Ricciardo out qualifying not only his teammate but both Red Bulls and Bottas.
Sure, he probably only beat Verstappen because of Magnussen crashing and red flagging Verstappen's lap, but second row is second row. The Renaults found some real pace.
Yeah, so nice to see Ricciardo and Hulkenberg had a good day. Long overdue.
Come on SBS, where's the w series race! I know Australia is a tiny market for this sort of thing but if a vested fan super keen to follow the series can't catch the race even after the fact, what hope does it have here
It's a hard one to call. If you believe the practice analysis, Merc have 0.5s per lap advantage in race pace. The Ferrari's however are very, very quick in S3 with could make it hard to overtake/easy to be overtaken. Then there's an out of position with choice of tyres (so possibly counter-strategy) Verstappen to deal with.
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2019
Ugh what a way for that to end...
I'm the biggest Hamilton homer in the world....but Vettel got fucked. What a ridiculous penalty. Lewis had every right to complain, it was dodgy, but the stewards should have just said racing incident. I still think Lewis had the pace to get by him on the track. We finally got our Vettel vs. Hamilton duel and the FIA bumbles it.
Sigh, this one is going to bring out the Hamilton haters in full force.
Yes, it's harsh. No, nobody wants to win a race like that. But it was fair. It was a mistake and Hamilton had him but for being driven towards the wall. Hamilton should not lose time due to Vettel being unable to control his car. It's the responsibility of the rejoining driver not to cause an accident.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
It was a shit penalty, but lets not pretend Mercedes or Hamilton are unique in complaining about something like that. Every team and driver on the grid would have reacted the same way and complained about unsafe reentry. The guy who almost got put in to the wall has every right to complain. It's on the stewards to be the cooler heads and they dropped that ball big time.
First of all, that was a bullshit penalty, and I was eating up every little post race mini-protest from Vettel.
Second, by the book, that was a good penalty. To the FIA, Vettel should have come back on slower and stayed left. In reality we all know that was not possible, but the FIA doesn't care about reality.
It was entirely possible if he didn't try immediately flooring it.
You usually only give the place back if you gained an advantage, but he rejoined and kept fighting for his place.
The only problem now is that it's not the first time it has happened, and before they would "let them race." And now they decided to penalize this, in spite of the fact that we are getting no racing at all, the moment we actually get some racing going.
He blocked Hamilton from using a better line (one that's actually on the circuit) and traction to get past him. If Hamilton doesn't have to slam the brakes on to avoid an accident he's past. That's a pretty clear cut advantage.
He blocked Hamilton from using a better line (one that's actually on the circuit) and traction to get past him. If Hamilton doesn't have to slam the brakes on to avoid an accident he's past. That's a pretty clear cut advantage.
That's pretty much how Hamilton drives people off the circuit.
thank you to the FIA for ruining what will probably be the only competitive race this year
In the most extreme interpretation imaginable, Vettel didn't have control over his car until all but the final 2 feet of his track out. You can't tap the brakes in the grass. You can't tap the brakes when you're countersteering on dirty pavement.
Vettel is a passenger. Any act more cautious than what he did is a nearly guaranteed spin in a car that is already visibly loose. He has the right to not knowingly wreck his car. Also considering that if Vettel loses total control coming out of the grass, there's a high likelihood he takes out Hamilton in the process.
Total disgrace
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2019
I thought your pre-edited post was spot on @altid . There's a big difference between hard racing and being out of control and almost wiping out a competitor. I think the penalty was crap, but lashing out at Hamilton as somehow a dirty driver (which he has zero reputation of being) because Vettel screwed up is unfortunate.
I thought your pre-edited post was spot on @altid . There's a big difference between hard racing and being out of control and almost wiping out a competitor. I think the penalty was crap, but lashing out at Hamilton as somehow a dirty driver (which he has zero reputation of being) because Vettel screwed up is unfortunate.
Yes, in the first case it's entirely the choice of the driver 'hard driving' another competitor out of the track, in the later, it's trying to regain control after you lost it. Might disagree there which one is worse, but to be honest I can't take the fact that even if Hamilton is a good driver and he's pretty much on the best machine in the grid, that they are still handing things to him like that.
thank you to the FIA for ruining what will probably be the only competitive race this year
In the most extreme interpretation imaginable, Vettel didn't have control over his car until all but the final 2 feet of his track out. You can't tap the brakes in the grass. You can't tap the brakes when you're countersteering on dirty pavement.
Vettel is a passenger. Any act more cautious than what he did is a nearly guaranteed spin in a car that is already visibly loose. He has the right to not knowingly wreck his car. Also considering that if Vettel loses total control coming out of the grass, there's a high likelihood he takes out Hamilton in the process.
Total disgrace
So what is Hamilton supposed to do in this scenario? He didn't make a mistake. He stayed on the circuit. He drove on the racing line. He had better traction and will accelerate past Vettel... except he's had to brake abnormally to avoid hitting Vettel. That's more or less the crux of the issue. Hamilton was forced to drive in an inefficient manner to cover for his competitor's mistake. If Hamilton is slightly further back, Vettel gets away with it.... but also gets passed by Hamilton immediately.
