jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
That being said, I have no doubt from all the texts that The Mad King did become paranoid and irrational, but the events of the series have made me doubt the official record.
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fRAWRstThe Seas CallThe Mad AnswerRegistered Userregular
edited September 2015
EDIT: spoilering this since it may be in S6
The Stark Tully Arryn Baratheon marriage alliance was really obviously a huge power play.
Also, Hoster tried to marry Lysa to Jaime Lannister, an even more obvious play to get the realm to rebel
Maesters are doing very, very shady shit, and aDwD theon chapters brings a whole new light in who was counseling Rickard Stark
Its one of the reasons why I am very interested in Sam and Marwyn and the glass candles
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
It would be a substantial reversal for Aerys to turn out not to have been a nutbag shitter. One that would make me question Martin's mental health.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
It would be a substantial reversal for Aerys to turn out not to have been a nutbag shitter. One that would make me question Martin's mental health.
He can be a nutbag, but I dont see why his story is taken as gospel when the entire series is full of dirty lying liars and self-delusional nutcases. The concept of Aerys entire account being 100% factual makes no sense within the world its presented in, because it's made very clear, over and over, that rumors and news and gossip in Westeros and Essos are reliable in their utter unreliability.
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CaptainPeacockBoard Game HoarderTop o' the LakeRegistered Userregular
aDwD theon chapters brings a whole new light in who was counseling Rickard Stark
In spoilers, please explain what you mean.
Rickard was being advised of the marriages by the Maester of Winterfell during that time. I forget the name now, but basically Lady Dustin wanted to marry Brandon, but "southern ambitions" had Rickard betroth Brandon to a southern house. Lady Dustin goes on to say how she hates Maesters, who are they actually working for. They teach our children, deliver our messages, but who can say what actually is in the message etc etc
Inside the crypts they find that some of the dead kings' swords are missing. A bad omen, Theon thinks, as the swords are said to protect the crypt and keep the spirits of the dead from wandering. Dustin asks Theon why he loves the Starks, and Theon reluctantly explains he always wanted to be one, but never could. Dustin remarks that they are similar in that regard, explaining how Brandon Stark took her maidenhead and was enamored with her rather than with his betrothed, Catelyn Tully. Rickard Stark arranged the betrothal of his eldest son to Catelyn, a match that served his ambitions more than one to Lady Barbrey, a daughter of one of his own northern vassals. After Brandon's betrothal to Catelyn, the ambitious Lord Ryswell wanted Barbrey to marry Eddard, but after Rickard and Brandon were both murdered by the Mad King, Eddard fulfilled his older brother’s betrothal to Catelyn to ensure support from Riverrun during Robert's Rebellion. Left to marry Lord Willam Dustin, she blames Ned for Lord Dustin's death at the Tower of Joy during Robert's Rebellion. She felt slighted that Eddard merely buried her husband in Dorne, yet went to great lengths to transport his sister's body north to be buried at Winterfell.
She claims that she intends to seize Ned Stark's bones, delayed by the Iron Born's occupation of Moat Cailin, and feed them to her dogs, rather than let them be buried in the crypt. On the way back up she tells him to repeat nothing to the Boltons. Theon swears he will not, to which she says he has been trained well, leaving him there.
Maester Luewin almost certainly tricked Ned into making Jon take the black, Benjen was against it but Luewin told Ned that Benjen supported it. The maesters apparently had a hand in killing the last dragons, and Marwyn is a rogue one looking to do something with Dany. Marwyn even showed Mirri Maz Dur how to use blood magic and similar, and lots of fans speculate that it was not happenstance that Mirri was "Saved" by dany and subsequently murdered Rhaego.
Basically the Maesters are the largest group of coordinated spies and councilors, and they have shaped Westeros to its current form.
EDIT: some more choice quotes
“ If you do not have a maester, it is taken to mean that you are of little consequence.[10] ”
- Lady Barbrey Dustin, to Theon Greyjoy
“ Isn't it clever how the maesters go only by one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from. [10] ”
- Lady Barbrey Dustin, to Theon Greyjoy
He was born a bastard son of a Hightower girl and an Archmaester of the Citadel. After forging his chain, he served at Winterfell when Lord Rickard Stark was head of House Stark. It is said by Barbrey Ryswell he instigated Lord Rickard's southron ambitions, including the marriage of his son, Brandon, to Catelyn Tully.[1]
It would be a substantial reversal for Aerys to turn out not to have been a nutbag shitter. One that would make me question Martin's mental health.
