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[Formula One & motorsport] W Series round 2: Zolder your Circuits!

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Posts

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Race
    Hamilton pretty much owned that race, not much to say there. The championship isn't over yet, but it's getting close to it. I feel pretty comfortable saying Hamilton deserves it this year.

    Vettel and Ferrari on the other hand are busy throwing away any chances they get. Vettel has cracked badly under the pressure of a championship fight. The move on Verstappen was rash and cost him a likely third place and podium. Surprised they didn't swap Kimi and Vettel but I suppose "pull over for 40 seconds to let your teammate past" is a bit embarrassing, even for Ferrari.

    To be harsh, Bottas showed why he has earned his wingman position today. Not on the pace of Hamilton at any time through the weekend, struggled with tyres and made a series of unnecessary errors which almost cost him a place to Verstappen.

    Verstappen continues to be a fast idiot. I don't blame him for the collision with Vettel, but he has to cop full responsibility for hitting Kimi. It's pretty hard to claim he "did everything right" when he came back onto the track and hit a driver who had stayed perfectly on track. It isn't their responsibility to let you back onto the track. Good drive from Danny Ric after an unfortunate qualifying.

    Magnussen was up to his usual tricks and ultimately got what he deserved for them. This is precisely why you don't move about erratically in the braking zone - it leaves no time for the other guy to react and he's likely to run into the back of you. It isn't the first time he's done this and I get the impression that the other drivers don't think much of his attitude either. Leclerc summed it up by saying "Magnussen is, and will always be, stupid".

  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    Ferrari waste an opportunity; Seb in particular makes a big fuck up; Max does something stupid (the Kimi incident, not the Seb one) but still makes the podium; Valtteri is very solid but unspectacular; back markers trip over each other; Lewis takes a lights to flag victory.

    Reads like an F1 bingo card, doesn't it.

    TeeMan
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    Seb trying and failing to pass Verstappen not 5 minutes after his engineer told him Verstappen had a penalty. What a terrible decision.

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    davidsdurions
  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    Seb trying and failing to pass Verstappen not 5 minutes after his engineer told him Verstappen had a penalty. What a terrible decision.
    Yeah, that was just plain silly of Vettel to do, but to be fair to him, every other pass that was done at that same spot during the race was made without anyone running into anyone else. Contrary to what the announcers said during the broadcast, I don't think Verstappen left Vettel enough room to make that pass, which forced Vettel onto the curbs, which made the front tires suddenly lose the grip Vettel expected to have, so he slid into Verstappen.

    I am not saying Verstappen shares any of the blame, the incident is entirely Vettel's fault in the end, but I think it never happens if that wasn't the first time Vettel tried to make a pass going into that corner.

  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Vettel and Ferrari haven’t made a good decision for like six months.

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
    tsmvengyJazz
  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    Seb's form is looking really poor. I can't believe Verstappen's car didn't break with that hit. You could see in slow mo half the bodywork on the red bull was deforming on the contact

    But Verstappen is just as much of a slop. I can't believe the hit on Raikkonen. If I were a steward that would be an instant grid place penalty or worse.

    You can't get completely out-played, run off the track, and then just put your foot down and dare your opponent to keep the place he just earned. absurd

    i gotta be honest... we've had way too much of it over the past few years, but my favorite part of that race was Hamilton's in-car. He looked so gooooood going through the esses at 80% effort

    Try EVE Online with my referral code, and I'll like you a little bit: https://www.eveonline.com/signup/?invc=86622db9-a6f9-41e8-b846-c305f625b55b
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Eh, a 5 or 10 second penalty seems to be about normal for that type of contact these days - at least considering the lack of obvious damage (that is, a spin or near terminal damage like a puncture). I can agree that a harsher penalty may be justified as it was rejoining the track though. I'm still pissed off at Maldonado in Valencia 2012 - punted Hamilton out of the race and received a 20 second time penalty for it.

  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    altid wrote: »
    Eh, a 5 or 10 second penalty seems to be about normal for that type of contact these days - at least considering the lack of obvious damage (that is, a spin or near terminal damage like a puncture). I can agree that a harsher penalty may be justified as it was rejoining the track though. I'm still pissed off at Maldonado in Valencia 2012 - punted Hamilton out of the race and received a 20 second time penalty for it.

