Are details relating to Jon's parentage spoilerworthy? Book readers have way more subtle detail, but I think they've been so clumsily beating people over the head with this stuff in the show that it's not an issue.
At this point everyone has the same general theories on both sides of the camp.
I think we can openly discuss the theories at this point, ESPECIALLY if things like the Tower of Joy DVD extras from the HBO show are in play.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
People promoting the Dorne stuff being so great in the book vs the show are leaving out the Meeren stuff being so much worse because part of that Dorne plot. It's a wash.
People promoting the Dorne stuff being so great in the book vs the show are leaving out the Meeren stuff being so much worse because part of that Dorne plot. It's a wash.
Nah. I liked the Meeren stuff and the show version is just basically the same thing, but sillier. (eg - Barristan's death and Unsullied mediocrity)
They really didn't end up doing much with the flashbacks. Well singular. Flashback. They opened the season with the Cersei flashback and I thought they were going to follow up with maybe some more of those to flesh out book bits they may have skipped over in the past. Not so much.
I need to reread Feast and Dance sometime. My memory on the specifics is a bit hazy, but yeah some of those show choices were rough. Even when they weren't large changes, just the way they chose to frame and film certain scenes seemed...poor.
I am one of the book thread people dissatisfied with the current state of the show. I loved it when it started.
Just to clarify... I am not a book snob. In fact, I think GRRM isn't really that great of a writer. The showrunners (D&D) were doing just fine (perhaps even a superb job) creating an adaptation of the books on the screen. Where they went off the rails was when they did not have exact source material to adapt and had to start "connecting the dots" themselves. Yes, they know where the plot is going, but they are driving a semi-truck through a field of radioactive barrels to get there, while GRRM's books are more of a nimble sports car that is dodging as many of the barrels as possible to get to the goal of the plot. I think the show runners are addicted to the GRRM "shock" death/rape/sex scene now, and using it way more often than needed. I also think they are just going to be joyful as gooses to be able to spoil the ending of the series, no matter how many character assassinations it takes them to get there.
The show without backing material is poorly written.
The show with backing material is a pretty, good adaptation of GRRM's books given the medium and limitations.
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
People promoting the Dorne stuff being so great in the book vs the show are leaving out the Meeren stuff being so much worse because part of that Dorne plot. It's a wash.
I disagree. They did some weird tonal stuff with Dany this season that I think GRRM handled better.
People promoting the Dorne stuff being so great in the book vs the show are leaving out the Meeren stuff being so much worse because part of that Dorne plot. It's a wash.
I think the show could have handled the not Dorne part of the Dorne plot fairly well and improved it a fair bit by giving those characters more life like they did with Bronn. But the two Dorne plots weren't inextricably linked, it would have been easy to do one without the other so using the excision of the "eh" one as an excuse for replacing the "fuck awesome" one with poison tits isn't really a sound argument to me.
People promoting the Dorne stuff being so great in the book vs the show are leaving out the Meeren stuff being so much worse because part of that Dorne plot. It's a wash.
Book Meereen has some interesting politicking going on, so no, it's not bad.
Are details relating to Jon's parentage spoilerworthy? Book readers have way more subtle detail, but I think they've been so clumsily beating people over the head with this stuff in the show that it's not an issue.
He thinks about it all the time. So book readers are reminded that he does indeed have a mystery mother, constantly. Nothing but some speculation about who she was though.
I had to read the Mereen stuff a couple times and also read a bunch of other people's interpretation of Mereen before I really got an appreciation for it. It isn't easy material to get attached to.
How the show chose to handle it, just thinking purely of what story beats they chose, wasn't particularly bad but it really suffers for being so rushed to get through all of it in a single season. Individual scenes were very poorly executed, there wasn't quite enough setup done for some character decisions, the Sons of the Harpy were leaned on way too much to be the driving force of plot development, the political considerations at play were almost totally glossed over, etc.
I had to read the Mereen stuff a couple times and also read a bunch of other people's interpretation of Mereen before I really got an appreciation for it. It isn't easy material to get attached to.
How the show chose to handle it, just thinking purely of what story beats they chose, wasn't particularly bad but it really suffers for being so rushed to get through all of it in a single season. Individual scenes were very poorly executed, there wasn't quite enough setup done for some character decisions, the Sons of the Harpy were leaned on way too much to be the driving force of plot development, the political considerations at play were almost totally glossed over, etc.
I think it's the show's fairly standard way of leaning on the obvious flashy bits (insurgency!) and missing the more subtle details that are at the heart of what that portion is all about.
The political considerations are most of the point because it's all about how it affects Dany.
I had to read the Mereen stuff a couple times and also read a bunch of other people's interpretation of Mereen before I really got an appreciation for it. It isn't easy material to get attached to.
How the show chose to handle it, just thinking purely of what story beats they chose, wasn't particularly bad but it really suffers for being so rushed to get through all of it in a single season. Individual scenes were very poorly executed, there wasn't quite enough setup done for some character decisions, the Sons of the Harpy were leaned on way too much to be the driving force of plot development, the political considerations at play were almost totally glossed over, etc.
I think it's the show's fairly standard way of leaning on the obvious flashy bits (insurgency!) and missing the more subtle details that are at the heart of what that portion is all about.
