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[WOW] Look at me, I'm flying ! Woooo ! (after the servers come up)

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    KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    You know, I really don't get people getting worked up about criticisms of the game.

    Like, there are people in this thread who always seem one half-breath away from saying anyone complaining anything is an ignorant scrub, and I'm not sure where that blend of naive optimism about the devs and cynical vitriol towards your peers comes from.

    It's like some weird "WoW doesn't fail people, people fail WoW" mentality.

    Kamar on
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2015
    Morkath wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    The main reason I quit, was because I honestly think there isn't a dev actually plays the Shaman class, especially Elemental.

    \Oh my god, seriously you and all of the other people like you need to stop saying this bullshit

    Devs who play "your class" are not some mythical champions of your class' downtrodden peasantry who wield sword and spear in internal company meetings to ensure that "their class" is always the best or is always fun or always whatever.

    This is a fucking COMPANY where people have JOBS. It's not goddamn Reddit.

    For fuck's sake.

    And designers playing one class/weapon/skill/build/whatever more to another to a degree that it affects balance is a thing, so maybe tone back the outrage there.

    How on earth does the class you play in your spare time affect how the entire team decides to balance things? You're talking utter nonsense.

    Blizzard is better at balancing classes than they have ever been. There's maybe a 10% gap between the best and the worst DPS. It used to be 200%!

    Dhalphir on
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2015
    If you can kill normal Blackhand you will stampede to 6 or 7 out of 10 down in heroic BRF. Everything before Maidens/Furnace is easier than normal Blackhand.

    Dhalphir on
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    SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    You know, I really don't get people getting worked up about criticisms of the game.

    Like, there are people in this thread who always seem one half-breath away from saying anyone complaining anything is an ignorant scrub, and I'm not sure where that blend of naive optimism about the devs and cynical vitriol towards your peers comes from.

    It's like some weird "WoW doesn't fail people, people fail WoW" mentality.

    I have plenty if critique if the game, i think they made some poor decisions lately and i barely play these days.

    People who think Blizz employees sit around a table and go "ok which are the classes none of us play personally, let's nerf those" are silly geese regardless. They think a company with earnings in the millions, a parent company, stock holders, hundreds of employees, and millions of customers behaves they way they or their buddy would if they were in charge of the game ("i hate rogues, they always make me jump, nerf nerf nerf").

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    KamarKamar Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Kamar wrote: »
    You know, I really don't get people getting worked up about criticisms of the game.

    Like, there are people in this thread who always seem one half-breath away from saying anyone complaining anything is an ignorant scrub, and I'm not sure where that blend of naive optimism about the devs and cynical vitriol towards your peers comes from.

    It's like some weird "WoW doesn't fail people, people fail WoW" mentality.

    I have plenty if critique if the game, i think they made some poor decisions lately and i barely play these days.

    People who think Blizz employees sit around a table and go "ok which are the classes none of us play personally, let's nerf those" are silly geese regardless. They think a company with earnings in the millions, a parent company, stock holders, hundreds of employees, and millions of customers behaves they way they or their buddy would if they were in charge of the game ("i hate rogues, they always make me jump, nerf nerf nerf").

    The weakness of a particular complaint doesn't really impact my point regarding the vitriol some people throw at complainers in this thread.

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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    Kai_San wrote: »
    Well, playing something doesnt make you good at balancing it, so the point can still be bad.

    Dude could play elemental for days and play with other bad players and see himself top all meters and think 'eh, its fine, others just dont GET it" and thats it.

    But also seriously from what I see Ele is right in the middle and thats pretty well off? There are much worse classes mobility wise and Ele has always been immobile I think. Unless MOP was like the golden age for them.

    Blizzard doesn't need to more designers to play particular classes to make less silly decisions, no. They need to recognize that their particular internal groups handling classes are not in possession of some hidden knowledge about their class areas to the point that the outside class community and theorycrafters are completely ignorant, and act like their approach or assumptions are sacrosanct. An insular group that actively shuts out external, decentralized analysis is far more likely to reinforce incorrect assumptions and analysis.

    It's how we end up with the Windwalker Monk situation of MoP of the designers actively stating that they had intimate knowledge of some stat priority or rotation that somehow the entire monk community was oblivious to, even when pointed out that such a thing was ludicrous; or what seems to be the criticism regarding Elemental Shaman that was touched on by Redcoat.

