I Win Swordfightsall the traits of greatnessstarlight at my feetRegistered Userregular
i totally agreed with hullis and tal when they respectively got kicked but they were clearly being antagonistic past a forgivable point and i wasn't surprised when they got kicked
Not sure if this has been asked (33 pages) so apologies for the repeat question if so.
Do you see any issue with the LGBT and connected threads at the moment? Personally, and I know a few people have raised this, at the moment it feels incredibly hostile to anyone who isn't a select couple of forumers making pronouncements and that anyone with views against the mainstream is dogpiled and accused of arguing in bad faith or even of having views so offensive they should not be expressable.
Gary was a very different thing and 100% me being a shithead.
I'm not saying there aren't legitimate criticisms to be made against the thread, but when you say it was made in bad faith it implied I had some kind of ulterior motive to chase the anime-lovers from the forum like a jock St. Patrick.
So it's okay for a mod to do something offensive, as long as it's funny?
In almost any cases someone is being a shit and gets shit tossed back their way, the response is "why didn't you use the report button? Now we have to punish both parties involved." Is it acceptable for a mod to give someone shit, free from repercussions?
I'm actually in the camp of less transparency, in regards to discipline. Getting detention right in front of the whole class is where the worst kind of gossip comes from. Encourage dialogue between posters and mods, just not publically.
That joke anime thread last year caused a few forumers I really like to leave the forums (notably, MikeLL and RFilyaw)
This is incorrect, but people keep posting it as if it were true.
I mean, they've come back from time to time, but feelings were hurt, and even if I've forgiven y'all for it, I'm still a bit sour about the honeypot thing and how the joke got pushed a bit too far
I agree with your assessment, and don't want anything like that happening again.
Tube, you're in a desert, walking along, when all of a sudden you look down and see a tortoise. It's crawling toward you. You reach down and flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over. But it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping. Why is that, Tube?
I can't remember ever being surprised upon seeing a user kicked from a thread (discounting joke kicks). Like, this is not a grand mystery, shrouded in arcane smoke and mirrors.
The only time I'm surprised is seeing users essentially perma-kicked from threads. Though this is mostly in G&T and certain game/franchise threads where a some people are not welcome anymore and the mods enact the kick in the first page of a new thread.
Those people had pull a lot of shit to be worth that effort. That is not done lightly, because it requires special effort from us.
Based on a brief conversation Pony and I had last night.
Would you consider having some rules regarding CW (content warnings), when it comes to topics that might be traumatic for some folk? Like asking for spoilers when sensitive topics come up? Folk are usually pretty good about it, but some folk just aren't used to working with that sort of accommodation.
This is a complicated question, but the short answer is no. We have to manage our expectations a lot of the time, and anything that leads to a person thinking "this is a 100% safe space where I will not read about a sensitive topic" is going to lead to an unrealistic expectation on their part and a higher possibility of a traumatic experience. Members may read content that they consider traumatising, we can't guard against that without 100% curation. I don't want to promise anything that I can't deliver.
It's something that's on my radar, and I'm going to keep thinking about how we can improve the situation. I can't promise a quick solution
I'm actually in the camp of less transparency, in regards to discipline. Getting detention right in front of the whole class is where the worst kind of gossip comes from. Encourage dialogue between posters and mods, just not publically.
yes, this exactly
the only thing is that a few users have expressed concerns about whether they'd be able to have a productive dialogue with the moderation team in private, which speaks to a larger systemic problem
asking a sincere question is not passive aggressive, nor rude.
i do not see a difference, at all, between "i do not like these posts, so i am ignoring them" and "i do not like these posts, so i am kicking from the thread". if you are philosophically opposed to one, you have to be to the other. they are both just ways to end any discourse with the least amount of thought.
now, i will be rude and regular aggressive at the conclusion of this post, because when you mentioned having a discussion about moderation, i was hoping it would be a sincere discussion, not a terrible AMA where you get to ignore questions you don't like.
How is this acceptable?
