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Climate Change or: How I Stopped Worrying and Love Rising Sea Levels

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Posts

  • OghulkOghulk Aka Mr. RIBS Aka Andre 3001Registered User regular
    The proposals I've seen for carbon taxes are to use that money to redistribute back to lower income folk

    raoADVy.png
  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    Oghulk wrote: »
    The proposals I've seen for carbon taxes are to use that money to redistribute back to lower income folk

    The Canadian federal government is doing that.

    The Ontario provincial government is doing the reverse.

    :sad:

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited December 6
    From what I've read on carbon taxes, all currently implemented or proposed ones are an order of magnitude or so short from what they need to be to have the economic effect of phasing out fossil fuels.

    Jephery on
    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
    Shorty
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Ocasio-Cortez has been taking an interesting political approach in trying to frame climate change legislation as a national aspiration akin to the Apollo program.

    kimeGiggles_Funsworthskyknyt
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Ocasio-Cortez has been taking an interesting political approach in trying to frame climate change legislation as a national aspiration akin to the Apollo program.

    But we got bored of that as soon as we beat the Russians.

    PhillishereCommander ZoomGnome-InterruptusJaysonFour
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Ocasio-Cortez has been taking an interesting political approach in trying to frame climate change legislation as a national aspiration akin to the Apollo program.

    But we got bored of that as soon as we beat the Russians.

    Yeah but you cant beat the sun

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Ocasio-Cortez has been taking an interesting political approach in trying to frame climate change legislation as a national aspiration akin to the Apollo program.

    But we got bored of that as soon as we beat the Russians.

    Yeah but you cant beat the sun

    There are literally proposals out now to hang huge sun shields in space or release reflective particles in the atmosphere. War with the sun is definitely on the table.

    AuralynxCommander ZoomGnome-InterruptusForarHacksawSorceGiggles_FunsworthIncenjucarLord_Asmodeus
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Joking aside "how do we keep climate change efforts going 40 years from now" is not a question for now when we still lack the will to act at all.

    Treating the issue as a national aspiration, something to take pride in, seems to me a more fruitful approach than one about duty and sin.

    [Expletive deleted]SealElvenshaeAuralynxFencingsaxthatassemblyguywanderingHacksawkimeLovelySorceZilla360Giggles_FunsworthHefflingCrimson KingskyknytLord_AsmodeusmageormikeShortyBloodsheedMortal Sky
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Ocasio-Cortez has been taking an interesting political approach in trying to frame climate change legislation as a national aspiration akin to the Apollo program.

    But we got bored of that as soon as we beat the Russians.

    Yeah but you cant beat the sun

    TryCatchersilence1186TNTrooperwanderingLovelyAridholLord_AsmodeusJaysonFour38thDoe
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited December 6
    Joking aside "how do we keep climate change efforts going 40 years from now" is not a question for now when we still lack the will to act at all.

    Treating the issue as a national aspiration, something to take pride in, seems to me a more fruitful approach than one about duty and sin.

    Specially because duty and sin haven't made people more likely to care about race relationships, so why it should work on climate change again?

    (Also I think that that pseudo original sins are creepy, but that's me).

    EDIT: Is also a counter argument to "We are screwed thanks to China anyways so who cares" and "I'm an embarassed millionare that will totally get to the biodomes of the rich".

    TryCatcher on
    Styrofoam Sammichelectricitylikesme
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Joking aside "how do we keep climate change efforts going 40 years from now" is not a question for now when we still lack the will to act at all.

    Treating the issue as a national aspiration, something to take pride in, seems to me a more fruitful approach than one about duty and sin.

    Specially because duty and sin haven't made people more likely to care about race relationships, so why it should work on climate change again?

    EDIT: Is also a counter argument to "We are screwed thanks to China anyways so who cares" and "I'm an embarassed millionare that will totally get to the biodomes of the rich".

    People like to believe in things, they like to have concrete reasons to feel pride in their country. As a nation we're rightfully proud of our space program. We could do the same for environmental efforts.