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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    I have a very low tolerance for people who talk as if Blizzard was filled with whimsical high school children instead of professional game developers. yes, they sometimes make bad choices. Yes, the game is not perfect and in many ways not as good as it was in the past. But in many other ways it is the best it has ever been.

    and I am tired of people mistaking their own burnout on the game for declining quality of the game itself.

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    AstaleAstale Registered User regular
    Any time, any game, where a class is overpowered, you can count the amount of time before someone goes "all the devs play bright wizards/rouges/troopers/telepaths" in seconds.

    It's kind of gotten annoying, and a tad ridiculous.

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    LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    The whole "Ghostcrawler/Ghostcrawler's girlfriend plays a mage" bullshit stuck around for years (I know some people who still think he did) because mages were overpowered at the end of a few expansions. It's almost like mage scaling is broken, and has been for a long time. Maybe the dodgy foundation of the designs is the reason they get OP with better gear, not because one person on an entire team of people played the class in their spare time.

    Even after Ghostcrawler came out and said he played a priest healer, people accused him of lying about not playing a mage. It's ridiculous.

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    LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    Like there is an argument to be made that sometimes the design and balance teams don't listen (or don't seem like they listen) to feedback, but that doesn't mean they aren't trying.

    Class/spec balance is super good right now. Could always be better. My personal peeve is that they seem to disregard scaling as an issue. Rather than design something that scales properly, they seem content to buff/nerf it when the scaling issues crop up.

    Lorahalo on
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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Kamar wrote: »
    You know, I really don't get people getting worked up about criticisms of the game.

    Like, there are people in this thread who always seem one half-breath away from saying anyone complaining anything is an ignorant scrub, and I'm not sure where that blend of naive optimism about the devs and cynical vitriol towards your peers comes from.

    It's like some weird "WoW doesn't fail people, people fail WoW" mentality.

    I have plenty if critique if the game, i think they made some poor decisions lately and i barely play these days.

    People who think Blizz employees sit around a table and go "ok which are the classes none of us play personally, let's nerf those" are silly geese regardless.

    Absolutely no one is saying that. The argument is that because they don't play class/spec X they're not quite as aware of its failings and therefore cannot properly adjust the class/spec.

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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2015
    reVerse wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Kamar wrote: »
    You know, I really don't get people getting worked up about criticisms of the game.

    Like, there are people in this thread who always seem one half-breath away from saying anyone complaining anything is an ignorant scrub, and I'm not sure where that blend of naive optimism about the devs and cynical vitriol towards your peers comes from.

    It's like some weird "WoW doesn't fail people, people fail WoW" mentality.

    I have plenty if critique if the game, i think they made some poor decisions lately and i barely play these days.

    People who think Blizz employees sit around a table and go "ok which are the classes none of us play personally, let's nerf those" are silly geese regardless.

    Absolutely no one is saying that. The argument is that because they don't play class/spec X they're not quite as aware of its failings and therefore cannot properly adjust the class/spec.

    Which is an equally nonsensical thing to think, especially in this current era of WoW, when balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be.

    EDIT: PvE balance at least. I have no idea of the state of PvP, but I think anybody expecting ten classes to be balanced against each other is naive and stupid.

    Dhalphir on
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    TurksonTurkson Near the mountains of ColoradoRegistered User regular
    Aegis wrote: »
    Ghostcrawler amuses me:
    What are you thoughts on blizzard's decision about Flying?

    Resilience will fix it?

    I know many people dislike him, but I miss Ghostcrawler. Especially before he started using twitter. You'd get a nice, long forum post from him explaining their thoughts and ideas behind certain things. I may not have agreed with them, especially when my ret pally was getting nerfed to the ground, but it was nice to have that communication.

    This current group seems hostile. It may be that twitter's character limit really prevents any real communication though.

    oh h*ck
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    AstaleAstale Registered User regular
    Twitter has increased the quantity of communication from game developers by a lot, and decreased the quality by a metric fuckton.

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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Kamar wrote: »
    You know, I really don't get people getting worked up about criticisms of the game.

    Like, there are people in this thread who always seem one half-breath away from saying anyone complaining anything is an ignorant scrub, and I'm not sure where that blend of naive optimism about the devs and cynical vitriol towards your peers comes from.