    You mean this one?



    Because damn if I know what Maldonado was supposed to do. He was ahead entering the corner, Hamilton just pushed him off the track and Maldonado was not anywhere close to as reckless as Verstappen coming in - Hamilton was basically right beside him. Maldonado was already committed to turning right, so it's not like he could have gone straight. And then Hamilton just cut him off when he knew he'd just ran him off the road.

    Seriously, I have no idea what Maldonado could have done to avoid that collision short of simply stopping his car. Actually, no, even then, Hamilton just fucking drove in front of him.

    And they gave him a 20 second penalty for it? Jesus, everyone wants to suck Hamilton off, don't they.

    (This predates me getting into F1, so I just watched it for the first time).

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Seriously? You think that move was ok? Maldonado can clearly see him and drives straight into the side of him anyway! It was as foolish a track rejoining as you can get - and entirely true to form for Maldonado who had already deliberately rammed Hamilton the season prior. The simple answer to "what could Maldonado have done?" is "not turn right into another competitor when already off the track". Hamilton was on the normal racing line. Maldonado had no right to it after he left the track. As with Kimi this weekend, it wasn't his responsibility to make sure Maldonado wasn't being an idiot. At the very least Verstappen couldn't see Kimi directly.

    davidsdurionsJazz
  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Nova_C, I'm with you entirely in what you see. Thing to remember though is F1 is supposed to be a gentlemen's racing series, and since Maldonado left the track for whatever reason it was entirely on him to get back on safely. Maldonado had the option of not going off track originally and let Hamilton hit him, in which case it should be Hamilton's fault for causing an accident, or once he left the track his only option was to let Hamilton by and safely re-enter the track without causing an incident.

    Coming from an Americanized background of "Rubbing is Racing", where Rubbing is short for "If I can win the fist fight afterwards anything goes", it does seem backwards about who gets blamed for what a fair amount of the time.

    Edit: To be fair, I also entirely understand why this is. A top end NASCAR stock car costs ~$1million, while the average F1 car is estimated at ~$15million on the low end. That's just for the car, if you add in what it takes to actually get that car to the track and able to run the difference only gets bigger. The difference in financials involved mean the drivers must be even more protective of the cars and to cause as little damage as they possibly can.

    Veevee on
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Veevee wrote: »
    Nova_C, I'm with you entirely in what you see. Thing to remember though is F1 is supposed to be a gentlemen's racing series, and since Maldonado left the track for whatever reason it was entirely on him to get back on safely. Maldonado had the option of not going off track originally and let Hamilton hit him, in which case it should be Hamilton's fault for causing an accident, or once he left the track his only option was to let Hamilton by and safely re-enter the track without causing an incident.

    Coming from an Americanized background of "Rubbing is Racing", where Rubbing is short for "If I can win the fist fight afterwards anything goes", it does seem backwards about who gets blamed for what a fair amount of the time.

    If Maldonado hadn't gone off track, and Hamilton had hit him, I guarantee there would have been no penalty for Hamilton.
    altid wrote: »
    Seriously? You think that move was ok? Maldonado can clearly see him and drives straight into the side of him anyway! It was as foolish a track rejoining as you can get - and entirely true to form for Maldonado who had already deliberately rammed Hamilton the season prior. The simple answer to "what could Maldonado have done?" is "not turn right into another competitor when already off the track". Hamilton was on the normal racing line. Maldonado had no right to it after he left the track. As with Kimi this weekend, it wasn't his responsibility to make sure Maldonado wasn't being an idiot. At the very least Verstappen couldn't see Kimi directly.

    He didn't turn right into another competitor. He was turning left when the collision happened. Hamilton cut him off.

    And yeah, Maldonado was off track, which means it was up to him to rejoin safely, except he could not have done so.

    Maldonado was right there, in the corner, and went off track to avoid a collision with Hamilton, but followed the corner because he was trying to remain as on track as he could. Hamilton just drove him off, though. So there he was, parallel to Hamilton, heading towards a left hander. At that point there was literally nothing Maldonado could have done to prevent the ensuing collision. Turning left resulted in the collision. Braking would have resulted in the collision. Going straight or turning right would have been even worse.