The political considerations are most of the point because it's all about how it affects Dany.
Yeah, I can see why they did what they did... they just didn't really have enough airtime even to deliver the cliff's notes version of Mereen that they went for.
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
What I found really surprising was just how tonally different the arena scene was between the show and the book. In one, it's a big triumphant moment. In the other, it's Dany's darker impulses intruding upon her noble compromises.
What I found really surprising was just how tonally different the arena scene was between the show and the book. In one, it's a big triumphant moment. In the other, it's Dany's darker impulses intruding upon her noble compromises.
I don't think it's really surprising but I don't think much of D&D's eye for anything beyond surface details of the books.
And for show folks who might be curious about the general gnashing of teeth by book readers at what happened with Stannis, here's the cliffs notes for the books with him:
D&D really seemed to dislike Stannis for some reason, and seemed to go out of their way to character assassinate him.
Some background info which I believe is described in the DVD extras - Stannis, as mentioned, kept Storm's End from being taken during the rebellion, and eventually also took Dragonmount. However, Viserys and Danerys had both gotten away before he took Dragonmount (in fact before it was launched), so Robert blamed him for that and gave Storm's End to their younger brother, giving him Dragonmount (the Targaryen's seat) instead. He always resented this, as he's a big stickler for rules and he should have gotten Storm's End as the elder of the two brothers. Furthermore, Robert was a bit of a dick to him on his wedding night, violating Stannis's bed with another woman, which eventually led to a bastard child of Robert's. A lot of his early motivations are due to feeling slighted his entire life, and now something is rightfully his, so damnit he's going to take it.
Anyway, early beats are mostly the same - introduced to him by burning the Seven (he basically doesn't care), although Stannis was actually the one who started the investigation into the parentage of Joffrey and the other kids - he and Jon Arryn were working together. Selyse is the true believer who follows Melisandre's words to a T. Anyway, when Stannis sets out, he goes to take his birthright - Storm's End - which is also where the bastard who was birthed on his wedding bed was kept, to use as something he could hold out as proof that the Lannister children look nothing like Robert. Renly turns back to attack Stannis since that's the seat of his power, shadow baby happens, Storm's End continues to hold out, and there's a second shadow baby to kill the Castellan of Storm's End, at which point they surrender and turn over the boy. In the show, Gendry is a stand-in for him, as after Blackwater, the same conflict over whether to burn him or not occurs. Worth noting that because of the Gendry change, Melisandre and Thoros of Myr have never met in the books.
Show continues in-line from there, Blackwater is a little difference in the mechanics of the trap, and there's a point where a noble is in charge of the ships instead of Davos and that's why they walk into the trap, but whatever.
Selyse is more active, ordering burnings of nobles while Stannis is away for not converting. This angers Stannis. Davos doesn't write to the Iron Bank, the Iron Bank comes to Stannis after Cersei informs them she doesn't intend to pay. Additionally, Melisandre never councils to go North in the books - she gave different advice, and it was only Davos who gave advice to go north, which Stannis listened to. He's a bit more of his own man, instead of a religious puppet.
Some northern houses had come to his cause for reasons which (for tertiary reasons) may involve events that could happen in future seasons, so we'll leave it at that.
Shireen, Selyse, and Melisandre were all left at Castle Black when Stannis marched south. Melisandre, at no point, asks Stannis to burn Shireen.
Some of the Northmen with Stannis are Karstarks, who are siding with the Boltons and acting as enemy troops within his own camps. The snowstorm keeps them stuck for days and the food is dwindling. When men are caught trying to steal food, some are burnt as an offering to the Lord of Light. This angers Stannis and he states there will be no burnings (keeping in mind this is a man who, while under siege in Storm's End, had eaten rats).
Stannis orders one of his men to leave and gather more sellswords over the narrow sea to support his claim, and if he should fall, to support his daughter's rightful claim to the throne.
Some nested quotes to get a feel for his character:
It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done after the Trident.
These pardoned lords would do well to reflect on that. Good men and true will fight for Joffrey, wrongly believing him the true king. A northman might even say the same of Robb Stark. But these lords who flocked to my brother’s banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are. Pardoned them, yes. Forgiven. But not forgotten.
I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men.
Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.
Your brothers will not like it, no more than your father's lords, but I mean to allow the wildlings through the Wall... those who will swear me their fealty, pledge to keep the king's peace and the king's laws, and take the Lord of Light as their god. Even the giants, if those great knees of theirs can bend. I will settle them on the Gift, once I have wrested it away from your new Lord Commander. When the cold winds rise, we shall live or die together. It is time we made alliance against our common foe.
Demons made of snow and ice and cold. The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters.
Half of my army is made up of nonbelievers. There will be no burnings. Pray harder.
In other items, the assault on Winterfell has not yet happened in the books, but numerical military odds are actually in Stannis's favor, not the Boltons' (food situation aside, obviously). Jon has received a letter ostensibly from Ramsay (although there are multiple in-world reasons to suspect it's actually from Ramsay) claiming that Stannis is dead. Readers do not know whether it is accurate or not.
Stannis orders Davos to leave and gather more sellswords over the narrow sea to support his claim, and if he should fall, to support his daughter's rightful claim to the throne.