    It's like some weird "WoW doesn't fail people, people fail WoW" mentality.

    I have plenty if critique if the game, i think they made some poor decisions lately and i barely play these days.

    People who think Blizz employees sit around a table and go "ok which are the classes none of us play personally, let's nerf those" are silly geese regardless.

    Absolutely no one is saying that. The argument is that because they don't play class/spec X they're not quite as aware of its failings and therefore cannot properly adjust the class/spec.

    Which is an equally nonsensical thing to think, especially in this current era of WoW, when balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be.

    What a nonsensical thing to think.

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    Slayer of DreamsSlayer of Dreams Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Kamar wrote: »
    You know, I really don't get people getting worked up about criticisms of the game.

    Like, there are people in this thread who always seem one half-breath away from saying anyone complaining anything is an ignorant scrub, and I'm not sure where that blend of naive optimism about the devs and cynical vitriol towards your peers comes from.

    It's like some weird "WoW doesn't fail people, people fail WoW" mentality.

    I have plenty if critique if the game, i think they made some poor decisions lately and i barely play these days.

    People who think Blizz employees sit around a table and go "ok which are the classes none of us play personally, let's nerf those" are silly geese regardless.

    Absolutely no one is saying that. The argument is that because they don't play class/spec X they're not quite as aware of its failings and therefore cannot properly adjust the class/spec.

    Which is an equally nonsensical thing to think, especially in this current era of WoW, when balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be.

    EDIT: PvE balance at least. I have no idea of the state of PvP, but I think anybody expecting ten classes to be balanced against each other is naive and stupid.

    I would question this being only applicable to PvP because up until very recently, just about every major patch has had a clear "best spec" that was miles ahead of others in the same roles. And yes, I'm talking PvE.

    Edit - Also, there's actually 11 classes, but everyone hates Hunters, so I can see how you might make that mistake.

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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2015
    I would question this being only applicable to PvP because up until very recently, just about every major patch has had a clear "best spec" that was miles ahead of others in the same roles. And yes, I'm talking PvE.

    Edit - Also, there's actually 11 classes, but everyone hates Hunters, so I can see how you might make that mistake.

    A Wrath of the Lich King veteran mistake, I forgot about monks despite playing one.

    Also..."miles ahead"? Can you clarify what you mean by "miles ahead"?

    http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17H.html

    The largest gap I can find within a class is about ~5k DPS between an Arcane Mage and a Frost Mage on single target DPS, working out to about an 11% difference. Certainly more than enough to recommend any raiding mage go Fire, but hardly to the decree of difference there once was, where you may as well not even bother coming to a raid if you didn't want to play the FOTM Mage spec.

    And if you look at the other classes, the gaps are much smaller. Hunters, for example, find that all three of their specs are within +/- 1k DPS of one another at ilevel 685. Warlocks see much the same situation. Feral and Balance druids are almost identical DPS.



    Dhalphir on
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2015
    reVerse wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Which is an equally nonsensical thing to think, especially in this current era of WoW, when balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be.

    What a nonsensical thing to think.

    I have provided sources and actual numbers to back up my assertion. Can you provide any evidence of a time when balance was better than it is now?

    Dhalphir on
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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Which is an equally nonsensical thing to think, especially in this current era of WoW, when balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be.

    What a nonsensical thing to think.

    I have provided sources and actual numbers to back up my assertion. Can you provide any evidence of a time when balance was better than it is now?

    Where's your proof that the current balance is "as near to perfect as it ever can or will be"?

    reVerse on
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2015
    reVerse wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Which is an equally nonsensical thing to think, especially in this current era of WoW, when balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be.

    What a nonsensical thing to think.

    I have provided sources and actual numbers to back up my assertion. Can you provide any evidence of a time when balance was better than it is now?

    Where's your proof that the current balance is "as near to perfect as it ever can or will be"?

    I would call a mere ~17-20% gap between the absolute highest DPS class (Arcane Mage) and the absolute lowest (Ret paladin) pretty much near perfect balance. I certainly can't recall a time when it's ever been better than that. I would challenge anyone to find another game that can take 11 classes and balance them that closely while preserving gameplay differences.

    And the very high and low specs are outliers too, only a few of each. Most classes fall within a very narrow band of DPS.

    http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17H.html

    Dhalphir on
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    Redcoat-13Redcoat-13 Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    The main reason I quit, was because I honestly think there isn't a dev actually plays the Shaman class, especially Elemental.