He can be a nutbag, but I dont see why his story is taken as gospel when the entire series is full of dirty lying liars and self-delusional nutcases. The concept of Aerys entire account being 100% factual makes no sense within the world its presented in, because it's made very clear, over and over, that rumors and news and gossip in Westeros and Essos are reliable in their utter unreliability.
I mean the Stark executions were in open court.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
It would be a substantial reversal for Aerys to turn out not to have been a nutbag shitter. One that would make me question Martin's mental health.
He can be a nutbag, but I dont see why his story is taken as gospel when the entire series is full of dirty lying liars and self-delusional nutcases. The concept of Aerys entire account being 100% factual makes no sense within the world its presented in, because it's made very clear, over and over, that rumors and news and gossip in Westeros and Essos are reliable in their utter unreliability.
I mean the Stark executions were in open court.
Yeah there's basically no support for questioning that Aerys was a fucking nutter. Especially since we get first hand POV evidence of this from Jaime. It's not rumours and gossip.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
It would be a substantial reversal for Aerys to turn out not to have been a nutbag shitter. One that would make me question Martin's mental health.
He can be a nutbag, but I dont see why his story is taken as gospel when the entire series is full of dirty lying liars and self-delusional nutcases. The concept of Aerys entire account being 100% factual makes no sense within the world its presented in, because it's made very clear, over and over, that rumors and news and gossip in Westeros and Essos are reliable in their utter unreliability.
I mean the Stark executions were in open court.
So was Ned's open rebellion on the King, wherein he made no mention of murdering Joffrey, but he still had to confess that he was trying to murder Joffrey.
It would be a substantial reversal for Aerys to turn out not to have been a nutbag shitter. One that would make me question Martin's mental health.
He can be a nutbag, but I dont see why his story is taken as gospel when the entire series is full of dirty lying liars and self-delusional nutcases. The concept of Aerys entire account being 100% factual makes no sense within the world its presented in, because it's made very clear, over and over, that rumors and news and gossip in Westeros and Essos are reliable in their utter unreliability.
I mean the Stark executions were in open court.
So was Ned's open rebellion on the King, wherein he made no mention of murdering Joffrey, but he still had to confess that he was trying to murder Joffrey.
Slow roasting a man in his own armor while his son is hanged the more he tries to save him is not exactly a false confession.
How does that become the common narrative from both loyalist (Selmy and Varys, for example) and rebellious forces if it didn't happen?
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
It would be a substantial reversal for Aerys to turn out not to have been a nutbag shitter. One that would make me question Martin's mental health.
He can be a nutbag, but I dont see why his story is taken as gospel when the entire series is full of dirty lying liars and self-delusional nutcases. The concept of Aerys entire account being 100% factual makes no sense within the world its presented in, because it's made very clear, over and over, that rumors and news and gossip in Westeros and Essos are reliable in their utter unreliability.
Aerys being a loon isn't a rumor or news or gossip, though. Both the series and the book draw a distinction between something that is supposed to be rumor and something that just is. Even when employing the unreliable narrator from one character's perspective, often you see a different version from another character's perspective. However, when it comes to Aerys being a lunatic, not a single character, despite their loyalties, ever deviates from the "Aerys was off his rocker" narrative because that's how it was.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
It would be a substantial reversal for Aerys to turn out not to have been a nutbag shitter. One that would make me question Martin's mental health.
He can be a nutbag, but I dont see why his story is taken as gospel when the entire series is full of dirty lying liars and self-delusional nutcases. The concept of Aerys entire account being 100% factual makes no sense within the world its presented in, because it's made very clear, over and over, that rumors and news and gossip in Westeros and Essos are reliable in their utter unreliability.
I mean the Stark executions were in open court.
So was Ned's open rebellion on the King, wherein he made no mention of murdering Joffrey, but he still had to confess that he was trying to murder Joffrey.
Slow roasting a man in his own armor while his son is hanged the more he tries to save him is not exactly a false confession.
How does that become the common narrative from both loyalist (Selmy and Varys, for example) and rebellious forces if it didn't happen?
Fair point.
I dont know how much the show will coincide with the books about him, but i have a feeling were going to get a lot more story on Aerys in this latest installment, and I have a feeling the events of his decline had more to do Lannister meddling than is currently noted.
I just came to this idea because Im rewatching the series and I, although I knew deception was a big part of the story, I didnt realize it was pretty much the central theme. Self-deception seems to be the reason everything happens in the beginning, and seems a key point in a lot of the story.
