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The Grand Unified Thread for [Game of Thrones] (Book spoiler guidelines in OP)

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Posts

  • ChiselphaneChiselphane Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Ghoti wrote: »
    Re: Riverrun
    I think it's been said, but Blackfish going down without an on-screen battle is crap from an ass.
    He said that he had not been in a proper sword fight in years and figured he would embarrass himself. Maybe he did, and they did not show it out of respect.

    This also makes no sense!

    Book spoilers
    In the books, he is part of the Battle in the Whispering Wood (he even leads the group that gets Jaime Lannister drawn out of his camp!), and he leads the van at the Battle of the Camps; plus, he campaigns with Robb for some time and presumably participates in other battles and skirmishes

    It's a disservice to the character to make him some old man that fails epically at holding Riverrun and can't hold a sword properly

    I disagree with this bit. Technically he did hold Riverrun for as long as he was in charge of doing so. It wasn't until he was overridden by feudal law that the siege was broken.

    Chiselphane on
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    I think it'd be a neat twist with plenty of grounding, but I also imagine that a few of last night's scenes would have been shot completely differently if that were true.

    I dunno
    Why was there blood leading down all the way to the Room O' Faces?

    If the Waif was killed all the way over at... wherever Arya was keeping her sword... did she cut her face off with Needle there? That doesn't make sense to me. Another thing that makes no sense is moving her body all the way from that little hay loft or whatever it was to the House of Black and White and cutting the face off there. We've seen the procedure done before; it's surgical and nearly bloodless when it's being done to another. But we've never seen what would happen if someone did it to themselves.

    The way the whole thing was shot seems to be setting us up for a twist, IMO. And D&D have definitely lied about things that have happened before

    Ex:
    Jon Snow is totes dead for good you guys

  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    I think it'd be a neat twist with plenty of grounding, but I also imagine that a few of last night's scenes would have been shot completely differently if that were true.

    I dunno
    Why was there blood leading down all the way to the Room O' Faces?

    If the Waif was killed all the way over at... wherever Arya was keeping her sword... did she cut her face off with Needle there? That doesn't make sense to me. Another thing that makes no sense is moving her body all the way from that little hay loft or whatever it was to the House of Black and White and cutting the face off there. We've seen the procedure done before; it's surgical and nearly bloodless when it's being done to another. But we've never seen what would happen if someone did it to themselves.

    The way the whole thing was shot seems to be setting us up for a twist, IMO. And D&D have definitely lied about things that have happened before

    Ex:
    Jon Snow is totes dead for good you guys

    I could be way wrong. Newest episode:
    The pieces are definitely there, but I just don't believe we're getting an Arya death without a real proper goodbye scene from Maisie Williams. The last we see of Arya proper being that candle in the dark would be neat, but they're not letting a character as important as Arya go without a much more significant farewell.

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor changed Registered User regular
    You guys are making me nervous.

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited June 2016
    You guys are making me nervous.

    It's possible that they intentionally set it up for this kind of speculation and ambiguity, so we become nervous about this character's fate, but frankly I don't think they have the writing chops to be that subtle

    joshofalltrades on
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    The criticisms of the latest episode have nothing to do with being a book reader vs. a show watcher. They are in light of evaluating the show on its own merits. To wit:
    It would've made more sense if she had been trained up and displayed some actual competence only to lose anyway.

    That would be a proper deconstruction.

    Having her show up and have a character arc that spans multiple seasons only to have her act like a fucking moron for no reason is just stupid. They spent way too much screen time building up the weird fantasy aspects of her plot and having her do shit like clean dead bodies when they could've just extended the training montage and made her an actual badass and had a real fucking assassin vs. assassin battle so that when she shows up in Westeros she's a real threat and game-changer. Instead they did whatever the fuck this is.

    Like, Arya's entire arc this season could have been salvaged if they just made her appear to have actually learned something, instead of just bumbling the fuck along doing god-knows-what. If they intended for her to have shown some actual growth, then they did a shit job of showing it on the screen.

