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[WOW] Look at me, I'm flying ! Woooo ! (after the servers come up)

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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    I think one thing to consider is that by the time you can kill the boss, you don't need the weapon to do it cause you already did.

    And most of the time you can kill a few bosses one difficulty higher before the previous difficulty's final boss. So you will prolly end up getting a higher ilvl weapon anyway than those who can only get it off the final guy.

    And for anyone mythic well, grats you have the highest ilvl weapon to kill the final boss harder.

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    HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    Flying

    *The team will not be adding flying to Draenor.
    *Moving forward, new expansions are also unlikely to have flying outside of specific zones or expansion ideas.
    *The team will continue to improve flight paths.
    *Being able to fly added convenience, but removed the ability to add things like targeted exploration of the world and made the world feel smaller and less dangerous.

    Unfortunate, but unsurprising. Oh well.

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    Slayer of DreamsSlayer of Dreams Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    Flying

    *The team will not be adding flying to Draenor.
    *Moving forward, new expansions are also unlikely to have flying outside of specific zones or expansion ideas.
    *The team will continue to improve flight paths.
    *Being able to fly added convenience, but removed the ability to add things like targeted exploration of the world and made the world feel smaller and less dangerous.


    No it fucking didn't, it made it more difficult to do. There's tons of shit to find and explore with flying. It just means the quest guys or the guys that do the world building have to actually put some fucking effort into it and not just shrug and put a fucking wall to block an "easy mode" path off.

    Edit - Or have flying the be the result of exploring and discovery. Have it be from an achievement for finding all of the treasures, or killing all of the rares in the expac zones. That means you can leave it until the very end when the last of the zones is unlocked, but -it is still there- for people to fuck around with after all of the content is already done.

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    FairchildFairchild Rabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?" Registered User regular
    Flying

    *The team will not be adding flying to Draenor.
    *Moving forward, new expansions are also unlikely to have flying outside of specific zones or expansion ideas.
    *The team will continue to improve flight paths.
    *Being able to fly added convenience, but removed the ability to add things like targeted exploration of the world and made the world feel smaller and less dangerous.


    No it fucking didn't, it made it more difficult to do. There's tons of shit to find and explore with flying. It just means the quest guys or the guys that do the world building have to actually put some fucking effort into it and not just shrug and put a fucking wall to block an "easy mode" path off.

    Edit - Or have flying the be the result of exploring and discovery. Have it be from an achievement for finding all of the treasures, or killing all of the rares in the expac zones. That means you can leave it until the very end when the last of the zones is unlocked, but -it is still there- for people to fuck around with after all of the content is already done.

    I think we are seeing that this new group of WOW devs, now that the TITAN people have been shuffled in, will be taking the path of least resistance when it comes to thorny decisions like this. It's easier to leave flight out, so flight has got to go.

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    BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    Really I feel like anything people's wallets will speak louder than just words.
    This was a rather dumb and lazy choice on their behalf.

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    The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    Well, on the positive side they just saved me a whole hell of a lot of money with their idiot shit by confirming that I will never need to spend a cent on WOW again!

    I suppose it is nice to have it confirmed that they are for sure going to leave their heads comfortably in their rectums, than hold on to a vain hope that they might regain a fucking clue and be capable of actually designing content around the game they already made and products they happily took money for.

    I feel like this is the point in the show where we are told the moral of the story, but I'm not seeing it.

    Though, I suppose "haha fuck you!" Is a moral unto itself.

    https://youtu.be/LYzn2EJGQdI

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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Normally I'm great a rolling with the punches, but this one is the first time I'm honestly wondering if I'm going to continue playing after this expansion is done. I often lament how much time I spend on this game, at the expense of new releases, so this very likely made my decision much easier.

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    danxdanx Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    Flying

    *The team will not be adding flying to Draenor.
    *Moving forward, new expansions are also unlikely to have flying outside of specific zones or expansion ideas.
    *The team will continue to improve flight paths.
    *Being able to fly added convenience, but removed the ability to add things like targeted exploration of the world and made the world feel smaller and less dangerous.