For other parts of the race:
McLaren had a pretty awful day. Rubbish stuck in Sainz' car forcing a way too early pitstop and the brakes literally melting Norris' car. A real shame as he was doing pretty great up until then.
Bottas was poor with a relatively anonymous day, mostly stuck behind various normally-midfield cars. It would seem either Merc were running a more significant amount of downforce than others, or their engine isn't that much more powerful than others.
Leclerc had a pretty average weekend too. Only vaguely in touch with Vet/Ham and thoroughly outpaced by Vettel all weekend. Ferrari did, of course, throw in a messed up strategy for good measure though (even if it cost him nothing).
Renault had a very good day mixing it up towards the front. That said, I thought Danny Ric's defending against Bottas was debatable. It seemed to me that he was moving about an awful lot more than is typically allowed and Bottas was definitely forced to get off throttle to avoid running into the back of him at least once. I'd like to see a replay before passing judgement though.
Red Bull, well mixed fortunes. Verstappen had a good race despite the tyres being a bit rubbish in the first laps. Gasly just isn't at the races. While allowance has to be made for Verstappen being extremely good, Gasly is basically in a lower league right now. He should have finished ahead of Verstappen this race, but ended up behind both Renault's. I suspect it's another case of a driver being promoted too soon and not being able to handle it.
Stroll deserves a mention for having a good race for a change! Gets the added bonus of picking (edit: points, plural!) at his home race too.
Don't often mention Williams since they're basically in a different race category right now - and this isn't exactly a good mention either. Kubica finished ~30s behind Russel and qualified ~7.5 tenths off Russel. While it's amazing that he's able to drive at all, he simply isn't competitive. Not that it makes a huge amount of difference in the Williams.
Finally, Magnussen is a prick. When your team boss has to come on the raido basically to tell you to stfu you've gone much too far.
thank you to the FIA for ruining what will probably be the only competitive race this year
In the most extreme interpretation imaginable, Vettel didn't have control over his car until all but the final 2 feet of his track out. You can't tap the brakes in the grass. You can't tap the brakes when you're countersteering on dirty pavement.
Vettel is a passenger. Any act more cautious than what he did is a nearly guaranteed spin in a car that is already visibly loose. He has the right to not knowingly wreck his car. Also considering that if Vettel loses total control coming out of the grass, there's a high likelihood he takes out Hamilton in the process.
Total disgrace
So what is Hamilton supposed to do in this scenario?
Qualify better
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SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
Bullshit penalty indeed
As I see it Vettel had 2 other options that he had real control over there, actually t-bone Hamilton, or hit the wall, which of these do the stewards think would have been better?
So I watched the replay probably about 50 times and
Vettel fucked up, all 4 wheels off the track and cut hamilton off trying not to crash.
He didn't intentionally try to make hamilton slam on his brakes but he's gotta control the race car and "I didn't mean to" isn't really a defense for a dangerous action.
I feel for him but what's the alternative? Mistakes have consequences and losing control of your car is a fairly big mistake.
Vettel quite literally reentered the track in such an unsafe manner that he directly impeded the progress of the car behind. The stewards had to either give a time penalty or force Vettel to give up the position. I might have been tempted to do the latter for more exciting racing opportunities but 5 seconds was fine. Could have been 10 and off the podium.
So do we want this kind of thing to be penalized or not?
Maybe a 5 second penalty was too much but he definitely should have had to at least give up position.
He put himself in the position and then impeded another driver in a dangerous way, whether or not it was accidental is pretty immaterial.
If Vettel hadn't managed to hold it and crashed into hamilton he would have had an even more severe penalty.
It sucks to have a race decided like that but neither the stewards not Hamilton decided to push the car too far and almost lose control and push another driver into the wall. One person alone is responsible for that.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
If F1 gave a consistent answer to that question, I'd probably be less miffed about the whole thing. A dispassionate reading of the regulations absolutely says Vettel deserved some kind of penalty. Problem is, there's no indication F1 applies the rules dispassionately. They clearly pick and choose when to enforce the rules, and are not consistent about the punishments.
The current state of F1 just kind of exacerbates this, though. Like, even if they had made Vettel let Hamilton ahead, the outcome would have been the same because passing is such a rarity, and even though Mercedes didn't dominate this race, there's no doubt in my mind if Hamilton had pole, he would have led the whole race and never been passed.
This is the first time this season that Ferrari mounted a real challenge to Mercedes, and then with 20 laps to go, the race was decided by regulations and not racing. Will there be another race this year that Mercedes doesn't just run with? I don't know. It sure makes me want to tune out for a while, though.
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My money is on pitting under a safety car after the field has bunched up
Hanging LeClerc out to try to defend Vettel from Bottas and the rest, having him pitstop too late and ruin the rest of the race.
Not sure if I would put money on a Wall o' Champions appearance.
Ricciardo finds the "Make this go fast" button and gets a 3rd place.
