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The Modern Domestic Terrorism: Death In The Willamette

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Posts

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    This is pedantry that's just ridiculous man, his goal was clearly to inspire other incidents like this. This is the KKK's usual method of intimidation, I mean in america killing black people in a church is a time honored tradition of our racists to make sure to keep the black community in line.

    If the goal is the murder of the group, that's genocide.

    You wanna use the word because it feels good, fine. I'll drop it. Language evolves I suppose.

  • TicaldfjamTicaldfjam Hillsboro, ORRegistered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    I'm as guilty as anyone, but maybe A God Damned Separate Thread if we want to debate what makes terrorism terrorism?

    I think we can all agree this was horrific mass murder and this guy appears to be motivated by being a racist dickbag. We don't know his political leanings, and he might just end up being some unhinged nut like Jared Lee Loughner.

    Fox News is terrible, but let's try not to be terrible ourselves. Nine people are dead and we're arguing about what makes terrorism terrorism.

    Zagdrob, the political leanings , IMHO, although a factor, would not be the trigger. There are D-bags from all political leanings, that have some semblance of self control on hating [insert group/gender/etc here], but would not cross the line of harming innocents.

    This human piece of shit calculated and decided to go murder innocent black people, at a historically black church. This was not a random target by any stretch of the imagination.

  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.
    Sylvia Johnson, a cousin of church shooting victim Pastor Clementa Pinckney says she spoke with one of the survivors "and she said that he had reloaded five different times... and he just said 'I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.'

    This is textbook terrorism.

    Still not seeing a real "goal." Have to go? Go where? I'm seeing no real point to the attack other than the deaths of the victims. I'm seeing no real further goal for after the attack, except perhaps to inspire more. He's not trying to get blacks to stay in their schools or drink from their fountains through fear. He's just killing them.

    If I had to use a loaded term to describe it, genocide seems more applicable. He simply lacks the capacity to carry it out himself.

    I'm just wary of the overuse of the word terrorism.

    Dude says "you have to go" and kills the shit out of people.

    You said it yourself: he's advocating the genocide of black people. That's his fucking goal and he decided to start at a church.

    I can understand the weariness caused by the right's overuse of terrorism to rile up support for their lovely globetrotting Warventures, but this attack is just as much a terrorist act as its predecessors like 16th Street.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    This is pedantry that's just ridiculous man, his goal was clearly to inspire other incidents like this. This is the KKK's usual method of intimidation, I mean in america killing black people in a church is a time honored tradition of our racists to make sure to keep the black community in line.

    If the goal is the murder of the group, that's genocide.

    You wanna use the word because it feels good, fine. I'll drop it. Language evolves I suppose.

    I think you are using genocide in the wrong way, no one in the KKK wanted to kill all the blacks, they wanted to subjugate them again.

    And he clearly didn't want to kill all black people he left some alive, it was an act of intimidation that was again reminiscent of the KKK.

    Preacher on
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  • TicaldfjamTicaldfjam Hillsboro, ORRegistered User regular
    wazilla wrote: »
    He specifically let at least one person live so they would go and spread the story in their community. That is not compatible with the goal of genocide.

    It is compatible with the goal of terrorism.

    I thought that was really super duper clear.

    Some people's cognitive dissonance are truly mindboggling at times, when the facts, presented at the time of the incident reported earlier, were right there in plain sight.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    I'm as guilty as anyone, but maybe A God Damned Separate Thread if we want to debate what makes terrorism terrorism?

    I think we can all agree this was horrific mass murder and this guy appears to be motivated by being a racist dickbag. We don't know his political leanings, and he might just end up being some unhinged nut like Jared Lee Loughner.

    Fox News is terrible, but let's try not to be terrible ourselves. Nine people are dead and we're arguing about what makes terrorism terrorism.

    Yeah, I'd hope I don't have to accept the usage of a very specific term for it to be clear this is an absolutely awful act, and that the racial motivation is absolutely clear.

  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    I'm as guilty as anyone, but maybe A God Damned Separate Thread if we want to debate what makes terrorism terrorism?

    I think we can all agree this was horrific mass murder and this guy appears to be motivated by being a racist dickbag. We don't know his political leanings, and he might just end up being some unhinged nut like Jared Lee Loughner.

    Fox News is terrible, but let's try not to be terrible ourselves. Nine people are dead and we're arguing about what makes terrorism terrorism.

