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The Modern Domestic Terrorism: Death In The Willamette

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Posts

  • SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Today we will paint a mountain that owes us nothing. Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    Hmm. I was going to post and ask if "terrorism" required action against a state arm or agent, but a quick google shows that the FBI definition requires only an illlegal attempt to influence a civilian population. Saved myself some grief.

    I'm used to hearing it in a state action context.

    SummaryJudgment on
    tERiPJd.jpg
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    Is that picture photoshopped? There are several people in the SE thread who seem in-the-know that the confederate flag hasn't flown over the state house in 15 years

    I think it's flying on the grounds, not necessarily on the building itself

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    I'm as guilty as anyone, but maybe A God Damned Separate Thread if we want to debate what makes terrorism terrorism?

    I think we can all agree this was horrific mass murder and this guy appears to be motivated by being a racist dickbag. We don't know his political leanings, and he might just end up being some unhinged nut like Jared Lee Loughner.

    Fox News is terrible, but let's try not to be terrible ourselves. Nine people are dead and we're arguing about what makes terrorism terrorism.

    Dude's got a pro-confederacy [like not just the damn flag, outright mentioning the CSA by name] license plate sub-in for the front bumper and went around with a jacket bearing the flags of White-ruled Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa

    I think we have a pretty good start as to his political leanings Re: Race relations.

    It drives me INSANE to see LEOs say the suspect had "distinctive license plates" when they were still looking for him, and not "Confederate States of America license plates"

    well I'd bet he's not the only one there with that license plate

    and probably not the best idea to spread specific information that could lead to the public doing something stupid to someone with the same description/plates

    a5ehrenArchCaulk Bite 6
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    I'm as guilty as anyone, but maybe A God Damned Separate Thread if we want to debate what makes terrorism terrorism?

    I think we can all agree this was horrific mass murder and this guy appears to be motivated by being a racist dickbag. We don't know his political leanings, and he might just end up being some unhinged nut like Jared Lee Loughner.

    Fox News is terrible, but let's try not to be terrible ourselves. Nine people are dead and we're arguing about what makes terrorism terrorism.

    Dude's got a pro-confederacy [like not just the damn flag, outright mentioning the CSA by name] license plate sub-in for the front bumper and went around with a jacket bearing the flags of White-ruled Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa

    I think we have a pretty good start as to his political leanings Re: Race relations.

    It drives me INSANE to see LEOs say the suspect had "distinctive license plates" when they were still looking for him, and not "Confederate States of America license plates"

    and like

    The front plate [haven't seen the back plate] isn't even a license number.

    It's just literally a collection of CSA Flags with "CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA" encircling them.

    Seeing if I can find the photo again

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
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  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    LTuVjgY.jpg

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  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    Javen wrote: »
    Is that picture photoshopped? There are several people in the SE thread who seem in-the-know that the confederate flag hasn't flown over the state house in 15 years

    I think it's flying on the grounds, not necessarily on the building itself

    Yeah it's on a statue on the north side of the building apparently

    wazilla on
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  • AbsalonAbsalon Registered User regular
    The first anti-terrorism act was targeting the Klan, no?

  • Edith UpwardsEdith Upwards Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd hesitate to call it terrorism, I don't see any real "goal" to the shooting other than mass murder. Definitely a hate crime though.

    He murdered people in a historic abolitionist congregation a day after the anniversary of a failed slave revolt orchestrated by said congregation. He wore the Rhodesian flag, South Africa's apartheid flag, spoke of defending white women, and let one woman live to tell the story.

    This is classic racist terrorism in the mold of the White League/Klan.

    His goal was to start racial holy war.

    Edith Upwards on
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    Is that picture photoshopped? There are several people in the SE thread who seem in-the-know that the confederate flag hasn't flown over the state house in 15 years

    I think it's flying on the grounds, not necessarily on the building itself

    They used to fly it over the capital itself, under the US and state flags, but moved it to a separate flagpole a while back, from what I understand. One of the current governor's less than shining moments was defending doing so.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
    Arch
  • a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    I'm as guilty as anyone, but maybe A God Damned Separate Thread if we want to debate what makes terrorism terrorism?

    I think we can all agree this was horrific mass murder and this guy appears to be motivated by being a racist dickbag. We don't know his political leanings, and he might just end up being some unhinged nut like Jared Lee Loughner.

    Fox News is terrible, but let's try not to be terrible ourselves. Nine people are dead and we're arguing about what makes terrorism terrorism.

    Dude's got a pro-confederacy [like not just the damn flag, outright mentioning the CSA by name] license plate sub-in for the front bumper and went around with a jacket bearing the flags of White-ruled Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa

    I think we have a pretty good start as to his political leanings Re: Race relations.

