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[Formula One & motorsport] Round 16, Russia: In Soviet Russia, V12 drives you!

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Posts

  • Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    altid wrote: »
    On Max
    He was penalized for passing with all four wheels off the track. It's a contentious one certainly. On the one hand rules are rules, the track has limits that have to be respected. On the other is the question of if he actually gained an advantage from it. There have been drivers that have got away with far worse in the past (e.g. Rosberg).

    Either way, I hear it's being appealed.
    Of course he did - he made a pass up the inside which would have been literally impossible if he had kept just one wheel inside the track boundary lines.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    altid wrote: »
    On Max
    He was penalized for passing with all four wheels off the track. It's a contentious one certainly. On the one hand rules are rules, the track has limits that have to be respected. On the other is the question of if he actually gained an advantage from it. There have been drivers that have got away with far worse in the past (e.g. Rosberg).

    Either way, I hear it's being appealed.
    Wait, what? That's not a question at this point. How can it be? He gained a position he would have otherwise not been able to gain. If that's not "gaining a clear advantage", than nothing qualifies. What Rosberg got away with some nebulous time in the past is immaterial to what Max got penalized for Sunday. His entire car was off the track and he made a pass because of it. Was it exciting? Hell yeah. Was it completely illegal? Hell yeah.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    To be fair, I wrote that before the replays were available and had no strong opinion one way or the other. He clearly left the track. Ultimately I don't think he gained a huge advantage from it, he would have been past Kimi if he'd stayed on the track (and yes, there was room) but it was an advantage nonetheless. The Red Bull argument was that Kimi had forced him off the track - he didn't, but that's how Max saw it at the time. Ultimately the penalty was fair.

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Incredibly clumsy driving by Vettel at best.

  • JazzJazz Registered User regular
    That Renault issue for Hulkenberg sounded troubling. Listening to the engineer, I'm glad he was alright. I want to know more about that particular issue and how it could've been so threatening to the driver's safety.

  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    This was an interesting race, to put it mildly.
    All the Renault retirements do not bode well for McLaren next year....

    Hamilton was such a non-entity out there. Vettel was cruising along until he was in fourth, and the gap to Raikonnen was just too much. Interesting for the two leaders in the championship to have such dismal races.

    Brundle mentioned that Stroll was 'feast or famine', and yeah. Like, he can drive, but so often he just doesn't do anything. Here's hoping he develops further at Williams because I like having a Canadian driver in F1.

    Good fight from Alonso today. For such a talented driver to have to sit in the mid pack through the later stages of his career must be tough, but McLaren is my team, and maybe they can turn it around before he retires.

  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    I think mcclaren is so cursed that they're causing renault engines to break before they even get them in their car.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Red Bull need to hire Kvyat after every race so that they can fire him each week.


    Nova_C wrote: »
    Brundle mentioned that Stroll was 'feast or famine', and yeah. Like, he can drive, but so often he just doesn't do anything. Here's hoping he develops further at Williams because I like having a Canadian driver in F1.

    I looked up the driver rankings because I haven't actually been watching the way the points have been falling in the mid-pack. The way it feels like Stroll and Williams in general have been doing, I did not expect to see it go Top-6, FIs, Sainz, and then Stroll. I would've bet a big ol' stack that Massa's consistent performance had him up on Stroll in points, and that Stroll would be like, I'm not even sure, I guess mid-Hasses/McLarens?

    10th and beating Massa is not what I expected, and I imagine he'll be in it for a few more years if he can consistently beat his teammate, even if it's in weird bursts and spurts.

    Khavall on
  • DrovekDrovek Registered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    This was an interesting race, to put it mildly.
    Good fight from Alonso today. For such a talented driver to have to sit in the mid pack through the later stages of his career must be tough, but McLaren is my team, and maybe they can turn it around before he retires.
    On the one hand, I'm not sure if Hamilton's car had something because it took him quite a while to catch up and get going. On the other, that was some awesome racing by Alonso that it's even sadder that he's stuck in such underperforming cars.

    steam_sig.png( < . . .
  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    I was thinking yesterday that if the engine/chassis split at mclaren is as rumoured, they should be roughly on par with Red Bull next year which should be very interesting to see indeed.