Stannis orders Davos to leave and gather more sellswords over the narrow sea to support his claim, and if he should fall, to support his daughter's rightful claim to the throne.
Davos is actually on another quest.
Oh, whoops, sorry - you're right, that was someone else, wasn't it.
People promoting the Dorne stuff being so great in the book vs the show are leaving out the Meeren stuff being so much worse because part of that Dorne plot. It's a wash.
Nah. I liked the Meeren stuff and the show version is just basically the same thing, but sillier. (eg - Barristan's death and Unsullied mediocrity)
Also about the Unsullied sucking at keeping the peace in the city:
It makes a lot of sense. They're soldiers, not policemen.
But in the book Dany makes a policeforce out of Meereen citizens loyal to her. They wear masks to protect their identity and stuff.
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
What I found really surprising was just how tonally different the arena scene was between the show and the book. In one, it's a big triumphant moment. In the other, it's Dany's darker impulses intruding upon her noble compromises.
People promoting the Dorne stuff being so great in the book vs the show are leaving out the Meeren stuff being so much worse because part of that Dorne plot. It's a wash.
Nah. I liked the Meeren stuff and the show version is just basically the same thing, but sillier. (eg - Barristan's death and Unsullied mediocrity)
Also about the Unsullied sucking at keeping the peace in the city:
It makes a lot of sense. They're soldiers, not policemen.
But in the book Dany makes a policeforce out of Meereen citizens loyal to her. They wear masks to protect their identity and stuff.
I think the complaints mostly stem from a the best infantry in the world getting slaughtered by a bunch of guys with knives in open combat. Like, how the fuck.
People promoting the Dorne stuff being so great in the book vs the show are leaving out the Meeren stuff being so much worse because part of that Dorne plot. It's a wash.
Nah. I liked the Meeren stuff and the show version is just basically the same thing, but sillier. (eg - Barristan's death and Unsullied mediocrity)
Also about the Unsullied sucking at keeping the peace in the city:
It makes a lot of sense. They're soldiers, not policemen.
But in the book Dany makes a policeforce out of Meereen citizens loyal to her. They wear masks to protect their identity and stuff.
I think the complaints mostly stem from a the best infantry in the world getting slaughtered by a bunch of guys with knives in open combat. Like, how the fuck.
This is purely how it was shot. That pair of Unsullied that suddenly has like six guys around them out of a crowd? Absolutely fine.
The like dozen Unsullied challenged by guys with knives in an area where they could have easily formed a defensive line and being decimated? Not fine.
There are a bunch of these this season I'm unsure of who to blame for, directors, cinematographers, editors...just somebody.
Another example: Cersei being denied water as a form of torture would have been much more effective if the shot didn't include water dripping from her ceiling complete with water drop audio.
People promoting the Dorne stuff being so great in the book vs the show are leaving out the Meeren stuff being so much worse because part of that Dorne plot. It's a wash.
Nah. I liked the Meeren stuff and the show version is just basically the same thing, but sillier. (eg - Barristan's death and Unsullied mediocrity)
Also about the Unsullied sucking at keeping the peace in the city:
It makes a lot of sense. They're soldiers, not policemen.
But in the book Dany makes a policeforce out of Meereen citizens loyal to her. They wear masks to protect their identity and stuff.
I think the complaints mostly stem from a the best infantry in the world getting slaughtered by a bunch of guys with knives in open combat. Like, how the fuck.
This is purely how it was shot. That pair of Unsullied that suddenly has like six guys around them out of a crowd? Absolutely fine.
The like dozen Unsullied challenged by guys with knives in an area where they could have easily formed a defensive line and being decimated? Not fine.
There are a bunch of these this season I'm unsure of who to blame for, directors, cinematographers, editors...just somebody.
Another example: Cersei being denied water as a form of torture would have been much more effective if the shot didn't include water dripping from her ceiling complete with water drop audio.
Hell that still could have worked if there had been a quick shot of her desperately catching each individual drop while looking parched.
All of the action scenes, fighting and war scenes were pretty not great this season, with a few bits of hardhome being a notable exception.
I used to be bummed in earlier seasons that they skipped over the battles, now I wish they'd go back to that so I can pretend they were cooler in my head.
People promoting the Dorne stuff being so great in the book vs the show are leaving out the Meeren stuff being so much worse because part of that Dorne plot. It's a wash.
Nah. I liked the Meeren stuff and the show version is just basically the same thing, but sillier. (eg - Barristan's death and Unsullied mediocrity)
Also about the Unsullied sucking at keeping the peace in the city:
It makes a lot of sense. They're soldiers, not policemen.
But in the book Dany makes a policeforce out of Meereen citizens loyal to her. They wear masks to protect their identity and stuff.
I think the complaints mostly stem from a the best infantry in the world getting slaughtered by a bunch of guys with knives in open combat. Like, how the fuck.
Meereen = Iraq
Edit:
Yeah, what DA said above. The Unsullied are masters of formation combat, not counter-insurgency, just like the US early 2000s.
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It feels like we were generally fine with stuff like Tywin instead of Roose at Harrenhal, Blackwater changed for obvious budgetary reasons, Barristan not hiding his identity from Dany, and Arya killing Trant in place of a Night's Watch deserter. It's those changes for changes sake that alter the essence of a character like Stannis that irked quite a few of us.