    \Oh my god, seriously you and all of the other people like you need to stop saying this bullshit

    Devs who play "your class" are not some mythical champions of your class' downtrodden peasantry who wield sword and spear in internal company meetings to ensure that "their class" is always the best or is always fun or always whatever.

    This is a fucking COMPANY where people have JOBS. It's not goddamn Reddit.

    For fuck's sake.

    Maybe you need to calm down a bit?

    I wasn't enjoying the class at all, and whether that is partly because I've played the game and / or spec for too long, who can really say. It's not as if I hate Blizzard or anything, I'm still playing Hearthstone and am looking forward to their other products.

    But there are a series of decisions with the spec that certainly makes you wonder what they think they want from it. I'm baffled that they dismissed all concerns about the spec's dps prior to the expansion hit. I don't understand how you can acknowledge an entire tier of talents (the level 45 ones) as being awful and yet do nothing about it. How can you contemplate a 4 set bonus that asks a spec that typically has poor mobility, to move around? The scaling issues which seem to pop up every expansion now.

    This expansion has had some great content and great design (although I think there are issues with garrisons), it is frustrating that Elemental as a spec is not all that much fun (opinions) for me to then to enjoy the content itself.

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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Which is an equally nonsensical thing to think, especially in this current era of WoW, when balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be.

    What a nonsensical thing to think.

    I have provided sources and actual numbers to back up my assertion. Can you provide any evidence of a time when balance was better than it is now?

    Where's your proof that the current balance is "as near to perfect as it ever can or will be"?

    I would call a mere ~17-20% gap between the absolute highest DPS class (Arcane Mage) and the absolute lowest (Ret paladin) pretty much near perfect balance. I certainly can't recall a time when it's ever been better than that. I would challenge anyone to find another game that can take 11 classes and balance them that closely while preserving gameplay differences.

    And the very high and low specs are outliers too, only a few of each. Most classes fall within a very narrow band of DPS.

    http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17H.html

    So, if come next patch the difference is 13%-16%, what will happen then? Will the universe implode from the overperfection?

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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    reVerse wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Which is an equally nonsensical thing to think, especially in this current era of WoW, when balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be.

    What a nonsensical thing to think.

    I have provided sources and actual numbers to back up my assertion. Can you provide any evidence of a time when balance was better than it is now?

    Where's your proof that the current balance is "as near to perfect as it ever can or will be"?

    I would call a mere ~17-20% gap between the absolute highest DPS class (Arcane Mage) and the absolute lowest (Ret paladin) pretty much near perfect balance. I certainly can't recall a time when it's ever been better than that. I would challenge anyone to find another game that can take 11 classes and balance them that closely while preserving gameplay differences.

    And the very high and low specs are outliers too, only a few of each. Most classes fall within a very narrow band of DPS.

    http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17H.html

    So, if come next patch the difference is 13%-16%, what will happen then? Will the universe implode from the overperfection?

    I think that given variables involved with constantly increasing gear levels, synergy between certain stats and other classes, that about 15-20% is about the best that can be maintained over a long period of time - as gear levels increase, classes rise or fall in power accordingly, and it takes time for Blizzard to make adjustments.

    In any case, the point I was trying to make was that balance is extremely good. Certainly it's possible that Blizzard could tighten the balance further, but there isn't much left room to tighten.

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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Which is an equally nonsensical thing to think, especially in this current era of WoW, when balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be.

    What a nonsensical thing to think.

    I have provided sources and actual numbers to back up my assertion. Can you provide any evidence of a time when balance was better than it is now?

    Where's your proof that the current balance is "as near to perfect as it ever can or will be"?

    I would call a mere ~17-20% gap between the absolute highest DPS class (Arcane Mage) and the absolute lowest (Ret paladin) pretty much near perfect balance. I certainly can't recall a time when it's ever been better than that. I would challenge anyone to find another game that can take 11 classes and balance them that closely while preserving gameplay differences.

    And the very high and low specs are outliers too, only a few of each. Most classes fall within a very narrow band of DPS.

    http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17H.html

    So, if come next patch the difference is 13%-16%, what will happen then? Will the universe implode from the overperfection?