    You know how people were grasping at straws for Arya to not have been Arya? A similar motivation is now behind people saying that she did some sort of super secret trickery to grab fruit and smudge it or something. Even in a charitable watching, you would have to admit that the direction was completely off-base if that were the case, because it's not at all clear to the audience (and not in a good way).

  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    You guys are making me nervous.

    It's possible that they intentionally set it up for this kind of speculation and ambiguity, so we become nervous about this character's fate, but frankly I don't think they have the writing chops to be that subtle

    I think in general they seem to try to set up audience expectations so that they can then surprise the audience with a twist. And they try to be clever about it, but fail at the execution, and so we end up with situations like this where charitable viewers come up with (often pretty awesome) theories to explain away the seemingly stupid plot. The problem might not even be entirely in the writing, but in making sure that their ideas come through in the directing and editing of the episode.

    How I think they intended the Arya story to go:
    She wanted to draw out the Waif and lure her into a trap where she can kill her in the dark because she knows how to fight blind and the Waif presumably doesn't. But she overestimated herself and didn't expect the Waif to surprise stab her. Then she spends a pretty long time in the care of the actress, until the Waif realizes she isn't dead, finds her, and finally falls into Arya's trap.

    And that's how it did go in my head-canon and I'll stick with it. But even I can't be charitable enough to say that the show succeeded in telling that story. Instead, we got what looked like a story of incompetence and blind luck, complete with a generous dose of Dorne-level silly pointlessness. It wasn't awful; I still enjoyed watching it. But I'm disappointed because they could have done this so much better.

    Overall verdict: probably weakest episode of the season, still average by the standards of the show. Depending on what happens next, this might still be my favorite season.

    Bliss 101 on
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  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    The criticisms of the latest episode have nothing to do with being a book reader vs. a show watcher. They are in light of evaluating the show on its own merits. To wit:
    It would've made more sense if she had been trained up and displayed some actual competence only to lose anyway.

    That would be a proper deconstruction.

    Having her show up and have a character arc that spans multiple seasons only to have her act like a fucking moron for no reason is just stupid. They spent way too much screen time building up the weird fantasy aspects of her plot and having her do shit like clean dead bodies when they could've just extended the training montage and made her an actual badass and had a real fucking assassin vs. assassin battle so that when she shows up in Westeros she's a real threat and game-changer. Instead they did whatever the fuck this is.

    Like, Arya's entire arc this season could have been salvaged if they just made her appear to have actually learned something, instead of just bumbling the fuck along doing god-knows-what. If they intended for her to have shown some actual growth, then they did a shit job of showing it on the screen.

    You know how people were grasping at straws for Arya to not have been Arya? A similar motivation is now behind people saying that she did some sort of super secret trickery to grab fruit and smudge it or something. Even in a charitable watching, you would have to admit that the direction was completely off-base if that were the case, because it's not at all clear to the audience (and not in a good way).

    Arya
    She has learned things. That was a lot of coins she managed to steal from people, she can prepare and use poisons without poisoning herself, she can learn a city's geography and nooks and crannies, and she doesn't need to rely on her eyes as much as others. None of this is stuff we see her doing on screen and we only get really questionable decisions done for the sake of setting up the chase scenes so the implied skills she's picked up are offset by the stupidity shown on screen. And none of it is the payoff of weird face changing some people had hoped for.

    If future scenes involve her filching things, poison use, comfort in the dark, etc. then there will be some pay off but right now many people don't think what they got was worth the time spent.

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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Arya
    Her cutting the candle and them not showing the fight was absolutely meant to make you think that maybe she didn't make it.

    However, there's no long con here. They just wanted you to ponder until she showed up at the end. That's when you go "oh, so she made it".

