basically a terrible thing.

    :3

    I think shifting the wording to emphasize the rumble winner being the #1 contender rather than "going on to face the champ at wrestlemania" would be smart. The latter seems to put emphases on "who will the champ be?!" which rarely changes in the interim. The former gives the winner a leg up as a contender, and allows for more shifting or plan-changing that doesn't seem odd.

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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    Shane vs Vince nearly stole the whole show and the build was so bad that some were threatening to swear off watching because of it.

    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
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    THEPAIN73THEPAIN73 Shiny. Real shiny.Registered User regular
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    Shane vs Vince nearly stole the whole show and the build was so bad that some were threatening to swear off watching because of it.

    To be fair, that's about the time the wrestling bubble popped so maybe they went through with it after all.

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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    It involved the infamous "Trish barks like a dog" segment.

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    stevemarks44stevemarks44 Registered User regular
    I mean Im unfamiliar with every Wrestlemania build except maybe parts of WM30 and I am not super stoked going into this mania. I think comparing what is worse and what is better is a little futile, as it doesn't make the build for this WM any better or worse.

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    CuvisTheConquerorCuvisTheConqueror They always say "yee haw" but they never ask "haw yee?" Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    Mania 17 was a fantastic show despite the build.

    I'm neither saying Mania 17 had a great build, nor that Mania 31 will be a bad show.

    I'm saying Mania 31's build is even worse than Mania 17's. It's just bad TV at this point.

    Whatever you might say about Mania 17's build, they never lost the audience to the extent they have this year.

    CuvisTheConqueror on
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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    THEPAIN73 wrote: »
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    Shane vs Vince nearly stole the whole show and the build was so bad that some were threatening to swear off watching because of it.

    To be fair, that's about the time the wrestling bubble popped so maybe they went through with it after all.

    They went through with it due to Austin's heel turn and the Invasion debacle.

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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    if you go by viewership it's the worst mania build in a long while

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    David_TDavid_T A fashion yes-man is no good to me. Copenhagen, DenmarkRegistered User regular
    edited March 2015
    Continuing the 96 go-home Raw, we left off with HBK facing Al Snow.

    Shocker! HBK won! After Bret Hart stopped Marty Janetty from grabbing his shorts and then after the match Bret and Shawn did a little push'n'push before Bret went back to commentary to say that he considers Shawn a friend but he'll still win at WrestleMania.

    Match number two is Hunter Hearst Helmsley against Aldo Montoya. Helmsley is here because he's facing the returning Ultimate Warrior at WrestleMania (weird, Hunter facing a face-painted opponent at WrestleMania who doesn't show up on TV before the PPV...). Aldo is here because... well, your guess. Helmsley wins.

    Promo from Goldust, fondling a mannequin in a Hot Rod t-shirt, taped in a "Hollywood backlot" and "edited for television", which I guess means they removed all the graphic sex Goldust had with the mannequin?

    Aww shit, here comes the Undertaker! But first Dok Hendrix wants to sell you a jacket. And a video for Mankind, who will debut on the Raw after WrestleMania. But here's the Undertaker! To stand menacingly in the background while Vince McMahon interviews Paul Bearer. Oh wait, he gets to talk as well. He's facing Diesel at WrestleMania. Sorry, Big Daddy Cool Diesel.

    Oh god. Dok Hendrix and the Raw Band? Thankfully it's cut short by a video package for the WM Iron Man match between Bret and Shawn, but before there were the Nitro Girls, there was Michael Hayes singing with a live band. And they wonder why attendance was down.

    Time for our main event of the evening, it's Owen Hart with Jim Cornette taking on Ahmed Johnson, whose bodybuilding poses draws ooohs from Vince. The British Bulldog comes down and ends up causing a DQ, which brings down the final member of Camp Cornette, the Man They Call Over-Weighter. Sorry, Vader. Jake Roberts and Yokozuna come down as slowly as you can while still technically "making the save" and we get a pier six brawl. Pier two.

    Pier one and a half. Anyway, Ahmed, Jake and Yoko face Camp Cornette in the opening match at WrestleMania, so obviously that's what they main-event the last Raw before WrestleMania with.

    I'm just kidding, the actual main event of the go-home Raw is this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT28F-oSTDQ

    Yeah. We've come a long way.

    Edit: Grr, YouTube! This is the link because you shouldn't be cheated out of the Bret Hart music video they actually ended this show with.

