PAX Badges Cancelled

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  • Lobster70Lobster70 Registered User regular
    @hideyoshikaze I said that because they already told me they couldn't reinstate my purchase, and I had instead asked to at least know why I was flagged. Yet they were still repeating that they couldn't reinstate. Unlike the other posts here, there are no other purchases from my address, email, IP, or CC. I'm a father of three living in the suburbs. I cannot fathom what could have caused my purchase to be questioned. I bought two passes in a previous year, now four, but I can't believe there aren't other people who buy more or less year to year. I could be bringing all three of my sons (and that was one possibility that I had considered at one point.) It's not like I bought 16 passes, although that would have been within the limits.

    As for uploading image-based proof, I am a 5-hour drive from a friend's house north of Seattle, so I don't have airfare or hotel. Our whole group (we've been on XBL for 10+ years and typically play Sunday nights) joins up there and we go to PAX together and also eat our way through the Seattle area. (Cafe Campagne for breakfast, then Paseo, here we come!) I bought Saturday, another guy bought Sunday. We definitely have real people for every pass and in fact had to turn some friends away because we didn't have enough. So I'm not out the travel costs, but two of my friends do have travel arrangements (airfare) since they're coming from farther away.

    If there is a way to prove my integrity with regard to my PAX purchase, I'll happily do it. I really do go every year. I can post photos from past years, tell stories about hearing Wil Wheaton keynote (I was two seats from MC Frontalot who was planted in the audience and didn't realize it), going to Maj Nelson's talk, playing Brink and thinking it was gonna be so awesome (oh well), helping my friend cosplay as an Mass Effect character last year...what would it take?

    This whole thing is borderline comical, if it weren't so frustrating. Everyone in my group is a respected professional in his field, so being accused of cheating or scalping is really strange and if I'm honest, irritating. I don't have any idea what PAX passes are resold for, but I doubt it would be worth my time and effort. I just wanted to go to PAX the same as the past five years. Why must it be so difficult?

    adias.angelcdragon39
  • hideyoshikazehideyoshikaze Registered User regular
    @Lobster70 Feel free to upload some pictures on here then.
    I just want to have some proof, so that I'm not helping a person who can make up the best story in the world, but actually be in it for the money instead of the experience.

    Maybe send a picture of you with the name Lobster70 in a PM, with the proof laid on a table or you holding it and it shows you there at PAX or something.

  • YoungFreyYoungFrey Registered User regular
    Lobster70 wrote: »
    It seems like they've started ignoring messages. I've just about given up hope that they'll have a remediation process for those of us who were improperly flagged and are willing to prove it (or at least show up in person with a person for every badge.) Here's my last exchange from Friday, after I asked to have my case escalated to a manager:
    Unfortunately that is our policy. We will not be able to reinstate your order. Sorry.

    Thanks,

    Customer Service

    ME:
    I'm no longer asking for reinstatement. I need to understand the reason why my purchase was flagged so I can trust your system enough to buy again in the future.
    Please escalate this to the appropriate person with the authority to give me details. I truly believe this was an error or possible data breach.

    Response from PAX Questions (RX):
    Unfortunately that is not information that we can provide.

    Thanks,

    Customer Service

    Since the response doesn't match my message (I wasn't asking for info, I was asking for escalation) I suspect this is a call center arrangement and getting anything beyond that level is impossible. In other words, no escalation process exists at this time.

    I responded back that the answer was unacceptable and repeated that I want it escalated to a manager. Not a peep over the weekend or today, so I'm really starting to think this is case of not caring that they're alienating a small percentage of PAX fans with the broken flagging system.
    You were asking an implied question. "I need to understand the reason why my purchase was flagged so I can trust your system enough to buy again in the future." is asking "how does your system work?". And that is the kind of detail they really can't provide. The more granularity they give on their criteria, the easier it will be for resellers to game the system next time.

  • adias.angeladias.angel Tech-Savvy Wife Kalamazoo, MIRegistered User regular
    YoungFrey wrote: »
    Lobster70 wrote: »
    It seems like they've started ignoring messages. I've just about given up hope that they'll have a remediation process for those of us who were improperly flagged and are willing to prove it (or at least show up in person with a person for every badge.) Here's my last exchange from Friday, after I asked to have my case escalated to a manager:
    Unfortunately that is our policy. We will not be able to reinstate your order. Sorry.

    Thanks,

    Customer Service

    ME:
    I'm no longer asking for reinstatement. I need to understand the reason why my purchase was flagged so I can trust your system enough to buy again in the future.
    Please escalate this to the appropriate person with the authority to give me details. I truly believe this was an error or possible data breach.

    Response from PAX Questions (RX):
    Unfortunately that is not information that we can provide.

    Thanks,

    Customer Service

    Since the response doesn't match my message (I wasn't asking for info, I was asking for escalation) I suspect this is a call center arrangement and getting anything beyond that level is impossible. In other words, no escalation process exists at this time.