    Of course yes, as above they will probably find some way to fuck it up but on paper...

    7qmGNt5.png
    D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    Khavall wrote: »
    Red Bull need to hire Kvyat after every race so that they can fire him each week.


    Nova_C wrote: »
    Brundle mentioned that Stroll was 'feast or famine', and yeah. Like, he can drive, but so often he just doesn't do anything. Here's hoping he develops further at Williams because I like having a Canadian driver in F1.

    I looked up the driver rankings because I haven't actually been watching the way the points have been falling in the mid-pack. The way it feels like Stroll and Williams in general have been doing, I did not expect to see it go Top-6, FIs, Sainz, and then Stroll. I would've bet a big ol' stack that Massa's consistent performance had him up on Stroll in points, and that Stroll would be like, I'm not even sure, I guess mid-Hasses/McLarens?

    10th and beating Massa is not what I expected, and I imagine he'll be in it for a few more years if he can consistently beat his teammate, even if it's in weird bursts and spurts.
    To be fair, they are pretty close on points, and the big difference is the podium spot that Stroll got in Azerbaijan. That's 15 points - 10 fewer would put him down with the HAAS drivers.

    steam_sig.png
  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    Khavall wrote: »
    Red Bull need to hire Kvyat after every race so that they can fire him each week.


    Nova_C wrote: »
    Brundle mentioned that Stroll was 'feast or famine', and yeah. Like, he can drive, but so often he just doesn't do anything. Here's hoping he develops further at Williams because I like having a Canadian driver in F1.

    I looked up the driver rankings because I haven't actually been watching the way the points have been falling in the mid-pack. The way it feels like Stroll and Williams in general have been doing, I did not expect to see it go Top-6, FIs, Sainz, and then Stroll. I would've bet a big ol' stack that Massa's consistent performance had him up on Stroll in points, and that Stroll would be like, I'm not even sure, I guess mid-Hasses/McLarens?

    10th and beating Massa is not what I expected, and I imagine he'll be in it for a few more years if he can consistently beat his teammate, even if it's in weird bursts and spurts.
    To be fair, they are pretty close on points, and the big difference is the podium spot that Stroll got in Azerbaijan. That's 15 points - 10 fewer would put him down with the HAAS drivers.
    To be sure, but on the other side of the coin, points is points. Like if he can be put up one or two big points grabbing races in a season then that's if anything even better for the team than just always finishing 8th or something. I mean, I guess I'm hoping for consistency in being inconsistent, but "HOLY SHIT STROLL GOT ON THE PODIUM" is more news-y and will get more people talking about Williams than "Oh look, Merc, Ferrari, Merc, RBR, Ferrari, RBR, FI, FI, Williams, Williams.... yawn"

    Also, points is points.

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Out of interest, what's the accepted time when we can drop spoilers? I'm inclined to just flat out open season after the race ends but I get that it might be a bit more awkward for those in the states etc. There's also the paywalled races in the UK that I'm inclined to hold back a bit on.

    Anyway, some thoughts.
    First off congrats to Lewis on his fourth WDC. Thoroughly deserved and he's undeniably one of the sport's greats.

    As for the race itself, I was incredibly annoyed by Vettel in the first few corners. Contact with both Hamilton and Verstappen, and in the case of Hamilton there was more than enough space to avoid the contact. Very surprised there was no further action on it. Worst of all it denied us what could have been a great three way fight for the race victory. It was a really good move from Hamilton to get past Vettel as well. While I don't think it was deliberate, I can understand Hamilton asking considering that Vettel has prior form for that this season (and more realistically, it adds pressure on the stewards to do something).

    Verstappen was in a class of his own at the front. There really was a gulf in performance between Verstappen and Bottas/Raikkonen. It's a bit hard to judge just how good it was since all we have to compare against are the #2 drivers and his teammate went out early on.