That's fair enough and reasonable complaints.
I kind of wish they would've changed Ramsay into something not so insufferable, though.
Ramsay's surprisingly different in the show. I mean, he's a repulsive, vile character in the books as well, but... Well, a lot a stylistic changes have been made.
There's all manner of repulsive characters in the series, but none of them as cartoonishly stupid as Ramsay.
I remember reading it somewhere else, but if he wasn't an original character I would have no problem believing he was a Mary Sue from the minds of the show writers.
I don't think this is that far off from the truth. In the show he is introduced way earlier, and is shown way more often. I think the actor and character ended up being more popular than expected (to be fair, the dude is nailing the role) and they've rewarded him with more scenes. Stuff like that terrible attempted rescue he fights off while shirtless is a good example of stuff they added.
I almost want to say the majority of the scenes he has in the show are new, but I don't have anything to back that up and my book bias may be at fault. At the very least I see show and book Ramsey as two different characters since they are portrayed so differently. This wasn't really an issue until the Sansa stuff started to happen though. Show only stuff like the sausage scene were hits in the book thread. They just ended up pushing it a bit too far in season 5 IMO.
I am familiar with the actor who plays Ramsay from a british super hero show called Misfits.
Being familiar with his other excellent work, I am willing to bet Iwan Rheon is not hamming it up, he is playing Ramsay exactly like the script and director are asking him to, playing that character to the hilt - that hilt being a two-faced, conniving, sadistic serial killer in a position of rising power and influence.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
All of the action scenes, fighting and war scenes were pretty not great this season, with a few bits of hardhome being a notable exception.
I used to be bummed in earlier seasons that they skipped over the battles, now I wish they'd go back to that so I can pretend they were cooler in my head.
If there's one thing Star Wars has taught me, it's that it's better to not have a budget and work around it than to have a budget and not know to do with it.
It feels like we were generally fine with stuff like Tywin instead of Roose at Harrenhal, Blackwater changed for obvious budgetary reasons, Barristan not hiding his identity from Dany, and Arya killing Trant in place of a Night's Watch deserter. It's those changes for changes sake that alter the essence of a character like Stannis that irked quite a few of us.
That's fair enough and reasonable complaints.
I kind of wish they would've changed Ramsay into something not so insufferable, though.
Ramsay's surprisingly different in the show. I mean, he's a repulsive, vile character in the books as well, but... Well, a lot a stylistic changes have been made.
There's all manner of repulsive characters in the series, but none of them as cartoonishly stupid as Ramsay.
I remember reading it somewhere else, but if he wasn't an original character I would have no problem believing he was a Mary Sue from the minds of the show writers.
I don't think this is that far off from the truth. In the show he is introduced way earlier, and is shown way more often. I think the actor and character ended up being more popular than expected (to be fair, the dude is nailing the role) and they've rewarded him with more scenes. Stuff like that terrible attempted rescue he fights off while shirtless is a good example of stuff they added.
I almost want to say the majority of the scenes he has in the show are new, but I don't have anything to back that up and my book bias may be at fault. At the very least I see show and book Ramsey as two different characters since they are portrayed so differently. This wasn't really an issue until the Sansa stuff started to happen though. Show only stuff like the sausage scene were hits in the book thread. They just ended up pushing it a bit too far in season 5 IMO.
I am familiar with the actor who plays Ramsay from a british super hero show called Misfits.
Being familiar with his other excellent work, I am willing to bet Iwan Rheon is not hamming it up, he is playing Ramsay exactly like the script and director are asking him to, playing that character to the hilt - that hilt being a two-faced, conniving, sadistic serial killer in a position of rising power and influence.
Oh yes, the dude is awesome and he is playing his role amazingly well. I am a big Iwan Rheon fan. He is so good that he is getting rewarded for his skill and popularity with more screen time, not unlike the dude that plays Bronn.
And also not unlike Bronn is this extra character exposure is starting to feel a little wedged in. The actor/character is great, but the made up scenes they are putting him into are not and somewhat damage the overall story/plot.
Someone here earlier had a really good breakdown of Book Ramsay, and I just wanted to add on that Book Ramsay reminded me of archetypes of super entitled wealthy young WASPs who could get away with everything and abused the hell out of that power for their own specific thrills
In that sense, I appreciate the show's interpretation of Ramsay - loves to make a mockery of horrible things that happen to people (objects, really) beneath him. It's a big intersection of privilege and insecurity (stemming from his legitimized bastardry, which touches a bit on "new money" in real life), although it loses out on what the earlier poster pointed out was a fairly accurate exploration of the consequences of a Ted Bundy having a proper last name in a medieval world
Eddy on
"and the morning stars I have seen
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
It feels like we were generally fine with stuff like Tywin instead of Roose at Harrenhal, Blackwater changed for obvious budgetary reasons, Barristan not hiding his identity from Dany, and Arya killing Trant in place of a Night's Watch deserter. It's those changes for changes sake that alter the essence of a character like Stannis that irked quite a few of us.
That's fair enough and reasonable complaints.
I kind of wish they would've changed Ramsay into something not so insufferable, though.