    Dude's got a pro-confederacy [like not just the damn flag, outright mentioning the CSA by name] license plate sub-in for the front bumper and went around with a jacket bearing the flags of White-ruled Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa

    I think we have a pretty good start as to his political leanings Re: Race relations.

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  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    Like seriously I don't mean to be an asshole here, but when you have a dude going around with at least three emblems of white supremacy, unless he's really fucking dedicated to some of the most horrifyingly executed satirical performance art, I think the dude may be just the itsiest bit of a white supremacist.

    Lanz on
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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Yeah, anybody claiming the motivation was anything other than race is profoundly stupid.

    I have no doubt a talking head is doing so as I type this though.

    zagdrobShadowen
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    They are, the claim on the fox news is and get this christianity under attack. I am forever god damn sad at the state of race in america.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • TicaldfjamTicaldfjam Hillsboro, ORRegistered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Like seriously I don't mean to be an asshole here, but when you have a dude going around with at least three emblems of white supremacy, unless he's really fucking dedicated to some of the most horrifyingly executed satirical performance art, I think the dude may be just the itsiest bit of a white supremacist.

    It also didn't help, when the big four corporate owned, media conglomerates, along with the washout of most of America's bad history within education [looking, at you Texas monopoly on text book curriculum in most of this country.], have basically desensitized the populace when it comes to factors you had just presented.

    Its also sad that throwing around: mentally-Ill, to this monster, does injustice to people whom are actually mentally-ill.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    Preacher wrote: »
    They are, the claim on the fox news is and get this christianity under attack. I am forever god damn sad at the state of race in america.

    Admittedly I can understand why. A bunch of people killed at bible study for being black kinda torpedoes the whole "we elected a black guy, racism is clearly over" narrative.

    Edit: in a bloody way no less, that's harder to ignore or hand wave aside than arrest stats.

    mcdermott on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    He intended on terrorizing the black community by killing members of their community in a church. That's fucking terrorism mcdermott. It's not stretching the word to mean something it isn't. He literally terrorized the black community in South Carolina.

    Unless that fear is used to pursue a goal, it is not terrorism.

    If that goal is merely "kill all the blacks," that's genocide.

    Sorry if I'm a bit pedantic on the meaning of the word. I wasted a year and a half of my life and lost friends because people in this country went terrorism-crazy, so it's kind of a thing to me.

    But that's the thing - black Americans have lost years, lost property, lost lives over terrorism aimed at them for generations - some of it blatantly state sponsored. And yet we dare not call it terrorism, even though this group is routinely intimidated into a reduced status via the threat of violence.

    I get why you are reluctant to use the term, considering how it has been abused. But that doesn't mean that it's inappropriate to call this an act of terrorism, because it very much was.

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  • TicaldfjamTicaldfjam Hillsboro, ORRegistered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    They are, the claim on the fox news is and get this christianity under attack. I am forever god damn sad at the state of race in america.

    All hale Roger Ailes and his allies.

    I'm sure Hannity will make some claim that, see this is what Obummer has caused directly, or some shit his punchable face usually spews.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    They are, the claim on the fox news is and get this christianity under attack. I am forever god damn sad at the state of race in america.

    Admittedly I can understand why. A bunch of people killed at bible study for being black kinda torpedoes the whole "we elected a black guy, racism is clearly over" narrative.

    It's a twofer, they get to ignore the clear racism aspect, and then trumpet the made up christian persecution angle. Its disgusting in its efficiency to ply to their personal narrative.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Obama speech at this moment seems to be summarized as such: "We have a serious fucking problem, no one in this town really wants to do something about it and I'm fucking exhausted with trying to politely pointing this out and having the problem ignored in favor of hte status quo that keeps producing it."

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    He intended on terrorizing the black community by killing members of their community in a church. That's fucking terrorism mcdermott. It's not stretching the word to mean something it isn't. He literally terrorized the black community in South Carolina.

    Unless that fear is used to pursue a goal, it is not terrorism.

    If that goal is merely "kill all the blacks," that's genocide.

    Sorry if I'm a bit pedantic on the meaning of the word. I wasted a year and a half of my life and lost friends because people in this country went terrorism-crazy, so it's kind of a thing to me.

