My view is the penalty should not have been given, but I also know my views on what racing is drastically different from what the FIA want. I come from a NASCAR viewpoint on road racing, where using the bumper to get around someone is a dirty but perfectly legal way to pass. I understand why that is something the FIA does not want, they view racing as a Gentlemen's sport (edit: and at the speeds these cars operate "using the bumper" is just plain stupid dangerous), so what Vettel did needs to be a penalty. I think the idea of making Vettel give up the position would have been the right call because, had Vettel stayed left like the FIA says he should have that would have been the result. It would have been controversial still, but it wouldn't have killed the race like a time penalty did.
After reading a lot and re-watching the race I do think giving up a position would have been a better call.
Is 5 seconds really the minimum time penalty? That's an eternity in F1
thank you to the FIA for ruining what will probably be the only competitive race this year
In the most extreme interpretation imaginable, Vettel didn't have control over his car until all but the final 2 feet of his track out. You can't tap the brakes in the grass. You can't tap the brakes when you're countersteering on dirty pavement.
Vettel is a passenger. Any act more cautious than what he did is a nearly guaranteed spin in a car that is already visibly loose. He has the right to not knowingly wreck his car. Also considering that if Vettel loses total control coming out of the grass, there's a high likelihood he takes out Hamilton in the process.
Total disgrace
So what is Hamilton supposed to do in this scenario?
Qualify better
How about Vettel keeps his car on the track? The double standards on this one are ridiculous.
I’ve yet to see any argument that makes it anything but an unsafe rejoining the track. It doesn’t matter if he didn’t intend to do it, it still happened and in a way that forced Hamilton to evade and prevented a nigh on certain pass. Verstappen did the same thing at Japan last year and got the exact same penalty. Should we simply ignore the rules for race leaders, or only when it benefits Hamilton/Merc? Corner cutting is something the stewards are very lenient on, unsafe re-entry is not.
+1
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
altid the point is that a five second time penalty is far too large a consequence for such a minor error, not that there should be no consequence at all.
If the penalty had been giving up the position he has 20 laps to maybe make something happen with his straight line speed under DRS.
It's literally the softest penalty they can give. From what I've read, the race director can tell a driver to give up an advantage for cutting a corner entirely at his or her discretion but they can not do this for re-joining the track in an unsafe manner. That has to be a penalty and there's nothing below a 5s time penalty.
The two penalty points he may have automatically picked up from it can be appealed and will more than likely be wiped though.
So literally the only options were no penalty at all or 5 seconds? That's some bullshit.
I'm pretty firmly on the side of him deserving SOME kind of penalty though.
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2019
Yeah, so the rules are fucked and a race was ruined by F1 being overly-officiated, which is exactly what everyone has been saying.
A five second penalty is idiotic as the minimum, this is Formula 1, not GT racing. Five seconds may as well be five minutes.
A one second penalty would have been far more suitable.
So literally the only options were no penalty at all or 5 seconds? That's some bullshit.
I'm pretty firmly on the side of him deserving SOME kind of penalty though.
Honestly, an after-the-race decision with some +X grid penalty would have worked out perfectly: you don't alter the current race, but there is a penalty handed down.
Still, I would very much prefer that they find consistency first in how and when they apply penalties.
( < . . .
+1
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Now I'm salivating at the idea of being able to witness Hamilton chasing Vettel the entire way to the line, making sure to stay within a second.
Seems silly there isn't some granularity like 1-5 seconds depending on severity. Like every other sport in existence.
+1
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
+8
Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Yeah, that's been Ricciardo's lot the whole time I've been watching F1.
Renault had a great result in general. Both Ricciardo and Hulkenberg put in great drives. I didn't realize they were both lapped, though. So there's Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull up front, and everyone else is over a lap slower? That's fucking ridiculous.
It's literally the softest penalty they can give. From what I've read, the race director can tell a driver to give up an advantage for cutting a corner entirely at his or her discretion but they can not do this for re-joining the track in an unsafe manner. That has to be a penalty and there's nothing below a 5s time penalty.