    I responded back that the answer was unacceptable and repeated that I want it escalated to a manager. Not a peep over the weekend or today, so I'm really starting to think this is case of not caring that they're alienating a small percentage of PAX fans with the broken flagging system.
    You were asking an implied question. "I need to understand the reason why my purchase was flagged so I can trust your system enough to buy again in the future." is asking "how does your system work?". And that is the kind of detail they really can't provide. The more granularity they give on their criteria, the easier it will be for resellers to game the system next time.

    They should still need to provide a reason why. Dup addresses, bad credit card, etc. If a system randomly cancels orders without explanation that isn't acceptable.

    It is making me question if I want to take the chance next year of getting passes as once I book flights I am already out $1200-$1400 alone for that (non-refundable). The rules should be simple, straight forward and obvious to anyone ordering what is allowed and whats not. I should be able to trust PA and at this point my trust is wavering.

    Prime '12, '13, '14, '15, '19 .. East '12
    jamsyarbotsLazorzLobster70embraceternity
  • PacketdancerPacketdancer SeattleRegistered User regular
    I got my tickets back!

    I was able to reinstate my order after they were completely canceled.
    Just make sure you're persistent and show proof!

    For what it's worth, mine were reinstated as well. So they definitely are trying to clear the issue up when the cancellations are shown to be a mistake rather than scalping.

    hideyoshikazeClix
  • hideyoshikazehideyoshikaze Registered User regular
    edited June 2015
    They said over a thousand people were affected by the cancellations. Most were scalpers though.

    Anyways I helped a couple of people that showed pretty hard core proof and gave them the person to contact. Hopefully they post that they got reinstated as well = )

    hideyoshikaze on
  • PunkJrPunkJr Decepticon Infiltrator Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    SO... What happens with all these reclaimed passes? <laugh> Will those of us who missed out get a chance to snag some?

    daaeZs9.png
    PunkJr
    Pirate, Stormtrooper, Decepticon
    Yes, my middle name really is MEGATRON
    Former Ravenclaw Death Eaters Head of House
  • KeroanKeroan Chicago, IllinoisRegistered User regular
    PunkJr wrote: »
    SO... What happens with all these reclaimed passes? <laugh> Will those of us who missed out get a chance to snag some?


    Lazorz wrote: »
    Kirby4Life wrote: »
    So... Does this mean there will be a 2nd run on passes or they just gonna delete the extra passes from the system??
    Yeah, there have been reclaimed badge sales in the past around this time (June/July), so I'd assume they're doing it again this year. Keep your eyes on their Twitter if you're trying to purchase from this wave, since the reclaimed badges go fast.

    PunkJrIncreaseBlue
  • hideyoshikazehideyoshikaze Registered User regular
    Reclaimed badges just went on sale a few hours ago. If you didn't manage to get yours back. Then I hope all the best for you.

  • cdragon39cdragon39 Registered User new member
    So frustrated here. I sent in verifying photos (myself and two roommates holding signs with our names and the date, plus the three of us together at previous PAXes) and still got the unsympathetic "It was 4 per household, not 4 per person." I don't know what else to do. We live in Seattle, so we don't have flight plans or hotel receipts to show, and they ignored my offers to come to Will Call or show them verified mail at our address. Time to give up, I guess.

  • Lobster70Lobster70 Registered User regular
    I ordered 4 for my household, yet I was also cancelled. No explanation given beyond "over purchase" other than someone from Reedexpo speculating about scalping. That would not make sense either. (They might not know that, but *I* know that. There's definitely no way my passes were ever offered up anywhere or conf number shared or whatever.)

    Even if I'm able to get my passes back (looking pretty unlikely) this will be my last PAX.

    adias.angel
  • itsTrebleitsTreble Registered User regular
    My previous order was canceled, I got to the ticket resale, bought 4 sets of F-M and I just got another refund notice from reed pop? I don't understand? I've been going since 2009. I only had the 4 sets of tickets in my name, my address, my credit card now. Why did I get a reedpop refund this time? I didn't even get a message from PAX, just refund from Reedpop. Is my money not good enough for you guys or something? What's going on?

  • SkeleVaderSkeleVader Your Friendly Dark Lord of Destruction Registered User regular
    itsTreble wrote: »
    My previous order was canceled, I got to the ticket resale, bought 4 sets of F-M and I just got another refund notice from reed pop? I don't understand? I've been going since 2009. I only had the 4 sets of tickets in my name, my address, my credit card now. Why did I get a reedpop refund this time? I didn't even get a message from PAX, just refund from Reedpop. Is my money not good enough for you guys or something? What's going on?

    Your account has probably been flagged for breaking the rules.

    CiRAVM0.png

    itsTreble
  • Lobster70Lobster70 Registered User regular
    Which makes the fact that they suggested I watch Twitter for the opportunity to buy again all the more ludicrous. It's like being blacklisted with no way to prove innocence. Absolutely dismal customer service.