    I think that given variables involved with constantly increasing gear levels, synergy between certain stats and other classes, that about 15-20% is about the best that can be maintained over a long period of time - as gear levels increase, classes rise or fall in power accordingly, and it takes time for Blizzard to make adjustments.

    In any case, the point I was trying to make was that balance is extremely good. Certainly it's possible that Blizzard could tighten the balance further, but there isn't much left room to tighten.

    Seems to me there's about 17%-20% worth of room.

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    OptyOpty Registered User regular
    The numbers that should be brought up when talking about balance is that there's 4 tank specs, 6 healing specs, and 24 DPS specs that need to be balanced with each other, just saying 11 classes undersells the amount of balancing that needs to go on. Unless you make the mechanics for every spec the same and completely remove randomness from combat it's impossible to balance past a certain percentage.

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    BaalorBaalor Registered User regular
    I never understood the demands that every dmg spec in a class must be balanced. I mean, as long as one of the specs is competitive then what is the issue?
    Sure it might "force" some people into a spec they don't enjoy as much but at least they have a choice. As a shadow priest I can only play the worlds smallest violin for that complaint.

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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    Yo you guys, seriously. Dhal is being a little angry but you all are kind of attacking him like this is the official forums where you ignore reason and just be goosey about it.

    Balance is not perfect. Yes it can be annoying. But guess what? Dhal is right. As stupid as some of the decisions Blizz makes sometimes damage balance is actually remarkably close for how DIFFICULT that is to accomplish.

    Also, he is even taking the worst case scenario. What you really need to look at is each classes most capable spec (and in some cases, the combo between two of the best possible specs). When you do that, the numbers are even closer I think. Because in some cases a spec was purposefully designed to have a strength better on some fights because the class has 3 dps specs to use so they need a reason to HAVE more than one spec available.

    The thing I do not agree with though is that we do not know better than the devs. You can be the sole owner of more spreadsheets than any human being could ever handle (blizz having access to more info) but you still cannot compete with millions of people with more time to break it down than you could ever imagine (the players). I might not be a developer, but I think it should be obvious to be good at what you do you need to be capable of admitting what I just said is the case. The players, especially THIS playerbase, can be right and more often than not ARE going to find things the balance team did not intend that completely skew numbers. This is primarilly why balance is never done and it is always going to be a roller coaster ride. The best you can do is make the ups and downs small as shit.

    What confuses me about the blind rage about class balance is that the difference is even smaller unless you are playing at a mythic guild level. And even if you are, this balance difference is pretty much meaningless and able to be overcome unless you are actually raiding mythic.

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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Also not to mention those numbers come from simulated perfect conditions.

    Even on Gruul where my Arcane Mage can stand still and use Rune of Power I'm still moving often because of smashes, fireballs, and cave ins.

    And I can't use Ice Floes to vast while moving because I'm on the immunity team using Evanesce for Inferno Slash.

    So my innate dps needs to be a bit higher to make up for the huge hit it takes when I have to move and for the fact that I have next to no cleave or damage over time effects.

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    antheremantherem Registered User regular
    SteevL wrote: »
    SteevL wrote: »
    Woo, we finally took down Blackhand! Unfortunately I was dead for most of phase 3. We just barely pulled it off, but it felt good to finally kill him.

    Awesome!

    My guild also took down Heroic Blackhand last night. Took all night and we only got him on the last pull. Something about that last pull... focuses everyone's minds. Phase 2 was butter and I was shocked how many people were up after two smashes in Phase 3. Same last pull magic happened on Blast Furnace and Iron Maidens when those were an issue.

    It does feel great. I really like that fight even if it is possibly too punishing.

    Yeah. I survived the first massive shattering smash, but then got hit with a slag mine. I ran to the left to make sure it dropped away from everyone, but didn't notice my health was pretty low and I died as soon as it detonated. Only about half the raid was alive by the time he died. According to DBM, it was our 31st attempt.

    I guess we might start working on heroic BRF next week as we wait for 6.2.

    That bit after the third smash is bananas, when most of the arena is on fire and you're trying to zomg burst in one of the few pockets that isn't burning and can still reach Blackhand.

    I still really don't like his knockback mechanic. Way too fiddly.

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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    SteevL wrote: »
    SteevL wrote: »
    Woo, we finally took down Blackhand! Unfortunately I was dead for most of phase 3. We just barely pulled it off, but it felt good to finally kill him.