Ramsay's surprisingly different in the show. I mean, he's a repulsive, vile character in the books as well, but... Well, a lot a stylistic changes have been made.
There's all manner of repulsive characters in the series, but none of them as cartoonishly stupid as Ramsay.
I remember reading it somewhere else, but if he wasn't an original character I would have no problem believing he was a Mary Sue from the minds of the show writers.
I don't think this is that far off from the truth. In the show he is introduced way earlier, and is shown way more often. I think the actor and character ended up being more popular than expected (to be fair, the dude is nailing the role) and they've rewarded him with more scenes. Stuff like that terrible attempted rescue he fights off while shirtless is a good example of stuff they added.
I almost want to say the majority of the scenes he has in the show are new, but I don't have anything to back that up and my book bias may be at fault. At the very least I see show and book Ramsey as two different characters since they are portrayed so differently. This wasn't really an issue until the Sansa stuff started to happen though. Show only stuff like the sausage scene were hits in the book thread. They just ended up pushing it a bit too far in season 5 IMO.
I am familiar with the actor who plays Ramsay from a british super hero show called Misfits.
Being familiar with his other excellent work, I am willing to bet Iwan Rheon is not hamming it up, he is playing Ramsay exactly like the script and director are asking him to, playing that character to the hilt - that hilt being a two-faced, conniving, sadistic serial killer in a position of rising power and influence.
Oh yes, the dude is awesome and he is playing his role amazingly well. I am a big Iwan Rheon fan. He is so good that he is getting rewarded for his skill and popularity with more screen time, not unlike the dude that plays Bronn.
And also not unlike Bronn is this extra character exposure is starting to feel a little wedged in. The actor/character is great, but the made up scenes they are putting him into are not and somewhat damage the overall story/plot.
Bronn's book storyline is way more Bronn then this season's silliness.
And for show folks who might be curious about the general gnashing of teeth by book readers at what happened with Stannis, here's the cliffs notes for the books with him:
D&D really seemed to dislike Stannis for some reason, and seemed to go out of their way to character assassinate him.
Some background info which I believe is described in the DVD extras - Stannis, as mentioned, kept Storm's End from being taken during the rebellion, and eventually also took Dragonmount. However, Viserys and Danerys had both gotten away before he took Dragonmount (in fact before it was launched), so Robert blamed him for that and gave Storm's End to their younger brother, giving him Dragonmount (the Targaryen's seat) instead. He always resented this, as he's a big stickler for rules and he should have gotten Storm's End as the elder of the two brothers. Furthermore, Robert was a bit of a dick to him on his wedding night, violating Stannis's bed with another woman, which eventually led to a bastard child of Robert's. A lot of his early motivations are due to feeling slighted his entire life, and now something is rightfully his, so damnit he's going to take it.
Anyway, early beats are mostly the same - introduced to him by burning the Seven (he basically doesn't care), although Stannis was actually the one who started the investigation into the parentage of Joffrey and the other kids - he and Jon Arryn were working together. Selyse is the true believer who follows Melisandre's words to a T. Anyway, when Stannis sets out, he goes to take his birthright - Storm's End - which is also where the bastard who was birthed on his wedding bed was kept, to use as something he could hold out as proof that the Lannister children look nothing like Robert. Renly turns back to attack Stannis since that's the seat of his power, shadow baby happens, Storm's End continues to hold out, and there's a second shadow baby to kill the Castellan of Storm's End, at which point they surrender and turn over the boy. In the show, Gendry is a stand-in for him, as after Blackwater, the same conflict over whether to burn him or not occurs. Worth noting that because of the Gendry change, Melisandre and Thoros of Myr have never met in the books.
Show continues in-line from there, Blackwater is a little difference in the mechanics of the trap, and there's a point where a noble is in charge of the ships instead of Davos and that's why they walk into the trap, but whatever.
Selyse is more active, ordering burnings of nobles while Stannis is away for not converting. This angers Stannis. Davos doesn't write to the Iron Bank, the Iron Bank comes to Stannis after Cersei informs them she doesn't intend to pay. Additionally, Melisandre never councils to go North in the books - she gave different advice, and it was only Davos who gave advice to go north, which Stannis listened to. He's a bit more of his own man, instead of a religious puppet.
Some northern houses had come to his cause for reasons which (for tertiary reasons) may involve events that could happen in future seasons, so we'll leave it at that.
Shireen, Selyse, and Melisandre were all left at Castle Black when Stannis marched south. Melisandre, at no point, asks Stannis to burn Shireen.
Some of the Northmen with Stannis are Karstarks, who are siding with the Boltons and acting as enemy troops within his own camps. The snowstorm keeps them stuck for days and the food is dwindling. When men are caught trying to steal food, some are burnt as an offering to the Lord of Light. This angers Stannis and he states there will be no burnings (keeping in mind this is a man who, while under siege in Storm's End, had eaten rats).
Stannis orders one of his men to leave and gather more sellswords over the narrow sea to support his claim, and if he should fall, to support his daughter's rightful claim to the throne.
Some nested quotes to get a feel for his character:
It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done after the Trident.
These pardoned lords would do well to reflect on that. Good men and true will fight for Joffrey, wrongly believing him the true king. A northman might even say the same of Robb Stark. But these lords who flocked to my brother’s banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are. Pardoned them, yes. Forgiven. But not forgotten.