    No it fucking didn't, it made it more difficult to do. There's tons of shit to find and explore with flying. It just means the quest guys or the guys that do the world building have to actually put some fucking effort into it and not just shrug and put a fucking wall to block an "easy mode" path off.

    Edit - Or have flying the be the result of exploring and discovery. Have it be from an achievement for finding all of the treasures, or killing all of the rares in the expac zones. That means you can leave it until the very end when the last of the zones is unlocked, but -it is still there- for people to fuck around with after all of the content is already done.

    I have never been impressed with the size of expansion continents or their content. It's no surprise to me they want to extend it by wasting peoples time rather than providing more or better quality content. It takes them 18 months to 2 years to build a small continent with forgettable clickables filled with mobs using the same retextured models and uninteresting quests. If they actually had to put some effort in to anything but raids it'd take timescales like Diablo 2 to 3.

    With that said they might be right in some sense when it comes to flying. I'm playing the witcher 3 at the moment and it's great to find random stuff in the world riding around on a horse. It's often not much more than a hut surrounded by bandits guarding treasure or a bunch of dead bodies in a camp. Sometimes you find stuff that sends you on a quest that you never knew existed and was not sign posted by the game. It works because the main content and quests in that game are so well done and presented. The side stuff is no chore even when it's little more than a wow treasure (sometimes they are "worse" like some materials).

    The trouble with applying this to WoW is it's crap at providing that experience. They don't even try to provide context for things. They're just treasures that feel random and unconnected to the world. They're just there to collect. People only care about getting from point A to point B be it a rep grind, a dungeon, a place in the world. After the first time it's about efficiency and even the first time isn't compelling in any way. If they could actually achieve something by taking flying away I'd be less resistant to it but they've failed so far. As it stands now the world of World of Warcraft is irrelevant.

    danx on
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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    This also makes putting a flying mount on their shop all the stranger. With all the mechanisms they put in place for players to skip or seriously expedite everything pre-Draenor, and now their decision to all but remove flying for Draenor and beyond, that severely depreciates their value

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    FairchildFairchild Rabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?" Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    This also makes putting a flying mount on their shop all the stranger. With all the mechanisms they put in place for players to skip or seriously expedite everything pre-Draenor, and now their decision to all but remove flying for Draenor and beyond, that severely depreciates their value

    Indeed. I'd like to see them compensate people who bought the new WOD flight mount just before they took away flight. Give them a couple of game tokens or a free boost.

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    KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    I was about to turn my account back on, mess around with some alts, LFR the new raid stuff...but in light of this I'm not sure I want to. Not because of flying itself, per se, but what this represents in terms of development moving forward.

    edit: This is sort of funny, that they're giving up on flying just as FFXIV is gearing up to unleash flying (with gating so you can't fly over everything right off the bat, and ridiculously scenic and massive environments.)

    Kamar on
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    InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    I guess the Titan devs are back in charge.
    Oh well. I don't have incentive to leave my garrison anyways, so not like flying makes that much of a difference. With all of my personal teleports, I don't even travel that far when I do have to leave.

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    OptyOpty Registered User regular
    The way this expansion has been designed I can't imagine anyone except for people who do Archaeology or people on PvP servers who want to fly directly into the raid entrances sincerely miss flying. The complaining just reads to me as people bitching for bitching's sake, that people miss the "idea" of being able to fly more than actually miss flying.

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    Slayer of DreamsSlayer of Dreams Registered User regular
    Invisible wrote: »
    I guess the Titan devs are back in charge.
    Oh well. I don't have incentive to leave my garrison anyways, so not like flying makes that much of a difference. With all of my personal teleports, I don't even travel that far when I do have to leave.

    I will say one thing - Garrisons sure did change how people played WoW. For better or worse is up to each person to decide, though.