    Awesome!

    My guild also took down Heroic Blackhand last night. Took all night and we only got him on the last pull. Something about that last pull... focuses everyone's minds. Phase 2 was butter and I was shocked how many people were up after two smashes in Phase 3. Same last pull magic happened on Blast Furnace and Iron Maidens when those were an issue.

    It does feel great. I really like that fight even if it is possibly too punishing.

    Yeah. I survived the first massive shattering smash, but then got hit with a slag mine. I ran to the left to make sure it dropped away from everyone, but didn't notice my health was pretty low and I died as soon as it detonated. Only about half the raid was alive by the time he died. According to DBM, it was our 31st attempt.

    I guess we might start working on heroic BRF next week as we wait for 6.2.

    What do you mean by "working on" ? How far are you into Heroic already? Because as has been mentioned, even if you're wiping on Normal Blackhand, that means there's quite a bit of Heroic that you could have totally already had cleared, and already had upgrades from to help with Normal Blackhand.

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    MugsleyMugsley DelawareRegistered User regular
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    But there are a series of decisions with the spec that certainly makes you wonder what they think they want from it. I'm baffled that they dismissed all concerns about the spec's dps prior to the expansion hit. I don't understand how you can acknowledge an entire tier of talents (the level 45 ones) as being awful and yet do nothing about it. How can you contemplate a 4 set bonus that asks a spec that typically has poor mobility, to move around? The scaling issues which seem to pop up every expansion now.

    I'm trying to figure out why you're so hung up on the Level 45 talents. The Liquid Magma talent, by itself, has shown me the utility of Totemic Projection; especially on fights like Operator or Beastmaster, where I can move it to hit the largest number of targets. The Level 30 talents are more garbage. I haven't touched any of them since we were working on Ko'ragh and I was trying to help with raid mobility.

    ---
    Managed to kill H-Blackhand within about 6 attempts last night. It was a really good feeling! We then went back into Highmaul to work on some achievements and get a few people their AotC for Imperator. I was able to finish the night by getting the last shards I needed for Val'anyr; so I should be able to get the mace tonight(!). All in all, a great night.

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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    SteevL wrote: »
    SteevL wrote: »
    Woo, we finally took down Blackhand! Unfortunately I was dead for most of phase 3. We just barely pulled it off, but it felt good to finally kill him.

    Awesome!

    My guild also took down Heroic Blackhand last night. Took all night and we only got him on the last pull. Something about that last pull... focuses everyone's minds. Phase 2 was butter and I was shocked how many people were up after two smashes in Phase 3. Same last pull magic happened on Blast Furnace and Iron Maidens when those were an issue.

    It does feel great. I really like that fight even if it is possibly too punishing.

    Yeah. I survived the first massive shattering smash, but then got hit with a slag mine. I ran to the left to make sure it dropped away from everyone, but didn't notice my health was pretty low and I died as soon as it detonated. Only about half the raid was alive by the time he died. According to DBM, it was our 31st attempt.

    I guess we might start working on heroic BRF next week as we wait for 6.2.

    What do you mean by "working on" ? How far are you into Heroic already? Because as has been mentioned, even if you're wiping on Normal Blackhand, that means there's quite a bit of Heroic that you could have totally already had cleared, and already had upgrades from to help with Normal Blackhand.

    we personally didn't go into Heroic until we killed Normal Blackhand, but that's because we only raid one night a week. For any guild raiding multiple, you definitely should be clearing the first half of Heroic alongside normal Blackhand.

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    crimsoncoyotecrimsoncoyote Registered User regular
    Mugsley wrote: »
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    But there are a series of decisions with the spec that certainly makes you wonder what they think they want from it. I'm baffled that they dismissed all concerns about the spec's dps prior to the expansion hit. I don't understand how you can acknowledge an entire tier of talents (the level 45 ones) as being awful and yet do nothing about it. How can you contemplate a 4 set bonus that asks a spec that typically has poor mobility, to move around? The scaling issues which seem to pop up every expansion now.

    I'm trying to figure out why you're so hung up on the Level 45 talents. The Liquid Magma talent, by itself, has shown me the utility of Totemic Projection; especially on fights like Operator or Beastmaster, where I can move it to hit the largest number of targets. The Level 30 talents are more garbage. I haven't touched any of them since we were working on Ko'ragh and I was trying to help with raid mobility.