    Hamilton did have a relatively low key recovery drive, but keep in mind that he was well behind the pack due to a full lap crawling around with a puncture. After that he was essentially trying to do a full length race making one set of tyres last with a potentially damaged car. When the VSC allowed him to go to supersofts he did much better.

  • JazzJazz Registered User regular
    There's no official limit on spoilers. I leave it to you guys' discretion in this thread, everyone's pretty good about it generally. It used to be two days but we just ended up with walls of spoiler tags. Mind you, this thread used to be a lot busier...

  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    I work on Sundays, so at the earliest, I watch the race the evening after the race, which is sometimes nearly 24 hours later. If anything happens, like friends want to do something, then it's monday night before I can watch it.

    That said, I avoid this thread like the plague whenever there's a race because it's actually incredibly difficult to be an F1 fan in this era of targeted advertising and not be spoiled on a race when you have to wait sometimes as long as 2 days later to watch it!

    The number of websites that have spoiled me is pretty close to the same number of websites I visit on a regular basis.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    Basics of the engine regs for 2021 outlined today:

    http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/21236213/formula-one-outlines-2021-engine-plans

    TL;DR: Still V6 turbos, max revs raised to 18,000, MGU-H dropped in favor of a more powerful MGU-K, which will have more driver control over deployment. Basically what most of us thought would happen, at least in broad strokes. Some other interesting things about standardized packaging and dimensions to keep teams from getting too crazy with how they build the engines.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited November 2017
    So I saw an interesting stat today. Michael and Lewis won their fourth championships at the same age, 32. So Lewis absolutely has time to get to seven, as does Vettel. Lewis also has time to reach the win total if he keeps winning at the clip he is now.

    Super excited to see the "drive for five" stuff next year as Lewis and Seb go head to head to reach five titles (with Max, Daniel and Alonso looking to play spoiler of course).

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    If Red Bull can squeeze a bit more out of their car, I think Max is the biggest threat to Hamilton and Vettel.

    It will take a miracle for Alonso to show up in the front of the pack. Not because he can't do it, he's definitely worthy of more championships, but McLaren just can't figure out their engine issues.

    Force India have been showing surprising pace lately. They're easily the top of the non-cheating teams that actually have to work for it, and Ocon is a future star.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited November 2017
    McLaren will be running the same engine as Red Bull next year, in a chassis that seems to be really good. If Red Bull is a threat with that engine, than I think Alonso is a threat to at least win races next year, if not be a title contender.

    Keep in mind that Max was running the latest spec Renault engine at Mexico and it looked like it had really good power. Obviously Mercedes and Ferrari won't be standing still, but if Renault keeps making gains, we could absolutely see a four way top of the grid battle next year.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • DrovekDrovek Registered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    McLaren will be running the same engine as Red Bull next year, in a chassis that seems to be really good. If Red Bull is a threat with that engine (which is supposed to be quite a bit better next year), than I think Alonso is a threat to at least win races next year, if not be a title contender.

    While I agree, it's also the first year they work with Renault and I'm expecting a few hiccups. I would love for Alonso to show up at podium fights, however.

    steam_sig.png( < . . .
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Drovek wrote: »
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    McLaren will be running the same engine as Red Bull next year, in a chassis that seems to be really good. If Red Bull is a threat with that engine (which is supposed to be quite a bit better next year), than I think Alonso is a threat to at least win races next year, if not be a title contender.

    While I agree, it's also the first year they work with Renault and I'm expecting a few hiccups. I would love for Alonso to show up at podium fights, however.

    Like I said, a miracle.

    But, I mean, I can dream. I dream a dream that my team doesn't suck. :P

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    I don't expect miracles, I do expect to see Alonso up near the front in quite a few more races than currently. If he can keep his attitude in check (which, to be fair to him, seems to have gone from toxic to funny memelord) I think McLaren has a good enough chassis, and is a professional enough team, to make that Renault engine work and be competitive.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • JazzJazz Registered User regular
    It's funny, the last three years haven't done Alonso's results any good but they've transformed his public image for the better.

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Just a few thoughts on this year (so far) and where it leaves teams and drivers.