I was absolutely trying to be humorous and felt your points were being addressed by Tube. If I added to an air of bullying, my apologies to you and anyone else that felt silenced.
hear that you have an honest, strong feeling about the way kicks are handled. In that specific example that you keep bringing up you feel like a warning would've sufficed. You feel like a thread kick is far more punitive than a simple warning. I feel like A Duck and Tube have listened to, and addressed those grievances. Maybe the answers weren't to your liking but they were honest, well reasoned and discussed further by other folks.
At this point you're stomping into the room demanding people listen to you without doing any listening yourself.
I'm actually in the camp of less transparency, in regards to discipline. Getting detention right in front of the whole class is where the worst kind of gossip comes from. Encourage dialogue between posters and mods, just not publically.
yes, this exactly
the only thing is that a few users have expressed concerns about whether they'd be able to have a productive dialogue with the moderation team in private, which speaks to a larger systemic problem
Fair enough, but the productivity of dialogue between people on two levels of authority tends to be gauged by 'did the mod change their mind?' so that kind of premise is extremely hard to satisfy.
People who go to court to fight a ticket and lose, will very rarely consider the time spent in the court room 'productive' even if it leads to them being able to have an honest and open dialogue about why they got the ticket in the first place.
Tube, since we still have the indy game forum, I thought I'd ask: How are forum regulars treated if they launch a game title? Do they get a little more slack talking about it around the joint or should they still be confined to that sub forum?
Because you were being a dickbag, and moderators are allowed to point that out. It's part of our moderation policy. I'm not interested in any policy that causes you to think the way you have been behaving throughout this thread is acceptable. It isn't. The more you post, the less interested I am in creating the kind of community you would enjoy.
Would it be okay if I ask people to be sensitive to PTSD and other trauma related accommodations in the next trans thread? There's a definite overlap between those groups.
It's not something I can enforce (and I will use the report button if I think someone is being callous), but maybe putting it into folks' heads might prevent a few conflicts. I'm assuming most folk aren't wandering into the trans thread in bad faith.
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
Tube, I find it fascinating that you've written on the subject of community building. Do you have a link handy?
Thanks for all your work for these forums. They've been a nice place to inhabit these past 8 years.
For some reason anytime people "feel they're not able to have a productive dialogue with the moderaton team" is when they're not getting what -they- want.
edit: happening as we speak.
bwanie on
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The GeekOh-Two Crew, OmeganautRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Are you coming to PAX this year?
BLM - ACAB
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Caulk Bite 6One of the multitude of Dans infesting this placeRegistered Userregular
Not sure if this has been asked (33 pages) so apologies for the repeat question if so.
Do you see any issue with the LGBT and connected threads at the moment? Personally, and I know a few people have raised this, at the moment it feels incredibly hostile to anyone who isn't a select couple of forumers making pronouncements and that anyone with views against the mainstream is dogpiled and accused of arguing in bad faith or even of having views so offensive they should not be expressable.
It's on our radar, and was the subject of discussion in the most recent thread. I can recall not being too thrilled with your behaviour in various threads along those lines though, so I'm not sure our views on an acceptable solution are going to align.
asking a sincere question is not passive aggressive, nor rude.
i do not see a difference, at all, between "i do not like these posts, so i am ignoring them" and "i do not like these posts, so i am kicking from the thread". if you are philosophically opposed to one, you have to be to the other. they are both just ways to end any discourse with the least amount of thought.
now, i will be rude and regular aggressive at the conclusion of this post, because when you mentioned having a discussion about moderation, i was hoping it would be a sincere discussion, not a terrible AMA where you get to ignore questions you don't like.
How is this acceptable?
I get the feeling that you want the forums to be better, and that's awesome. However, and I apologize for this, you are being a bit of sealion (and I hate to use that term). It feels like you are dragging your own personal crusade into this thread, which is drowning out other conversations. Politely persistent and obstinate can be just as detrimental to discourse as being rudely persistent and obstinate. You also implied that the rest of us are engaging this thread like "a terrible AMA", which seems like a backhanded insult. Sure, sure, you can say that "I was addressing the mods, not the rest of the forum goers", but the rest of us ARE reading this shit.