  • m!ttensm!ttens he/himRegistered User regular
    Regarding abdominal wounds and last night's episode
    I had an appendectomy about ten years ago in my early twenties and it was the traditional 2-3 inch incision to the abdomen method, not the modern laproscopic surgery. It was about twelve hours before I left the hospital bed and a solid week of convalescence before I could stand up straight and walk (slowly) in a normal fashion. The doctor recommended at least three weeks before I could run or participate in sports. Granted, I wasn't being chased by a pissed off rival assassin, and I don't live in a universe where dragons and resurrections exist, but the suspension of disbelief of a "normal" recovery was stretched a little thin this week.

  • MadpoetMadpoet Registered User regular
    I think it'd be a neat twist with plenty of grounding, but I also imagine that a few of last night's scenes would have been shot completely differently if that were true.

    I dunno
    Why was there blood leading down all the way to the Room O' Faces?

    If the Waif was killed all the way over at... wherever Arya was keeping her sword... did she cut her face off with Needle there? That doesn't make sense to me. Another thing that makes no sense is moving her body all the way from that little hay loft or whatever it was to the House of Black and White and cutting the face off there. We've seen the procedure done before; it's surgical and nearly bloodless when it's being done to another. But we've never seen what would happen if someone did it to themselves.

    The way the whole thing was shot seems to be setting us up for a twist, IMO. And D&D have definitely lied about things that have happened before

    Ex:
    Jon Snow is totes dead for good you guys

    I could be way wrong. Newest episode:
    The pieces are definitely there, but I just don't believe we're getting an Arya death without a real proper goodbye scene from Maisie Williams. The last we see of Arya proper being that candle in the dark would be neat, but they're not letting a character as important as Arya go without a much more significant farewell.

    Except that...
    It's not a goodbye for Maisie, just for Arya Prime. The waif was clearly better than Arya every step of the way. She likely had the same blind fighting training. Arya was wounded and overmatched, yet she seems *just fine* in the final scene with Jaqen. They've been playing the lying game, so the waif knows EVERYTHING about how to be Arya.
    Which is more a more likely reason that Jaqen is smiling?
    • A strange foreign girl defeated one of his loyal pupils and is skipping town
    • A loyal pupil just pwned a student that was resisting training and now they have a face that holds some advantage in Westeros
    • Random smiling is the best way to make a character seem mysterious
    The whole series may as well be called "The Starks Die For Their Mistakes". The candle going out symbolized the death of Arya , Sansa is going to trust Littlefinger and die, and Rickon is probably already flayed. Jon already died, but he's part Targ so he gets to come back and go Fire and Blood on some zombies.

  • KruiteKruite Registered User regular
    I think you guys are bending over backwards on this Arya plot.

    For example, Sliding under a cart, screwing up a landing from a higher elevation, to face roll down a stairway is not master parkour.

  • pirateluigipirateluigi Arr, it be me. Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Kruite wrote: »
    I think you guys are bending over backwards on this Arya plot.

    For example, Sliding under a cart, screwing up a landing from a higher elevation, to face roll down a stairway is not master parkour.

    You've clearly never seen me performing parkour. Face roll down a stairway is like my signature move.

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  • BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    The justifications for Waif is Arya are reaching as far as last week's Jaqen is Arya.

    Show Stannis burnt his daughter at the stake to win a fight. Show Arya survived getting stabbed in the gut and then killed the waif in a swordfight in the dark.

    ...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    Madpoet wrote: »
    I think it'd be a neat twist with plenty of grounding, but I also imagine that a few of last night's scenes would have been shot completely differently if that were true.

    I dunno
    Why was there blood leading down all the way to the Room O' Faces?

    If the Waif was killed all the way over at... wherever Arya was keeping her sword... did she cut her face off with Needle there? That doesn't make sense to me. Another thing that makes no sense is moving her body all the way from that little hay loft or whatever it was to the House of Black and White and cutting the face off there. We've seen the procedure done before; it's surgical and nearly bloodless when it's being done to another. But we've never seen what would happen if someone did it to themselves.

