Fuuuuuuuuuuuck PK light spam. You play some games, have a good time, then run into that PK and you just cannot stand your ground even with 100% attention on defense. By the time you realign your block you have already been hit and the next hit is about to hit you from another direction.
I honestly wonder if its just best to pick a direction and not change my guard in hopes the PK spams into that direction before she kills you.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
+4
Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
So, to continue from my previous complaining, I feel like the Orochi is, at any really decent level of play, just not very good right now especially compared to the other two assassins. Orochi is an amazing noobstomper and at certain levels of play is still pretty decent, but the exact moment you come up against someone who realizes how powerful defense is right now the Orochi has no real way to break through them, at least it seems to me. Deflect is pretty much never useful in a situation where you could parry and is tougher to pull off to boot, but I feel like blocking and parrying is tougher for assassins than other classes. In the "Block speeds" analysis thing for example the orochi switches guards almost as fast as non-assassin classes, but importantly his guard remains "black" a moment before going white. What this means I'm pretty sure is they're not actually blocking in that direction yet, so assassins block slightly slower than they can switch guard positions, but the other two assassins have more ways to peel open someone's defenses or punish attacks, like the Peacekeeper's crazy light attack speed and extremely difficult to block combos and bleeds, and the Berserker's attacks are way less telegraphed than the Orochi's despite being a bit slower and really the Orochi's side attacks aren't much faster. It's only the Orochi's top light which can really compete with the Peacekeeper for speed, and everyone knows it. As for parrying as I mentioned it's almost always the better option than deflecting since you can usually get a free light off of it, but not always and while most players make up for the possibility of still being blocked by guard breaking after a parry, the range for the Orochi's guard break is very short, much shorter than the PK or the Berserker and so when you parry somebody unlike many classes they have the opportunity to recover enough while you close to guard break to counter your attempt with an attack, which most classes don't have time for post parry.
I feel like in the higher levels all of the assassins begin to struggle, but the PK is best with the most ability to trade and punish and play the defensive game, with the Berserker in a worse position but still with some good options especially with their feints and their low telegraphing of light attacks, but the Orochi starts to struggle the most, even at only middle-tiers of skill. Overall I feel that despite the general consensus of many the Orochi is actually one of the weaker classes in the game, at least in terms of real skilled gameplay. In a 1v1 situation against a competent and aware opponent, the Orochi has very few options and is pretty much always at a disadvantage due to their level of damage and health compared to their opponents, almost all of whom can afford to trade far more favorably than the Orochi can if you can even force trades with the Orochi. This gets obscured though because at low skill levels the Orochi is a monster. If you're still not amazing (like I know for sure I'm not) it is possible for a skilled Orochi to do well against you, but honestly they won't do as well as a similarly skilled PK or Berserker, at least in my experience and my opinion based on that.
So I think the Orochi has a strong kit for punishing people at lower skill levels, but once you have block and parry times down, and have learned not to make a lot of mistakes, their usefulness begins to drop like a rock.
What do you guys think, is my general assessment off or would you agree that the Orochi is in an awkward place here where they have strong low level play but fall off rapidly the more skilled both players in a fight become?
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
+1
fRAWRstThe Seas CallThe Mad AnswerRegistered Userregular
edited March 2017
Hey so ive got an early draft of my LB walkthrough. Gonna post a link here for the google doc and put it all in spoilers
Foreword: I almost always play 1v1, with some 2v2, dominion and elimination thrown in. This guide is mostly focused on 1v1 aspects of his gameplan, as well as some general tools and matchup specifics.
First things first, LB is considered to be on the lower spectrum of characters in the current meta of For Honor. He doesn’t have the tried and true mixups of Warden, nor the perfect defense of Warlord or Conqueror, nor the “please nerf” high left right block chains of PK or Orochi. He is however, fun as hell and his fundamentals are very solid. He relies a lot on parries and feint baits, as well as large matchup knowledge. So lets go over his basics first with pros and cons
Pros
-High health lets you force mistakes by eating hits and coming out positive on trades. Abuse this and youll see low health assassins freeze after their top lights hit you for half the damage you hit them for.
- Shove is the best stamina attack in game. You will use this to gain stamina positive scenarios, and then force them to do unsafe parries and watch them drain completely on feints. LB’s mixups on a low to 0 stamina opponent are where he is most dangerous and explosive.
- parry options. LB has 3 specific parry only moves, as well as the standard GB/down GB mixup. He is a monster when you start parrying lights which allows him to start baiting out feints from the enemy. Punish their feints, lower their stamina, and murder them with justice.
- controlling movement. Anyone who plays a lot of fighting games knows space control is the key to winning in high level play. This is commonly called footsies, and LB controls a huge portion of the match with his shove, forward dash, top light, and command throw. Do not let your opponent relax and walk around freely, intimidate them and make them go where you want
Cons
-LB doesn’t have a vortex. He relies on a lot of mind games and feints, knowing your opponent is scared. For new players this will seem unfair, why does Warden get his 33/33/33 for free, while LB has to work so hard? It’s because justice cannot be forced, friend.
- Guard changing. This is probably the biggest con you will notice. LB has the SLOWEST guard change in the game, i.e. the ability to switch from different sides and top blocking. Being rushed down in a flurry of lights is extremely frustrating and demoralizing. You really don’t want to try to block these, but we’ll get into that later.
- Reliance on parries, and the defensive game. Most of LB’s options come from letting your opponent do something first. As you get to higher and higher skill levels, players get more patient, more aware, and more unpredictable. The LB mirror is a waiting game; stare down like a Spaghetti western. LB’s get explosive when they punish an aggressive opponent, but not before.
-Stamina self drain. LB does amazing stamina damage to his enemy.. but he also uses a lot of his stamina on his standard gameplan. Knowing when to back off to regain to 50% stamina vs when you put pressure on can only be learned by playing, and playing a lot.