I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men.
Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.
Your brothers will not like it, no more than your father's lords, but I mean to allow the wildlings through the Wall... those who will swear me their fealty, pledge to keep the king's peace and the king's laws, and take the Lord of Light as their god. Even the giants, if those great knees of theirs can bend. I will settle them on the Gift, once I have wrested it away from your new Lord Commander. When the cold winds rise, we shall live or die together. It is time we made alliance against our common foe.
Demons made of snow and ice and cold. The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters.
Half of my army is made up of nonbelievers. There will be no burnings. Pray harder.
In other items, the assault on Winterfell has not yet happened in the books, but numerical military odds are actually in Stannis's favor, not the Boltons' (food situation aside, obviously). Jon has received a letter ostensibly from Ramsay (although there are multiple in-world reasons to suspect it's actually from Ramsay) claiming that Stannis is dead. Readers do not know whether it is accurate or not.
I thought it was really cool how you pulled all those Stannis quotes together. I was never a big Stannis guy when reading the books, but I was def rooting for him against Ramsay. I think I like him a bit better now, just for reading those.
TBH though, the rest of what you cited really does not amount to "character assassination". It all looks like small petty stuff that barely matters. You even denote the unimportance of most of it in your write up.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
As far as Dany and Drogo, I'm fine with how the show framed it. I'm certainly fine with them cutting the part with her dropping deuces.
And for show folks who might be curious about the general gnashing of teeth by book readers at what happened with Stannis, here's the cliffs notes for the books with him:
D&D really seemed to dislike Stannis for some reason, and seemed to go out of their way to character assassinate him.
Some background info which I believe is described in the DVD extras - Stannis, as mentioned, kept Storm's End from being taken during the rebellion, and eventually also took Dragonmount. However, Viserys and Danerys had both gotten away before he took Dragonmount (in fact before it was launched), so Robert blamed him for that and gave Storm's End to their younger brother, giving him Dragonmount (the Targaryen's seat) instead. He always resented this, as he's a big stickler for rules and he should have gotten Storm's End as the elder of the two brothers. Furthermore, Robert was a bit of a dick to him on his wedding night, violating Stannis's bed with another woman, which eventually led to a bastard child of Robert's. A lot of his early motivations are due to feeling slighted his entire life, and now something is rightfully his, so damnit he's going to take it.
Anyway, early beats are mostly the same - introduced to him by burning the Seven (he basically doesn't care), although Stannis was actually the one who started the investigation into the parentage of Joffrey and the other kids - he and Jon Arryn were working together. Selyse is the true believer who follows Melisandre's words to a T. Anyway, when Stannis sets out, he goes to take his birthright - Storm's End - which is also where the bastard who was birthed on his wedding bed was kept, to use as something he could hold out as proof that the Lannister children look nothing like Robert. Renly turns back to attack Stannis since that's the seat of his power, shadow baby happens, Storm's End continues to hold out, and there's a second shadow baby to kill the Castellan of Storm's End, at which point they surrender and turn over the boy. In the show, Gendry is a stand-in for him, as after Blackwater, the same conflict over whether to burn him or not occurs. Worth noting that because of the Gendry change, Melisandre and Thoros of Myr have never met in the books.
Show continues in-line from there, Blackwater is a little difference in the mechanics of the trap, and there's a point where a noble is in charge of the ships instead of Davos and that's why they walk into the trap, but whatever.
Selyse is more active, ordering burnings of nobles while Stannis is away for not converting. This angers Stannis. Davos doesn't write to the Iron Bank, the Iron Bank comes to Stannis after Cersei informs them she doesn't intend to pay. Additionally, Melisandre never councils to go North in the books - she gave different advice, and it was only Davos who gave advice to go north, which Stannis listened to. He's a bit more of his own man, instead of a religious puppet.
Some northern houses had come to his cause for reasons which (for tertiary reasons) may involve events that could happen in future seasons, so we'll leave it at that.
Shireen, Selyse, and Melisandre were all left at Castle Black when Stannis marched south. Melisandre, at no point, asks Stannis to burn Shireen.
Some of the Northmen with Stannis are Karstarks, who are siding with the Boltons and acting as enemy troops within his own camps. The snowstorm keeps them stuck for days and the food is dwindling. When men are caught trying to steal food, some are burnt as an offering to the Lord of Light. This angers Stannis and he states there will be no burnings (keeping in mind this is a man who, while under siege in Storm's End, had eaten rats).
Stannis orders one of his men to leave and gather more sellswords over the narrow sea to support his claim, and if he should fall, to support his daughter's rightful claim to the throne.
Some nested quotes to get a feel for his character:
It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done after the Trident.
These pardoned lords would do well to reflect on that. Good men and true will fight for Joffrey, wrongly believing him the true king. A northman might even say the same of Robb Stark. But these lords who flocked to my brother’s banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are. Pardoned them, yes. Forgiven. But not forgotten.
I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men.
Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.
Your brothers will not like it, no more than your father's lords, but I mean to allow the wildlings through the Wall... those who will swear me their fealty, pledge to keep the king's peace and the king's laws, and take the Lord of Light as their god. Even the giants, if those great knees of theirs can bend. I will settle them on the Gift, once I have wrested it away from your new Lord Commander. When the cold winds rise, we shall live or die together. It is time we made alliance against our common foe.