  • itsTrebleitsTreble Registered User regular
    SkeleVader wrote: »
    Your account has probably been flagged for breaking the rules.

    Does that mean I'm forever banned from PAX?

    They just labeled me for trying to get my friends to go? I've been in full support of them since 2009, and this is out of hand. I only had these 4 sets of F-M in my name, my address, my credit card. They're the only ones I bought during this resale. I got it, don't but more than 4 sets, my friends that can't get their own will just bite the bullet, but I'm here trying to not waste the amount of money and time I've spent procuring tickets, getting a house, getting transportation, etc.

  • zerzhulzerzhul Registered User, Moderator mod
    We can't answer that sort of question for you here, unfortunately. Only Reed/PA staff will have the information necessary to give you a real answer that is anything other than pure speculation.

  • itsTrebleitsTreble Registered User regular
    I see thank you. I've only seemed to get automated responses (The same exact one word for word) out of their e-mails so I figured maybe this would raise some attention.

  • Lobster70Lobster70 Registered User regular
    I would be thrilled if Reed/PA staff would give anything resembling a real answer. I've had no success with that other than someone saying that I wasn't flagged for over purchase, despite the the message I got about cancellation due to over purchase.

    I'm tired of being treated like some kind of criminal.

  • BrokunnBrokunn Registered User regular
    I'm not an impatient man, but the responses from customer support regarding this issue have been frustrating and disappointing. You may read my exchange with them here:

    http://i.imgur.com/hPd8A4c.png

    I was never once given the opportunity to plea my case, never offered the option of picking up my tickets locally, and in the end I was accused of being a scalper. Never in my entire 35 year life span have I dealt with a customer service department so unhelpful as this one (I've contacted Steam support and Logitech on a few occasions, so I have a pretty good idea of what awful is).

    If you're reading this and somehow thinking I got what I deserve, take a moment and consider this scenario:
    You enter a store with two coupons for a game you're really excited to purchase. You plan on picking up one for yourself and one for a friend. Unfortunately, in your haste, you fail to notice the "Limit one per customer" clause on the coupon. It was right there on the coupon, printed in bold text, but you missed it. You're not evil, you're not trying to be an asshole, you're just a human and you make mistakes. In fact, in the past, you've purchased other games at this very store using similar coupons. It never even occurred to you that there would be a limit.

    Now, in the real world, here's how this scenario would likely play out:
    You arrive at the cashier. He takes both the coupons and games from you, studies them for a moment, looks up and says, "Oh, I'm sorry, did you know there is a one per customer limit on these coupons?"

    Caught off guard and slightly embarrassed, you ask "What? Really? Oh crap, I'm sorry. Is it all right if I have my friend come buy her copy later? I'll go put this one back?"

    "Of course!", he says, smiling. "It's no problem at all, happens all the time."

    This, however, is what actually happened with me (and many others in this thread):
    You arrive at the cashier. He takes both the coupons and games from you, studies them for a moment, then looks up and locks his eyes with yours and says, "Oh, I'm sorry, there is a one per customer limit on these coupons." With one hand upon the games, the other clutching the coupons, he proceed to give you a cold, silent stare.

    Slightly embarrassed, and unsure how to proceed, you say, "Oh crap, sorry! I'll just take the one then and have my friend come pick up hers if that's ok?"

    The cashier's jaw clenches, "No sir, you don't seem to understand." He says through his teeth. "This policy was put in place to prevent criminal scum like you from re-selling our products. You'll not be purchasing anything today. Please leave."

    Dumbfounded, you stammer, "Uhhh, are you kidding? Look, I wasn't going to... like, sell it or..." Seeing no immediate response from the cashier, you start becoming a little unnerved and ask to speak to his manager.

    "No. You may not.", he says flatly, tears up your coupons, and points toward the exit, "Now leave."

    If you honestly believe this scenario, or ANY of the ones depicted in this tread are even slightly acceptable, I'd like to know what country you live in.

    Surely, I must be overreacting? Isn't this just standard procedure? Isn't this the same thing that happened last year? After all, Robert Khoo even stated the following:
    Just to clarify, nothing changed this year regarding our policy on this. We were no more or less strict in our pass than previous years.
    ...

    BULL SHIT. There are dozens of examples in this thread of folks who never had a problem in the past, not to mention the totally goofed up orders that were previously confirmed acceptable and were later cancelled. If you refuse to take their word for it, here is a link to last year's thread concerning cancelled tickets:

    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/190748/pax-prime-cancellation-emails

    Notice any difference? It's pretty clear that there was very little unrest last year compared to this time around. While it may be true that their policy has not changed, their process absolutely changed.