    Auralynx
  • Kayne Red RobeKayne Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
    *Gestures meaningfully at a portrait of the 26th President*

    Teddy probably would be a good place to start mining for ideas conflating environmentalism and patriotism.

    PhillishereElvenshaeStyrofoam SammichYoshisummonsdestroyah87KruiteFencingsaxSkeithDacTNTrooperthatassemblyguySmrtnikGiggles_FunsworthIncenjucarLord_AsmodeusJaysonFour
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    *Gestures meaningfully at a portrait of the 26th President*

    Teddy probably would be a good place to start mining for ideas conflating environmentalism and patriotism.

    I think the big problem with U.S. politics is that progress is on hold until the boomers die off, but we don't have that kind of time with climate change.

    SpoitFencingsaxDacHacksawGiggles_FunsworthShorty
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    *Gestures meaningfully at a portrait of the 26th President*

    Teddy probably would be a good place to start mining for ideas conflating environmentalism and patriotism.

    I think the big problem with U.S. politics is that progress is on hold until the boomers die off, but we don't have that kind of time with climate change.
    muderis3_8175.png

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    XaquinElvenshaeInkstain82OrcaSleepL Ron HowardJragghenTofystedethdestroyah87FencingsaxHappylilElfJebus314SkeithCommander Zoomemp123Gnome-Interruptussilence1186ForarTNTrooperKarozkimeLovelyKayne Red RobeShadowfireSorceZilla360Giggles_FunsworthHefflingAridholMvrckLord_AsmodeusBigJoeMfurlionBloodsheedJaysonFour38thDoe
  • OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited December 6
    Guys, I wasn't trying to say gas taxes are not regressive at all. Wasn't trying to True Scotsman poor people either. Just saying that as you get farther down in income level, lower percentages of people own cars, so that it's not quite as regressive as say, sales tax.

    I do firmly believe increasing gax taxes is a good idea overall. Demand for driving is more elastic than people seem to think it is, even in car-dependent North America, let alone in a place like France with vastly superior public transport. We see this every time gas prices go up. People drive less, car sales fall, and so on. We also see numerous other examples which confirm it, not only based on money, but also based on the time-cost of driving: When you build a wide new superhighway, lots more people start driving to fill it up to capacity again. Induced demand--which works in reverse too by making driving more expensive.

    But that said, I'm not saying "lower gas taxes and do nothing to help the people it hurts", either. Like I said, it needs to be met with increased public transportation investment, increased government-subsidized urban housing. This kills two birds with one stone because it increases the migration into dense urban centers (really good for reducing emissions) and helps people to not depend on the cars you're now taxing more heavily.

    And of course throughout the world generally but especially in the US there should be better overall social support particularly for lower and lower middle class people. But that's a topic for another thread.

    OremLK on
  • mRahmanimRahmani DetroitRegistered User regular
    The elasticity of driving varies from location to location. If you're in the Boston metro area (or Seattle/NYC/any other established urban center), sure you can get around fine without a car. You may even be better off without one.

    You live in Detroit? You need a car. I could run an entire website just posting pictures of the rolling shitpiles tooling around Detroit. People can't afford to insure them or register them. They can't afford brakes or tires. Often the cars have been wrecked, sometimes multiple times, or have gaping holes rusted through the bodywork and frame, but people need to get to work, so as long as the demolition-derby-reject fires up in the morning, they're pumping in gas and driving to work.

    You pump up the price of gas, these people don't drive less. They just eat less.

    destroyah87Styrofoam SammichSleepElvenshaeTryCatcherSorceCalicaGiggles_FunsworthHefflingskyknytGnome-Interruptusdispatch.oShortyBloodsheed
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Realistically people are going to need to drive less and operating most cars will get more expensive, but you have to offset that with real and aggressive public transportation expansions. Not just an extra bus line here or there.

    [Expletive deleted]mrondeauSleepmRahmaniAuralynxKarozdestroyah87SkeithElvenshaeHacksawkimeDoobhMeeqeTryCatcherFencingsaxCalicaGiggles_FunsworthHefflingOremLKskyknytGnome-Interruptusdispatch.oShortyJaysonFourMortal Sky
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited December 6
    *Gestures meaningfully at a portrait of the 26th President*

    Teddy probably would be a good place to start mining for ideas conflating environmentalism and patriotism.