Demons made of snow and ice and cold. The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters.
Half of my army is made up of nonbelievers. There will be no burnings. Pray harder.
In other items, the assault on Winterfell has not yet happened in the books, but numerical military odds are actually in Stannis's favor, not the Boltons' (food situation aside, obviously). Jon has received a letter ostensibly from Ramsay (although there are multiple in-world reasons to suspect it's actually from Ramsay) claiming that Stannis is dead. Readers do not know whether it is accurate or not.
I thought it was really cool how you pulled all those Stannis quotes together. I was never a big Stannis guy when reading the books, but I was def rooting for him against Ramsay. I think I like him a bit better now, just for reading those.
TBH though, the rest of what you cited really does not amount to "character assassination". It all looks like small petty stuff that barely matters. You even denote the unimportance of most of it in your write up.
They are small but they matter alot. They are what gives shading and nuance to his character. That's how you make a character interesting and three-dimensional, with little bits of character.
Posts
At this point everyone has the same general theories on both sides of the camp.
I think we can openly discuss the theories at this point, ESPECIALLY if things like the Tower of Joy DVD extras from the HBO show are in play.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Anything else?
We were robbed of an excellent conversation between Selmy and Tyrion that I have no idea what shape it would take.
Cynicism:
More book stuff to be in spoiler tags:
I'd tack on everything to do with
Nah. I liked the Meeren stuff and the show version is just basically the same thing, but sillier. (eg - Barristan's death and Unsullied mediocrity)
I need to reread Feast and Dance sometime. My memory on the specifics is a bit hazy, but yeah some of those show choices were rough. Even when they weren't large changes, just the way they chose to frame and film certain scenes seemed...poor.
<bell ring>
Shame
<bell ring>
Shame
Just to clarify... I am not a book snob. In fact, I think GRRM isn't really that great of a writer. The showrunners (D&D) were doing just fine (perhaps even a superb job) creating an adaptation of the books on the screen. Where they went off the rails was when they did not have exact source material to adapt and had to start "connecting the dots" themselves. Yes, they know where the plot is going, but they are driving a semi-truck through a field of radioactive barrels to get there, while GRRM's books are more of a nimble sports car that is dodging as many of the barrels as possible to get to the goal of the plot. I think the show runners are addicted to the GRRM "shock" death/rape/sex scene now, and using it way more often than needed. I also think they are just going to be joyful as gooses to be able to spoil the ending of the series, no matter how many character assassinations it takes them to get there.
The show without backing material is poorly written.
The show with backing material is a pretty, good adaptation of GRRM's books given the medium and limitations.
I disagree. They did some weird tonal stuff with Dany this season that I think GRRM handled better.
I think the show could have handled the not Dorne part of the Dorne plot fairly well and improved it a fair bit by giving those characters more life like they did with Bronn. But the two Dorne plots weren't inextricably linked, it would have been easy to do one without the other so using the excision of the "eh" one as an excuse for replacing the "fuck awesome" one with poison tits isn't really a sound argument to me.
Book Meereen has some interesting politicking going on, so no, it's not bad.
How the show chose to handle it, just thinking purely of what story beats they chose, wasn't particularly bad but it really suffers for being so rushed to get through all of it in a single season. Individual scenes were very poorly executed, there wasn't quite enough setup done for some character decisions, the Sons of the Harpy were leaned on way too much to be the driving force of plot development, the political considerations at play were almost totally glossed over, etc.
I think it's the show's fairly standard way of leaning on the obvious flashy bits (insurgency!) and missing the more subtle details that are at the heart of what that portion is all about.
The political considerations are most of the point because it's all about how it affects Dany.
Yeah, I can see why they did what they did... they just didn't really have enough airtime even to deliver the cliff's notes version of Mereen that they went for.
I don't think it's really surprising but I don't think much of D&D's eye for anything beyond surface details of the books.
Some background info which I believe is described in the DVD extras - Stannis, as mentioned, kept Storm's End from being taken during the rebellion, and eventually also took Dragonmount. However, Viserys and Danerys had both gotten away before he took Dragonmount (in fact before it was launched), so Robert blamed him for that and gave Storm's End to their younger brother, giving him Dragonmount (the Targaryen's seat) instead. He always resented this, as he's a big stickler for rules and he should have gotten Storm's End as the elder of the two brothers. Furthermore, Robert was a bit of a dick to him on his wedding night, violating Stannis's bed with another woman, which eventually led to a bastard child of Robert's. A lot of his early motivations are due to feeling slighted his entire life, and now something is rightfully his, so damnit he's going to take it.
Anyway, early beats are mostly the same - introduced to him by burning the Seven (he basically doesn't care), although Stannis was actually the one who started the investigation into the parentage of Joffrey and the other kids - he and Jon Arryn were working together. Selyse is the true believer who follows Melisandre's words to a T. Anyway, when Stannis sets out, he goes to take his birthright - Storm's End - which is also where the bastard who was birthed on his wedding bed was kept, to use as something he could hold out as proof that the Lannister children look nothing like Robert. Renly turns back to attack Stannis since that's the seat of his power, shadow baby happens, Storm's End continues to hold out, and there's a second shadow baby to kill the Castellan of Storm's End, at which point they surrender and turn over the boy. In the show, Gendry is a stand-in for him, as after Blackwater, the same conflict over whether to burn him or not occurs. Worth noting that because of the Gendry change, Melisandre and Thoros of Myr have never met in the books.