When I am passionate about things on these forums (like I'm passionate about Monster Hunter, for example... you can check out some of my lengthy posts in the Monster Hunter threads!), I tend to be a bit wordy and address the group as if we are in a private conversation rather than the soapbox that a forum is. You FEEL like you are making a sincere argument to a single person (or group), but it needs to allow other people to have their say. As you have recognized, many people here have the opposite point of view and think that "kicks" are both an effective tool and/or justified or both. It's more like a big party, not a panel discussion, despite the use of the word "forums" in the URL up there.
I mean this is aside from the irony in complaining about the picture that says "Look at me!", becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't think that you fit the bill, but it is a little funny.
I'm actually in the camp of less transparency, in regards to discipline. Getting detention right in front of the whole class is where the worst kind of gossip comes from. Encourage dialogue between posters and mods, just not publically.
yes, this exactly
the only thing is that a few users have expressed concerns about whether they'd be able to have a productive dialogue with the moderation team in private, which speaks to a larger systemic problem
Ultimately, I think there ought to be some degree of checks and / or balances (besides just Tube) regarding moderation decisions; if those decisions aren't derived publicly (and thus the back-and-forth over complicated decisions made clear), then there should be another way for the community to assess the validity / value of moderation behaviors. I don't know that there's an easy answer to that issue but I think it is having a negative effect on attitudes toward moderation and moderators.
I'm actually in the camp of less transparency, in regards to discipline. Getting detention right in front of the whole class is where the worst kind of gossip comes from. Encourage dialogue between posters and mods, just not publically.
yes, this exactly
the only thing is that a few users have expressed concerns about whether they'd be able to have a productive dialogue with the moderation team in private, which speaks to a larger systemic problem
I said as much in the mod forum but I think that is a perception problem rather than an actual problem and it'd definitely on the radar.
Would it be okay if I ask people to be sensitive to PTSD and other trauma related accommodations in the next trans thread? There's a definite overlap between those groups.
It's not something I can enforce (and I will use the report button if I think someone is being callous), but maybe putting it into folks' heads might prevent a few conflicts. I'm assuming most folk aren't wandering into the trans thread in bad faith.
Absolutely. I think it's much more realistic for us to have assigned safer spaces within the community. "Posting in bad faith" is something I'm very much on the lookout for in those threads.
I'm actually in the camp of less transparency, in regards to discipline. Getting detention right in front of the whole class is where the worst kind of gossip comes from. Encourage dialogue between posters and mods, just not publically.
yes, this exactly
the only thing is that a few users have expressed concerns about whether they'd be able to have a productive dialogue with the moderation team in private, which speaks to a larger systemic problem
Ultimately, I think there ought to be some degree of checks and / or balances (besides just Tube) regarding moderation decisions; if those decisions aren't derived publicly (and thus the back-and-forth over complicated decisions made clear), then there should be another way for the community to assess the validity / value of moderation behaviors. I don't know that there's an easy answer to that issue but I think it is having a negative effect on attitudes toward moderation and moderators.
I'm afraid this is a matter of philosophical disagreement between the two of us and I'm not going to be able to offer you a solution that you'd find satisfactory.
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The GeekOh-Two Crew, OmeganautRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Which forumer who has left voluntarily would you like to come back to be part of the community again?
I'm actually in the camp of less transparency, in regards to discipline. Getting detention right in front of the whole class is where the worst kind of gossip comes from. Encourage dialogue between posters and mods, just not publically.
yes, this exactly
the only thing is that a few users have expressed concerns about whether they'd be able to have a productive dialogue with the moderation team in private, which speaks to a larger systemic problem
Ultimately, I think there ought to be some degree of checks and / or balances (besides just Tube) regarding moderation decisions; if those decisions aren't derived publicly (and thus the back-and-forth over complicated decisions made clear), then there should be another way for the community to assess the validity / value of moderation behaviors. I don't know that there's an easy answer to that issue but I think it is having a negative effect on attitudes toward moderation and moderators.