With that out of the way, lets start on a rundown of his key tools and their uses.
The Shove – LB’s signature. After blocking any move, hit GB to chain your block animation into a shove. Shove does a lot of stamina damage and pushes the enemy quite a distance. You will use shove all the time to back enemies into corners, start mixups, and gain positive stamina scenarios to start LB’s feint and parry game. Shove also counts as the first hit of any chain, meaning LB can Shove -> heavy heavy for unblockables, Shove -> heavy light for mixups, and Shove -> light heavy for quick pokes. Add in feint games and you will soon see how powerful shove is overall.
Shove does not track, but it is invincible to throws and is very fast. You should never really let an opponent get free chains on you. Block first hit of a chain and then immediately cancel the block into shove. You will interrupt their chain, get huge stamina damage, and begin your own shove chains. Abuse this against chain happy players.
Shove can also be used anytime (not only after a block) by dodging forward, or to any side and hitting GB. You can’t back dash into shove, but the shove when done this way has super armor (you will not be interrupted). Use the super armor to get in and force your opponent to panic. Adding feint and parry mixups by cancelling shove into a heavy on top of having super armor shove gives LB explosive potential when used properly.
Other players can sidestep shove, but then you can begin doing raw GB to punish those sidesteps. Since LB’s GB range is so huge, this can turn a blocked chain into a shove slaughter.
Lights – LB’s side lights are not great. They are slow and do not have the horizontal range you would want. They do however reach quite far, allowing his whiff punish game to remain strong and safe. Top light is THE poke. It is righteous. It comes out extremely fast, has deceptively good tracking, is your go to light poke. Use it to check assassins, punish poor whiffs, blow through GB attempts with its GB invincibility and more. It’s a righteous knock to the noggin’. It has short range, but one of LB’s key focus is knowing top light ranges, as you’ll be using it a lot. It also starts one his most used chains, light heavy heavy.
Heavy – LB has decent heavies; side heavy is a solid strike that has good range, speed, and tracking. It’s guaranteed after a GB confirm. Top heavy is long range but very easy to sidestep and parry. Feinting your heavies is key to LB’s game. LB’s heavies have 2 unique properties. Any top heavy will stun the opponent, meaning they can’t see your attack zone (top or left or right) and will deal a lot of stamina damage. Heavies also chain into shoves on hit by hitting the GB button. Landing a GB, side heavy, shove does solid damage, good stamina damage, and pushes your opponent where you want (cliff, fire, spikes). Heavy light heavy is not a great chain, but if you land a top heavy at any point, the chain mixup is pretty difficult to block properly.
GB – LB’s is this games grappler. He has tremendous throw range, and can toss enemies quite a distance. Since he is guaranteed a side heavy after any GB, this basic mixup of GB, side heavy, shove, GB, side heavy, shove, top light, GB, side heavy, shove, heavy heavy unblockable, GB side heavy heavy feint etc etc. Good players will tech your GB, but then you can begin doing down GB. Landing a GB and doing the followup throw is generally not great, unless you can ensure they hit a wall. After a wall splat you can get a top heavy if you were already in top stance. Unfortunately, LB’s stance change is slow that if you weren’t already in top stance before the GB, the other player will recover in time to block the top heavy. If you manage to land a GB on an exhausted enemy, do the GB followup to throw them to the ground/knockdown. You may need to dash forward depending on distance, and then go into a light, heavy –xx chain. The light and heavy should be guaranteed, and you should make sure its top heavy to keep their stamina low and to get that stun. The final part of chain (light or heavy unblockable) will not show your stance, and you can do righteous mixups to a stunned enemy. The exhausted GB game has gotten me more hatemail than any Abel Marseilles mixups ever has. I even play Urien in 3s.
Down GB aka command throw aka Long Arm of the Law – This is a unique command throw that has GB lift the other player over LB’s head behind him flat on their ass. It does a lot of stamina damage on hit, guarantees a side/top light, and can throw players off cliffs behind you. It must be used sparingly, it has okay range, barely any tracking, and good players can spot its animation and punish heavily. Use this as a surprise, not as a key tool.
Impaling charge/Running unlocked heavy, aka let me take you for a ride – This is a pretty bad move. It hits on the left, and if it’s parried or blocked LB loses a shitton of stamina and will take a huge punishment. In 1v1 it can rarely if never used. If you land it, it will carry the other player far. Off ledges is the best, but pushing them into a wall gets you a free top heavy (stuns) -> Light -> Heavy (+ Light) = 3 - 3 1/2 bars of Damage. which can go into shoves as above. In 2v2 and bigger matches, you can use this to chase down runners (it has great tracking and goes far fast) and to surprise another player who is focused on a 1v1 (honor is for plebs).
Parries – LB has quite a few options after parries, although not all are guaranteed. They are light, heavy unlockable, or running R2. Depending if you parried a light or heavy, you will have different options. You are always guaranteed a light attack after you parry any attack, which is fine if a bit underwhelming.
Parrying a heavy – this will happen most often. Heavies are slow and easy to parry once you learn timings. You can only guarantee a light followup. You can mixup GB instead and get a decent rhythm going.
Parrying a light – This gives you the most frame advantage and most options. You can do top light, GB, or do forward heavy. AD MORTEM, INIMICIS. This top heavy is unblockable, does huge damage (2 bars) and is what makes LB parry game so strong. Parrying lights takes a lot of practice, but mastering it allows LB’s most damaging normal. You can also do Running unblocked R2 after a parry by hitting side and heavy. I am not 100% sure if this is guaranteed after a light parry, but it gives you the same options as a running heavy. Wall splat for guarantees, or throwing them off ledges.
Good to note that anytime you parry, you deal massive stamina damage to the opponent. Use this to begin shoving and the exhausted GB game, which will severely punish ill prepared players.