    But that's the thing - black Americans have lost years, lost property, lost lives over terrorism aimed at them for generations - some of it blatantly state sponsored. And yet we dare not call it terrorism, even though this group is routinely intimidated into a reduced status via the threat of violence.

    I get why you are reluctant to use the term, considering how it has been abused. But that doesn't mean that it's inappropriate to call this an act of terrorism, because it very much was.

    To be clear, there are many past acts I'd easily apply the term to.

    I'm happy to drop it there though, so we can move on.

  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    They are, the claim on the fox news is and get this christianity under attack. I am forever god damn sad at the state of race in america.

    Admittedly I can understand why. A bunch of people killed at bible study for being black kinda torpedoes the whole "we elected a black guy, racism is clearly over" narrative.

    It's a twofer, they get to ignore the clear racism aspect, and then trumpet the made up christian persecution angle. Its disgusting in its efficiency to ply to their personal narrative.

    Don't forget the whole 'if only the victims had guns' spin, brought to you courtesy of Colt and Glock.

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  • CogCog Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Obama speech at this moment seems to be summarized as such: "We have a serious fucking problem, no one in this town really wants to do something about it and I'm fucking exhausted with trying to politely pointing this out and having the problem ignored in favor of hte status quo that keeps producing it."

    I wish he'd just say that.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    They are, the claim on the fox news is and get this christianity under attack. I am forever god damn sad at the state of race in america.

    Admittedly I can understand why. A bunch of people killed at bible study for being black kinda torpedoes the whole "we elected a black guy, racism is clearly over" narrative.

    It's a twofer, they get to ignore the clear racism aspect, and then trumpet the made up christian persecution angle. Its disgusting in its efficiency to ply to their personal narrative.

    Don't forget the whole 'if only the victims had guns' spin, brought to you courtesy of Colt and Glock.

    I'm not going to wade in there, outside of my snark to begin this about it being too soon to talk about it. We might be able to have a conversation about race, we'll never have the conversation about guns. Never.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Cog wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Obama speech at this moment seems to be summarized as such: "We have a serious fucking problem, no one in this town really wants to do something about it and I'm fucking exhausted with trying to politely pointing this out and having the problem ignored in favor of hte status quo that keeps producing it."

    I wish he'd just say that.

    light the anger translator bat signal!

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    .I've had to make statements like this too many times. Communities have had to endure tragedies like this too many times.... Now is a time for mourning, for healing, but let's be clear....This doesn't happen in other places with this kind of frequency. It is in our power to do something about it. I say that knowing that the politics in this town preclude this from happening right now.



    President Obama is done giving a shit.

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.
    “I have to do it,” the gunman was quoted as saying. “You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.”

    That seems to fit the definition of a goal, rather clearly.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Great Obama said something now we'll never get something, why did he have to politicize this? Doesn't he know the only way for something to get done is for someone else to politicize it?

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    If those 9 people had been killed with a bomb, it would be easier to sell the terrorism label. It wouldn't actually change a goddamn thing but the word, though.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    It's also worth pointing out that the terrorist did not just target a black church - he targeted the oldest black church in the US, with a long history of fighting slavery and racism.

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    If those 9 people had been killed with a bomb, it would be easier to sell the terrorism label. It wouldn't actually change a goddamn thing but the word, though.

    Method doesn't really matter, it's about who's a terrorist and who's not. And a white dude going to a black church, murdering people, making clear statements about why he's killing those people, leaving some of them to tell others about what he's done will leave some people going "I'm not so sure about this one." Yeah, yeah, OK.

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  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    The shooter went to my high school. I mean, he is 21, and I'm 28, so there was no way we overlapped but I mean

    This is also my favorite city in South Carolina, and the only place I would want to live in that state

    Super terrible. And yet the Confederate Flag still flies over the capitol building, and isn't even at half mast despite a state senator being among the victims.

    Can't wait for the media to label this guy as just another "mentally ill" shooter, when he had an actual criminal record and this seems to be premeditated and completely lucid.

    But no, we don't have race problems or gun problems in America.

    override367
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    It's also worth pointing out that the terrorist did not just target a black church - he targeted the oldest black church in the US, with a long history of fighting slavery and racism.

    And he traveled all the way from Columbia, 2 hours away, just to specifically target it.

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  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    And he was captured, alive, after murdering nine people. A (white) suspect near the scene on the night of was taken into custody without incident.