    Mercedes fastest overall again, but debatable if they had the best car. It was temperamental and difficult to set up while the Ferrari was a much better all rounder. Hamilton at his best and enjoying a team that's basically unified around him.

    Ferrari had a genuinely competitive car but shot themselves in the foot repeatedly with reliability and driver errors. Vettel's stock went down in my eyes due to his mistakes and behaviour. He has to take at least some of the blame for failing to win this year. He needs to control his temper more and avoid incidents if he wants to win. The Baku incident in particular stands out. I still feel he should have been disqualified for it, and even without that he still came within a few penalty points of a race ban.

    Kimi and Bottas are both firmly number 2 drivers at the minute. It suits both teams to keep them that way. Ferrari were blatant about how Kimi is basically there to back up Vettel. Mercedes seemed quite relieved not to have outright war going on within the team while Bottas was fast enough to be ahead of Kimi, but generally not a threat to Hamilton. The thing is that both are on one year contracts. Kimi is close to retirement and Ferrai may want a faster driver to secure the constructors title. Bottas might be under threat if Kimi's replacement is faster than him for the same reason. It'll be interesting to see how contracts play out next season.

    Red Bull became a proper threat towards the end of the season and have two very good drivers. Verstappen is undeniably one of the quickest on the grid, I'd definitely put him as one of the biggest threats to Hamilton in the future, and Red Bull have already secured him (tough luck Merc/Ferrari). Ricciardo is fast but generally appears to be outpaced slightly by Verstappen on the rare occasions where both cars are in the same race. He might also get the #2 treatment from Red Bull in the future.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited November 2017
    We'll never know, at least not until Seb writes a tell all some years from now, but I have a feeling the Ferrari reliability issues were caused by Ferrari turning the wick up on their engine a little to try and make up the performance gap and it was just a little too much. As tempermental as the Mercedes was it just goes to show how much their power advantage was able to make up for a hard to drive, hard to balance car. If they can fix that car next year, they will be right back up near the top, if not firmly still the best team with the best car. Keep in mind also that next years car will be the first one James Allison has had complete oversight of.

    Red Bull and McLaren's fates rest squarely in the hands of Renault. Max's engine at Mexico showed signs of speed but they need to prove it from Melbourne going forward next year.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • JazzJazz Registered User regular
    Massa is retiring at the end of this season. Not a surprise, of course, but I'll still be sad to see him go. He always seems like one of the nicest dudes in the paddock.

    Rumblings that Kvyat might be his replacement! I suspect he'd be a good fit, actually.

    Ferrari are apparently in a tizzy about the forthcoming engine regulations and are, as usual, threatening to take their ball and go home, and quit F1 as of 2021. Nobody believes them.

  • DrovekDrovek Registered User regular
    I hope he gets at least as good a send off as last year's.

    steam_sig.png( < . . .
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Jesus, Ferrari sound like spoiled children. They already have a deck stacked in their favour, and they're still pulling the same bullshit, "Do this so we can keep our advantage, or we're leaving."

    Then fucking leave, you babies. The sport would be better off without you.

    Mind, it would be a disaster for attendance, I know Ferrari has the most fans, but goddamn that company is ridiculous.

  • JazzJazz Registered User regular
    Drovek wrote: »
    I hope he gets at least as good a send off as last year's.

    He's announced it prior to the Brazilian GP; I don't doubt that they will give him a brilliant send-off. The Brazilian fans have always been amazing.

  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Jesus, Ferrari sound like spoiled children. They already have a deck stacked in their favour, and they're still pulling the same bullshit, "Do this so we can keep our advantage, or we're leaving."

    Then fucking leave, you babies. The sport would be better off without you.

    Mind, it would be a disaster for attendance, I know Ferrari has the most fans, but goddamn that company is ridiculous.

    Yeah but everybody does that.

    Like, Red Bull has threatened to quit at least once every season since I started watching F1.

  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Khavall wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Jesus, Ferrari sound like spoiled children. They already have a deck stacked in their favour, and they're still pulling the same bullshit, "Do this so we can keep our advantage, or we're leaving."