    It drives me INSANE to see LEOs say the suspect had "distinctive license plates" when they were still looking for him, and not "Confederate States of America license plates"

    and like

    The front plate [haven't seen the back plate] isn't even a license number.

    It's just literally a collection of CSA Flags with "CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA" encircling them.

    Seeing if I can find the photo again

    A lot of states in the US don't issue front plates, but cars have spots for them because some do. Most people just don't install the holder, but others use it as an opportunity to personalize.

    programjunkie
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    This is where it is now. Still very prominently displayed.

    sc.png

    LxX6eco.jpg
    PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
    Arch
  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    Is that picture photoshopped? There are several people in the SE thread who seem in-the-know that the confederate flag hasn't flown over the state house in 15 years

    It used to be on top of the dome, that's what they mean.

  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Considering the way 'terrorist' is basically the racist pejoritive for an Arab, I am perfectly okay with people being determined to label this as terrorism, because not only is it textbook terrorism, but the way society tries to excuse heinous acts committed by whites, while saying heinous acts committed by minorities are representative of the entirety of that minority is something I have absolutely no tolerance for.

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  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    It may seem silly to focus so much on the technical aspect of the term,

    Especially given that there is no real clear definition of terrorism.
    Terrorism is, generally, intended to provoke/coerce action on the part of the terrorized group.
    It can also be used to bring publicity to your views and goal, as when terrorists attack a random innocent target.

    Edith Upwards
  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    The thing is, like I said, this kid went to my high school. I'm sure he had confederate states of america license plates. So did half the student body

    Now, yeah, this is hella racism, and terrorism, and any other -ism you want to throw at it. But also the bigger problem is that the majority of South Carolinians see nothing wrong with venerating the Confederate States even to this day

    What I'm saying is the license plates alone aren't enough to identify this kid as some murderous racist douchebag.

    But they certainly are indicative of the kind of culture that breeds murderous, racist douchebags.

    LanzLochielzagdrobmcdermottJragghenDisruptedCapitalistMvrckForarKrieghundShadowenSmrtnik
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Arch wrote: »
    The thing is, like I said, this kid went to my high school. I'm sure he had confederate states of america license plates. So did half the student body

    Now, yeah, this is hella racism, and terrorism, and any other -ism you want to throw at it. But also the bigger problem is that the majority of South Carolinians see nothing wrong with venerating the Confederate States even to this day

    What I'm saying is the license plates alone aren't enough to identify this kid as some murderous racist douchebag.

    But they certainly are indicative of the kind of culture that breeds murderous, racist douchebags.

    I'm less bothered by the flag being perceived as emblematic of some deeply proprietary racist culture that exists in South Carolina and nowhere else (because racism is everywhere, guys) as I am that it's still flying high while every other flag is at half staff. It's a blatant insult to the victims of this tragedy.

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    青!
    LanzJragghen
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Arch wrote: »
    The thing is, like I said, this kid went to my high school. I'm sure he had confederate states of america license plates. So did half the student body

    Now, yeah, this is hella racism, and terrorism, and any other -ism you want to throw at it. But also the bigger problem is that the majority of South Carolinians see nothing wrong with venerating the Confederate States even to this day

    What I'm saying is the license plates alone aren't enough to identify this kid as some murderous racist douchebag.

    But they certainly are indicative of the kind of culture that breeds murderous, racist douchebags.

    I'm less bothered by the flag being perceived as emblematic of some deeply proprietary racist culture that exists in South Carolina and nowhere else (because racism is everywhere, guys) as I am that it's still flying high while every other flag is at half staff. It's a blatant insult to the victims of this tragedy.

    Considering the goals of the Confederation, why would it fly at half staff? It makes more sense that it would fly high on this day.

    Edith UpwardsmcdermottshrykeSmrtnik
  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    Arch wrote: »
    The thing is, like I said, this kid went to my high school. I'm sure he had confederate states of america license plates. So did half the student body

    Now, yeah, this is hella racism, and terrorism, and any other -ism you want to throw at it. But also the bigger problem is that the majority of South Carolinians see nothing wrong with venerating the Confederate States even to this day

    What I'm saying is the license plates alone aren't enough to identify this kid as some murderous racist douchebag.

    But they certainly are indicative of the kind of culture that breeds murderous, racist douchebags.

    I'm less bothered by the flag being perceived as emblematic of some deeply proprietary racist culture that exists in South Carolina and nowhere else (because racism is everywhere, guys) as I am that it's still flying high while every other flag is at half staff. It's a blatant insult to the victims of this tragedy.

    While I agree that racism isn't limited to South Carolina (ditto for the Confederate flag), SC does have a peculiar and specific history not only with the Confederacy itself, and the flag specifically.