    Whereas in North Charleston, Walter Scott was killed while unarmed after fleeing a traffic stop

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Elki wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.
    “I have to do it,” the gunman was quoted as saying. “You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.”

    That seems to fit the definition of a goal, rather clearly.

    Depends. It's a goal, sure. But if the specific goal is the death of the group, that's a separate act (genocide). You aren't trying to get them to change their behaviors, policies, etc...you're trying to make them dead (or alternately, for non-racial genocide, to exterminate the culture...that can happen through other means).

    Terrorism is, generally, intended to provoke/coerce action on the part of the terrorized group. Their death (suicide) is not an action they will take. So while arguably the death of the group is a "goal" and thus genocide could be one type of terrorism, it still doesn't seem to make sense.

    Though terrorism could be used to coerce participation in a genocide (of a third group).

    It's mainly a question of what "you have to go" means, and what the intent is for after the attack. If he means blacks need to leave the country, the term may apply. If he means "go" as in die, I'd argue it doesn't.

    It may seem silly to focus so much on the technical aspect of the term, but it's something that's quite personal to me. I hate the overuse of it, and so I think we need to be very careful in how it's applied.

    The pro-confederate and pro-apartheid imagery would support some further political/policy goal, too...if we believe he's thinking that far. Given what weve got I'm still skeptical.

    That's not to deny either the racial motivation or the history of blacks in America. I don't live in a bubble as some geese have suggested.

    OptimusZed wrote: »
    If those 9 people had been killed with a bomb, it would be easier to sell the terrorism label. It wouldn't actually change a goddamn thing but the word, though.

    Of course. Plenty of people think bomb=terrorism, but that makes it no less true. But yes, if a bomb had been used the word would be used more widely, and probably further to the right as well. Though Fox would still call it anti-Christian terrorism.

  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    You've time and again seem to seemed to have ignored all the posts about the survivor's claim. Can you fit that in your genocide theory?

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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.

    It sure sounds like he is terrorizing the black population to get do them do something other than suicide. In this case, "stay in your place or get the fuck out".

    It is terrorism plain and simple. The same kind of terrorism that has been going on for generations to keep African Americans from participating in politics and trying to improve their place in society.

    Jephery on
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  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    we’ll never understand what motivates anyone to enter one of our places of worship and take the life of another.

    Flying over the SC State House:
    RTR2WFA7.jpg?1434615874

    South Carolina State Holidays
    Confederate Memorial Day
    Monday, May 11 (observance)

    Arch on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Here's the thing - it's sort of a reoccurring argument to get technical about violence done to minorities in the US as a way of diminishing the severity of or the justification for said violence - especially in order to argue that terror directed at minorities was anything but. Which is why you're getting so much pushback on your argument over the technical elements of terror.

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Is that picture photoshopped? There are several people in the SE thread who seem in-the-know that the confederate flag hasn't flown over the state house in 15 years

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Worrying about the proper use of the word terrorism is pretty far down the list as far as priorities when discussing mass shootings motivated by racial hatred in this country

    like, I get that mcdermott has a personal reason to get pedantic but maybe this just isn't the time/place to get pedantic about the use of the word

    especially given the historical context of society downplaying and misconstruing violence against blacks

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  • TheBlackWindTheBlackWind Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    I'm as guilty as anyone, but maybe A God Damned Separate Thread if we want to debate what makes terrorism terrorism?

    I think we can all agree this was horrific mass murder and this guy appears to be motivated by being a racist dickbag. We don't know his political leanings, and he might just end up being some unhinged nut like Jared Lee Loughner.

    Fox News is terrible, but let's try not to be terrible ourselves. Nine people are dead and we're arguing about what makes terrorism terrorism.

    Dude's got a pro-confederacy [like not just the damn flag, outright mentioning the CSA by name] license plate sub-in for the front bumper and went around with a jacket bearing the flags of White-ruled Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa

    I think we have a pretty good start as to his political leanings Re: Race relations.

    It drives me INSANE to see LEOs say the suspect had "distinctive license plates" when they were still looking for him, and not "Confederate States of America license plates"

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Of course terrorism is usually instituted by an organization with an agenda such as Al Qaida or ISIS/ISIL or the KKK. Until we find the shooter's manifesto claiming allegiance to some group we can't call it terrorism.

    A person doesn't have to be a member of a terrorist group America is fighting against to commit terrorist acts.

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This discussion has been closed.