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Warlords of Pigzwolvez [SE++ WoW]

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    ZenyatooZenyatoo Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    Blast furnace is just a really lengthy fight that allows for 0 mistakes.
    We crushed our way through maidens in a little over 8 minutes.
    Blast furnace is like a 12 minute fight even if you do it hyper-speed. If anything, we were shooting ourselves in the feet with the amount of damage we do in phase 1.

    The fight basically requires classes that do strong single target with close to 0 ramp up, for hard burns on elementalists. But also with cleave potential for mopping up post phase 1, and dealing with firecaller/security guard buildup towards the later half of phase 2.

    Im not even sure if there's a spec that does that.

    EDIT:
    thinking about it, retribution paladin is probably really good for blast furnace. Or at least would be if it's dps wasnt hot garbage at the moment.

    Zenyatoo on
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    Seattle ThreadSeattle Thread Registered User regular
    Dammit Dys, I'm trying to be supportive and you're throwing that negative nancy shade

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    That Dave FellaThat Dave Fella Registered User regular
    Zenyatoo wrote: »
    Blast furnace is just a really lengthy fight that allows for 0 mistakes.
    We crushed our way through maidens in a little over 8 minutes.
    Blast furnace is like a 12 minute fight even if you do it hyper-speed. If anything, we were shooting ourselves in the feet with the amount of damage we do in phase 1.

    The fight basically requires classes that do strong single target with close to 0 ramp up, for hard burns on elementalists. But also with cleave potential for mopping up post phase 1, and dealing with firecaller/security guard buildup towards the later half of phase 2.

    Im not even sure if there's a spec that does that.

    EDIT:
    thinking about it, retribution paladin is probably really good for blast furnace. Or at least would be if it's dps wasnt hot garbage at the moment.

    As ret I'm usually one of the classes who do the most damage to the elementalists and I do ok cleave on the rest.

    PSN: ThatDaveFella
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    Seattle ThreadSeattle Thread Registered User regular
    Dammit Dave, stop being so great

    (also, come back for a PAX or just because, we still miss you out here)

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    That Dave FellaThat Dave Fella Registered User regular
    I beat @beasteh on gruul. Cause he's a bad.

    PSN: ThatDaveFella
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    BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    im shit

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    That Dave FellaThat Dave Fella Registered User regular
    I'm just this social casual who outgears a bunch of Raiders.

    PSN: ThatDaveFella
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    That Dave FellaThat Dave Fella Registered User regular
    8-)

    PSN: ThatDaveFella
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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    the only thing we need for Furnace now is 10 more people. Our P3 attempt was sort of a disaster and it still got to 50%. We were probably about a 200ms late Last Stand cooldown from winning, as I am sure had I not died, Zeny would have been able to live long enough for me to reset my stacks

    Apart from 10 more people, I've noted in our theorycrafting of the fight we have a pattern that goes something like... "wow this fight is great for cleave..." everyone specs cleave, suddenly we can't kill an elementalist and our engineers die too fast... "ok actually cleave is a treacherous bitch-devil, we need to tunnel everything"... everyone specs tunnel, we get massive add accumulation at the end of P1, Feldspar is living to the first Firecallers, which is almost a wipe.

    In Phase 2 we need some role assignments for when the call to sweep ads is made

    if you have 10 DPS, I think we pick our 3 most punishing cleavers and have them sell out for cleave, talent-wise. That's your add-kill group. Then you pick 2 tunelling RPDS and put them on excess slag duty. Particularly ones that are fixating healers. When we do actually get to P3, we end up with like 7-8 slags hanging around. Nobody needs that. The rest of the tunellers focus down firecallers and identify the next slag target for the elementalist. Then naturall EVERYONE including the tanks DPS the elementalist like last night

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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Warcraft logs now tells you how many selfies are taken during combat in the 'problems' tab

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    WaltWalt Waller Arcane Enchanted Frozen ElectrifiedRegistered User regular
    Clearly the solution is to have some kind of DPS stance for healers so they can help focus down Primalists.

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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    The elementalists damage is fine. The only time we weren't killing the elementalists in one go was when they were being healed by a cauterize. We should focus on being better at interrupting those if we want to fix that particular problem.

    And it's not worth focusing on slags ever, unless you're breaking a shield. Even if you manage to kill one, they don't actually die, they just get rezzed to full health again after a few seconds. Their damage is middling and not worth worrying about. They can be cleaved if there are any around when we're culling the other adds, but there's no reason to focus down something that's just going to get up again and join its buddies 15 seconds later.

    Our transition to phase 2 has always been sloppy because despite all of our progress we haven't really gotten good at phase 1, yet. That won't happen until we're able to reliably get both regulators down before the third operator drops. I think our best attempts happened when we would do a sweep for adds between every elementalist kill, since there usually were some firecallers up at that point by the time it was dead. Firecallers are also all kinds of stunnable/CCable, so if a firecaller spawns while we're bursting down an elementalist, I don't think there's anything wrong with throwing out a sheep/hex/paralyze/cyclone just to prevent any last minute heals going out

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    PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    There was an attempt last night where we went into phase 2 with all healers at full mana and everyone at damn-near full life. Killed second elementalist and everything looked REALLY good. Go to third elementalist, knock her down, call for cleavetown and everybody takes their fucking insane pills and 3 DPS die in 2 seconds. I don't even have any idea what killed them, but that attempt was going perfect until that point. We need to do more of the first 5 minutes of that and less of the shit show part at the end.