Show continues in-line from there, Blackwater is a little difference in the mechanics of the trap, and there's a point where a noble is in charge of the ships instead of Davos and that's why they walk into the trap, but whatever.
Selyse is more active, ordering burnings of nobles while Stannis is away for not converting. This angers Stannis. Davos doesn't write to the Iron Bank, the Iron Bank comes to Stannis after Cersei informs them she doesn't intend to pay. Additionally, Melisandre never councils to go North in the books - she gave different advice, and it was only Davos who gave advice to go north, which Stannis listened to. He's a bit more of his own man, instead of a religious puppet.
Some northern houses had come to his cause for reasons which (for tertiary reasons) may involve events that could happen in future seasons, so we'll leave it at that.
Shireen, Selyse, and Melisandre were all left at Castle Black when Stannis marched south. Melisandre, at no point, asks Stannis to burn Shireen.
Some of the Northmen with Stannis are Karstarks, who are siding with the Boltons and acting as enemy troops within his own camps. The snowstorm keeps them stuck for days and the food is dwindling. When men are caught trying to steal food, some are burnt as an offering to the Lord of Light. This angers Stannis and he states there will be no burnings (keeping in mind this is a man who, while under siege in Storm's End, had eaten rats).
Stannis orders one of his men to leave and gather more sellswords over the narrow sea to support his claim, and if he should fall, to support his daughter's rightful claim to the throne.
Some nested quotes to get a feel for his character:
In other items, the assault on Winterfell has not yet happened in the books, but numerical military odds are actually in Stannis's favor, not the Boltons' (food situation aside, obviously). Jon has received a letter ostensibly from Ramsay (although there are multiple in-world reasons to suspect it's actually from Ramsay) claiming that Stannis is dead. Readers do not know whether it is accurate or not.
Oh, whoops, sorry - you're right, that was someone else, wasn't it.
Editing.
Also about the Unsullied sucking at keeping the peace in the city:
But in the book Dany makes a policeforce out of Meereen citizens loyal to her. They wear masks to protect their identity and stuff.
This is how I put it in the show thread:
I think the complaints mostly stem from a the best infantry in the world getting slaughtered by a bunch of guys with knives in open combat. Like, how the fuck.
This is purely how it was shot. That pair of Unsullied that suddenly has like six guys around them out of a crowd? Absolutely fine.
The like dozen Unsullied challenged by guys with knives in an area where they could have easily formed a defensive line and being decimated? Not fine.
There are a bunch of these this season I'm unsure of who to blame for, directors, cinematographers, editors...just somebody.
Another example: Cersei being denied water as a form of torture would have been much more effective if the shot didn't include water dripping from her ceiling complete with water drop audio.
Hell that still could have worked if there had been a quick shot of her desperately catching each individual drop while looking parched.
I used to be bummed in earlier seasons that they skipped over the battles, now I wish they'd go back to that so I can pretend they were cooler in my head.
Meereen = Iraq
Edit:
Yeah, what DA said above. The Unsullied are masters of formation combat, not counter-insurgency, just like the US early 2000s.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
I am familiar with the actor who plays Ramsay from a british super hero show called Misfits.
Being familiar with his other excellent work, I am willing to bet Iwan Rheon is not hamming it up, he is playing Ramsay exactly like the script and director are asking him to, playing that character to the hilt - that hilt being a two-faced, conniving, sadistic serial killer in a position of rising power and influence.
If there's one thing Star Wars has taught me, it's that it's better to not have a budget and work around it than to have a budget and not know to do with it.
Oh yes, the dude is awesome and he is playing his role amazingly well. I am a big Iwan Rheon fan. He is so good that he is getting rewarded for his skill and popularity with more screen time, not unlike the dude that plays Bronn.
And also not unlike Bronn is this extra character exposure is starting to feel a little wedged in. The actor/character is great, but the made up scenes they are putting him into are not and somewhat damage the overall story/plot.
In that sense, I appreciate the show's interpretation of Ramsay - loves to make a mockery of horrible things that happen to people (objects, really) beneath him. It's a big intersection of privilege and insecurity (stemming from his legitimized bastardry, which touches a bit on "new money" in real life), although it loses out on what the earlier poster pointed out was a fairly accurate exploration of the consequences of a Ted Bundy having a proper last name in a medieval world
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
Bronn's book storyline is way more Bronn then this season's silliness.
Jaime joining the BWB anyone?! I'm 1000% down
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
I thought it was really cool how you pulled all those Stannis quotes together. I was never a big Stannis guy when reading the books, but I was def rooting for him against Ramsay. I think I like him a bit better now, just for reading those.
TBH though, the rest of what you cited really does not amount to "character assassination". It all looks like small petty stuff that barely matters. You even denote the unimportance of most of it in your write up.
They are small but they matter alot. They are what gives shading and nuance to his character. That's how you make a character interesting and three-dimensional, with little bits of character.