Parry Feint Mindgames
This is applicable to all characters but LB has the most parry options. Parry mindgames are very strong, and rely a lot on smart stamina usage and management. The basic game is you wanting to parry an opponents heavies. They catch on, and begin feinting their heavies. Your parry turns into a regular heavy, which allows them to parry your parry attempt and punish. This mindgame (am I going to feint, or do a actual heavy) comes into play the higher skill levels you go. Using shoves to lower your opponents stamina and get them in a disadvantageous feint/parry scenario allows you to control the flow of the mindgame. Adding in the down GB command throw, and top light allows a lot of potential to this mindgame.
One final note: there is a known bug with unlocking during chains. LB can abuse this with his light, heavy heavy chain, which has the last heavy unblockable. By unlocking the camera during the last heavy, that heavy will no longer be parryable. This means it is an unblockable, unparryable, wide range/far reaching move. I find using this to be an exploit, and don’t use it myself. Ubisoft says a patch to fix this for Shugs is in the works, and I can’t imagine it wont be fixed for LB. Are you honorable?
I really wish Duel and Brawl gave more xp. I am sick of teams in Dominion playing tdm and not the objectives.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
Man, I'm not sure if I'm ever going to recover my duel W/L ratio. I pretty much tanked it learning Valkyrie and Warlord, and I do exceptionally well in all the team modes as any of my mains (Valkyrie, Berserker, Warlord) and now it feels like I only get matched up against some of the best players out there. I suppose it's a good thing because I'm fighting insanely good players with my skill parameter still at strict, so I guess that must mean I'm pretty good. Every now and then I come up against someone good but not excellent and I demolish them, and even less frequently I find someone that seems to be around the exact same skill level as my self and we trade games for a few. More often than not I am fighting people that practically never make a mistake and play uber defensive, and god forbid they are a Warden, PK, Conqueror, or Warlord because then I am just totally hosed. I guess I just need to get better, but damn if it isn't demoralizing to lose so many games.
Did some testing on exhaustion recovery, and the roughly one second difference in having that maxed over revenge duration is definitely not worth.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
Saw a thread on reddit describing the issue I've been having vs new valk, even bots. If you get hit by the first light the in chain and she changes the direction, LB and others cannot adjust their block in time and the hit is essentially free. Thought it was just me but apparently not.
@fRAWRst
After exhausted throw knockdown light xx heavy chain is guaranteed? You sure?
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
Fuuuuuuuuuuuck PK light spam. You play some games, have a good time, then run into that PK and you just cannot stand your ground even with 100% attention on defense. By the time you realign your block you have already been hit and the next hit is about to hit you from another direction.
I honestly wonder if its just best to pick a direction and not change my guard in hopes the PK spams into that direction before she kills you.
Those guard changes penalties shouldn't be in the game and just make it impossible for certain classes to possibly recover from some bullshit.
LB, like rest of the cast can change guard initially in 8 frames at 60fps. But if you try to change a second time as LB, it takes you 12 frames for the second change (PK still changes at 8). A third? LB needs 18 frames to change for #3 while PK is still sitting pretty at 8.
It's unfair in a vaccuum and absolutely crippling with the false indicator bullshit that is becoming more rampant (which IMO is a major threat to this game's longevity that needs to be nipped in the bud asap).
Conq was locked into his charged heavy attack. 36 frames later the attack connects. 4 frames into the attack the direction of the attack changes on the UI. Oh, surely I'm just not fast enough to respond. I don't have the best reflexes (~230-240 ms response time, which is still on the faster side of the bell curve). But let's walk through this timeline presuming that someone with crazy world record tier 100ms response time is responding.
at 60 fps.
frame 0: Attack begins with right direction indicator
frame 4: Attack changes direction to left
Frame 6: Our superman responds to the stimulus of the first attack and sends input to block right
Frame 10: Response to stimulus of changing direction, sends input to block left
Frame 14: The initial action of blocking right is completed.
Frame 26: The action of blocking left completes
Frame 32: Impact
So by ignoring any sort of tomfoolery from netcode messing up the timeline, our perfectly playing world record holder can succeed in the defense of the attack with wiggle room of a mere six frames.
Saw a thread on reddit describing the issue I've been having vs new valk, even bots. If you get hit by the first light the in chain and she changes the direction, LB and others cannot adjust their block in time and the hit is essentially free. Thought it was just me but apparently not.
@ fRAWRst
After exhausted throw knockdown light xx heavy chain is guaranteed? You sure?
Honestly considering how little actual combo's go on in this game I'm kinda okay with Valk getting a second hit off guaranteed (especially because the 3rd hit is where the interesting choice between stun/damage comes in).
Though the fact it only exists as a thing for certain classes is silly.
@Svevin totally. You'll find me at AvalonTwo on uPlay. We've done a couple of PA tourneys so far and @CorriganX is trying to helm another one this Saturday, so there are definitely people around
0
KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
I think if there isn't one by the time I get off work this afternoon, I'll set up a google doc so people can put their forum name and uplay/gamertag so we can add people more easily.
Also, the connection issues aren't just limited to consoles. My couple hours playing last night was pretty janky with people teleporting and displacing oddly.
Everything: Konphujun(#1458)
0
fRAWRstThe Seas CallThe Mad AnswerRegistered Userregular
Saw a thread on reddit describing the issue I've been having vs new valk, even bots. If you get hit by the first light the in chain and she changes the direction, LB and others cannot adjust their block in time and the hit is essentially free. Thought it was just me but apparently not.
@fRAWRst
After exhausted throw knockdown light xx heavy chain is guaranteed? You sure?
99% sure, the light is quick and hits them early, and then the second top heavy is guaranteed as they are getting up
Fuuuuuuuuuuuck PK light spam. You play some games, have a good time, then run into that PK and you just cannot stand your ground even with 100% attention on defense. By the time you realign your block you have already been hit and the next hit is about to hit you from another direction.