    I've already canceled my auto renew on my sub, and unless some stuff changes on what's coming in the future, I doubt I'll bother even spending the gold to keep it active.

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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    I thought their approach with this in MoP was a great balance.

    No flying at the start, but made available as soon as the world content was deemed outdated by raid content.

    Then introducing specific grounded content zones without it, but keeping it available in the main world just for conveniences sake.

    I really expected them to add it to everywhere but Tanaan Jungle this coming patch.

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    ICUbICUb WARegistered User regular
    Invisible wrote: »
    I guess the Titan devs are back in charge.
    Oh well. I don't have incentive to leave my garrison anyways, so not like flying makes that much of a difference. With all of my personal teleports, I don't even travel that far when I do have to leave.

    Seems odd they'd put people from a failed project in charge of a successful one.



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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    ICUb wrote: »
    Invisible wrote: »
    I guess the Titan devs are back in charge.
    Oh well. I don't have incentive to leave my garrison anyways, so not like flying makes that much of a difference. With all of my personal teleports, I don't even travel that far when I do have to leave.

    Seems odd they'd put people from a failed project in charge of a successful one.

    That's what happens when a lot of the people that made the project successful in the first place are long gone, working for other dev studios for better or worse or working on other Blizzard games, like Overwatch, Metzen's new baby. You put whoever you can in the driver's seat, and they have to cut corners to hit deadlines and throw something to the players. Flying is a pain for cutting corners. So just cut it instead!

    And I honestly don't even see why you need continents anymore if all you can do is just sit in your garrison and only leave to raid or do some instanced PvP on occasion, maybe Timeless Isle things. So in that light, flying really wasn't worth the effort anymore. Maybe they'll think about not making any more of those in the future and keep all new content instanced.

    People who are angry with this change can take heart, however, in knowing that in less then a month, Final Fantasy 14 is going to add flying mounts/options to their new expansion content and plenty of places to use it. If you like it so much, you have alternatives.

    488W936.png
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    OptyOpty Registered User regular
    Has FF14 gone over how they're going to avoid the trap WoW fell into with their flying mounts?

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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Opty wrote: »
    Has FF14 gone over how they're going to avoid the trap WoW fell into with their flying mounts?

    Which trap is that?

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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    Opty wrote: »
    Has FF14 gone over how they're going to avoid the trap WoW fell into with their flying mounts?

    I never really understood what supposed trap WoW fell into with flying mounts. You can fly directly to your objectives and/or avoid bullshit trash and geometry in your way? Fine with me, you still need to put the time and effort in to do the thing, and still fight things presumably depending on what you are doing. I had a lot of that going on when I did the Netherwing dailies in BC way back when on my flying mounts. It's a time sail rather then a sink like land movement is and gives you options.

    FF14 has made it so that you cannot fly in a zone until you have completed the initial content of a zone and learned how to maneuver in it's wind currents. Each time you learn the current, you can fly in that zone from there on out. A lot of the content in the expansion is being designed with this in mind, up to and including most monsters out in the environment and especially in primal strongholds being more powerful and requiring players to team up to defeat them, negating players just swooping in solo for a lot of things and trashing face. In that sense it doesn't seem like it's going to be a super convenience, but we don't know for sure yet. There is still experimenting to do on both the devs and players parts.

    I am not arguing that FF14 has necessarily perfected the idea of giving players active flight anywhere they want, but I am glad they are at least giving it a try and are willing to recognize that there are positives and advantages for world building in utilizing the Z axis. How it plays out remains to be seen, but from what we've seen so far, it seems like it's going to be pretty cool and not necessarily game breaking. And it seems like an interesting juxtaposition to me that they are willing to try to make it work whereas WoW has decided to retreat from it recently, which isn't something I agree with from a game design perspective.

    488W936.png
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    the problem with WoW's flying is that they give you flying everywhere but then still keep putting all the content on the ground.

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    OptyOpty Registered User regular
    From that description of FF14's implementation they're making the mistake of making content shittier to justify having flying. It's not a good thing that content that would have originally been soloable is made to require a group because of flying.