Well, not sure if realistic, but at least it would be interesting.
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So its not just me? Crap.
They should pay their engineers a living wage or something, because there is no fucking way that at this time they don't have this nailed down.
EDIT: So now it's even logging me out, which means their identity servers must be burned to a toast. Or they did that to unload the demand.
I think I'm gonna watch this as a rerun, but fuck them.
Yes, it's harsh. No, nobody wants to win a race like that. But it was fair. It was a mistake and Hamilton had him but for being driven towards the wall. Hamilton should not lose time due to Vettel being unable to control his car. It's the responsibility of the rejoining driver not to cause an accident.
Second, by the book, that was a good penalty. To the FIA, Vettel should have come back on slower and stayed left. In reality we all know that was not possible, but the FIA doesn't care about reality.
You usually only give the place back if you gained an advantage, but he rejoined and kept fighting for his place.
The only problem now is that it's not the first time it has happened, and before they would "let them race." And now they decided to penalize this, in spite of the fact that we are getting no racing at all, the moment we actually get some racing going.
That's pretty much how Hamilton drives people off the circuit.
In the most extreme interpretation imaginable, Vettel didn't have control over his car until all but the final 2 feet of his track out. You can't tap the brakes in the grass. You can't tap the brakes when you're countersteering on dirty pavement.
Vettel is a passenger. Any act more cautious than what he did is a nearly guaranteed spin in a car that is already visibly loose. He has the right to not knowingly wreck his car. Also considering that if Vettel loses total control coming out of the grass, there's a high likelihood he takes out Hamilton in the process.
Total disgrace
Yes, in the first case it's entirely the choice of the driver 'hard driving' another competitor out of the track, in the later, it's trying to regain control after you lost it. Might disagree there which one is worse, but to be honest I can't take the fact that even if Hamilton is a good driver and he's pretty much on the best machine in the grid, that they are still handing things to him like that.
For other parts of the race:
Bottas was poor with a relatively anonymous day, mostly stuck behind various normally-midfield cars. It would seem either Merc were running a more significant amount of downforce than others, or their engine isn't that much more powerful than others.
Leclerc had a pretty average weekend too. Only vaguely in touch with Vet/Ham and thoroughly outpaced by Vettel all weekend. Ferrari did, of course, throw in a messed up strategy for good measure though (even if it cost him nothing).
Renault had a very good day mixing it up towards the front. That said, I thought Danny Ric's defending against Bottas was debatable. It seemed to me that he was moving about an awful lot more than is typically allowed and Bottas was definitely forced to get off throttle to avoid running into the back of him at least once. I'd like to see a replay before passing judgement though.
Red Bull, well mixed fortunes. Verstappen had a good race despite the tyres being a bit rubbish in the first laps. Gasly just isn't at the races. While allowance has to be made for Verstappen being extremely good, Gasly is basically in a lower league right now. He should have finished ahead of Verstappen this race, but ended up behind both Renault's. I suspect it's another case of a driver being promoted too soon and not being able to handle it.
Stroll deserves a mention for having a good race for a change! Gets the added bonus of picking (edit: points, plural!) at his home race too.
Don't often mention Williams since they're basically in a different race category right now - and this isn't exactly a good mention either. Kubica finished ~30s behind Russel and qualified ~7.5 tenths off Russel. While it's amazing that he's able to drive at all, he simply isn't competitive. Not that it makes a huge amount of difference in the Williams.
Finally, Magnussen is a prick. When your team boss has to come on the raido basically to tell you to stfu you've gone much too far.
Qualify better
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He didn't intentionally try to make hamilton slam on his brakes but he's gotta control the race car and "I didn't mean to" isn't really a defense for a dangerous action.
I feel for him but what's the alternative? Mistakes have consequences and losing control of your car is a fairly big mistake.
I've seen way worse incidents let go with nothing, including contact that damages cars.
But anyway, not like it matters. Mercedes wins all the races, what the fuck is even the point?
https://ca.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-penalty-social-media-reaction/4461263/
That brought me to this clip, which wasn't even investigated:
Maybe a 5 second penalty was too much but he definitely should have had to at least give up position.
He put himself in the position and then impeded another driver in a dangerous way, whether or not it was accidental is pretty immaterial.
If Vettel hadn't managed to hold it and crashed into hamilton he would have had an even more severe penalty.
It sucks to have a race decided like that but neither the stewards not Hamilton decided to push the car too far and almost lose control and push another driver into the wall. One person alone is responsible for that.
The current state of F1 just kind of exacerbates this, though. Like, even if they had made Vettel let Hamilton ahead, the outcome would have been the same because passing is such a rarity, and even though Mercedes didn't dominate this race, there's no doubt in my mind if Hamilton had pole, he would have led the whole race and never been passed.
This is the first time this season that Ferrari mounted a real challenge to Mercedes, and then with 20 laps to go, the race was decided by regulations and not racing. Will there be another race this year that Mercedes doesn't just run with? I don't know. It sure makes me want to tune out for a while, though.