I'm afraid this is a matter of philosophical disagreement between the two of us and I'm not going to be able to offer you a solution that you'd find satisfactory.
I don't think awesoming this really conveys the tone I want here
Tube that's a great response
I appreciate you admitting you can't give everything everyone wants but being super cordial about it
Gary was a very different thing and 100% me being a shithead.
I'm not saying there aren't legitimate criticisms to be made against the thread, but when you say it was made in bad faith it implied I had some kind of ulterior motive to chase the anime-lovers from the forum like a jock St. Patrick.
Eh, I think both you and I have alright points here. Tube's comment above was a good final word but I had this in drafts and accidentally posted it. So long as a lesson's been learned here, and we're moving in a good direction
Tube have you ever considered removing the BBcode link above the post reply button on the mobile site? I hit it all the time.
I'd been meaning to create a whole write-up of my thoughts on the mobile site because it was a huge part of how I access the forums, but now I've ditched my smartphone so I don't have direct access
the BBCode link and a few other things could certainly be spaced out a little better for usability, and profile pages are a bit funky
BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
I can't speak to this forum, but from another forum I used to moderate where we had very idealistic transparency, the result was that any mod decision against certain individuals resulted in an excess of extra work having to show to them, and all their friends, that we were justified in the action taken.
So I can totally understand the opacity and the "benevolent tyranny" here as a means to limit just how much of a fuss decisions can make.
The worst case scenario when contacting moderators, I've found, is deaf ears (blind eyes?)
like you're just ignored and not responded to
that has happened to me on more than one occasion, where I've contacted a moderator over getting kicked from a thread or an infraction or something and had them just straight up refuse to respond or engage me
I wouldn't consider that bullying, per se
It's not especially helpful
but it's also not really their obligation? like they don't owe me an explanation or engagement or something
it would've been nice, but whatever
that's sort of the worst that's happened, just being ignored
I can't conclusively say that this is what happened to you, but sometimes I just straight up don't see PMs for days
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That is me
I believe @pony once referred to me a milquetoast
Good ol bland danny
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no, gary left because he was harassed by mods into leaving.
Do you see any issue with the LGBT and connected threads at the moment? Personally, and I know a few people have raised this, at the moment it feels incredibly hostile to anyone who isn't a select couple of forumers making pronouncements and that anyone with views against the mainstream is dogpiled and accused of arguing in bad faith or even of having views so offensive they should not be expressable.
I'm not saying there aren't legitimate criticisms to be made against the thread, but when you say it was made in bad faith it implied I had some kind of ulterior motive to chase the anime-lovers from the forum like a jock St. Patrick.
So it's okay for a mod to do something offensive, as long as it's funny?
In almost any cases someone is being a shit and gets shit tossed back their way, the response is "why didn't you use the report button? Now we have to punish both parties involved." Is it acceptable for a mod to give someone shit, free from repercussions?
Wait, so i,m gary?
I agree with your assessment, and don't want anything like that happening again.
He knows what he did.
Duck.
Those people had pull a lot of shit to be worth that effort. That is not done lightly, because it requires special effort from us.
This isn't something I'm interested in reading a public defence of. I made my opinion on it pretty clear, privately, at the time.
This is a complicated question, but the short answer is no. We have to manage our expectations a lot of the time, and anything that leads to a person thinking "this is a 100% safe space where I will not read about a sensitive topic" is going to lead to an unrealistic expectation on their part and a higher possibility of a traumatic experience. Members may read content that they consider traumatising, we can't guard against that without 100% curation. I don't want to promise anything that I can't deliver.
It's something that's on my radar, and I'm going to keep thinking about how we can improve the situation. I can't promise a quick solution
yes, this exactly
the only thing is that a few users have expressed concerns about whether they'd be able to have a productive dialogue with the moderation team in private, which speaks to a larger systemic problem
I was absolutely trying to be humorous and felt your points were being addressed by Tube. If I added to an air of bullying, my apologies to you and anyone else that felt silenced.
hear that you have an honest, strong feeling about the way kicks are handled. In that specific example that you keep bringing up you feel like a warning would've sufficed. You feel like a thread kick is far more punitive than a simple warning. I feel like A Duck and Tube have listened to, and addressed those grievances. Maybe the answers weren't to your liking but they were honest, well reasoned and discussed further by other folks.