I honestly wonder if its just best to pick a direction and not change my guard in hopes the PK spams into that direction before she kills you.
Those guard changes penalties shouldn't be in the game and just make it impossible for certain classes to possibly recover from some bullshit.
LB, like rest of the cast can change guard initially in 8 frames at 60fps. But if you try to change a second time as LB, it takes you 12 frames for the second change (PK still changes at 8). A third? LB needs 18 frames to change for #3 while PK is still sitting pretty at 8.
It's unfair in a vaccuum and absolutely crippling with the false indicator bullshit that is becoming more rampant (which IMO is a major threat to this game's longevity that needs to be nipped in the bud asap).
Conq was locked into his charged heavy attack. 36 frames later the attack connects. 4 frames into the attack the direction of the attack changes on the UI. Oh, surely I'm just not fast enough to respond. I don't have the best reflexes (~230-240 ms response time, which is still on the faster side of the bell curve). But let's walk through this timeline presuming that someone with crazy world record tier 100ms response time is responding.
at 60 fps.
frame 0: Attack begins with right direction indicator
frame 4: Attack changes direction to left
Frame 6: Our superman responds to the stimulus of the first attack and sends input to block right
Frame 10: Response to stimulus of changing direction, sends input to block left
Frame 14: The initial action of blocking right is completed.
Frame 26: The action of blocking left completes
Frame 32: Impact
So by ignoring any sort of tomfoolery from netcode messing up the timeline, our perfectly playing world record holder can succeed in the defense of the attack with wiggle room of a mere six frames.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
0
ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Saw a thread on reddit describing the issue I've been having vs new valk, even bots. If you get hit by the first light the in chain and she changes the direction, LB and others cannot adjust their block in time and the hit is essentially free. Thought it was just me but apparently not.
@ fRAWRst
After exhausted throw knockdown light xx heavy chain is guaranteed? You sure?
Honestly considering how little actual combo's go on in this game I'm kinda okay with Valk getting a second hit off guaranteed (especially because the 3rd hit is where the interesting choice between stun/damage comes in).
Though the fact it only exists as a thing for certain classes is silly.
Isn't Valk getting a second light off for guaranteed basically the exact same thing as the PK getting a second guaranteed light?
Saw a thread on reddit describing the issue I've been having vs new valk, even bots. If you get hit by the first light the in chain and she changes the direction, LB and others cannot adjust their block in time and the hit is essentially free. Thought it was just me but apparently not.
@ fRAWRst
After exhausted throw knockdown light xx heavy chain is guaranteed? You sure?
Honestly considering how little actual combo's go on in this game I'm kinda okay with Valk getting a second hit off guaranteed (especially because the 3rd hit is where the interesting choice between stun/damage comes in).
Though the fact it only exists as a thing for certain classes is silly.
Isn't Valk getting a second light off for guaranteed basically the exact same thing as the PK getting a second guaranteed light?
FWIW I'm okay with neither of those things. Consistency should be the baseline for all characters. Especially in something as fundamental as blocking. Either no one gets a light into X combo free, or everyone does.
I mean if you wanna give my LB a guaranteed light into whatever combo i'm down for the latter.
Currently the rule is on chains is that you are supposed to be able to block or even parry the succeeding hits on a chain combo, even if you get hit by the 1st attack, except vs X classes. This should not be the case.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
And if it is a double hit, it should be something like the warden/orochi double taps instead of a chain that's so rapid that it breaks the deflect mechanics.
3DS Friend Code:
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
+1
Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
edited March 2017
Nothing I've made in the Emblem editor looks as good as Obifett's stuff I have tried made a couple I like
Lord_Asmodeus on
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
Saw a thread on reddit describing the issue I've been having vs new valk, even bots. If you get hit by the first light the in chain and she changes the direction, LB and others cannot adjust their block in time and the hit is essentially free. Thought it was just me but apparently not.
@ fRAWRst
After exhausted throw knockdown light xx heavy chain is guaranteed? You sure?
Honestly considering how little actual combo's go on in this game I'm kinda okay with Valk getting a second hit off guaranteed (especially because the 3rd hit is where the interesting choice between stun/damage comes in).
Though the fact it only exists as a thing for certain classes is silly.
Isn't Valk getting a second light off for guaranteed basically the exact same thing as the PK getting a second guaranteed light?
FWIW I'm okay with neither of those things. Consistency should be the baseline for all characters. Especially in something as fundamental as blocking. Either no one gets a light into X combo free, or everyone does.
I mean if you wanna give my LB a guaranteed light into whatever combo i'm down for the latter.
Currently the rule is on chains is that you are supposed to be able to block or even parry the succeeding hits on a chain combo, even if you get hit by the 1st attack, except vs X classes. This should not be the case.
...unless it is explicitly stated as a character perk. Transparency about the mechanics from Ubisoft would be super important right now, considering the messed up cancels and such.
+1
fRAWRstThe Seas CallThe Mad AnswerRegistered Userregular
Saw a thread on reddit describing the issue I've been having vs new valk, even bots. If you get hit by the first light the in chain and she changes the direction, LB and others cannot adjust their block in time and the hit is essentially free. Thought it was just me but apparently not.
@ fRAWRst
After exhausted throw knockdown light xx heavy chain is guaranteed? You sure?
Honestly considering how little actual combo's go on in this game I'm kinda okay with Valk getting a second hit off guaranteed (especially because the 3rd hit is where the interesting choice between stun/damage comes in).
Though the fact it only exists as a thing for certain classes is silly.
Isn't Valk getting a second light off for guaranteed basically the exact same thing as the PK getting a second guaranteed light?
FWIW I'm okay with neither of those things. Consistency should be the baseline for all characters. Especially in something as fundamental as blocking. Either no one gets a light into X combo free, or everyone does.
I mean if you wanna give my LB a guaranteed light into whatever combo i'm down for the latter.