    Then fucking leave, you babies. The sport would be better off without you.

    Mind, it would be a disaster for attendance, I know Ferrari has the most fans, but goddamn that company is ridiculous.

    Yeah but everybody does that.

    Like, Red Bull has threatened to quit at least once every season since I started watching F1.

    Oh - I know they were talking shit about Renault a whole bunch. I didn't see other teams saying they were going to leave, though.

    If all the teams do it, man. That's one dysfunctional sport.

  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    I guess I should've said "All the teams for whom that's a negotiating tactic that they have do it".

    Like, yeah, FI doesn't really do it, because nobody would care.

    I'm sure the only reason Merc didn't drop one this year over the oil burning was because they gamed the system.

    I've come to realize that every team will do whatever they think will give them whatever advantage they could possibly have. If Ferrari thinks that they can get some regs that help them by causing a stink, they'll cause a stink. If they thought that regs were already changing to help them, they'd be happy as a clam.

  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Ferrari knows if they leave F1 ceases to exist as a going concern, more or less.

    They basically own the sport.

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  • DrovekDrovek Registered User regular
    Knight_ wrote: »
    Ferrari knows if they leave F1 ceases to exist as a going concern, more or less.

    They basically own the sport.

    Just need more makes in it, but to be honest I don't see that happening, specially after Honda.

    And it seems the makers aregrowing more fond of Formula-E.

    steam_sig.png( < . . .
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Formula E is a flash in the pan that will go away the very instant it costs money. right now formula E is cheap af because almost all the parts are standard, and the fia is pushing it hard so you get a lot of positive press for little money.

    once factories are allowed to go crazy, they'll basically all leave.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
  • Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    Knight_ wrote: »
    Formula E is a flash in the pan that will go away the very instant it costs money. right now formula E is cheap af because almost all the parts are standard, and the fia is pushing it hard so you get a lot of positive press for little money.

    once factories are allowed to go crazy, they'll basically all leave.

    Meh, not really. Full electric cars are the future - there's no way around that. The internal combustion engine is near the end of its life as an automotive powerplant. This isn't speculation, it's fact. The only variable is how quickly it dies.

  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Do you need to spend a few hundred million dollars on aerodynamics because electric cars are the future?

    once they unlock the chassis 80% of the works teams will be gone in 2 years.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    I have to agree on F-E to an extent really. Electric cars are no doubt the future, but right now it's incredibly attractive because it's more or less standard parts. It lets manufacturers throw some money sticking their name on a car, claim they're at the cutting edge of electric car tech and be relatively competitive. Without the cheap and easy PR I suspect the series will take a hit. It could recover of course, but I suspect if electric car performance became competitive with F1's tech then F1 would switch to electric anyway.

    A large part of the appeal of F1 to me is that it isn't a spec series. It's as much, probably more so, about the engineering teams competing against each other. While Ferrari are likely making noises for their own ends, I do somewhat agree with the concerns over making too many parts spec. Some of the most useful stuff from F1 (like carbon fibre construction) didn't come out of a desire to be road relevant and would probably be barred under "cost saving" rules with today's regulations.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    You have to read between the lines with Ferrari. This is a warning shot at Liberty Media not to mess with their legacy payment. It's been kind of an open secret that Liberty isn't a huge fan of paying Ferrari to stick around. They'd much rather spread that money around the grid especially down towards the bottom of the grid to ease some of the cost pressures for mid pack and lower teams. It becomes a serious issue in a sport that is ludicrously expensive to participate in. Money that all the teams are effectively making for the sport is being funneled to Ferrari instead of being redistributed in a way that stabilizes the sport. In 2020 Liberty is going to have to decide what's better for F1: Long term financial viability for more teams and possibly new makes coming in, or keeping Ferrari happy? It probably comes down to whether they think other teams would follow Ferrari to a new championships (which has always been the real meat of Ferrari's quit threat).

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    oh look, why i don't watch f1 anymore:

    aeNqQM9.jpg
This discussion has been closed.