    I think the big problem with U.S. politics is that progress is on hold until the boomers die off, but we don't have that kind of time with climate change.

    The Boomers aren't the problem, white supremacy is the problem. Boomers are actually marginally more liberal than Gen X.

    Also, in we're fucked news, EPA is destroying the Obama administration's rules on coal plants.

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Sleep
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Putting the opposition to climate change legislation down to "white supremacy" is going to yield a lot of surprises once you start trying to change things.

    discrider
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    *Gestures meaningfully at a portrait of the 26th President*

    Teddy probably would be a good place to start mining for ideas conflating environmentalism and patriotism.

    I think the big problem with U.S. politics is that progress is on hold until the boomers die off, but we don't have that kind of time with climate change.

    The Boomers aren't the problem, white supremacy is the problem. Boomers are actually marginally more liberal than Gen X.

    Also, in we're fucked news, EPA is destroying the Obama administration's rules on coal plants.

    "We made a little progress, so the problem's solved and we don't need any of the solutions anymore. Go us!"

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    *Gestures meaningfully at a portrait of the 26th President*

    Teddy probably would be a good place to start mining for ideas conflating environmentalism and patriotism.

    I think the big problem with U.S. politics is that progress is on hold until the boomers die off, but we don't have that kind of time with climate change.

    The Boomers aren't the problem, white supremacy is the problem. Boomers are actually marginally more liberal than Gen X.

    Also, in we're fucked news, EPA is destroying the Obama administration's rules on coal plants.

    "We made a little progress, so the problem's solved and we don't need any of the solutions anymore. Go us!"

    That's the same "logic" used for killing the VRA.

    destroyah87kimeCommander ZoomCouscousSmrtnikSpoitZilla360emp123Gnome-Interruptus38thDoe
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    hippofant wrote: »
    Oghulk wrote: »
    The proposals I've seen for carbon taxes are to use that money to redistribute back to lower income folk

    The Canadian federal government is doing that.

    The Ontario provincial government is doing the reverse.

    :sad:

    I am consistently surprised by the things I see Ontario doing.

    Not because it's surprising so much as just... from America it looks kind of weird.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    *Gestures meaningfully at a portrait of the 26th President*

    Teddy probably would be a good place to start mining for ideas conflating environmentalism and patriotism.

    I think the big problem with U.S. politics is that progress is on hold until the boomers die off, but we don't have that kind of time with climate change.

    The Boomers aren't the problem, white supremacy is the problem. Boomers are actually marginally more liberal than Gen X.

    Also, in we're fucked news, EPA is destroying the Obama administration's rules on coal plants.

    Nah, it's straight collaboration vs self-interest stuff, not simply white supremacy.
    Self-interest is real bad at collective action problems.

    I'm personally at the point of equivocating collaboration vs self-interest as good vs evil.

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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited December 7
    discrider wrote: »
    *Gestures meaningfully at a portrait of the 26th President*

    Teddy probably would be a good place to start mining for ideas conflating environmentalism and patriotism.

    I think the big problem with U.S. politics is that progress is on hold until the boomers die off, but we don't have that kind of time with climate change.

    The Boomers aren't the problem, white supremacy is the problem. Boomers are actually marginally more liberal than Gen X.

    Also, in we're fucked news, EPA is destroying the Obama administration's rules on coal plants.

    Nah, it's straight collaboration vs self-interest stuff, not simply white supremacy.
    Self-interest is real bad at collective action problems.

    I'm personally at the point of equivocating collaboration vs self-interest as good vs evil.

    I think the white nationalists have already realized, or will realize soon, that climate change is mostly going to affect the global south at first, and happens to be a way to turn Earth into a white's only planet if they can get the global north to gun down climate refugees instead of helping them.