    In fact, there was only one person who could have prevented that collision from happening, but Hamilton doesn't have to worry about such things as other drivers' safety. He's too good for that.

  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Nope, I take it back, there is one thing Maldonado could have done: As soon as Hamilton forced him off, he could have conceded the spot, slowed down and rejoined after the corner.

    I guess the question is, is it reasonable to expect a driver in F1 to immediately concede a battle?

    Should simply pushing another car off the track be considered appropriate racing, if the car pushed off must immediately concede the position?

    Because that sounds stupid.

  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Okay, I've watched this Maldonado "pass" on Hamilton a few times now and I guess I don't understand what the big deal is? Maldonado never once completes a safe pass the entire time. He gets close but not quite, and from everything I've ever learned, it's always been incumbent on the overtaking vehicle to make the pass clean and safe and complete. The car in front is entitled to position and line, as well as having the prerogative to defend said position and line, such as closing the door like Hamilton does here.

    You can see in the video there that Hamilton is struggling for grip and pace, all Maldonado had to do really is keep the pressure from behind for another lap and he's going to take the position as Hamilton breaks his tires down completely trying to keep ahead. See this a lot lower tier racing where someone feels that they are so much faster than the car in front for whatever reason and that they are entitled to the position, but it's simply not the case. In racing, if the car in front of you is on the same lap, then guess what? They are currently ahead of you in standings in this race and you are going to have to fight for that spot, unless and only if they concede which they are not obliged to do.

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  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Okay, I've watched this Maldonado "pass" on Hamilton a few times now and I guess I don't understand what the big deal is? Maldonado never once completes a safe pass the entire time. He gets close but not quite, and from everything I've ever learned, it's always been incumbent on the overtaking vehicle to make the pass clean and safe and complete. The car in front is entitled to position and line, as well as having the prerogative to defend said position and line, such as closing the door like Hamilton does here.

    You can see in the video there that Hamilton is struggling for grip and pace, all Maldonado had to do really is keep the pressure from behind for another lap and he's going to take the position as Hamilton breaks his tires down completely trying to keep ahead. See this a lot lower tier racing where someone feels that they are so much faster than the car in front for whatever reason and that they are entitled to the position, but it's simply not the case. In racing, if the car in front of you is on the same lap, then guess what? They are currently ahead of you in standings in this race and you are going to have to fight for that spot, unless and only if they concede which they are not obliged to do.

    Because they enter that final turn before the accident even, so I have a hard time saying either driver was entitled to the position. I do feel it should have been Hamilton's responsibility to give Maldonado room, which he very clearly did not, just as much as it was Maldonado's responsibility to give Hamilton room, which he very clearly did by running wide on purpose.

    Maldonado was terrible in many ways, but this was not one of them.

    Edit: For a different viewpoint on this, in NASCAR the position belongs to the driver in front but the driver that is entitled to it is the faster driver. The bump and run is looked down upon in NASCAR, unless you have proven that you are faster and the car ahead is being a jackass and slowing you down because it's just fast enough in the right spots to prevent a pass but much slower (but still fast enough) in the wrong spots to make the pass safely. At that time the bump run is suddenly the exact right thing to do because the slower driver was obviously slower and should have just moved over. You'll even get this attitude towards passing in the WeatherTech and other IMSA sports car series, and to a much lesser extent in IndyCar due to the realities of open wheel racing.

    Believe it or not, these are celebrated passes in NASCAR

    Veevee on
  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Focusing on the incident in isolation drives me crazy with trying to figure out what the controversy is. Maldonado drives into a vehicle from off the course, he should not have done that and 20 seconds penalty doesn’t help the wrecked car so feels a bit weak as far as punishment goes but racing incidents are difficult to mete out punishment fairly.

    I’ve got no love for Hamilton but he simply didn’t do anything against the written rules and didn’t cross any unwritten lines that time.

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
    tsmvengyJazz
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    On the Maldonado thing, don't look at the moment of impact. Go backwards.
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    This is off. Why is Maldonado turning back to rejoin the track when there's no room to do so? There is no way he can get wheels back on the track and keep fighting, the collision is inevitable if he does it. Slow down, get back behind, and try again later.