    The way the whole thing was shot seems to be setting us up for a twist, IMO. And D&D have definitely lied about things that have happened before

    Ex:
    Jon Snow is totes dead for good you guys

    I could be way wrong. Newest episode:
    The pieces are definitely there, but I just don't believe we're getting an Arya death without a real proper goodbye scene from Maisie Williams. The last we see of Arya proper being that candle in the dark would be neat, but they're not letting a character as important as Arya go without a much more significant farewell.

    Except that...
    It's not a goodbye for Maisie, just for Arya Prime. The waif was clearly better than Arya every step of the way. She likely had the same blind fighting training. Arya was wounded and overmatched, yet she seems *just fine* in the final scene with Jaqen. They've been playing the lying game, so the waif knows EVERYTHING about how to be Arya.
    Which is more a more likely reason that Jaqen is smiling?
    • A strange foreign girl defeated one of his loyal pupils and is skipping town
    • A loyal pupil just pwned a student that was resisting training and now they have a face that holds some advantage in Westeros
    • Random smiling is the best way to make a character seem mysterious
    The whole series may as well be called "The Starks Die For Their Mistakes". The candle going out symbolized the death of Arya , Sansa is going to trust Littlefinger and die, and Rickon is probably already flayed. Jon already died, but he's part Targ so he gets to come back and go Fire and Blood on some zombies.

    Jaqen
    Or he's smiling because he knows that Arya be serving the Many Faced God with more deaths when she goes to Westeros.

    He's a fanatic to a god of death, what makes him happy is not bound by normal reason.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
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  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Regarding Arya and the Waif:
    Dire Wolf plot armor. Ghost and Nymeria are the only ones still left in the show so Arya and Jon are the only Starks I would consider to be "safe."

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    I'm not saying it's definitely what happened

    But it could be what happened

  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Madpoet wrote: »
    I think it'd be a neat twist with plenty of grounding, but I also imagine that a few of last night's scenes would have been shot completely differently if that were true.

    I dunno
    Why was there blood leading down all the way to the Room O' Faces?

    If the Waif was killed all the way over at... wherever Arya was keeping her sword... did she cut her face off with Needle there? That doesn't make sense to me. Another thing that makes no sense is moving her body all the way from that little hay loft or whatever it was to the House of Black and White and cutting the face off there. We've seen the procedure done before; it's surgical and nearly bloodless when it's being done to another. But we've never seen what would happen if someone did it to themselves.

    The way the whole thing was shot seems to be setting us up for a twist, IMO. And D&D have definitely lied about things that have happened before

    Ex:
    Jon Snow is totes dead for good you guys

    I could be way wrong. Newest episode:
    The pieces are definitely there, but I just don't believe we're getting an Arya death without a real proper goodbye scene from Maisie Williams. The last we see of Arya proper being that candle in the dark would be neat, but they're not letting a character as important as Arya go without a much more significant farewell.

    Except that...
    It's not a goodbye for Maisie, just for Arya Prime. The waif was clearly better than Arya every step of the way. She likely had the same blind fighting training. Arya was wounded and overmatched, yet she seems *just fine* in the final scene with Jaqen. They've been playing the lying game, so the waif knows EVERYTHING about how to be Arya.
    Which is more a more likely reason that Jaqen is smiling?
    • A strange foreign girl defeated one of his loyal pupils and is skipping town
    • A loyal pupil just pwned a student that was resisting training and now they have a face that holds some advantage in Westeros
    • Random smiling is the best way to make a character seem mysterious
    The whole series may as well be called "The Starks Die For Their Mistakes". The candle going out symbolized the death of Arya , Sansa is going to trust Littlefinger and die, and Rickon is probably already flayed. Jon already died, but he's part Targ so he gets to come back and go Fire and Blood on some zombies.
    I don't disagree with the things you're pointing out, but the sticking point for me is that if Arya is now Waif-Arya, then Arya is just dead, and we got no death scene, no final words. When do we ever get that moving forward if Arya is now the Waif?