Currently the rule is on chains is that you are supposed to be able to block or even parry the succeeding hits on a chain combo, even if you get hit by the 1st attack, except vs X classes. This should not be the case.
...unless it is explicitly stated as a character perk. Transparency about the mechanics from Ubisoft would be super important right now, considering the messed up cancels and such.
That too, I would be okay with it being a known variable for that class. Which from my time in training mode with both characters, this is a not a listed property of their moveset.
if it's intended, fine, just as you said, be transparent about it.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
0
Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
I haven't won a duel in weeks and it's really getting to me. I'm doing a lot better since I stopped letting the search go for "all skill levels" and stopped playing Orochi in favor of the Valkyrie more, but I still go down 2/3. It's most frustrating when one of my losses is an environmental kill that wasn't even on purpose, just because I got heavied near an edge on a bridge or something.
Unless I'm playing people I know I think I'm going to take an extended break from duels because they're really getting to me.
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
The trick to winning most duels is to take the War Games strategy.
The winning move is not to attack.
Unless you're Warlord and have a spammable and hard to punish way to confirm damage.
3DS Friend Code:
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
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gaming_librarianTurn your face to the sun...Registered Userregular
I need some help. How do I beat a shugoki, specifically as a conqueror. I'm not the worst at this game, but I'm definitely not a twitchy-spazzy feinting whirlwind either, on any class. While I've fought shugoki in 4v4 modes and even one or two brawls, I've only run into a shugoki a handful of times in duels, and I'll be honest...I can't beat them. I don't "understand" them I guess. I got pantsed by a guy last night who was like, level 2 (no rep), so I guess hadn't exactly beenplaying the class a long time. I lost every round in every match, 6 matches before I gave up. I could barely hit him. I couldn't seem to dodge his charges, as I kept getting sucked into them, even though I was clearly to the left or right of him, and he kept hitting me with unblockables that I just couldn't parry. What's the secret?
Break his hyper armor with guard breaks. Even if he techs it, the shield still pops.
If those unblockables were eating up 90% of your health, then he was exploiting the glitch that lets him throw out an unblockable/unparriable/undeflectable heavy attack with a bonus phantom hit during the windup.
General_Armchair on
3DS Friend Code:
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
I can't beat Shugoki either.
I feel like I have a reasonable chance to beat almost every other class. But Shugoki just laughs at my attacks as he trades massive damage into my puny damage.
I need some help. How do I beat a shugoki, specifically as a conqueror. I'm not the worst at this game, but I'm definitely not a twitchy-spazzy feinting whirlwind either, on any class. While I've fought shugoki in 4v4 modes and even one or two brawls, I've only run into a shugoki a handful of times in duels, and I'll be honest...I can't beat them. I don't "understand" them I guess. I got pantsed by a guy last night who was like, level 2 (no rep), so I guess hadn't exactly beenplaying the class a long time. I lost every round in every match, 6 matches before I gave up. I could barely hit him. I couldn't seem to dodge his charges, as I kept getting sucked into them, even though I was clearly to the left or right of him, and he kept hitting me with unblockables that I just couldn't parry. What's the secret?
Dodge charge by locking on and dodging to the left or right, the timing is strict as you can't do it too early or too late.
On the unblockables, part of the difficulty is probably the protracted windup. One general tip for parries is to watch the indicator, and hit the parry button when the red arrow FLASHES. Not before or after. His windup takes so long that it is very easy to parry early and eat a full UB for your troubles.
Don't try to openly attack when he has armor up, he can simply heavy or light attack back at you and tank your hit with armor. As conker, any time you block a heavy there should be enough recoil on his end that you get a free unbreakable GB. Then sideheavy after GB etc.
After his armor is consumed by one attack or a GB, he has to not take damage for it to come back again, you can sort of bully him during this time. As conker, also getting to shield bash him into walls and starting your heavy into bash vortex is effective as long as you have stamina.
Edit: Oh yeah, he does have the exploit. If you think it's the exploit heavies that you can't parry, yeah that's BS and all you can do is avoid.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
I need some help. How do I beat a shugoki, specifically as a conqueror. I'm not the worst at this game, but I'm definitely not a twitchy-spazzy feinting whirlwind either, on any class. While I've fought shugoki in 4v4 modes and even one or two brawls, I've only run into a shugoki a handful of times in duels, and I'll be honest...I can't beat them. I don't "understand" them I guess. I got pantsed by a guy last night who was like, level 2 (no rep), so I guess hadn't exactly beenplaying the class a long time. I lost every round in every match, 6 matches before I gave up. I could barely hit him. I couldn't seem to dodge his charges, as I kept getting sucked into them, even though I was clearly to the left or right of him, and he kept hitting me with unblockables that I just couldn't parry. What's the secret?
Well the unblockable that can't be parried is an exploit. The backbreaker behaves strangely, you have to actually be dodging when he comes at you as though it were an attack, or be well away from him when it goes through the animation. If you dodge too soon and are flat footed and he comes by you, he'll probably grab you.
Against shugoki, use a guard break to burn his hyper armor and then just play like you normally would, he can't trade hits again until it's up.
Honestly as this game moves forward holes are being punched in the mechanics that break it in so many ways I wouldn't be bothered to take it seriously right now. Depending on what Ubi does about it, the game may be dead in a few weeks or last quite a while. Ubi being Ubi, I'm leaning towards dead sooner than later... but it's Ubi Montreal, which actually has a good showing with R6 Siege.
Edit: Valk can now do some strange thing where on exhaust knockdown she can bounce you off the ground as you're falling and complete a combo into sweep, and then hit you with an additional heavy and light and there's nothing you can do about it as some classes. Best part is it puts you right back in the blender.
Edit: Valk can now do some strange thing where on exhaust knockdown she can bounce you off the ground as you're falling and complete a combo into sweep, and then hit you with an additional heavy and light and there's nothing you can do about it as some classes. Best part is it puts you right back in the blender.