    So why the misdirection? Why did customer support cancel entire orders of badges instead of just those that exceed the limit? Why would they be so stubborn when confronted by their loyal customers, pleading to have their cases heard? Honestly, I think the simplest answer is probably the most likely in this case: Someone screwed up. Maybe they activated a new, expensive, automated system for "identifying" scalpers that didn't go as planned and no one wants to admit it was a failure? Maybe they oversold badges and now they're scrambling to re-coup any that slightly fall into a "suspicious" category so they don't face being fined by the convention center? Who knows? But something doesn't add up. This isn't the behavior of an organization that, in prior years, has been totally awesome to it's fans.

    I would wager that every person here would be more than willing to pick their tickets up at will-call, but very few of us were extended that option. This is a huge injustice and insult to us (your peers). We are not scalpers, we are gamers, and fans of PAX, just like you.

    #IAMNotAScalperPAX2015

    Lobster70gorgeousplanet
  • itsTrebleitsTreble Registered User regular
    Brokunn wrote: »
    You arrive at the cashier. He takes both the coupons and games from you, studies them for a moment, then looks up and locks his eyes with yours and says, "Oh, I'm sorry, there is a one per customer limit on these coupons." With one hand upon the games, the other clutching the coupons, he proceed to give you a cold, silent stare.

    Slightly embarrassed, and unsure how to proceed, you say, "Oh crap, sorry! I'll just take the one then and have my friend come pick up hers if that's ok?"

    The cashier's jaw clenches, "No sir, you don't seem to understand." He says through his teeth. "This policy was put in place to prevent criminal scum like you from re-selling our products. You'll not be purchasing anything today. Please leave."

    Dumbfounded, you stammer, "Uhhh, are you kidding? Look, I wasn't going to... like, sell it or..." Seeing no immediate response from the cashier, you start becoming a little unnerved and ask to speak to his manager.

    "No. You may not.", he says flatly, tears up your coupons, and points toward the exit, "Now leave."


    I would wager that every person here would be more than willing to pick their tickets up at will-call, but very few of us were extended that option. This is a huge injustice and insult to us (your peers). We are not scalpers, we are gamers, and fans of PAX, just like you.

    #IAMNotAScalperPAX2015
    "

    Boom that hits it on the nose. Their e-mails make me feel like absolute shit like I'm some harden criminal or something.

    Lobster70gorgeousplanet
  • Lobster70Lobster70 Registered User regular
    Exactly, with one small change:
    We are not scalpers, we are gamers, and FORMER fans of PAX...

  • BrokunnBrokunn Registered User regular
    Lobster70 wrote: »
    Exactly, with one small change:
    We are not scalpers, we are gamers, and FORMER fans of PAX...

    I hear you man. I'm so bitter about this turn of events I don't think I could enjoy myself at PAX even if I did get my badges back.

    Lobster70
  • hideyoshikazehideyoshikaze Registered User regular
    edited July 2015
    Here's how I got my badges back. And instead of typing your story here about how you were completely unjustified about this whole ordeal, you should have just done the same as I did. Plus I gave you @Brokunn and @Lobster70 Their manager's contact info after you sent me proof of you going on this trip, she is the only one who can help reinstate your tickets. So you should be calling her or contacting customer support instead of posting on the forums after I tried to help you out.

    Anyways. After mine were canceled I called customer support everyday and also emailed them everyday as well. I expressed everyday on the phone my situation and how much I needed the tickets back for me and my friends since we already have non refundable flights and airbnb hotel. I provided all the proof I can. Eventually a week later, they transferred me over to the manager and I explained everything; I also told the manager very clearly I will want to pick up the tickets at will call. The manager told me that they will get back to the registration manager on Monday. Monday comes and I called twice and the manager got back to me at the end of day and told me my tickets can be reinstated. I gave my name, address, credit card info and I got all 4 sets back.

    The lesson from this story is to never give up. I was very persistent, and expressed everything I could and how much this trip meant to me and my friends. Instead of complaining and giving up that they'll never answer me, I took the initiative to keep contacting them and showing them "hey, I was wronged and this was a mistake. But here I am trying to show you that I really need these tickets to attend the event". Emails didn't help but contacting customer support did. Even though they tell you that they are not allowed to help you and for you to only email them. That's because they're stopping actual scalpers from getting by. By giving up on the phone is one way to make a scalper lose interest in reselling the tickets. But people who aren't scalpers and actually invested on this trip would go above and beyond like me to get their tickets back and PAX knows this. Those people get their tickets back.

    Look. Complaining on the forums isn't going to help. Sure it could have been a mistake, but the only thing you can do is contact PAX. Only they can help you.we can't. We can offer advice and try to help you feel better. But they are the only ones who can fix this.

    If you truly feel wronged. Call every day and tell them your story, show them "proof". Do everything you can to get the tickets back. And they'll know you aren't a scalper. But giving up doesn't solve anything. This goes for everyone who bought their passes legitimitally.

    Edit: Their office closed until July 6th.

    #shiamotivation

    Take care

    hideyoshikaze on
    Fenrisfang
  • Lobster70Lobster70 Registered User regular
    I've been emailing and calling. This is a forum where we can vent frustration and share experiences and tips. Thanks again for the help and advice.