At this point you're stomping into the room demanding people listen to you without doing any listening yourself.
i thought we were pals
Fair enough, but the productivity of dialogue between people on two levels of authority tends to be gauged by 'did the mod change their mind?' so that kind of premise is extremely hard to satisfy.
People who go to court to fight a ticket and lose, will very rarely consider the time spent in the court room 'productive' even if it leads to them being able to have an honest and open dialogue about why they got the ticket in the first place.
No special treatment.
Because you were being a dickbag, and moderators are allowed to point that out. It's part of our moderation policy. I'm not interested in any policy that causes you to think the way you have been behaving throughout this thread is acceptable. It isn't. The more you post, the less interested I am in creating the kind of community you would enjoy.
It's not something I can enforce (and I will use the report button if I think someone is being callous), but maybe putting it into folks' heads might prevent a few conflicts. I'm assuming most folk aren't wandering into the trans thread in bad faith.
Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
Thanks for all your work for these forums. They've been a nice place to inhabit these past 8 years.
edit: happening as we speak.
While myself would find it super weird calling you anything but Matt, I've kind of gotten used to people calling you pony, irl
It's on our radar, and was the subject of discussion in the most recent thread. I can recall not being too thrilled with your behaviour in various threads along those lines though, so I'm not sure our views on an acceptable solution are going to align.
I think he's talking about these:
http://blog.vanillaforums.com/author/patrick/
When I am passionate about things on these forums (like I'm passionate about Monster Hunter, for example... you can check out some of my lengthy posts in the Monster Hunter threads!), I tend to be a bit wordy and address the group as if we are in a private conversation rather than the soapbox that a forum is. You FEEL like you are making a sincere argument to a single person (or group), but it needs to allow other people to have their say. As you have recognized, many people here have the opposite point of view and think that "kicks" are both an effective tool and/or justified or both. It's more like a big party, not a panel discussion, despite the use of the word "forums" in the URL up there.
I mean this is aside from the irony in complaining about the picture that says "Look at me!", becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Ultimately, I think there ought to be some degree of checks and / or balances (besides just Tube) regarding moderation decisions; if those decisions aren't derived publicly (and thus the back-and-forth over complicated decisions made clear), then there should be another way for the community to assess the validity / value of moderation behaviors. I don't know that there's an easy answer to that issue but I think it is having a negative effect on attitudes toward moderation and moderators.
Like, every time.
EVERY time.
Even if we ever did get one it would have to be moderated 24/7 and policed with an Iron Fist in order to keep it SOMEWHAT useable.
There is just not enough people who aren't goddamn creepy about anime.
Absolutely. I think it's much more realistic for us to have assigned safer spaces within the community. "Posting in bad faith" is something I'm very much on the lookout for in those threads.
Everything I write is on the Vanilla blog. A lot of it is sales based though, so you'd need to find the most appropriate content for you.
Barring incidents.
I'm afraid this is a matter of philosophical disagreement between the two of us and I'm not going to be able to offer you a solution that you'd find satisfactory.
I don't think awesoming this really conveys the tone I want here
Tube that's a great response
I appreciate you admitting you can't give everything everyone wants but being super cordial about it
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
Eh, I think both you and I have alright points here. Tube's comment above was a good final word but I had this in drafts and accidentally posted it. So long as a lesson's been learned here, and we're moving in a good direction
I'd been meaning to create a whole write-up of my thoughts on the mobile site because it was a huge part of how I access the forums, but now I've ditched my smartphone so I don't have direct access
the BBCode link and a few other things could certainly be spaced out a little better for usability, and profile pages are a bit funky
So I can totally understand the opacity and the "benevolent tyranny" here as a means to limit just how much of a fuss decisions can make.
I can't conclusively say that this is what happened to you, but sometimes I just straight up don't see PMs for days
Aw shucks