It just made me wonder how much of the account of Aerys was correct in the minds of those who remembered it.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Also, just as an aside, one of the main things repeated in the early story was the fading of memories from around that time. Robert cannot remember Lyannas face was always a line that stuck out to me.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Also, just as an aside, one of the main things repeated in the early story was the fading of memories from around that time. Robert cannot remember Lyannas face was always a line that stuck out to me.
He can't remember her face because it was fifteen to twenty years ago that he last saw her, and he's spent those twenty years as a womanizing drunkard. There's no magic going on there that's causing people to misremember the Mad King burning people alive in the throne room.
reVerse on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Also, just as an aside, one of the main things repeated in the early story was the fading of memories from around that time. Robert cannot remember Lyannas face was always a line that stuck out to me.
He can't remember her face because it was fifteen to twenty years ago that he last saw her, and he's spent those twenty years as a womanizing drunkard. There's no magic going on there that's causing people to misremember the Mad King burning people alive in the throne room.
I didn't suggest it was magic, just that memory is naturally unreliable and can fade.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Also, just as an aside, one of the main things repeated in the early story was the fading of memories from around that time. Robert cannot remember Lyannas face was always a line that stuck out to me.
He can't remember her face because it was fifteen to twenty years ago that he last saw her, and he's spent those twenty years as a womanizing drunkard. There's no magic going on there that's causing people to misremember the Mad King burning people alive in the throne room.
I didn't suggest it was magic, just that memory is naturally unreliable and can fade.
None of the people who witnessed the Mad King burn people alive show no signs of their memories having "faded". None of them describes the burnings as a happy picnic with marshmallows for all.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Also, just as an aside, one of the main things repeated in the early story was the fading of memories from around that time. Robert cannot remember Lyannas face was always a line that stuck out to me.
He can't remember her face because it was fifteen to twenty years ago that he last saw her, and he's spent those twenty years as a womanizing drunkard. There's no magic going on there that's causing people to misremember the Mad King burning people alive in the throne room.
I didn't suggest it was magic, just that memory is naturally unreliable and can fade.
None of the people who witnessed the Mad King burn people alive show no signs of their memories having "faded". None of them describes the burnings as a happy picnic with marshmallows for all.
Yeah, nevermind. I didnt realize you were going to be personally insulted.
I don't know where you see any support in the show or books for your theory that everyone is either lying or misrememebring the same narrative about the mad king
Do you have more examples?
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fRAWRstThe Seas CallThe Mad AnswerRegistered Userregular
Spoilers S6 and Book4-5
So with Euron being cast, does that mean we gets a Kingmoot? Is Yara/Asha going to be there? Does the show completely do away with it? Theon is on the run in winterfell, and he's supposed to run into Stannis but...
I'm rereading aCoK and the amount of times "blood and fire" is mentioned in the Theon chapters is palpable. Euron needs to be more charming than Daario, unless Jorah murders him on their khaleesi ring search
I actually agree that we aren't getting the whole truth on the Mad King business. Not denying he did some awful things but it's likely there were some actual reasons or something that triggered that path of madness that we aren't being told about.
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Nintendo ID: Incindium
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
It would be a substantial reversal for Aerys to turn out not to have been a nutbag shitter. One that would make me question Martin's mental health.
He can be a nutbag, but I dont see why his story is taken as gospel when the entire series is full of dirty lying liars and self-delusional nutcases. The concept of Aerys entire account being 100% factual makes no sense within the world its presented in, because it's made very clear, over and over, that rumors and news and gossip in Westeros and Essos are reliable in their utter unreliability.
It's a foregone conclusion that not everything sai about the rebellion is presented in a 100% truthful light, but if your contention is that Aerys will turn out to be a good and decent king I think there is less support for that than for patch face to win the iron trone
I actually agree that we aren't getting the whole truth on the Mad King business. Not denying he did some awful things but it's likely there were some actual reasons or something that triggered that path of madness that we aren't being told about.
I think it's in the DVD extras but it is definitely in the books.
The Defiance of Duskendale
Aerys goes and visits with the Darklyns. They seize him and hold him hostage for six months all while treating him pretty much like shit. They also keep threatening to kill him if anybody tried to attack them. Tywin gathers a great host around them and just sits there for months on end. He was for storming the castle and calling the bluff having said "We have a perfectly good king right here." while indicating Rhaegar.
This is where Barristan decided to show everybody just how much of a bad ass he was. He scales the town walls, sneaks through town then he scales the castle walls and kills a sentry, gets Aerys and kills his way out of the town. He does this all by himself. He was renowned as a great knight for a reason.