  • BrokunnBrokunn Registered User regular
    Here's how I got my badges back. And instead of typing your story here about how you were completely unjustified about this whole ordeal, you should have just done the same as I did. Plus I gave you @Brokunn and @Lobster70 Their manager's contact info after you sent me proof of you going on this trip, she is the only one who can help reinstate your tickets. So you should be calling her or contacting customer support instead of posting on the forums after I tried to help you out.

    Anyways. After mine were canceled I called customer support everyday and also emailed them everyday as well. I expressed everyday on the phone my situation and how much I needed the tickets back for me and my friends since we already have non refundable flights and airbnb hotel. I provided all the proof I can. Eventually a week later, they transferred me over to the manager and I explained everything; I also told the manager very clearly I will want to pick up the tickets at will call. The manager told me that they will get back to the registration manager on Monday. Monday comes and I called twice and the manager got back to me at the end of day and told me my tickets can be reinstated. I gave my name, address, credit card info and I got all 4 sets back.

    The lesson from this story is to never give up. I was very persistent, and expressed everything I could and how much this trip meant to me and my friends. Instead of complaining and giving up that they'll never answer me, I took the initiative to keep contacting them and showing them "hey, I was wronged and this was a mistake. But here I am trying to show you that I really need these tickets to attend the event". Emails didn't help but contacting customer support did. Even though they tell you that they are not allowed to help you and for you to only email them. That's because they're stopping actual scalpers from getting by. By giving up on the phone is one way to make a scalper lose interest in reselling the tickets. But people who aren't scalpers and actually invested on this trip would go above and beyond like me to get their tickets back and PAX knows this. Those people get their tickets back.

    Look. Complaining on the forums isn't going to help. Sure it could have been a mistake, but the only thing you can do is contact PAX. Only they can help you.we can't. We can offer advice and try to help you feel better. But they are the only ones who can fix this.

    If you truly feel wronged. Call every day and tell them your story, show them "proof". Do everything you can to get the tickets back. And they'll know you aren't a scalper. But giving up doesn't solve anything. This goes for everyone who bought their passes legitimitally.

    Edit: Their office closed until July 6th.

    #shiamotivation

    Take care

    I did attempt to contact the manager you put me in touch with, here's how that went:

    http://i.imgur.com/8ZMFMOr.png

    Based on the fact that all of their responses were signed "Customer Service" and none of them remotely addressed anything I asked, I assume they were canned responses and the manager in question didn't even seen them. On top of that, both times I called they said she was "not available" and that the only thing I could do to address my problem was via email anyway.

    So, I guess the lesson is just keep getting the run around from them? I suppose I'll start recording my phone conversations w/ them and post it here so everyone can hear how ridiculous they're being? Someone reading this has to have worked in customer service before. What do you think about the way this is being handled?

  • ClixClix This guy I know Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited July 2015
    Brokunn wrote: »
    So, I guess the lesson is just keep getting the run around from them? I suppose I'll start recording my phone conversations w/ them and post it here so everyone can hear how ridiculous they're being? Someone reading this has to have worked in customer service before. What do you think about the way this is being handled?

    I think your case is different because you were in clear violation of the rules (according to your own email chain). Someone within the badge limit got their order reinstated because there was an error and their order shouldn't have been canceled to begin with.

    You can't just claim ignorance on a clear violation of the purchase policy. It's like getting caught speeding and saying you should get off without a ticket because you didn't know the speed limit. That just doesn't work.

    Mr. Khoo made it very clear that dealing with scalpers was a high priority this year, and that a strict badge limit of 4 of any one day was the rule. They're not going to let you off with a warning for such a severe offense to the rules.

    And people arguing that scalpers are fulfilling a public service have to be off their rocker if they think that argument is going to help them at all. Trying to shame/blackmail a staff member with voice recordings isn't going to get you anywhere either.

    Yes, it sucks. And yes, I actually feel sorry for you. But you can't blame someone simply for enforcing the rules (otherwise I could never get along with zerzhul).

    The lesson is don't break the rules.

    Clix on
    angelicstubbornessWolfmanASTNSteel FireSuzamaLazorzFenrisfang
  • hideyoshikazehideyoshikaze Registered User regular
    @Brokunn All I can tell you is to keep trying. But the one thing you should have done was email the manager your proof you sent to me in the initial email you sent. All I'm seeing is just email exchanges and no proof being sent out from you. I would just send the proof.

  • JasonGreveJasonGreve Gamer Registered User regular
    While I am unable to attend PRIME this year (weddings boooo), I think what would have me most upset is the wording.

    This is taken from the registration page:

    EqaiOus.png

    "In order to keep things fair, we currently have badge limits of 4 per person (per badge type)."

    This should read, ".. of 4 per household mailing address (per badge type)."

    While that may cause a lot of grief for people, at least then you would be able to plan accordingly.