    WoW's main mistake with flying was portraying it as a reward rather than a utility. The main way they did this was by making flying so much faster than being on the ground. That speed difference shrinks the world for the flyers if it's designed around being on the ground (TBC, WoD) and it makes the world too goddamn large for the people on the ground if it's designed for the flyers (Wrath, Cata, MoP). It's probably the most destructive consequence of flying in WoW.

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    SomeWarlockSomeWarlock Registered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    Has FF14 gone over how they're going to avoid the trap WoW fell into with their flying mounts?

    I never really understood what supposed trap WoW fell into with flying mounts. You can fly directly to your objectives and/or avoid bullshit trash and geometry in your way? Fine with me, you still need to put the time and effort in to do the thing, and still fight things presumably depending on what you are doing. I had a lot of that going on when I did the Netherwing dailies in BC way back when on my flying mounts. It's a time sail rather then a sink like land movement is and gives you options.

    FF14 has made it so that you cannot fly in a zone until you have completed the initial content of a zone and learned how to maneuver in it's wind currents. Each time you learn the current, you can fly in that zone from there on out. A lot of the content in the expansion is being designed with this in mind, up to and including most monsters out in the environment and especially in primal strongholds being more powerful and requiring players to team up to defeat them, negating players just swooping in solo for a lot of things and trashing face. In that sense it doesn't seem like it's going to be a super convenience, but we don't know for sure yet. There is still experimenting to do on both the devs and players parts.

    I am not arguing that FF14 has necessarily perfected the idea of giving players active flight anywhere they want, but I am glad they are at least giving it a try and are willing to recognize that there are positives and advantages for world building in utilizing the Z axis. How it plays out remains to be seen, but from what we've seen so far, it seems like it's going to be pretty cool and not necessarily game breaking. And it seems like an interesting juxtaposition to me that they are willing to try to make it work whereas WoW has decided to retreat from it recently, which isn't something I agree with from a game design perspective.

    The other thing to note is that flying in FF14 is less useful than it is in WoW, because as it stands, you can just teleport to nearly every quest hub in the game, and there's a enough hubs that you're a 1-2 minute run from almost anything you could care about. Add in that random trash mobs are fewer, more spread out, and less aggressive than WoW's, and getting around isn't a punch in the dick all the time.

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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    It helps that FFXIV doesn't have to deal with world PvP stuff.

    YL9WnCY.png
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    InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    My main problems with ground travel in WoW is that there are way too many bullshit mobs in between objectives. The weird paths to some objectives just adds to it.

    I still have fun, but I doubt I'll keep my subscription much longer. It's not just flying, I just haven't seen the content added to justify a subscription.

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    LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    the problem with WoW's flying is that they give you flying everywhere but then still keep putting all the content on the ground.

    Yeah, this right here has never made any sense to me. There are only a few places in the game where they actually designed the zones with the z-axis in mind. Hell, even in BC where they designed specific content to be locked behind having a flying mount weren't really vertical, just unreachable without flying (netherwing, the highlands in terokkar, the similar place in hellfire).


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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    the problem with WoW's flying is that they give you flying everywhere but then still keep putting all the content on the ground.

    I miss Vash'jir. The one and only 3D flying zone.

    We'll see how long this blog lasts
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    Well, I'm glad we killed Blackhand this week, cause:
    [Requires a realm restart.] Slag Bombs' explosion now damages players in a 6 yard radius (down from 10 yards) on Normal and Heroic difficulties.
    Incendiary Shot's damage has been reduced by 25% on Normal, Heroic, and Mythic difficulties.
    Blackhand's Shattering Smash now deals 25% less damage during Stage Two on Normal, Heroic, and Mythic difficulties.

    Those are some nerfs.

    We'll see how long this blog lasts
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    LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    Wow, that shot nerf is huge. That's such a massive portion of the P2 damage, and it's being cut by a whole 25%. Crazy.