I want to say that exhaust combo on walk is known even pre-patch.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
Posts
A good half of my deaths are to zone canceling people spamming Good Fight! in chat like they won something
I haven't played since the console patch, but my bro-in-law has been experiencing similar issues Xbox One.
XBL: InvaderJims
Bnet: Pudgestomp#11153
手芸鬼 shugeki handcraft orge.
I honestly wonder if its just best to pick a direction and not change my guard in hopes the PK spams into that direction before she kills you.
I feel like in the higher levels all of the assassins begin to struggle, but the PK is best with the most ability to trade and punish and play the defensive game, with the Berserker in a worse position but still with some good options especially with their feints and their low telegraphing of light attacks, but the Orochi starts to struggle the most, even at only middle-tiers of skill. Overall I feel that despite the general consensus of many the Orochi is actually one of the weaker classes in the game, at least in terms of real skilled gameplay. In a 1v1 situation against a competent and aware opponent, the Orochi has very few options and is pretty much always at a disadvantage due to their level of damage and health compared to their opponents, almost all of whom can afford to trade far more favorably than the Orochi can if you can even force trades with the Orochi. This gets obscured though because at low skill levels the Orochi is a monster. If you're still not amazing (like I know for sure I'm not) it is possible for a skilled Orochi to do well against you, but honestly they won't do as well as a similarly skilled PK or Berserker, at least in my experience and my opinion based on that.
So I think the Orochi has a strong kit for punishing people at lower skill levels, but once you have block and parry times down, and have learned not to make a lot of mistakes, their usefulness begins to drop like a rock.
What do you guys think, is my general assessment off or would you agree that the Orochi is in an awkward place here where they have strong low level play but fall off rapidly the more skilled both players in a fight become?
EDIT: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cPI3FBGGE0UI9J9x6j4Is_OBgKVkJbIKqNxFhnhQ4aA/edit?usp=sharing
Bringing the Law – Intro to LB
Foreword: I almost always play 1v1, with some 2v2, dominion and elimination thrown in. This guide is mostly focused on 1v1 aspects of his gameplan, as well as some general tools and matchup specifics.
First things first, LB is considered to be on the lower spectrum of characters in the current meta of For Honor. He doesn’t have the tried and true mixups of Warden, nor the perfect defense of Warlord or Conqueror, nor the “please nerf” high left right block chains of PK or Orochi. He is however, fun as hell and his fundamentals are very solid. He relies a lot on parries and feint baits, as well as large matchup knowledge. So lets go over his basics first with pros and cons
Pros
-High health lets you force mistakes by eating hits and coming out positive on trades. Abuse this and youll see low health assassins freeze after their top lights hit you for half the damage you hit them for.
- Shove is the best stamina attack in game. You will use this to gain stamina positive scenarios, and then force them to do unsafe parries and watch them drain completely on feints. LB’s mixups on a low to 0 stamina opponent are where he is most dangerous and explosive.
- parry options. LB has 3 specific parry only moves, as well as the standard GB/down GB mixup. He is a monster when you start parrying lights which allows him to start baiting out feints from the enemy. Punish their feints, lower their stamina, and murder them with justice.
- controlling movement. Anyone who plays a lot of fighting games knows space control is the key to winning in high level play. This is commonly called footsies, and LB controls a huge portion of the match with his shove, forward dash, top light, and command throw. Do not let your opponent relax and walk around freely, intimidate them and make them go where you want
Cons
-LB doesn’t have a vortex. He relies on a lot of mind games and feints, knowing your opponent is scared. For new players this will seem unfair, why does Warden get his 33/33/33 for free, while LB has to work so hard? It’s because justice cannot be forced, friend.
- Guard changing. This is probably the biggest con you will notice. LB has the SLOWEST guard change in the game, i.e. the ability to switch from different sides and top blocking. Being rushed down in a flurry of lights is extremely frustrating and demoralizing. You really don’t want to try to block these, but we’ll get into that later.
- Reliance on parries, and the defensive game. Most of LB’s options come from letting your opponent do something first. As you get to higher and higher skill levels, players get more patient, more aware, and more unpredictable. The LB mirror is a waiting game; stare down like a Spaghetti western. LB’s get explosive when they punish an aggressive opponent, but not before.
-Stamina self drain. LB does amazing stamina damage to his enemy.. but he also uses a lot of his stamina on his standard gameplan. Knowing when to back off to regain to 50% stamina vs when you put pressure on can only be learned by playing, and playing a lot.
With that out of the way, lets start on a rundown of his key tools and their uses.
The Shove – LB’s signature. After blocking any move, hit GB to chain your block animation into a shove. Shove does a lot of stamina damage and pushes the enemy quite a distance. You will use shove all the time to back enemies into corners, start mixups, and gain positive stamina scenarios to start LB’s feint and parry game. Shove also counts as the first hit of any chain, meaning LB can Shove -> heavy heavy for unblockables, Shove -> heavy light for mixups, and Shove -> light heavy for quick pokes. Add in feint games and you will soon see how powerful shove is overall.
Shove does not track, but it is invincible to throws and is very fast. You should never really let an opponent get free chains on you. Block first hit of a chain and then immediately cancel the block into shove. You will interrupt their chain, get huge stamina damage, and begin your own shove chains. Abuse this against chain happy players.
Shove can also be used anytime (not only after a block) by dodging forward, or to any side and hitting GB. You can’t back dash into shove, but the shove when done this way has super armor (you will not be interrupted). Use the super armor to get in and force your opponent to panic. Adding feint and parry mixups by cancelling shove into a heavy on top of having super armor shove gives LB explosive potential when used properly.
Other players can sidestep shove, but then you can begin doing raw GB to punish those sidesteps. Since LB’s GB range is so huge, this can turn a blocked chain into a shove slaughter.