    Me: "OK so I can only buy 4 sets at my address and that covers me, my 2 brothers, and my father."
    Buddy: "Alright I'll get 4 sets as well, that covers me, and our 2 buddies who are coming, and my girlfriend"

    At that point you may have much less upset folk, but still the same policy. It just needs to be communicated in advance is all.

  • Steel FireSteel Fire Gunboat Diplomat PAI MarketingRegistered User regular
    JasonGreve wrote: »
    While I am unable to attend PRIME this year (weddings boooo), I think what would have me most upset is the wording.

    This is taken from the registration page:

    EqaiOus.png

    "In order to keep things fair, we currently have badge limits of 4 per person (per badge type)."

    This should read, ".. of 4 per household mailing address (per badge type)."

    While that may cause a lot of grief for people, at least then you would be able to plan accordingly.

    Me: "OK so I can only buy 4 sets at my address and that covers me, my 2 brothers, and my father."
    Buddy: "Alright I'll get 4 sets as well, that covers me, and our 2 buddies who are coming, and my girlfriend"

    At that point you may have much less upset folk, but still the same policy. It just needs to be communicated in advance is all.

    That is covered in the second sentence, which people seem to keep ignoring. The results are also clearly stated.

  • Bladed CicadaBladed Cicada Registered User regular
    As much as I sympathize with people that had their legitimate orders canceled, I'm also going to be the guy to suggest that in 5 pages of stories on here there's probably more than a hand-full of scalpers on here hamming it up like they weren't scalping. Also, if you have gone in the last few years, you should know the policy. I reloaded the page after my order cause I couldn't get a Saturday at first, was able to get one in a separate order and immediately emailed pax questions to tell them not to flag my order just in case... and i didn't even meet the limit.

  • LazorzLazorz Tokyo, JPRegistered User regular
    edited July 2015
    Steel Fire wrote: »
    That is covered in the second sentence, which people seem to keep ignoring. The results are also clearly stated.
    While I agree that a single household shouldn't be ordering more than 4 total sets, the wording is not clear enough in the policy and needs to be updated to prevent further frustration with attendees.

    You say that the second sentence covers the multiple people in a household scenario. I'd argue that it implies if YOU (the sole buyer who is capped at 4 sets) order under different names and multiple addresses, your orders will be cancelled. Obviously there are scalpers out there who will pretend they have a wife or whatever to try and bypass the system and there's no practical way for ReedPOP to verify that in a timely manner.

    However, the issue with this wording comes from the fact that there are legitimate couples/roommates who individually ordered 4 sets each without telling each other, which, to them, doesn't violate the policy because they as individuals are not ordering under multiple names and addresses. Technically, yes, the wording is still vague enough where ReedPOP can justifiably take away any orders that exceed 4 per house, even when they're legitimate.

    All I'm arguing for is the policy to be clarified for future shows. "4 of each badge type per household, no exceptions." And hopefully no more confused and pissed off attendees.

    Lazorz on
    bacon_avenger
  • JasonGreveJasonGreve Gamer Registered User regular
    Lazorz wrote: »
    Steel Fire wrote: »
    That is covered in the second sentence, which people seem to keep ignoring. The results are also clearly stated.
    While I agree that a single household shouldn't be ordering more than 4 total sets, the wording is not clear enough in the policy and needs to be updated to prevent further frustration with attendees.

    You say that the second sentence covers the multiple people in a household scenario. I'd argue that it implies if YOU (the sole buyer who is capped at 4 sets) order under different names and multiple addresses, your orders will be cancelled. Obviously there are scalpers out there who will pretend they have a wife or whatever to try and bypass the system and there's no practical way for ReedPOP to verify that in a timely manner.

    However, the issue with this wording comes from the fact that there are legitimate couples/roommates who individually ordered 4 sets each without telling each other, which, to them, doesn't violate the policy because they as individuals are not ordering under multiple names and addresses. Technically, yes, the policy is still vague enough where ReedPOP can justifiably take away any orders that exceed 4 per house, even when they're legitimate.

    All I'm saying is that the policy should be clarified. "4 of each badge type per household, no exceptions." And hopefully no more confused and pissed off attendees.

    ^ This. It's not clearly covered in the second sentence. It's perhaps loosely covered in the second sentence at best. A simple verbage change that is outwardly communicated from then on would resolve this issue and give PA the ground they can firmly stand upon when revoking at that point.

    SomeRandomAngryPerson: "OMG MY BADGES GOT REVOKED WTF THIS IS BULLSHIT IM A LEGITIMATE PERSON WITH LEGITIMATE PAX NEEDS AND IVE BEEN TO PAX EVERY YEAR SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME WTF"
    PA: "Rule says 4 of each badge type per household, no exceptions. Unfortunately there were multiple orders from your household, and thus all of the orders from this dwelling have been revoked as per the openly posted rules on the registration page."

    angelicstubbornessIncreaseBluebacon_avenger
  • ElmoFuntzElmoFuntz Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    Here's how I got my badges back.