The two penalty points he may have automatically picked up from it can be appealed and will more than likely be wiped though.
So then why didn't they consider what Vettel did cutting the corner and gaining an advantage since that was the penalty that was broken, not an unsafe re-entry unless we are going to start giving time penalties to people when they crash, too.
Yeah, that's been Ricciardo's lot the whole time I've been watching F1.
Renault had a great result in general. Both Ricciardo and Hulkenberg put in great drives. I didn't realize they were both lapped, though. So there's Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull up front, and everyone else is over a lap slower? That's fucking ridiculous.
Do you think it's ridiculous that LMPs lap GT cars in endurance races?
F1 is a two tier race, they just don't like to admit it.
And yes, if Ferrari/Merc/Red Bull get beat by the lower teams it is just as embarrasing as an LMP car losing to a GT car.
Veevee on
0
Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
They all have the same regulations, the same restrictions. It's not a two tier race.
I can't imagine this being tolerated anywhere else. Imagine if there were only three teams that ever win the Stanley Cup, and there was zero chance any other team could do it.
They all have the same regulations, the same restrictions. It's not a two tier race.
I can't imagine this being tolerated anywhere else. Imagine if there were only three teams that ever win the Stanley Cup, and there was zero chance any other team could do it.
Indy is Penske and Andretti, everyone else is a second tier team. NASCAR is Rousch and RCR with a hint of Gibbs or Stewert/Haas, everyone else is a second tier team.
It may seem like an extreme in F1, but so is everything else about F1
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
They all have the same regulations, the same restrictions. It's not a two tier race.
Budgets differ too much for it not to be a two tier race.
And then you consider how the money is split between the teams...
Seriously in need of a reform. Both the regulations and the cash situation.
( < . . .
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
If anything the money should be split in reverse. F1 needs a negative feedback loop in place, something that helps lower placed teams catch up, and makes it harder to dominate for extended periods. All other sports have this - draft lotteries, etc.
F1s revenue strategy is in line with other sports. The teams that draw the most people make the most money.
The difference is there is broad room for innovation in other sports in many dimensions
F1 regs are so draconian now that lower tier teams can't even take risks even if they wanted to
All you can do in F1 right now is spend 250 million dollars on sculpting half your front wing... So yeah we're now in a situation where even that is getting capped
Open the regs. I want to see another 6 wheeler in my lifetime goddamnit
So much of the stuff that is there supposedly with the intention of reducing the cost of being competitive is at best net neutral too. Big teams can afford more computing resources for cfd and more wind tunnel time so lets limit those. Now smaller teams would need to spend even more money to get as much out of the limited time/flops as the big teams. Gotta make the engines last longer to cut down on the number used so lets keep increasing the required reliability. Now Renault and Honda have a much harder time making up their power deficits and we can't have them taking chances to challenge in more races at the expense of reliability because it will always cost their teams more points in the long run. Teams that can't compete in the simulation space have more to gain for less money from on track testing, but we'll limit the fuck out of that to cut costs too. Renault and Honda would likely net benefit from more testing opportunities too.
You're struggling so we give you no money. You have no money so we introduce these cost saving measures. The cost saving measures cut out any realistic path to improvement you could potentially afford, so you continue to struggle.
Like the most depressing thing about Formula 1 is that in its current state, Ferrari are literally the only team who can realistically maybe make a car that could challenge Mercedes for the title, and that's not changing for at least the next few years. Redbull and McLaren are the only teams with a realistic chance of building a better car, and they won't have the engine to compete at more than a half dozen races at best.
0
Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
☠☠☠
⚠⚠⚠ WARNING
⚠⚠⚠
☠☠☠
Nobody here is going to like what I'm about to sing to you, but it's true and I am right:
♪♩♫♩ kill the aero, oh baby kill the aero, it's what's been murdering overtaking for the last two decades plus, yeah baby kill the aeroooo... ♩♪♩♫
Nobody here is going to like what I'm about to sing to you, but it's true and I am right:
♪♩♫♩ kill the aero, oh baby kill the aero, it's what's been murdering overtaking for the last two decades plus, yeah baby kill the aeroooo... ♩♪♩♫
Well, I'm literally starting the process to attempt to become an aerodynamicist in order to change things for the better. That is certainly one option, but my more prefered option is to force a certain percentage of moved air towards the center of the car and under the rear wing to make it easier for the trailing car to follow through the corners.