Lights – LB’s side lights are not great. They are slow and do not have the horizontal range you would want. They do however reach quite far, allowing his whiff punish game to remain strong and safe. Top light is THE poke. It is righteous. It comes out extremely fast, has deceptively good tracking, is your go to light poke. Use it to check assassins, punish poor whiffs, blow through GB attempts with its GB invincibility and more. It’s a righteous knock to the noggin’. It has short range, but one of LB’s key focus is knowing top light ranges, as you’ll be using it a lot. It also starts one his most used chains, light heavy heavy.
Heavy – LB has decent heavies; side heavy is a solid strike that has good range, speed, and tracking. It’s guaranteed after a GB confirm. Top heavy is long range but very easy to sidestep and parry. Feinting your heavies is key to LB’s game. LB’s heavies have 2 unique properties. Any top heavy will stun the opponent, meaning they can’t see your attack zone (top or left or right) and will deal a lot of stamina damage. Heavies also chain into shoves on hit by hitting the GB button. Landing a GB, side heavy, shove does solid damage, good stamina damage, and pushes your opponent where you want (cliff, fire, spikes). Heavy light heavy is not a great chain, but if you land a top heavy at any point, the chain mixup is pretty difficult to block properly.
GB – LB’s is this games grappler. He has tremendous throw range, and can toss enemies quite a distance. Since he is guaranteed a side heavy after any GB, this basic mixup of GB, side heavy, shove, GB, side heavy, shove, top light, GB, side heavy, shove, heavy heavy unblockable, GB side heavy heavy feint etc etc. Good players will tech your GB, but then you can begin doing down GB. Landing a GB and doing the followup throw is generally not great, unless you can ensure they hit a wall. After a wall splat you can get a top heavy if you were already in top stance. Unfortunately, LB’s stance change is slow that if you weren’t already in top stance before the GB, the other player will recover in time to block the top heavy. If you manage to land a GB on an exhausted enemy, do the GB followup to throw them to the ground/knockdown. You may need to dash forward depending on distance, and then go into a light, heavy –xx chain. The light and heavy should be guaranteed, and you should make sure its top heavy to keep their stamina low and to get that stun. The final part of chain (light or heavy unblockable) will not show your stance, and you can do righteous mixups to a stunned enemy. The exhausted GB game has gotten me more hatemail than any Abel Marseilles mixups ever has. I even play Urien in 3s.
Down GB aka command throw aka Long Arm of the Law – This is a unique command throw that has GB lift the other player over LB’s head behind him flat on their ass. It does a lot of stamina damage on hit, guarantees a side/top light, and can throw players off cliffs behind you. It must be used sparingly, it has okay range, barely any tracking, and good players can spot its animation and punish heavily. Use this as a surprise, not as a key tool.
Impaling charge/Running unlocked heavy, aka let me take you for a ride – This is a pretty bad move. It hits on the left, and if it’s parried or blocked LB loses a shitton of stamina and will take a huge punishment. In 1v1 it can rarely if never used. If you land it, it will carry the other player far. Off ledges is the best, but pushing them into a wall gets you a free top heavy (stuns) -> Light -> Heavy (+ Light) = 3 - 3 1/2 bars of Damage. which can go into shoves as above. In 2v2 and bigger matches, you can use this to chase down runners (it has great tracking and goes far fast) and to surprise another player who is focused on a 1v1 (honor is for plebs).
Parries – LB has quite a few options after parries, although not all are guaranteed. They are light, heavy unlockable, or running R2. Depending if you parried a light or heavy, you will have different options. You are always guaranteed a light attack after you parry any attack, which is fine if a bit underwhelming.
Parrying a heavy – this will happen most often. Heavies are slow and easy to parry once you learn timings. You can only guarantee a light followup. You can mixup GB instead and get a decent rhythm going.
Parrying a light – This gives you the most frame advantage and most options. You can do top light, GB, or do forward heavy. AD MORTEM, INIMICIS. This top heavy is unblockable, does huge damage (2 bars) and is what makes LB parry game so strong. Parrying lights takes a lot of practice, but mastering it allows LB’s most damaging normal. You can also do Running unblocked R2 after a parry by hitting side and heavy. I am not 100% sure if this is guaranteed after a light parry, but it gives you the same options as a running heavy. Wall splat for guarantees, or throwing them off ledges.
Good to note that anytime you parry, you deal massive stamina damage to the opponent. Use this to begin shoving and the exhausted GB game, which will severely punish ill prepared players.
Parry Feint Mindgames
This is applicable to all characters but LB has the most parry options. Parry mindgames are very strong, and rely a lot on smart stamina usage and management. The basic game is you wanting to parry an opponents heavies. They catch on, and begin feinting their heavies. Your parry turns into a regular heavy, which allows them to parry your parry attempt and punish. This mindgame (am I going to feint, or do a actual heavy) comes into play the higher skill levels you go. Using shoves to lower your opponents stamina and get them in a disadvantageous feint/parry scenario allows you to control the flow of the mindgame. Adding in the down GB command throw, and top light allows a lot of potential to this mindgame.
One final note: there is a known bug with unlocking during chains. LB can abuse this with his light, heavy heavy chain, which has the last heavy unblockable. By unlocking the camera during the last heavy, that heavy will no longer be parryable. This means it is an unblockable, unparryable, wide range/far reaching move. I find using this to be an exploit, and don’t use it myself. Ubisoft says a patch to fix this for Shugs is in the works, and I can’t imagine it wont be fixed for LB. Are you honorable?
PC here. Feel free to send a uplay friend request, same username there as here.
Edit: That online emblem editor is pretty neat
@fRAWRst
After exhausted throw knockdown light xx heavy chain is guaranteed? You sure?