Of course Aerys gets out and back in charge he orders all the Darklyns killed, and all their land seized and their castles razed. (He also has all of House Hollard slain except Dontos who was a baby and he was only spared because Barristan begged it. He went a little nuts for a sorta understandable reason but doesn't ever really recover from that experience.
It would be a substantial reversal for Aerys to turn out not to have been a nutbag shitter. One that would make me question Martin's mental health.
He can be a nutbag, but I dont see why his story is taken as gospel when the entire series is full of dirty lying liars and self-delusional nutcases. The concept of Aerys entire account being 100% factual makes no sense within the world its presented in, because it's made very clear, over and over, that rumors and news and gossip in Westeros and Essos are reliable in their utter unreliability.
It's a foregone conclusion that not everything sai about the rebellion is presented in a 100% truthful light, but if your contention is that Aerys will turn out to be a good and decent king I think there is less support for that than for patch face to win the iron trone
Not my contention, although by all accounts he didn't start off as a raving lunatic.
If they stay true to the books, then I have a feeling his children and the long series of miscarriages and stillbirths might not have been entirely... up to nature.
Basically, anything that Tywin or any of the Lannisters have had their hands in, I doubt when it comes to it being retold. A lot of Aerys history is the contentious relationship between him and Tywin.
I also wonder how much alike Dany and Aerys are in temperament. We don't really get a baseline on Aerys, at least nothing solid, before he went bugfuck.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
It would be a substantial reversal for Aerys to turn out not to have been a nutbag shitter. One that would make me question Martin's mental health.
He can be a nutbag, but I dont see why his story is taken as gospel when the entire series is full of dirty lying liars and self-delusional nutcases. The concept of Aerys entire account being 100% factual makes no sense within the world its presented in, because it's made very clear, over and over, that rumors and news and gossip in Westeros and Essos are reliable in their utter unreliability.
It's a foregone conclusion that not everything sai about the rebellion is presented in a 100% truthful light, but if your contention is that Aerys will turn out to be a good and decent king I think there is less support for that than for patch face to win the iron trone
Not my contention, although by all accounts he didn't start off as a raving lunatic.
If they stay true to the books, then I have a feeling his children and the long series of miscarriages and stillbirths might not have been entirely... up to nature.
Basically, anything that Tywin or any of the Lannisters have had their hands in, I doubt when it comes to it being retold. A lot of Aerys history is the contentious relationship between him and Tywin.
I also wonder how much alike Dany and Aerys are in temperament. We don't really get a baseline on Aerys, at least nothing solid, before he went bugfuck.
I think the books and show have been consistent in saying Visyres was like Aerys and Dany is closer to Rhaegar, who by all accounts would have been a good king.
I think the Maesters clearly are up to something, but I feel the books and the show would've given hints if the account of the mad king wasn't upton snuff.
Damn you guys. Every time I come to the forums and there are suddenly like, 40 new messages I always wonder if its because of a book release announcement. Instead it's just silliness about Aerys being slandered.
I don't know about January, but GRRM is on the record as wanting the book out before season 6 of Game of Thrones airs. I'll keep my fingers crossed for at least a spring release.
Posts
Also, Hoster tried to marry Lysa to Jaime Lannister, an even more obvious play to get the realm to rebel
Maesters are doing very, very shady shit, and aDwD theon chapters brings a whole new light in who was counseling Rickard Stark
Its one of the reasons why I am very interested in Sam and Marwyn and the glass candles
He can be a nutbag, but I dont see why his story is taken as gospel when the entire series is full of dirty lying liars and self-delusional nutcases. The concept of Aerys entire account being 100% factual makes no sense within the world its presented in, because it's made very clear, over and over, that rumors and news and gossip in Westeros and Essos are reliable in their utter unreliability.
In spoilers, please explain what you mean.
Maester Luewin almost certainly tricked Ned into making Jon take the black, Benjen was against it but Luewin told Ned that Benjen supported it. The maesters apparently had a hand in killing the last dragons, and Marwyn is a rogue one looking to do something with Dany. Marwyn even showed Mirri Maz Dur how to use blood magic and similar, and lots of fans speculate that it was not happenstance that Mirri was "Saved" by dany and subsequently murdered Rhaego.
Basically the Maesters are the largest group of coordinated spies and councilors, and they have shaped Westeros to its current form.
EDIT: some more choice quotes
EDIT 2, found the Winterfell Maester
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Walys_Flowers
I mean the Stark executions were in open court.
Yeah there's basically no support for questioning that Aerys was a fucking nutter. Especially since we get first hand POV evidence of this from Jaime. It's not rumours and gossip.