    ... Snip ...

    Look. Complaining on the forums isn't going to help. Sure it could have been a mistake, but the only thing you can do is contact PAX. Only they can help you.we can't. We can offer advice and try to help you feel better. But they are the only ones who can fix this.

    If you truly feel wronged. Call every day and tell them your story, show them "proof". Do everything you can to get the tickets back. And they'll know you aren't a scalper. But giving up doesn't solve anything. This goes for everyone who bought their passes legitimitally.

    Edit: Their office closed until July 6th.

    #shiamotivation

    Take care

    I'd also like to point out that these people are human and make mistakes and are doing what they are instructed to do. I guarantee you that if you go into this with a pissy attitude, demanding things, are disrespectful, etc you will never ever reach the manager or have anything done for you. We all know you are upset and this is not fair but "don't be a dick"™ or you won't get very far. Thank people for all their help no matter how small it is. Heck even if they can't help thank them anyway for even answering the phone but do it nicely. Tone of voice is a huge thing over the phone. The more you make that person feel better the more likely they will go out of their way to assist you.

    Go for the eyes Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!
    vn6ID15.png

    IncreaseBluemljonir
  • ElmoFuntzElmoFuntz Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    Steel Fire wrote: »
    JasonGreve wrote: »
    While I am unable to attend PRIME this year (weddings boooo), I think what would have me most upset is the wording.

    This is taken from the registration page:

    EqaiOus.png

    "In order to keep things fair, we currently have badge limits of 4 per person (per badge type)."

    This should read, ".. of 4 per household mailing address (per badge type)."

    While that may cause a lot of grief for people, at least then you would be able to plan accordingly.

    Me: "OK so I can only buy 4 sets at my address and that covers me, my 2 brothers, and my father."
    Buddy: "Alright I'll get 4 sets as well, that covers me, and our 2 buddies who are coming, and my girlfriend"

    At that point you may have much less upset folk, but still the same policy. It just needs to be communicated in advance is all.

    That is covered in the second sentence, which people seem to keep ignoring. The results are also clearly stated.

    I tend to disagree with you Steel Fire and agree with JasonGreve. This COULD have been worded much better. It should have more clearly stated per HOUSEHOLD and per ADDRESS. Yes if you read into it and take a minute to think about the ominous threat you would possibly realize that but it also clearly states PER PERSON so maybe not.. regardless at that point the excited masses are freaking out trying to get their tickets before they are all gone. Too many people legitimately got caught up this year because of issues like shared housing. Scalpers are probably going to be smarter and use PO boxes and multiple cards then what will PAX do? Refuse to deliver to a PO box? Sadly I can see that happening and again affecting the real attendees.

    Go for the eyes Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!
    vn6ID15.png

  • Lobster70Lobster70 Registered User regular
    My grievous violation was to be the only person at my address to buy 4 Saturday passes. Reedexpo has helped ensure that I will not make the same mistake in the future.

  • Steel FireSteel Fire Gunboat Diplomat PAI MarketingRegistered User regular
    Lazorz wrote: »
    Steel Fire wrote: »
    That is covered in the second sentence, which people seem to keep ignoring. The results are also clearly stated.
    While I agree that a single household shouldn't be ordering more than 4 total sets, the wording is not clear enough in the policy and needs to be updated to prevent further frustration with attendees.

    You say that the second sentence covers the multiple people in a household scenario. I'd argue that it implies if YOU (the sole buyer who is capped at 4 sets) order under different names and multiple addresses, your orders will be cancelled. Obviously there are scalpers out there who will pretend they have a wife or whatever to try and bypass the system and there's no practical way for ReedPOP to verify that in a timely manner.

    However, the issue with this wording comes from the fact that there are legitimate couples/roommates who individually ordered 4 sets each without telling each other, which, to them, doesn't violate the policy because they as individuals are not ordering under multiple names and addresses. Technically, yes, the wording is still vague enough where ReedPOP can justifiably take away any orders that exceed 4 per house, even when they're legitimate.

    All I'm arguing for is the policy to be clarified for future shows. "4 of each badge type per household, no exceptions." And hopefully no more confused and pissed off attendees.
    JasonGreve wrote: »
    Lazorz wrote: »
    Steel Fire wrote: »
    That is covered in the second sentence, which people seem to keep ignoring. The results are also clearly stated.
    While I agree that a single household shouldn't be ordering more than 4 total sets, the wording is not clear enough in the policy and needs to be updated to prevent further frustration with attendees.

    You say that the second sentence covers the multiple people in a household scenario. I'd argue that it implies if YOU (the sole buyer who is capped at 4 sets) order under different names and multiple addresses, your orders will be cancelled. Obviously there are scalpers out there who will pretend they have a wife or whatever to try and bypass the system and there's no practical way for ReedPOP to verify that in a timely manner.