You can deflect it but the game just freaks out instead.
https://my.mixtape.moe/dtwrtc.webm
I don't recommend trying to parry it either since similar wonkiness is likely to blow up in your face.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
Those guard changes penalties shouldn't be in the game and just make it impossible for certain classes to possibly recover from some bullshit.
LB, like rest of the cast can change guard initially in 8 frames at 60fps. But if you try to change a second time as LB, it takes you 12 frames for the second change (PK still changes at 8). A third? LB needs 18 frames to change for #3 while PK is still sitting pretty at 8.
It's unfair in a vaccuum and absolutely crippling with the false indicator bullshit that is becoming more rampant (which IMO is a major threat to this game's longevity that needs to be nipped in the bud asap).
https://my.mixtape.moe/uvdzdo.webm
Conq was locked into his charged heavy attack. 36 frames later the attack connects. 4 frames into the attack the direction of the attack changes on the UI. Oh, surely I'm just not fast enough to respond. I don't have the best reflexes (~230-240 ms response time, which is still on the faster side of the bell curve). But let's walk through this timeline presuming that someone with crazy world record tier 100ms response time is responding.
at 60 fps.
frame 0: Attack begins with right direction indicator
frame 4: Attack changes direction to left
Frame 6: Our superman responds to the stimulus of the first attack and sends input to block right
Frame 10: Response to stimulus of changing direction, sends input to block left
Frame 14: The initial action of blocking right is completed.
Frame 26: The action of blocking left completes
Frame 32: Impact
So by ignoring any sort of tomfoolery from netcode messing up the timeline, our perfectly playing world record holder can succeed in the defense of the attack with wiggle room of a mere six frames.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
Honestly considering how little actual combo's go on in this game I'm kinda okay with Valk getting a second hit off guaranteed (especially because the 3rd hit is where the interesting choice between stun/damage comes in).
Though the fact it only exists as a thing for certain classes is silly.
@Svevin totally. You'll find me at AvalonTwo on uPlay. We've done a couple of PA tourneys so far and @CorriganX is trying to helm another one this Saturday, so there are definitely people around
Godspeed, Ironsides.
It fucked up something on consoles, apparently. Lots of people (including me) are suddenly experiencing awful connections and frequent game crashes.
Also, the connection issues aren't just limited to consoles. My couple hours playing last night was pretty janky with people teleporting and displacing oddly.
99% sure, the light is quick and hits them early, and then the second top heavy is guaranteed as they are getting up
Might be this dude.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/5ycs3m/conquerer_heavy_indicator_glitch_no_zone_attack/
Isn't Valk getting a second light off for guaranteed basically the exact same thing as the PK getting a second guaranteed light?
Xbox Live / Steam
FWIW I'm okay with neither of those things. Consistency should be the baseline for all characters. Especially in something as fundamental as blocking. Either no one gets a light into X combo free, or everyone does.
I mean if you wanna give my LB a guaranteed light into whatever combo i'm down for the latter.
Currently the rule is on chains is that you are supposed to be able to block or even parry the succeeding hits on a chain combo, even if you get hit by the 1st attack, except vs X classes. This should not be the case.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
...unless it is explicitly stated as a character perk. Transparency about the mechanics from Ubisoft would be super important right now, considering the messed up cancels and such.
That too, I would be okay with it being a known variable for that class. Which from my time in training mode with both characters, this is a not a listed property of their moveset.
if it's intended, fine, just as you said, be transparent about it.
Unless I'm playing people I know I think I'm going to take an extended break from duels because they're really getting to me.
The winning move is not to attack.
Unless you're Warlord and have a spammable and hard to punish way to confirm damage.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
If those unblockables were eating up 90% of your health, then he was exploiting the glitch that lets him throw out an unblockable/unparriable/undeflectable heavy attack with a bonus phantom hit during the windup.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
I feel like I have a reasonable chance to beat almost every other class. But Shugoki just laughs at my attacks as he trades massive damage into my puny damage.
Xbox Live / Steam
Dodge charge by locking on and dodging to the left or right, the timing is strict as you can't do it too early or too late.
On the unblockables, part of the difficulty is probably the protracted windup. One general tip for parries is to watch the indicator, and hit the parry button when the red arrow FLASHES. Not before or after. His windup takes so long that it is very easy to parry early and eat a full UB for your troubles.
Don't try to openly attack when he has armor up, he can simply heavy or light attack back at you and tank your hit with armor. As conker, any time you block a heavy there should be enough recoil on his end that you get a free unbreakable GB. Then sideheavy after GB etc.
After his armor is consumed by one attack or a GB, he has to not take damage for it to come back again, you can sort of bully him during this time. As conker, also getting to shield bash him into walls and starting your heavy into bash vortex is effective as long as you have stamina.
Edit: Oh yeah, he does have the exploit. If you think it's the exploit heavies that you can't parry, yeah that's BS and all you can do is avoid.
Well the unblockable that can't be parried is an exploit. The backbreaker behaves strangely, you have to actually be dodging when he comes at you as though it were an attack, or be well away from him when it goes through the animation. If you dodge too soon and are flat footed and he comes by you, he'll probably grab you.
Against shugoki, use a guard break to burn his hyper armor and then just play like you normally would, he can't trade hits again until it's up.
Honestly as this game moves forward holes are being punched in the mechanics that break it in so many ways I wouldn't be bothered to take it seriously right now. Depending on what Ubi does about it, the game may be dead in a few weeks or last quite a while. Ubi being Ubi, I'm leaning towards dead sooner than later... but it's Ubi Montreal, which actually has a good showing with R6 Siege.
Edit: Valk can now do some strange thing where on exhaust knockdown she can bounce you off the ground as you're falling and complete a combo into sweep, and then hit you with an additional heavy and light and there's nothing you can do about it as some classes. Best part is it puts you right back in the blender.
I want to say that exhaust combo on walk is known even pre-patch.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/5w0tnp/guaranteed_3_hit_setup_for_valkyri