So was Ned's open rebellion on the King, wherein he made no mention of murdering Joffrey, but he still had to confess that he was trying to murder Joffrey.
Slow roasting a man in his own armor while his son is hanged the more he tries to save him is not exactly a false confession.
How does that become the common narrative from both loyalist (Selmy and Varys, for example) and rebellious forces if it didn't happen?
Aerys being a loon isn't a rumor or news or gossip, though. Both the series and the book draw a distinction between something that is supposed to be rumor and something that just is. Even when employing the unreliable narrator from one character's perspective, often you see a different version from another character's perspective. However, when it comes to Aerys being a lunatic, not a single character, despite their loyalties, ever deviates from the "Aerys was off his rocker" narrative because that's how it was.
Fair point.
I dont know how much the show will coincide with the books about him, but i have a feeling were going to get a lot more story on Aerys in this latest installment, and I have a feeling the events of his decline had more to do Lannister meddling than is currently noted.
I just came to this idea because Im rewatching the series and I, although I knew deception was a big part of the story, I didnt realize it was pretty much the central theme. Self-deception seems to be the reason everything happens in the beginning, and seems a key point in a lot of the story.
It just made me wonder how much of the account of Aerys was correct in the minds of those who remembered it.
He can't remember her face because it was fifteen to twenty years ago that he last saw her, and he's spent those twenty years as a womanizing drunkard. There's no magic going on there that's causing people to misremember the Mad King burning people alive in the throne room.
I didn't suggest it was magic, just that memory is naturally unreliable and can fade.
None of the people who witnessed the Mad King burn people alive show no signs of their memories having "faded". None of them describes the burnings as a happy picnic with marshmallows for all.
Yeah, nevermind. I didnt realize you were going to be personally insulted.
Do you have more examples?
I'm rereading aCoK and the amount of times "blood and fire" is mentioned in the Theon chapters is palpable. Euron needs to be more charming than Daario, unless Jorah murders him on their khaleesi ring search
Nintendo ID: Incindium
PSN: IncindiumX
It's a foregone conclusion that not everything sai about the rebellion is presented in a 100% truthful light, but if your contention is that Aerys will turn out to be a good and decent king I think there is less support for that than for patch face to win the iron trone
I think it's in the DVD extras but it is definitely in the books.
The Defiance of Duskendale
This is where Barristan decided to show everybody just how much of a bad ass he was. He scales the town walls, sneaks through town then he scales the castle walls and kills a sentry, gets Aerys and kills his way out of the town. He does this all by himself. He was renowned as a great knight for a reason.
Of course Aerys gets out and back in charge he orders all the Darklyns killed, and all their land seized and their castles razed. (He also has all of House Hollard slain except Dontos who was a baby and he was only spared because Barristan begged it. He went a little nuts for a sorta understandable reason but doesn't ever really recover from that experience.
Not my contention, although by all accounts he didn't start off as a raving lunatic.
If they stay true to the books, then I have a feeling his children and the long series of miscarriages and stillbirths might not have been entirely... up to nature.
Basically, anything that Tywin or any of the Lannisters have had their hands in, I doubt when it comes to it being retold. A lot of Aerys history is the contentious relationship between him and Tywin.
I also wonder how much alike Dany and Aerys are in temperament. We don't really get a baseline on Aerys, at least nothing solid, before he went bugfuck.
I think the books and show have been consistent in saying Visyres was like Aerys and Dany is closer to Rhaegar, who by all accounts would have been a good king.
I think the Maesters clearly are up to something, but I feel the books and the show would've given hints if the account of the mad king wasn't upton snuff.
It wouldn't surprise me if the maesters had it out for the Targaryen line what with their opinions of magic and all
Possible Spoilers
Possible spoilers:
BWhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
(Overheard at PAX, on speculating about future ASoIaF plotlines)
"Talk without rhythm, and you won't attract The GRRM."
I'm not actually quite sure what that means but it sounded good.
It's a Dune reference. If you walk arrhythmically, you won't attract sandworms (who would otherwise eat you).
Sage advice.
its... gotta happen right?!
george pls
I don't know about January, but GRRM is on the record as wanting the book out before season 6 of Game of Thrones airs. I'll keep my fingers crossed for at least a spring release.
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one can hope, right?
I just don't know what it means to talk without rhythm (beyond, I suppose, the most literal interpretation of "no poetry, music, etc.").
i think it means, whenever a plot seems to be going in a certain way, GRRM changes it up and breaks the rhythm of what was happening in the story.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k