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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    i didn't know slags respawned, that changes things

    and yeah what Pin said. I thought that was going to be our kill and suddenly lol no adds died

    I will admit though that it's very very hard to get a good add kill pile going. Firecallers are hard to attract because of their casting and sometimes they will stand in shields for an extra long time. We just need to be patient and take a hard look around the room before we start looking for slags to punch. Firecallers often emerge from the opposite side of the room and do a lot of bullshit before they actually become attackable

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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    I do agree that this fight, more than most, scales funny, though. Even if the numbers are tuned correct, the mechanics themselves lend to having more people being easier. More people to run bombs, more people to interrupt/CC, etc. There were definitely problems with people who normally run bombs also getting rupture or whatever, with no one to pick up that slack.

    That being said, it is generally more beneficial for ranged to stand closer to the corners of the room, by the regulators? On the flanks, away from where we'll be spending phase 2, seems like a good spot to put ruptures, and a shorter run to the heat regulators would definitely make it easier to help with bombs, or to make it in time without a speed boost

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    PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    That one attempt where Rhylith got hit by Rupture and I got a bomb at the same time was a hilarious example of why I don't particularly care for how the mechanics in this fight work. It's not quite as bad as the level 60 Four Horsemen where if a single taunt is resisted it's a wipe, but it feels like RNG can just fuck you at random.

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    The Cow KingThe Cow King a island Registered User regular
    Blast furnace is the fight where I wish shuriken toss and deadly throw where switched on rogues talents and ranged interupt would be awesome on BF/the tree would make more sense.

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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    I only looked at your logs briefly but it looks like you have a lot of bombs missing regulators. That's gonna contribute mightily to issues with add buildup (and heat, but that's not such a big deal really.) I'm not sure how reliable warcraftlogs is at tracking this, but it also says that at least some adds were in shields for a long time. Which isn't necessarily such a big deal either, but it prevents them from soaking up residual aoe.
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    There was an attempt last night where we went into phase 2 with all healers at full mana and everyone at damn-near full life. Killed second elementalist and everything looked REALLY good. Go to third elementalist, knock her down, call for cleavetown and everybody takes their fucking insane pills and 3 DPS die in 2 seconds. I don't even have any idea what killed them, but that attempt was going perfect until that point. We need to do more of the first 5 minutes of that and less of the shit show part at the end.

    My guess would be slag explosions?

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Either that, or people standing too close to each other when they had volatile fire

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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    in one attempt, maybe our "good but then bad attempt" we did have a few slags get cleaved to death near DPS.

    there is a DBM warning that I believe is off by default that will tell you when a Slag is blowing up near you. highly recommended

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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    I only looked at your logs briefly but it looks like you have a lot of bombs missing regulators. That's gonna contribute mightily to issues with add buildup (and heat, but that's not such a big deal really.) I'm not sure how reliable warcraftlogs is at tracking this, but it also says that at least some adds were in shields for a long time. Which isn't necessarily such a big deal either, but it prevents them from soaking up residual aoe.
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    There was an attempt last night where we went into phase 2 with all healers at full mana and everyone at damn-near full life. Killed second elementalist and everything looked REALLY good. Go to third elementalist, knock her down, call for cleavetown and everybody takes their fucking insane pills and 3 DPS die in 2 seconds. I don't even have any idea what killed them, but that attempt was going perfect until that point. We need to do more of the first 5 minutes of that and less of the shit show part at the end.

    My guess would be slag explosions?

    I was wondering about the bombs too, but we always seem to go into phase 2 with some engineers still throwing out bombs, and I have no idea if it's counting those or not. There were some times that no one was taking bombs from the bags though, so id try to make a second pass, but run out of time because id pick up a bomb with literally 1s before it exploded

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    DysDys how am I even using this gun Registered User regular
    Dammit Dys, I'm trying to be supportive and you're throwing that negative nancy shade

    I said "yet!"

    I'm hopeful we'll get it soon enough.

    Honestly I really like the fight from what we've done of it so far.

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    ZayZay yes i am zay Registered User regular
    All I'm saying is if we count the bombs like I was sayin it'll make it all way smoother

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    Lord DaveLord Dave Grief Causer Bitch Free ZoneRegistered User regular
    Aka don't fuckin' mess up bombs or tunnel engineers

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    ZayZay yes i am zay Registered User regular
    Actually do tunnel engineers (when the time is right)

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    Lord DaveLord Dave Grief Causer Bitch Free ZoneRegistered User regular
    That was shorthand for "don't interrupt bombs, don't stun/knock engineers, run every bomb, don't kill engineers until just after the next one shows up" but I am realizing shorthand is a bad idea when mechanics are still getting messed up after 8 hours

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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    like I said last night its hard to summarize the right way to do P1 in a single sentence.