I just got my acceptance letter for the Applied Math, Engineering & Physics degree program. So I'll let you know how that goes.
I also have this suspicion that there is a serious flaw with wind tunnel testing. The car is the one moving through the air, not the air moving past the car. It's a decent analog, but there has to be better ways to do this now. I've got some ideas in how to get rid of wind tunnels, but I'll need to earn some clout first, of course.
Nobody here is going to like what I'm about to sing to you, but it's true and I am right:
♪♩♫♩ kill the aero, oh baby kill the aero, it's what's been murdering overtaking for the last two decades plus, yeah baby kill the aeroooo... ♩♪♩♫
Well, I'm literally starting the process to attempt to become an aerodynamicist in order to change things for the better. That is certainly one option, but my more prefered option is to force a certain percentage of moved air towards the center of the car and under the rear wing to make it easier for the trailing car to follow through the corners.
I just got my acceptance letter for the Applied Math, Engineering & Physics degree program. So I'll let you know how that goes.
I also have this suspicion that there is a serious flaw with wind tunnel testing. The car is the one moving through the air, not the air moving past the car. It's a decent analog, but there has to be better ways to do this now. I've got some ideas in how to get rid of wind tunnels, but I'll need to earn some clout first, of course.
Instead of a box to sit in on the end, put your F1 car?
Nobody here is going to like what I'm about to sing to you, but it's true and I am right:
♪♩♫♩ kill the aero, oh baby kill the aero, it's what's been murdering overtaking for the last two decades plus, yeah baby kill the aeroooo... ♩♪♩♫
Well, I'm literally starting the process to attempt to become an aerodynamicist in order to change things for the better. That is certainly one option, but my more prefered option is to force a certain percentage of moved air towards the center of the car and under the rear wing to make it easier for the trailing car to follow through the corners.
I just got my acceptance letter for the Applied Math, Engineering & Physics degree program. So I'll let you know how that goes.
I also have this suspicion that there is a serious flaw with wind tunnel testing. The car is the one moving through the air, not the air moving past the car. It's a decent analog, but there has to be better ways to do this now. I've got some ideas in how to get rid of wind tunnels, but I'll need to earn some clout first, of course.
Instead of a box to sit in on the end, put your F1 car?
That video actually made those turns look relatively slow and lazy, which knowing they're not just makes me go :eek:
Those cars make that look so effortless its insane
Veevee on
0
Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
Yeah that corner's basically Eau Rouge but missing the elevation change, it's pretty great. Not as good as Eau Rouge, obviously, but still pretty great.
Middle of the video, spectators all staring at phones until the jet engine sound approaches, look up, follow around corner, right back into phones, repeat. Our world is broken.
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Middle of the video, spectators all staring at phones until the jet engine sound approaches, look up, follow around corner, right back into phones, repeat. Our world is broken.
I'm not sure what #woke type of comment you're trying to make but they're using their phones to watch the rest of the race and listen to the commentary instead of missing the portions of the race they can't see.
Middle of the video, spectators all staring at phones until the jet engine sound approaches, look up, follow around corner, right back into phones, repeat. Our world is broken.
I'm not sure what #woke type of comment you're trying to make but they're using their phones to watch the rest of the race and listen to the commentary instead of missing the portions of the race they can't see.
Well, you can still listen to race radio while enjoying the spectacle that’s right in front of you.
Middle of the video, spectators all staring at phones until the jet engine sound approaches, look up, follow around corner, right back into phones, repeat. Our world is broken.
I'm not sure what #woke type of comment you're trying to make but they're using their phones to watch the rest of the race and listen to the commentary instead of missing the portions of the race they can't see.