    And yeah, it's incredibly insulting.

    mcdermottJragghenHacksawShadowen
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    Arch wrote: »
    The thing is, like I said, this kid went to my high school. I'm sure he had confederate states of america license plates. So did half the student body

    Now, yeah, this is hella racism, and terrorism, and any other -ism you want to throw at it. But also the bigger problem is that the majority of South Carolinians see nothing wrong with venerating the Confederate States even to this day

    What I'm saying is the license plates alone aren't enough to identify this kid as some murderous racist douchebag.

    But they certainly are indicative of the kind of culture that breeds murderous, racist douchebags.

    I'm less bothered by the flag being perceived as emblematic of some deeply proprietary racist culture that exists in South Carolina and nowhere else (because racism is everywhere, guys) as I am that it's still flying high while every other flag is at half staff. It's a blatant insult to the victims of this tragedy.

    I'm guessing that since the flag is not actually part of the state building that its operated by someone else, which is why it hasn't been put to half mast yet while the state building flags have been.

    I'm hoping its just a matter of getting the person there who has the ability to lower the flag.

  • TheBlackWindTheBlackWind Registered User regular
    They had CSA plates? The "stars and bars" are relatively common here in Alabama, but CSA seems pretty specific.

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  • LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    Because a state Senator was murdered. And while SC must honor his memory, it is more important that they honor the memory of something that happened 150 years ago.

  • notdroidnotdroid Registered User regular
    Arch wrote: »
    The thing is, like I said, this kid went to my high school. I'm sure he had confederate states of america license plates. So did half the student body

    Now, yeah, this is hella racism, and terrorism, and any other -ism you want to throw at it. But also the bigger problem is that the majority of South Carolinians see nothing wrong with venerating the Confederate States even to this day

    What I'm saying is the license plates alone aren't enough to identify this kid as some murderous racist douchebag.

    But they certainly are indicative of the kind of culture that breeds murderous, racist douchebags.

    I'm less bothered by the flag being perceived as emblematic of some deeply proprietary racist culture that exists in South Carolina and nowhere else (because racism is everywhere, guys) as I am that it's still flying high while every other flag is at half staff. It's a blatant insult to the victims of this tragedy.

    The Confederate flag flying high on a day where black people have been massacred is basically having it stay true to its historical heritage.

    The fact that it's flying at all is the real insult.

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    National Review headline: South Carolina Suspect Caught, and the Politicization Begins

    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Previous National Review Headline: Awaiting the Politicization of Horrorific Murders

    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    God damn they are shameless motherfuckers.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Worrying about the proper use of the word terrorism is pretty far down the list as far as priorities when discussing mass shootings motivated by racial hatred in this country

    like, I get that mcdermott has a personal reason to get pedantic but maybe this just isn't the time/place to get pedantic about the use of the word

    especially given the historical context of society downplaying and misconstruing violence against blacks

    I was ready to drop it, but nobody else did, so....

    Really I think we probably all agree on everything else. And id hope that in making it clear that genocide (and the advocation thereof) would be the alternate term it's obvious I personally am not "downplaying" anything. We agree genocide is a big deal, I'd assume.


    I also disagree with the Vox article, if we haven't confirmed the motivation (their words) we shouldn't throw the term around. I think these things matter.


    All that said, if it's the only way to ensure the seriousness of the act sinks in, and to differentiate between this and a random mass shooting, so be it. I can accept that.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I'm comfortable with calling the guy a genocidal terrorist.

    AngelHedgieMarathonEdith UpwardsshrykeBurtletoy
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited June 2015
    All theories can sound believable when you ignore the inconvenient bits. I care a lot about this thing! *continues to ignore anything that contradicts what I care about a whole lot*

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
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  • MuzzmuzzMuzzmuzz Registered User regular
    Regarding people going on about this guy being taken alive by police because he was white, remember that most mass murderers are white, and a good percentage don't get taken alive, usually by their own choice. Lately though, quite a few of the most visible ones have been taken alive, which is odd.

  • LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    Given his supposed words to the survivor, and his choice of flags for his attire, and his choice of target and day... I'm curious why his motivations might not be confirmed.

    I'll accept that everyone in SC has a CSA flag on the front of their car and flying at full mast over the capital, so maybe those things I just listed have different meanings in SC.

  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    I think the point is that white mass murderers are treated better by police than minority non-violent suspects. The fact that their fate is their choice is the key - they get to make that choice, rather than a black guy having the choice made for him.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Yeah wasn't there another white shooter recently that was allowed to turn himself in to the police? I swear that happened.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Lochiel wrote: »
    Given his supposed words to the survivor, and his choice of flags for his attire, and his choice of target and day... I'm curious why his motivations might not be confirmed.

    Because.

    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Usual suspects are out already decrying that no control would work and how dare we even talk about it, its too soon. It's disgusting how quick they mobilize after another gun tragedy, I guess its all the experience as of late.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • CogCog Registered User regular
    The inevitable and predictable response of the 24h media cycle is nearly as repulsive as the event.