    ---
    Managed to kill H-Blackhand within about 6 attempts last night. It was a really good feeling! We then went back into Highmaul to work on some achievements and get a few people their AotC for Imperator. I was able to finish the night by getting the last shards I needed for Val'anyr; so I should be able to get the mace tonight(!). All in all, a great night.

    I think he was talking about Elemental? I don't know anything about shaman though

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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    One night a week doesn't leave you with much wiggle room, but in that case you'd have probably been better served to just ignore Blackhand for a couple of weeks and at least get down H&F, Darmac, and Oregorger to get some Heroic upgrades.

    This is actually part of the reason for the staggered item levels in Hellfire. If BRF had the same thing you could have just ignored Blackhand, worked on Heroic and then come back to him later on when you were running up against Heroic Maidens and Furnace and his increase ilevel gear over the start of Heroic would still be quite useful.

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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Well we're 10/10H now, so it's not really a big deal. But yeah, I would have preferred to start Heroic early personally.

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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    We difficulty jumped as soon as possible and while we've killed Blackhand on Normal and Heroic we haven't killed him much at all, most of our kills of him have been on voluntary off nights.

    I still need a Micro-Crucible from him and I've never even seen it drop on Normal or Heroic and never bonus rolled one or had one show up in a follower mission cache. :(

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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    Kai_San wrote: »
    Yo you guys, seriously. Dhal is being a little angry but you all are kind of attacking him like this is the official forums where you ignore reason and just be goosey about it.

    Balance is not perfect. Yes it can be annoying. But guess what? Dhal is right. As stupid as some of the decisions Blizz makes sometimes damage balance is actually remarkably close for how DIFFICULT that is to accomplish.

    1) 20% difference isn't "remarkably close". It's not entirely unreasonable difference, but it isn't close.

    2) Dhalphir's argument, as he himself put it, is "balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be", yet he has provided no evidence to support this absolute and prescient declaration.

    reVerse on
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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Oh they changed the horrible Arcane set bonuses! Thank god.

    2T18 - Arcane Missiles has a 5% chance to create a Time Anomaly, summoning a random hero through time to assist you in battle for 10 sec.
    4T18 - Each of the heroes summoned by Time Anomaly increases the damage you deal by 10% until it departs.

    The 2pc bonus seems to just be proccing from casts of Arcane Missiles and not from hits from individual missiles, which at a 5% chance is not really that great. Hopefully it'll change.

    According to Komma at Altered Time, this means the 4pc set bonus is just a .7% dps gain.

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    SteevLSteevL What can I do for you? Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    SteevL wrote: »
    SteevL wrote: »
    Woo, we finally took down Blackhand! Unfortunately I was dead for most of phase 3. We just barely pulled it off, but it felt good to finally kill him.

    Awesome!

    My guild also took down Heroic Blackhand last night. Took all night and we only got him on the last pull. Something about that last pull... focuses everyone's minds. Phase 2 was butter and I was shocked how many people were up after two smashes in Phase 3. Same last pull magic happened on Blast Furnace and Iron Maidens when those were an issue.

    It does feel great. I really like that fight even if it is possibly too punishing.

    Yeah. I survived the first massive shattering smash, but then got hit with a slag mine. I ran to the left to make sure it dropped away from everyone, but didn't notice my health was pretty low and I died as soon as it detonated. Only about half the raid was alive by the time he died. According to DBM, it was our 31st attempt.

    I guess we might start working on heroic BRF next week as we wait for 6.2.

    What do you mean by "working on" ? How far are you into Heroic already? Because as has been mentioned, even if you're wiping on Normal Blackhand, that means there's quite a bit of Heroic that you could have totally already had cleared, and already had upgrades from to help with Normal Blackhand.

    As a guild, we pretty much stuck with normal BRF. A lot of us are pretty casual (for raiders) and we'd raid two nights a week at the most, with sessions lasting no longer than 2 hours each. There are a few people in the guild who also do heroics independent of us and are geared up a lot better than the rest of us. A lot of us have heroic gear from BRF thanks to garrison caches too, of course.

    We occasionally considered doing heroic BRF every now and then, but we'd just stick with clearing normal.

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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Another benefit to getting Heroic kills in as early as you can is getting Mythic Caches instead of Heroic ones.

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