    I thought Team 1 had it picture perfect for a majority of attempts. we should just like... take a video or something

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    AngryAngry The glory I had witnessed was just a sleight of handRegistered User regular
    To be fair we also didn't deal with rupture and had 4 very good movement abilities.

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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Rupture is a pain, but not a deal-breakwer when it comes to running bombs. The void zones it creates don't really mess with anything aside from some extra damage. The range to explode bombs on regulators is pretty big. It's a pain, certainly, but potentially mangeable. Probably worth popping a personal cooldown to help with the damage, though

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    MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    The strat that worked for my guild on Blast Furnace in P2 was one tank grabs the security guards and the second tank grabs Firecallers and positions them in the melee pile around the designated elementalist. This ensured the Firecallers died quickly followed shortly by the elementalist, without the Firecaller getting shields.

    Madican on
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    rhylithrhylith Death Rabbits HoustonRegistered User regular
    I only looked at your logs briefly but it looks like you have a lot of bombs missing regulators. That's gonna contribute mightily to issues with add buildup (and heat, but that's not such a big deal really.) I'm not sure how reliable warcraftlogs is at tracking this, but it also says that at least some adds were in shields for a long time. Which isn't necessarily such a big deal either, but it prevents them from soaking up residual aoe.
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    There was an attempt last night where we went into phase 2 with all healers at full mana and everyone at damn-near full life. Killed second elementalist and everything looked REALLY good. Go to third elementalist, knock her down, call for cleavetown and everybody takes their fucking insane pills and 3 DPS die in 2 seconds. I don't even have any idea what killed them, but that attempt was going perfect until that point. We need to do more of the first 5 minutes of that and less of the shit show part at the end.

    My guess would be slag explosions?

    We had some issues early in the night with the bomb bag where people who either couldn't or shouldn't have been able to run bombs were having to adjust and try to get them quickly enough with varying results. We ended up working a chunk of it out by the end of the night.

    BF is not a good fight to be shorthanded on.

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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    The strat that worked for my guild on Blast Furnace in P2 was one tank grabs the security guards and the second tank grabs Firecallers and positions them in the melee pile around the designated elementalist. This ensured the Firecallers died quickly followed shortly by the elementalist, without the Firecaller getting shields.

    thats basically what we do with some very minor variations. I've been the firecaller grabber and my biggest issue is I just have no ranged threat at all and usually a taunt isn't enough to get them to thunderclap range. And dragging the pile to go pick one of them up typically hasn't gone well

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    ZenyatooZenyatoo Registered User regular
    I mean, we'll come at it on tuesday.
    We'll (hopefully) have enough DPS such that the healers arent having to run bombs.
    And we'll re-work out how much cleave we need to be doing.

    Our biggest issue is that if anything we do too much damage in phase 1. We have almost always (on my side at least) been killing that first engineer too quickly. We need to be able to cleave him low, but also shutoff all damage to him, even if he's standing on top of the other enemies. That's generally speaking not possible for prot paladin, and I dont know how possible/impossible it is for other classes.

    Once we've got our engineers into a comfortable position on damage, we'll be making it out of phase 1 without issues.


    Regarding the elementalists and being healed, etc. I think over all of our attempts, it happened ~5 times. And I think 2 of those were in the same fight. We can certainly attempt to get better at interrupting cauterize, but im not sure that it's making or breaking us (Certainly when it goes off it's pretty much game over, but I dont know that we even have the consistent basics down at the moment.)


    I dont know if maybe we want to consider having me pick up the firecallers instead. I believe brig was on them because it meant he would be on top of the elementalist for dispels, but given how we started to do that phase (bringing the guards in) you would be on top of them anyway?
    I have some pretty potent ranged attention grabbers, one of which straight up interrupts spells

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    The Cow KingThe Cow King a island Registered User regular
    edited March 2015
    Blast furnace is the fight where I wish shuriken toss and deadly throw where switched on rogues talents and ranged interupt would be awesome on BF/the tree would make more sense.

    wait I'm dumb they are in the positions I want them in

    wait it takes 5 combo points to interrupt that is probably the reason I looked at deadly throw then decided to completely forget about it's existence

    The Cow King on
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    AdusAdus Registered User regular
    well we'll have less cleave/aoe now that i realized i can't use earthquake in phase 1.

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    Lord DaveLord Dave Grief Causer Bitch Free ZoneRegistered User regular
    Yeah I'd think Avenger's Shield would be by far the best option for Firecaller pickup

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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Lord Dave wrote: »
    Yeah I'd think Avenger's Shield would be by far the best option for Firecaller pickup

    Agreed. Once they're gathered, and if we can get them with the elementalists, it seems like a simple task to keep them locked down

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    ZayZay yes i am zay Registered User regular
    it might help if the people in our raid like

    use their swords to just cut the enemy's head off?

    not sure why nobody has thought of it before

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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    I don't actually have a sword, I just use magic to pretend

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    ZayZay yes i am zay Registered User regular
    maybe you should get some faster acting poisons, then

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