    SyphonBlueEdith UpwardsJragghen
  • TheCanManTheCanMan Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Worrying about the proper use of the word terrorism is pretty far down the list as far as priorities when discussing mass shootings motivated by racial hatred in this country

    like, I get that mcdermott has a personal reason to get pedantic but maybe this just isn't the time/place to get pedantic about the use of the word

    especially given the historical context of society downplaying and misconstruing violence against blacks

    I was ready to drop it, but nobody else did, so....

    Really I think we probably all agree on everything else. And id hope that in making it clear that genocide (and the advocation thereof) would be the alternate term it's obvious I personally am not "downplaying" anything. We agree genocide is a big deal, I'd assume.


    I also disagree with the Vox article, if we haven't confirmed the motivation (their words) we shouldn't throw the term around. I think these things matter.


    All that said, if it's the only way to ensure the seriousness of the act sinks in, and to differentiate between this and a random mass shooting, so be it. I can accept that.

    The last part it probably where I personally think the line is drawn. I'm sympathetic to being worried about overusing the word "terrorism", and in light of how insanely broad stuff like "the war on terror" is used I'm sympathetic to the desire to keep a well defined and limited definition of the word. I don't think incidents like the Aurora movie theater shooting, or the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting, or the Gabby Giffords shooting should be described as acts of terrorism. But when there's a clear demographic target for a mass shooting, as there is in this instance or in instances like the Sikh Temple shooting, those instances are clearly terroristic in nature, as they are explicitly intended to terrorize a specific community of people.

    And trying to describe this attack as genocide doesn't really make any sense. Genocide is an attempt to exterminate a particular demographic. So unless you think this guy actually thought he could exterminate the African American demographic from the country, it just doesn't fit.

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  • MuzzmuzzMuzzmuzz Registered User regular
    I see it more as the crime, rather than the race. Mass murders, no matter their ethnicity or gender tend to end up with conventional suicide, or suicide by cop. It's just that white males make up a vast majority of these cases. I dislike cop brutality against minorities, but in this case, it doesn't really apply.

    I'm more concerned about what causes white men to do this. Because if the authorities are always trying to find the cultural reasons that black people commit crimes (which, honestly, are committed by a good portion of every ethnicity,) surely we can figure out why a narrow section of the population commits a vast majority of mass murders.



    And no, the answer is not mental illness.

    mcdermott
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Elki wrote: »
    All theories can sound believable when you ignore the inconvenient bits. I care a lot about this thing! *continues to ignore anything that contradicts what I care about a whole lot*

    Very true. The part you seem to think I'm ignoring is, Id assume, the leaving a person alive and what he said?

    I'd say his words aren't 100% consistent with the definition of terrorism and that I don't necessarily think he's an entirely rational actor anyway. So again, unclear.

    It's certainly not just that I think terrorism is only when Arabs plant bombs. I've called Peter King a terrorist sympathizer too many times for that.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Worrying about the proper use of the word terrorism is pretty far down the list as far as priorities when discussing mass shootings motivated by racial hatred in this country

    like, I get that mcdermott has a personal reason to get pedantic but maybe this just isn't the time/place to get pedantic about the use of the word

    especially given the historical context of society downplaying and misconstruing violence against blacks

    I was ready to drop it, but nobody else did, so....

    Really I think we probably all agree on everything else. And id hope that in making it clear that genocide (and the advocation thereof) would be the alternate term it's obvious I personally am not "downplaying" anything. We agree genocide is a big deal, I'd assume.


    I also disagree with the Vox article, if we haven't confirmed the motivation (their words) we shouldn't throw the term around. I think these things matter.


    All that said, if it's the only way to ensure the seriousness of the act sinks in, and to differentiate between this and a random mass shooting, so be it. I can accept that.

    The last part it probably where I personally think the line is drawn. I'm sympathetic to being worried about overusing the word "terrorism", and in light of how insanely broad stuff like "the war on terror" is used I'm sympathetic to the desire to keep a well defined and limited definition of the word. I don't think incidents like the Aurora movie theater shooting, or the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting, or the Gabby Giffords shooting should be described as acts of terrorism. But when there's a clear demographic target for a mass shooting, as there is in this instance or in instances like the Sikh Temple shooting, those instances are clearly terroristic in nature, as they are explicitly intended to terrorize a specific community of people.

    And trying to describe this attack as genocide doesn't really make any sense. Genocide is an attempt to exterminate a particular demographic. So unless you think this guy actually thought he could exterminate the African American demographic from the country, it just doesn't fit.

    He targeted the oldest black church in the US on the anniversary of a major event in the church's history. It's really hard to argue that there wasn't an intent to send a message.

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