Well, you can still listen to race radio while enjoying the spectacle that’s right in front of you.
And, when no cars around, watch the rest of the race with modern technology. As they were d
Middle of the video, spectators all staring at phones until the jet engine sound approaches, look up, follow around corner, right back into phones, repeat. Our world is broken.
I'm not sure what #woke type of comment you're trying to make but they're using their phones to watch the rest of the race and listen to the commentary instead of missing the portions of the race they can't see.
Well, you can still listen to race radio while enjoying the spectacle that’s right in front of you.
The spectacle of an empty section of track? They looked up when they heard the cars coming, so they were watching when stuff was happening in front of them, and when that wasn't happening they were keeping up with what was happening on the rest of the track.
To be fair to DD, the last automotive spectacle I went to, NHRA in Chicago a couple weeks ago, I spent the time between runs talking to others around me and drinking alcohol. We did not spend that time on smart phones.
To be fair to the crowd in australia, there wasn't anything going on between runs. I would probably have my phone on and streaming if I were there, too.
i don't follow WEC... isn't his car like 2 seconds a lap faster than everyone else's? Has this dumb class been competitive ever in the past 10 years?
Yes, when all 3 manufacturers were running (Toyota, Porsche, Audi.)
There's a lot of news going around at the moment about significantly changing the regs for this (what will probably be rebranded) LMP1 class. They're going to accept road-going hypercars like the Aston Martin Vaykarie to be spec'd for racing, and Toyota are going to make some road versions of their next prototype. They're courting other manufacturers too so I hope it's more competitive next year
Posts
Probably.
Steam | XBL
My view is the penalty should not have been given, but I also know my views on what racing is drastically different from what the FIA want. I come from a NASCAR viewpoint on road racing, where using the bumper to get around someone is a dirty but perfectly legal way to pass. I understand why that is something the FIA does not want, they view racing as a Gentlemen's sport (edit: and at the speeds these cars operate "using the bumper" is just plain stupid dangerous), so what Vettel did needs to be a penalty. I think the idea of making Vettel give up the position would have been the right call because, had Vettel stayed left like the FIA says he should have that would have been the result. It would have been controversial still, but it wouldn't have killed the race like a time penalty did.
Is 5 seconds really the minimum time penalty? That's an eternity in F1
How about Vettel keeps his car on the track? The double standards on this one are ridiculous.
I’ve yet to see any argument that makes it anything but an unsafe rejoining the track. It doesn’t matter if he didn’t intend to do it, it still happened and in a way that forced Hamilton to evade and prevented a nigh on certain pass. Verstappen did the same thing at Japan last year and got the exact same penalty. Should we simply ignore the rules for race leaders, or only when it benefits Hamilton/Merc? Corner cutting is something the stewards are very lenient on, unsafe re-entry is not.
If the penalty had been giving up the position he has 20 laps to maybe make something happen with his straight line speed under DRS.
However, a five second penalty is just crippling.
The two penalty points he may have automatically picked up from it can be appealed and will more than likely be wiped though.
I'm pretty firmly on the side of him deserving SOME kind of penalty though.
A five second penalty is idiotic as the minimum, this is Formula 1, not GT racing. Five seconds may as well be five minutes.
A one second penalty would have been far more suitable.
Honestly, an after-the-race decision with some +X grid penalty would have worked out perfectly: you don't alter the current race, but there is a penalty handed down.
Still, I would very much prefer that they find consistency first in how and when they apply penalties.
Renault had a great result in general. Both Ricciardo and Hulkenberg put in great drives. I didn't realize they were both lapped, though. So there's Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull up front, and everyone else is over a lap slower? That's fucking ridiculous.
So then why didn't they consider what Vettel did cutting the corner and gaining an advantage since that was the penalty that was broken, not an unsafe re-entry unless we are going to start giving time penalties to people when they crash, too.
Do you think it's ridiculous that LMPs lap GT cars in endurance races?