    Jephery on
    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Calica wrote: »
    Gas taxes are regressive anyway. You can't tax [thing] to discourage use of [thing] when a substantial number of people* are dependent on [thing] to live and have no viable alternatives.

    *consumers, that is, not producers

    Yeah, but [thing] is going to cause loss of life, mass crop failures, and destruction along every coastline. I'm not sure the nature of the way we discourage it's use can really fit with modern economic policy terminology.

    "[Thing] is going to kill people elsewhere, so let's preemptively kill* our own people to mitigate that." Besides being morally dubious, that's a hard sell.

    *No, I'm not being hyperbolic. People might not immediately drop dead because gas prices went up, but the health and lifespan consequences of poverty show up very clearly on the population level.

    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Calica wrote: »
    Gas taxes are regressive anyway. You can't tax [thing] to discourage use of [thing] when a substantial number of people* are dependent on [thing] to live and have no viable alternatives.

    *consumers, that is, not producers

    Yeah, but [thing] is going to cause loss of life, mass crop failures, and destruction along every coastline. I'm not sure the nature of the way we discourage it's use can really fit with modern economic policy terminology.

    "[Thing] is going to kill people elsewhere, so let's preemptively kill* our own people to mitigate that." Besides being morally dubious, that's a hard sell.

    *No, I'm not being hyperbolic. People might not immediately drop dead because gas prices went up, but the health and lifespan consequences of poverty show up very clearly on the population level.

    This is a silly position to take. If raising gas taxes at all will literally kill people then your position must at least be that the price of gas must be subsidized and capped, not market driven

    Magic Box
    Academician Prokhor "Phyphor" Zakharov, Chief Scientist of China, Provost of the University of Planet - SE++ Megagame
  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    The price of gas is subsidized and soft capped.

    camo_sig.png
    KarozFencingsax
  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    This is a pretty large range then for something that is price-capped
    fotw915.png?itok=1VpR5uUt

    Magic Box
    Academician Prokhor "Phyphor" Zakharov, Chief Scientist of China, Provost of the University of Planet - SE++ Megagame
  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Calica wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Calica wrote: »
    Gas taxes are regressive anyway. You can't tax [thing] to discourage use of [thing] when a substantial number of people* are dependent on [thing] to live and have no viable alternatives.

    *consumers, that is, not producers

    Yeah, but [thing] is going to cause loss of life, mass crop failures, and destruction along every coastline. I'm not sure the nature of the way we discourage it's use can really fit with modern economic policy terminology.

    "[Thing] is going to kill people elsewhere, so let's preemptively kill* our own people to mitigate that." Besides being morally dubious, that's a hard sell.

    *No, I'm not being hyperbolic. People might not immediately drop dead because gas prices went up, but the health and lifespan consequences of poverty show up very clearly on the population level.

    This is a silly position to take. If raising gas taxes at all will literally kill people then your position must at least be that the price of gas must be subsidized and capped, not market driven

    Sounds fine to me, as long as it's combined with efforts to make gasoline and/or cars unnecessary for most people.

    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    *Gestures meaningfully at a portrait of the 26th President*

    Teddy probably would be a good place to start mining for ideas conflating environmentalism and patriotism.

    I think the big problem with U.S. politics is that progress is on hold until the boomers die off, but we don't have that kind of time with climate change.

    The Boomers aren't the problem, white supremacy is the problem. Boomers are actually marginally more liberal than Gen X.

    Also, in we're fucked news, EPA is destroying the Obama administration's rules on coal plants.

    "We made a little progress, so the problem's solved and we don't need any of the solutions anymore. Go us!"

    Honestly this sucks but coal is going to die regardless due to fracking. It was not the obama regulations hurting coal it was how easy it is to get natural gas that burns a lot cleaner. Not ideal but I don't see the roll back of rules being a major long term issue simply because coal even with those changes can't compete.