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    HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    edited May 2015
    I'll say this - it takes some massive balls to effectively kill your web store mount purchases just two weeks after the biggest subscriber loss in your game's history. I mean, the picture on the main page of their official website has the newest released mount (released just last week in fact) flying over a forest. You have to wonder just what the hell is going on over there.

    Halfmex on
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    SteevLSteevL What can I do for you? Registered User regular
    As someone who doesn't really care about flying in Draenor, I'm surprised about the announcement. I was certain they'd allow flying by the end of the expansion.

    It'll be interesting to see if this affects subscriptions. They obviously seem confident that the effect will be negligible, or they just don't care.

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    MugsleyMugsley DelawareRegistered User regular
    So let me get this straight. Flying forces them to add more robust 3D models to everything in the game. And all content is properly modeled so that flying doesn't make it look odd.

    And now they are taking away flying. So why bother with all the effort to place 3D content/models/world going forward?

    If they are removing flight, I want a faster release schedule to compensate. This move essentially cuts development work by - arguably - about 1/3 (mostly arbitrary number but I think it's got merit).

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    LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    Mugsley wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. Flying forces them to add more robust 3D models to everything in the game. And all content is properly modeled so that flying doesn't make it look odd.

    And now they are taking away flying. So why bother with all the effort to place 3D content/models/world going forward?

    If they are removing flight, I want a faster release schedule to compensate. This move essentially cuts development work by - arguably - about 1/3 (mostly arbitrary number but I think it's got merit).

    But they still have to model everything because we have tools like aviana's feather or the shredder's jump ability or the hang gliders in nagrand. It's the worst of both worlds!

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    BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    LD50 wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    the problem with WoW's flying is that they give you flying everywhere but then still keep putting all the content on the ground.

    Yeah, this right here has never made any sense to me. There are only a few places in the game where they actually designed the zones with the z-axis in mind. Hell, even in BC where they designed specific content to be locked behind having a flying mount weren't really vertical, just unreachable without flying (netherwing, the highlands in terokkar, the similar place in hellfire).

    Those were walls and were rather annoying to run into if you went afk for a drink or to the bathroom

    Really put flying in the game for Draenor but show the Iron Horde has flying mounts and the arakkoa are up and ready to take you down to the ground as well

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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2015
    yeah honestly just add content into the air

    BC had flying guards around faction bases that would dismount you if you flew past

    and Cata had lots of flying mechanics in raids, like Alysrazor, where the game tracked your position in Z axis for collision purposes

    combine the two and have iron horde flying around on wyverns shooting dodgeable projectiles at you while you're in flight in hostile zones.

    the answer to "flight is boring because it lets you skip content on the ground" isn't "remove flying" it's "expand flying"

    Dhalphir on
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    LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    Vash'jir is probably the best cata zone, and it's the only zone that was pretty heavily 3d. There were a few other places like the out of control airship in deepholm (which is one of my favorite subquest/zoneish/whatever things in that otherwise boring area). There was a little bit of depth to icecrown and storm peaks.

    All in all it feels like a pretty squandered opportunity, and I hope FFXIV capitalizes on it.

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    BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    Invisible wrote: »
    My main problems with ground travel in WoW is that there are way too many bullshit mobs in between objectives. The weird paths to some objectives just adds to it.

    I still have fun, but I doubt I'll keep my subscription much longer. It's not just flying, I just haven't seen the content added to justify a subscription.

    That is why you should play a rogue
    Stealth in kill or grab X stealth out
    I feel this is why I have too many rogues

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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    Or the superior option: Any druid spec! 8-)

    We'll see how long this blog lasts
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    BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    Aegis wrote: »
    Or the superior option: Any druid spec! 8-)

    Boomkin still falls under not stealthed

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    LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    The number of places filled with mobs where I just run in fall tilt, aggro everything, find an empty corner near my objective and invis to drop everything is truly staggering.

    I have a podcast about Digimon called the Digital Moncast, on Audio Entropy.
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