F1 is a two tier race, they just don't like to admit it.
And yes, if Ferrari/Merc/Red Bull get beat by the lower teams it is just as embarrasing as an LMP car losing to a GT car.
I can't imagine this being tolerated anywhere else. Imagine if there were only three teams that ever win the Stanley Cup, and there was zero chance any other team could do it.
Indy is Penske and Andretti, everyone else is a second tier team. NASCAR is Rousch and RCR with a hint of Gibbs or Stewert/Haas, everyone else is a second tier team.
It may seem like an extreme in F1, but so is everything else about F1
Budgets differ too much for it not to be a two tier race.
And only two of the teams with budgets have access to a good enough engine.
And then you consider how the money is split between the teams...
Seriously in need of a reform. Both the regulations and the cash situation.
The difference is there is broad room for innovation in other sports in many dimensions
F1 regs are so draconian now that lower tier teams can't even take risks even if they wanted to
All you can do in F1 right now is spend 250 million dollars on sculpting half your front wing... So yeah we're now in a situation where even that is getting capped
Open the regs. I want to see another 6 wheeler in my lifetime goddamnit
You're struggling so we give you no money. You have no money so we introduce these cost saving measures. The cost saving measures cut out any realistic path to improvement you could potentially afford, so you continue to struggle.
Like the most depressing thing about Formula 1 is that in its current state, Ferrari are literally the only team who can realistically maybe make a car that could challenge Mercedes for the title, and that's not changing for at least the next few years. Redbull and McLaren are the only teams with a realistic chance of building a better car, and they won't have the engine to compete at more than a half dozen races at best.
⚠⚠⚠
WARNING
⚠⚠⚠
☠☠☠
Nobody here is going to like what I'm about to sing to you, but it's true and I am right:
♪♩♫♩ kill the aero, oh baby kill the aero, it's what's been murdering overtaking for the last two decades plus, yeah baby kill the aeroooo... ♩♪♩♫
Well, I'm literally starting the process to attempt to become an aerodynamicist in order to change things for the better. That is certainly one option, but my more prefered option is to force a certain percentage of moved air towards the center of the car and under the rear wing to make it easier for the trailing car to follow through the corners.
I just got my acceptance letter for the Applied Math, Engineering & Physics degree program. So I'll let you know how that goes.
I also have this suspicion that there is a serious flaw with wind tunnel testing. The car is the one moving through the air, not the air moving past the car. It's a decent analog, but there has to be better ways to do this now. I've got some ideas in how to get rid of wind tunnels, but I'll need to earn some clout first, of course.
Instead of a box to sit in on the end, put your F1 car?
And there are photography techniques now to capture the air movement without using smoke or any other visible analog.
Steam | XBL
Those cars make that look so effortless its insane
i don't follow WEC... isn't his car like 2 seconds a lap faster than everyone else's? Has this dumb class been competitive ever in the past 10 years?
Middle of the video, spectators all staring at phones until the jet engine sound approaches, look up, follow around corner, right back into phones, repeat. Our world is broken.
I'm not sure what #woke type of comment you're trying to make but they're using their phones to watch the rest of the race and listen to the commentary instead of missing the portions of the race they can't see.
Well, you can still listen to race radio while enjoying the spectacle that’s right in front of you.
Yes, when all 3 manufacturers were running (Toyota, Porsche, Audi.)
And, when no cars around, watch the rest of the race with modern technology. As they were d
The spectacle of an empty section of track? They looked up when they heard the cars coming, so they were watching when stuff was happening in front of them, and when that wasn't happening they were keeping up with what was happening on the rest of the track.
To be fair to the crowd in australia, there wasn't anything going on between runs. I would probably have my phone on and streaming if I were there, too.
There's a lot of news going around at the moment about significantly changing the regs for this (what will probably be rebranded) LMP1 class. They're going to accept road-going hypercars like the Aston Martin Vaykarie to be spec'd for racing, and Toyota are going to make some road versions of their next prototype. They're courting other manufacturers too so I hope it's more competitive next year