    David_T on
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    facetiousfacetious a wit so dry it shits sandRegistered User regular
    Dyvim Tvar wrote: »
    I also agree with future failed title contender facetious that the rumble winner getting a title shot at mania is basically a terrible thing.

    :3

    I don't think it's necessarily a terrible idea in and of itself.. well, I do, kind of, but you can still work around it.

    They just have.. not worked around it very well. or really at all.

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    Real strong, facetious.

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    facetiousfacetious a wit so dry it shits sandRegistered User regular
    Also you must be looking several years into the future because I will certainly not be a failed title contender in the immediate.

    "I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde
    Real strong, facetious.

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    Dyvim TvarDyvim Tvar Registered User regular
    Dyvim Tvar wrote: »
    I also agree with future failed title contender facetious that the rumble winner getting a title shot at mania is basically a terrible thing.

    :3

    I think shifting the wording to emphasize the rumble winner being the #1 contender rather than "going on to face the champ at wrestlemania" would be smart. The latter seems to put emphases on "who will the champ be?!" which rarely changes in the interim. The former gives the winner a leg up as a contender, and allows for more shifting or plan-changing that doesn't seem odd.

    Yes, jokes about pick 'ems aside I agree with this.

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    CuvisTheConquerorCuvisTheConqueror They always say "yee haw" but they never ask "haw yee?" Registered User regular
    facetious wrote: »
    Dyvim Tvar wrote: »
    I also agree with future failed title contender facetious that the rumble winner getting a title shot at mania is basically a terrible thing.

    :3

    I don't think it's necessarily a terrible idea in and of itself.. well, I do, kind of, but you can still work around it.

    They just have.. not worked around it very well. or really at all.

    Honestly, if they're going to make it work, they should drop the February PPV entirely and move Mania to mid-late March. Having that PPV in the middle just feels like a speed bump.

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    stevemarks44stevemarks44 Registered User regular
    I mean you could've even cobbled together a more coherent new rule-set for Fastlane by saying Bryan is the #1 contender.

    The winner of the Rumble gets the right to wrestle the #1 contender at the Feb ppv. The winner goes on to face the champ at Mania.

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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    Sweet, got my Kevin Owens shirt in the mail.

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    stevemarks44stevemarks44 Registered User regular
    Even thinking more about it, it creates an incredible failsafe. You keep your most over #1 contender wrestler OUT of the rumble and give them another marquee match (avoiding Rumble takeovers by angry crowds). If the crowd responds better or the better story is the rumble winner, great! If not, you have a super hot #1 contender on hold. It seems like a real safe play.

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    KilroyKilroy timaeusTestified Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    facetious wrote: »
    And like, this discussion puts me in a weird place because I am the first to say "I don't need a storyline to love a technically great match".

    I just.. don't know how many of the matches will actually turn out, storylines aside. The ladder match and Cena/Rusev are the only matches I'm sure will be even good, let alone great. The others have potential, but still seem difficult to justify without proper builds. (And again, the title match is an exception because of the Rumble situation, etc. etc. But I still am far from certain it'll be a great match.)

    I don't need a storyline necessarily, but I need a reason to care. I need for there to be one person or team that I want to win and another person or team that I want to fucking lose. Or I need to want everyone to win so that there's tension in seeing who will come out on top

    I can get invested in an indie match between two dudes I've never seen before based soley on how they conduct themselves on the way to the ring

    but with 'mania card this year there isn't really a single match that I care about in any real way

    the tag title match is cesaro and tyson vs. some teams that I don't give a fuck about. I want cesaro and tyson to win, but I'm not burning with desire to see the usos or matadores lose

    I don't give a fuck about cena vs. rusev because cena is acting like a colossal asshole in the name of AMERICA and basically embodying all the aspects of this country that I hate, but there's this huge level of dissonance because they're presenting him as a hero

    I don't really care about the women's match because I really only care about nikki and paige and I would rather see them in a title match

    I don't care about wyatt vs undertaker because wyatt is almost certainly winning and I have no attachment to the undertaker

    I don't really care about hhh vs sting because sting is almost certainly winning and I have no investment in attitude era conflicts

    I don't care about the andre the giant memorial over the top battle royal because it's a big pile of "creative has nothing for you and probably won't have anything for you if you win"

    I don't care about the IC title ladder match because I fucking hate ladder matches

    I don't care about the main event because roman reigns is almost certainly winning and I have no strong feelings at all about roman reigns

    so in short,

    I just
    don't
    care

    Kilroy on
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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    Oops

    wirehead26 on
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