  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    This is a pretty large range then for something that is price-capped
    fotw915.png?itok=1VpR5uUt

    Compared to most other countries the price that we pay for gas in the US most certainly lower and more stable. And I made a point to say it was a soft cap. Soft as in it can fluctuate a bit but is never going to get into price gouging territory. The US strategic oil reserve guarantees we won't see prices spike up to something truly crazy like $10 a gallon. According to your own graph the price has been soft-capped at $4 a gallon since we started producing the stuff.

    camo_sig.png
  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    I know we were just talking about the lack of bugs a page or so ago, but I found this gem while searching for another one of my posts. Really prescient, if you ask me.

    One more major problem is the potential collapse of insects. Bees and butterflies have been the most noticeable, but like the collapse of the ocean's ecosystems, we land dwellers can be just as rightly fucked.

    https://www.legalreader.com/people-finally-noticing-insect-collapse/
    In the early 1900s, Iowa’s prairies were home to three hundred of species of plants, another 300 species of birds, tens of species of mammals, and uncounted hundreds upon hundreds of insect species. Fast forward to late summer 2012, when the air should have been buzzing with bugs, and you’d find rather few. One survey of an Iowan cornfield turned up exactly six creatures we might call bugs. (Not simply six species – six individual bugs.) Two grasshoppers, an ant, a red mite, and a cobweb spider eating a crane fly. Otherwise, silence.

  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    It reminds me of all the science fiction about the technological singularity completely divorcing humanity from dependence on nature, which has been interpreted in dystopian and utopian ways.

    Humans living in glass domes on a dead Earth is either hell or paradise.

    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
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  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    It reminds me of all the science fiction about the technological singularity completely divorcing humanity from dependence on nature, which has been interpreted in dystopian and utopian ways.

    Humans living in glass domes on a dead Earth is either hell or paradise.

    If Logan's Run is to be believed, its both at the same time.

    Fencingsax
  • CogCog I'm festive as fuck. Registered User regular
    edited December 10
    Pesticides may have a lot to do with that as well.

    EDIT: From a personal perspective, in Iowa, I used to dread the yearly coming of the June bugs, but I honestly can't say I've seen any in the last couple years. We still get a shitload of boxelders, and there's always a couple of wasp nests to find at a few points every spring, but I haven't seen Asian beetles in a while, June bugs are more or less gone, and there's way less fireflies than there used to be.

    Oh, and of course fucking mosquitoes and flies. Couldn't have those fuckers be the first to go, could we.

    Cog on
    destroyah87
  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    Who'd have thought that hosing down vast swaths of the world with DDT might have have side effects?

    camo_sig.png
    Sleepdestroyah87SorceHacksawCogShortyHeffling
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Who'd have thought that hosing down vast swaths of the world with DDT might have have side effects?

    Rachel Carson.

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited 4:42PM
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Who'd have thought that hosing down vast swaths of the world with DDT might have have side effects?

    The scary part of insect collapse is that insects are basically immune to mass extinction. KT was a blip on their radar, Eocene Thermal Maximum was actually a boon for them.

    Insects have only suffered one mass extinction, and that was the Great Dying.

    The end of the world as we know it is business as usual for insects. It needs to be the literal end of the world for them to care.

    Hevach at
    SleepBliss 101
  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Who'd have thought that hosing down vast swaths of the world with DDT might have have side effects?

    The scary part of insect collapse is that insects are basically immune to mass extinction. KT was a blip on their radar, Eocene Thermal Maximum was actually a boon for them.

    Insects have only suffered one mass extinction, and that was the Great Dying.

    The end of the world as we know it is business as usual for insects. It needs to be the literal end of the world for them to care.

    Also there's some horrible irony in the fact that the pests targeted by insecticides are generally the first to develop resistance. So while most insect species are still extremely sensitive to DDT, mosquitoes and bedbugs have been increasingly resistant to it for decades. For an insect to become a significant threat to crops or public health, it needs to reproduce rapidly, which in turn also speeds up its evolution towards coping with whatever methods we use to control them. So we're losing all the species that are useful in some way (to us and/or to the ecosystem), until eventually I guess we'll be left with only insects that make us miserable.

    (Here I'm assuming the collapse is due to insecticides, which afaik hasn't been definitively shown to be the case yet.)

    MSL59.jpg
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