    If this is a long con to reveal that Arya isn't Arya when she betrays somebody we care about, then the last we'll see of the character is when she pulls her face off. That's possible, especially if the books go that route (POV allows a lot more wiggle room here). I just seriously doubt we're going to see a major cast member's final moment as a quick face-pull. Characters in this series die when they don't expect it, but I can't think of any that would be this sudden and quiet of a departure.

    Edit: Essentially, Arya would have had her litte speech about being Arya of House Stark right before cutting the candle if this was her death scene. That the speech only came after the tension was gone makes me think it was in fact Arya, not the Waif.

    OneAngryPossum on
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Regarding Arya and the Waif:
    Dire Wolf plot armor. Ghost and Nymeria are the only ones still left in the show so Arya and Jon are the only Starks I would consider to be "safe."

    Err...was that mentioned on the show?
    Nymeria being off and eating Frey's that is.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • NaphtaliNaphtali Hazy + Flow SeaRegistered User regular
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Regarding Arya and the Waif:
    Dire Wolf plot armor. Ghost and Nymeria are the only ones still left in the show so Arya and Jon are the only Starks I would consider to be "safe."

    Err...was that mentioned on the show?
    Nymeria being off and eating Frey's that is.
    no

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  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Yeah I don't think anyone who is thinking
    arya might be dead and the waif stole her face
    actually thinks it's the case.

    Just that it might be. And it's something to consider when watching her scenes.

    The things that stick out...
    If you wanted to do that plot this would be the way to do it. Leave the opening while making it seem arya won.

    Arya says in an earlier scene that her plans are to go further west than westeros or at the very least has some questions about what is next but the arya at the end is very sure of herself and what's next.

    Jaquens reaction plays better as a lying game with the waif than a regular conversation with Arya

    What's with the eyes on the waif? What would poking out her eyes accomplish in the dark? It's a call back to aryas first kill but doesn't make much sense.

    arya isn't likely to win that fight despite the darkness. But that's more nit picky.

    It probably isn't true but I don't think it's the same stretching that was done about the previous episode. It's more some things aren't perfect but can be explained by the nature of the "lying game" and if there was a long con from this you'd want the viewer thinking what most of you are

    Disrupter on
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  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    Yeah, just to be clear, I think it's a fun theory, but an unlikely one for structural and storytelling reasons. And a lot of those on my part are much more of a deterrent for the show than for the books.

    Another last night thought on the subject:
    I think they emphasized the Arya leading the Waif into a trap angle too hard for it to be a misdirect. The Waif is too confident when she arrives, and makes no mention of Arya deliberately leaving blood trails to bring her into the web. The story is saying that the Waif was tricked by Arya, and doesn't provide a good counterbalance to that narrative.

    I think it was pretty straighforward set of events, flat as the final scene might be. I only hope we get a bit more insight into Jaqen's feelings and goals than that mysterious smile. The Faceless Men are a vague enough collection of beliefs that I'm onboard with how it wrapped up, but I'd prefer more than what we got.

  • rndmherorndmhero Registered User regular
    Calling it for next season:
    Arya is alive.

    Arya makes it to Westeros.

    Arya goes to Dorne.

    Rest of the season is shitty training montages with Arya and the sand snakes.

    I'll take my golden globe now, thanks.

  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Maguano wrote: »
    tonight
    was that terminator 2 i just watched?

    right?! i thought the same exact thing
    the slow, deliberate movement with a more or less expressionless face really made the parallel clear

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  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    I think a bittersweet ending where
    arya and the waifs fight ends like it does without us knowing a victor but lead to assume arya won but in the process becomes "no one" so it doesn't really matter if it's the waif or arya behind the face...