    This is why they should have haybales at the track limits still ;)

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  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Talking about 2012 reminded me what an absolute mess McLaren were that year (and have been practically every year since). At various points of the season they had the outright fastest car. They had Hamilton. They took this combo and managed to throw it away entirely. There were bad pit stops, there was failing to fuel Hamilton properly for quali in Spain (which cost a pole and likely win), there was wasting development time trying to accommodate Button (who ended up being lapped by Hamilton in the same car) when the answer was "just copy Hamilton's setup" and to cap it all off, there was just plain poor reliability. Hamilton retired with gearbox failure from a comfortable lead in Singapore - he was announced as a Mercedes driver 5 days later.

    As an extra stinger, you'd think that with a highly successful 2012 chassis and no major changes to the rules that iterating on that for the next season would be the right move - except McLaren decided to start over. They ended up lounging in the midfield and haven't won a race since 2012.

    Snicketysnick
  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    Remember when Hamilton signing for Mercedes was considered a huge gamble, especially compared to McLaren's proven form? Good times.

    Snicketysnickaltid
  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    God that Brawn debut season was right out of a classic Boy's Own Adventure Annual from the 70s, absolutely incredible.

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    D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
    Jazzaltid
  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    A reminder, as qualifying starts, as to how Lewis can win the title tomorrow...

    bzhvdet2ed4a.png

    Also, Vettel has a three place grid penalty for not slowing sufficiently for a red flag in FP1, adding yet another thing to his unbelievable tally of stupid mistakes this year.

    altiddavidsdurions
  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    Qualifying:
    Someone was going to break something on those kerbs. Ultimately it was Max. Of course...

    Damn close at the sharp end, the updated Ferraris looking quicker than they have for a while, and apparently even faster in race trim. Very close to Lewis' Merc, and with barely even a whisker between each other. If Kimi (qualified third but starting second) gets a good start tomorrow it could be a really fun one.

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Vettel hindering his chances with an entirely unnecessary mistake? I'm shocked!
    I'm really hoping Hamilton wraps up the title this weekend. Makes the rest of the season a bit more relaxed. The Ferrari's do look very quick though, and have a reputation for good starts (except for Kimi?).

  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    Is this on TV aside from Spanish channel? Can't seem to find it anywhere.

  • obolon84obolon84 Registered User regular
    Krieghund wrote: »
    Is this on TV aside from Spanish channel? Can't seem to find it anywhere.

    It's on ABC in the U.S.

  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    My ABC station has some dog doctor show on. Oh well, at least the Spanish channel doesn't have commercials.

  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Krieghund wrote: »
    My ABC station has some dog doctor show on. Oh well, at least the Spanish channel doesn't have commercials.

    Try espn, or the ESPN streaming site

    Also, was there just some dude making zoom sounds, or was that just my stream?
    Edit: why didn't Vettel/Ferarri pit?

    Veevee on
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Yep, there was definitely somebody making zoom sounds. Couldn’t help laughing.

    Jazzdavidsdurions
  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Veevee wrote: »
    Edit: why didn't Vettel/Ferarri pit?

    As far as I can tell, because they are DUMB.
    Should have pitted Kimi.

    Unless Merc are going for a two-stop.

    Jazz on
  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    I Hope Ferrari is using Kimi to slow down Hamilton.

  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    Yeah, Merc have to be two-stopping, Lewis at least; Ferrari one-stopping.

    I think.

  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    Yeah, Ferrari are just dumb

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Dunno, looks like Merc’s Strategy is falling apart now. Hamilton is going to have to put, he’s just too slow.

  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    Raikkonen might need to pit again. Hell, Vettel might too since his tires are only 11 laps newer. There are still 19 laps to go when Hamilton pits.

  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    altid wrote: »
    Dunno, looks like Merc’s Strategy is falling apart now. Hamilton is going to have to put, he’s just too slow.

    I'm not so sure now...

  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited October 2018
    This finish is going to be crazy

    Veevee on
  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    KIMI!!!!!!!!

    VeeveealtidSnicketysnickdavidsdurionstsmvengyjimb213
  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »
    KIMI!!!!!!!!

    Fucking finally

    JazzdavidsdurionstsmvengyTeeMan
  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    What a good race, and a fantastic finish. Awesome.

    davidsdurionsjimb213
  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Edit: double post

    Veevee on
  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    Max wrecked his right shoe :lol:

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