    Could have worked pretty well. In a god damnit no! Red wedding kind of way

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  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    Hachface wrote: »
    Best part of the episode was
    the Dornishman picking out the fly and eating it. The rest was hugely disappointing.

    I straight up did not understand the Stark part of the joke.

    it's a classic joke about an englishman, a scot, and and irishman with english = lannister, scot = martell, irish = stark

    though the way i always heard the joke is that the scot/dornish swats away the fly and continues drinking

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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    Regarding wacky theory about ep 8:
    I had some similar thoughts, especially the lying game with Hghar. His smile was so suspicious. I don't think it's the case but it isn't out of consideration!

    But obviously if the Waif comes back claiming to be Arya, we'll see the real Arya come after her, somehow surviving, using faces to conceal herself but eventually revealing that her real face is a skinned ruin of exposed muscle tissue.

  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Madpoet wrote: »
    I think it'd be a neat twist with plenty of grounding, but I also imagine that a few of last night's scenes would have been shot completely differently if that were true.

    I dunno
    Why was there blood leading down all the way to the Room O' Faces?

    If the Waif was killed all the way over at... wherever Arya was keeping her sword... did she cut her face off with Needle there? That doesn't make sense to me. Another thing that makes no sense is moving her body all the way from that little hay loft or whatever it was to the House of Black and White and cutting the face off there. We've seen the procedure done before; it's surgical and nearly bloodless when it's being done to another. But we've never seen what would happen if someone did it to themselves.

    The way the whole thing was shot seems to be setting us up for a twist, IMO. And D&D have definitely lied about things that have happened before

    Ex:
    Jon Snow is totes dead for good you guys

    I could be way wrong. Newest episode:
    The pieces are definitely there, but I just don't believe we're getting an Arya death without a real proper goodbye scene from Maisie Williams. The last we see of Arya proper being that candle in the dark would be neat, but they're not letting a character as important as Arya go without a much more significant farewell.

    Except that...
    It's not a goodbye for Maisie, just for Arya Prime. The waif was clearly better than Arya every step of the way. She likely had the same blind fighting training. Arya was wounded and overmatched, yet she seems *just fine* in the final scene with Jaqen. They've been playing the lying game, so the waif knows EVERYTHING about how to be Arya.
    Which is more a more likely reason that Jaqen is smiling?
    • A strange foreign girl defeated one of his loyal pupils and is skipping town
    • A loyal pupil just pwned a student that was resisting training and now they have a face that holds some advantage in Westeros
    • Random smiling is the best way to make a character seem mysterious
    The whole series may as well be called "The Starks Die For Their Mistakes". The candle going out symbolized the death of Arya , Sansa is going to trust Littlefinger and die, and Rickon is probably already flayed. Jon already died, but he's part Targ so he gets to come back and go Fire and Blood on some zombies.

    Jaqen
    Or he's smiling because he knows that Arya be serving the Many Faced God with more deaths when she goes to Westeros.

    He's a fanatic to a god of death, what makes him happy is not bound by normal reason.

    Yeah I think this exactly. Arya is
    favored by the many faced god because she will bring him many many names when she lives.

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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Jaqen
    Doesn't he mention a few time that "there are many ways to serve the many faced god." That along with the fact that the waif seemed to also be failing to become a true faceless man, just in a different way than arya, means the result can be a bit ambiguous but could work and be hopeful either way.

    ideally if you wanted to set it up where the waif took arya's face, it would be nice if she wasn't presented so sadistically emotion filled.

    I just realized what I said and forgot how D&D feel about sadists, she's totally dead guys.

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  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    Not to blatantly pile on about the Arya sequence, but
    It really felt like there were too many cooks in the kitchen with how that sequence played out. Like one moment, she's almost dead/bleeding out, then the next she's jumping off a second story building, like 3 times in a row almost dead/amazing physical feat/almost dead/amazing physical feat/almost dead/duel to defeat the waif.

    Now, while its certainly a well worn trope about how the good guy has to get beat up before summoning up some hidden well of energy/strength to defeat a foe, it certainly can be an effective one. But in my eyes, they "went to the well" two (or three) times too many in that sequence. It lost its weight or gravitas, by the time she was making her way to her hiding spot with needle. And then the weird shift there when it was rather obvious (to me) that she was making the marks to lead her in to her trap, were we supposed to believe that was her plan all along? or just that she thought of it while desperately running away from the waif? It just seemed like they were trying to hit different notes with that sequence and they all seemed kind of off key. It didn't work well at all in my opinion.

    I thought most of the rest of the episode worked well. The Tyrion/Grey Worm/Missandei convo worked much better this time (maybe due to actually developing some chemistry), and didn't seem as out of place as the last one. And I'm happy Sandor's story is going places.

    Also, as far as Jaime is concerned, I think (or maybe I hope) he's certainly saying that he loves Cersei over everyone, and I think thats at least partly that he's lying to try and make it true, which shows in the last scene where he lets Brienne and Pod go. He's definitely conflicted, even if he tries not to be. He's certainly "coming along" slower than the books, but I think that it'll be a big twist sometime mid-next season where he (hopefully) comes to realize how much of a monster Cersei is.

    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    Yeah, there's no way that theory is right.
    This theory is about as zany as Bolt-On or HS = HR to be honest.

    Arya is a fan favorite in the TV show. The show just wants you to see that Jaqen was rooting for Arya to kill the waif because Jaqen doesn't care about the waif but he personally is fond of Arya. Jaqen and Arya are buds, and now she's heading to Westeros.

    Sometimes things are just as simple as they look.

  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    re: Cersei (books spoilers and latest tv ep)
    Wasn't her mom courted by one of the Targs? or she had a big crush on Rhaegar? Since it looks like she's going to burn down most if not all of king's landing, it would be a nice little parallel to the mad king / Bran's vision

    other tv thing
    I was seriously worried that Arya's plot line was just going to end with her becoming a milk of the poppy addict, wandering around the streets of Braavos trying to score another hit.

    Which, seeing as how it has played out, wouldn't be that much worse than what we have now...

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  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    re: Arya's characterization
    I don't get the complaints that acting a foolishly naive in Braavos was out of character for her. She's a Stark and a teenager, two groups whose defining characteristic is poor risk evaluation skills. We knows he's impulsive and tomboyish, and her go-to moves are "pretending like I'm harmless ... surprise stab!" and "Maybe if I act tough you'll be intimidated." I'm struggling to come up with anything that paints her as especially street-savvy or wary. She even had trouble passing as low-born in front of Tywin, which makes sense because her life experiences are 12 years in a castle and one desperately on the run.

    I agree that the "stabbed in the gut but I got better and now I can outrun the Waif" bits were tough to swallow, but Arya's characterization seemed fine to me.

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  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited June 2016
    Podly wrote: »
    re: Cersei (books spoilers and latest tv ep)
    Wasn't her mom courted by one of the Targs? or she had a big crush on Rhaegar? Since it looks like she's going to burn down most if not all of king's landing, it would be a nice little parallel to the mad king / Bran's vision

    other tv thing
    I was seriously worried that Arya's plot line was just going to end with her becoming a milk of the poppy addict, wandering around the streets of Braavos trying to score another hit.

    Which, seeing as how it has played out, wouldn't be that much worse than what we have now...

    pure speculation but I will spoiler it anyways because it mentions a book thing
    She and Jaime are blonde incestuous twins who had a blend of great and terrible kids from their incestuous union, and Cersei has already shown she likes to burn shit down with wildfire when she devastated the tower of the hand.

    I continue to hold to my belief that they are children of the mad king, and Tyrion was Tywin's only son.

    This makes not only Tywin's contempt for him all the more damning, but it also makes Jaime's kingslaying all the more poetic.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Podly wrote: »
    re: Cersei (books spoilers and latest tv ep)
    Wasn't her mom courted by one of the Targs? or she had a big crush on Rhaegar? Since it looks like she's going to burn down most if not all of king's landing, it would be a nice little parallel to the mad king / Bran's vision

    No.
    The Mad King seemed to sorta have a thing for her but Tywin sent her the fuck away and the King and her were nowhere near each other at appropriate times for Jamie/Cersei. There's also the fact that she apparently really loved Tywin.

    I get the idea but the timings just don't work out at all.

    Edit: Wait, that's Tyrion.

    The Jamie/Cersei thing comes from this passage that makes people think that:
    “I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest.”
    “As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”
    Daenerys POV, ADWD

    You have to assume the mad king fucked her during the bedding ceremony. It is such a neckbeardy theory it is amazing and only seems plausible if you've never met actual humans before.

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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    syndalis wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    re: Cersei (books spoilers and latest tv ep)
    Wasn't her mom courted by one of the Targs? or she had a big crush on Rhaegar? Since it looks like she's going to burn down most if not all of king's landing, it would be a nice little parallel to the mad king / Bran's vision

    other tv thing
    I was seriously worried that Arya's plot line was just going to end with her becoming a milk of the poppy addict, wandering around the streets of Braavos trying to score another hit.

    Which, seeing as how it has played out, wouldn't be that much worse than what we have now...

    pure speculation but I will spoiler it anyways because it mentions a book thing
    She and Jaime are blonde incestuous twins who had a blend of great and terrible kids from their incestuous union, and Cersei has already shown she likes to burn shit down with wildfire when she devastated the tower of the hand.

    I continue to hold to my belief that they are children of the mad king, and Tyrion was Tywin's only son.

    This makes not only Tywin's contempt for him all the more damning, but it also makes Jaime's kingslaying all the more poetic.

    I mean...
    it's not like incest and pyromania are hereditary, really.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    My biggest complaints were:
    The showrunners clearly just wanted to get people to think it might not have been Arya who got stabbed.

    1) The scene before stab-city she's in different clothes/hair and is clutching needle, aware of the danger she's in. But then when next we see her she's walking with arms behind her back in a way that she doesn't do(but Jaqen has), her hair and clothes are different, but she doesn't have needle. So she's acting like a complete dip shit or another person, when we have just been shown that she knows she's in danger.

    2) Demands a cabin from the captain, when on her way to Braavos she doesn't want a cabin. Also throws the silver right handed when she's left handed.

    It was a deliberate misdirect that just made Arya look inept just for the sake of driving speculation for a week until this episode when they did the oh so predictable kill of lady crane and kicked off the terminator chase. They even had lady crane admit to fucking up the face of the girl who tried to get her killed just so the audience would feel less sympathetic when crane gets killed 2 seconds later.

    The writing on the show is just terrible at times, it's just how it is.

  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    Podly wrote: »
    re: Cersei (books spoilers and latest tv ep)
    Wasn't her mom courted by one of the Targs? or she had a big crush on Rhaegar? Since it looks like she's going to burn down most if not all of king's landing, it would be a nice little parallel to the mad king / Bran's vision

    No.
    The Mad King seemed to sorta have a thing for her but Tywin sent her the fuck away and the King and her were nowhere near each other at appropriate times for Jamie/Cersei. There's also the fact that she apparently really loved Tywin.

    I get the idea but the timings just don't work out at all.

    Wait wait
    Could have sworn there was a throwaway line in Dance about how he was "improper" during the bedding with her, and was present for that.

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  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    re: timing in the tv show
    it's kind of hilarious that arya will have gone to essos and back before dany even gets to westeros

    but i would laugh like hell if arya was actually having poppy dreams for like years and by the time she gets to westeros the night king has already conquered everything

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  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    here's the relevant book quote
    “I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest.”
    “As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”

    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
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