    However, the issue with this wording comes from the fact that there are legitimate couples/roommates who individually ordered 4 sets each without telling each other, which, to them, doesn't violate the policy because they as individuals are not ordering under multiple names and addresses. Technically, yes, the policy is still vague enough where ReedPOP can justifiably take away any orders that exceed 4 per house, even when they're legitimate.

    All I'm saying is that the policy should be clarified. "4 of each badge type per household, no exceptions." And hopefully no more confused and pissed off attendees.

    ^ This. It's not clearly covered in the second sentence. It's perhaps loosely covered in the second sentence at best. A simple verbage change that is outwardly communicated from then on would resolve this issue and give PA the ground they can firmly stand upon when revoking at that point.

    SomeRandomAngryPerson: "OMG MY BADGES GOT REVOKED WTF THIS IS BULLSHIT IM A LEGITIMATE PERSON WITH LEGITIMATE PAX NEEDS AND IVE BEEN TO PAX EVERY YEAR SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME WTF"
    PA: "Rule says 4 of each badge type per household, no exceptions. Unfortunately there were multiple orders from your household, and thus all of the orders from this dwelling have been revoked as per the openly posted rules on the registration page."
    ElmoFuntz wrote: »
    Steel Fire wrote: »
    JasonGreve wrote: »
    While I am unable to attend PRIME this year (weddings boooo), I think what would have me most upset is the wording.

    This is taken from the registration page:

    EqaiOus.png

    "In order to keep things fair, we currently have badge limits of 4 per person (per badge type)."

    This should read, ".. of 4 per household mailing address (per badge type)."

    While that may cause a lot of grief for people, at least then you would be able to plan accordingly.

    Me: "OK so I can only buy 4 sets at my address and that covers me, my 2 brothers, and my father."
    Buddy: "Alright I'll get 4 sets as well, that covers me, and our 2 buddies who are coming, and my girlfriend"

    At that point you may have much less upset folk, but still the same policy. It just needs to be communicated in advance is all.

    That is covered in the second sentence, which people seem to keep ignoring. The results are also clearly stated.

    I tend to disagree with you Steel Fire and agree with JasonGreve. This COULD have been worded much better. It should have more clearly stated per HOUSEHOLD and per ADDRESS. Yes if you read into it and take a minute to think about the ominous threat you would possibly realize that but it also clearly states PER PERSON so maybe not.. regardless at that point the excited masses are freaking out trying to get their tickets before they are all gone. Too many people legitimately got caught up this year because of issues like shared housing. Scalpers are probably going to be smarter and use PO boxes and multiple cards then what will PAX do? Refuse to deliver to a PO box? Sadly I can see that happening and again affecting the real attendees.
    Not saying it couldn't be worded more clearly, because I agree it could. However I am really tired of people just quoting the first sentence of that notation and ignoring the rest, then acting like they're confused that their entire order got cancelled, when it's stated right there. Let's be real, even if it is worded more clearly, there will still be people who ignore it and then when their order(s) get revoked will claim they're long time attendees but never knew the restriction existed.

    I think it has also been very clearly shown in this thread that people with legitimate purchases who either pre-emptively make contact at time of purchase or who openly and civilly work it out if they get flagged during follow-up, tend to have things work out just fine. There's no perfect solution and a 3% revocation rate on orders is pretty small in the first place.

    Fenrisfang
  • ElmoFuntzElmoFuntz Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    edited July 2015
    Steel Fire wrote: »
    ... snip ...

    However I am really tired of people just quoting the first sentence of that notation and ignoring the rest, then acting like they're confused that their entire order got cancelled, when it's stated right there. Let's be real, even if it is worded more clearly, there will still be people who ignore it and then when their order(s) get revoked will claim they're long time attendees but never knew the restriction existed.

    See this (bolded and underlined) is the part I and I think many others will have a problem with. There have been limits on the number of badges for years now. I'm even fairly certain there was 6 years ago when I started going and it might have been around 8 but I don't ever remember 12. Anyone who claims to be a long time PAX goer should know there is a restriction. I only buy 1 set of badges every year and I know about it and not just from the complaining every year in the forum.

    I do think they need to clear up the address/household issue (i.e. make it more clear) as I do also believe they are being more aggressive than in the past about enforcing the rules. Of course as stated the problem with telling people hey don't order off the same CC at 2 separate addresses or don't let your room-renter order at your address is it gives the scalpers TMI. Seattle just needs to grow a pair and make scalping illegal again (yes it used to be for awhile). That's where people should be putting their energy not into being mad a ReedPop or RKoo.

    Just for fun here is a rather interesting article from my state about scalping. They argue against it being illegal and use PAX as an example, state law gives event scalpers a pass for now. Interesting that Ticketmaster and StubHub are actually just giant scalpers themselves and part of why getting antiscalping laws to pass is difficult.

    ElmoFuntz on
    Go for the eyes Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!
    vn6ID15.png

    Steel Fire
  • itsTrebleitsTreble Registered User regular
    They started doing the anti-scalping measures about 3 years ago. 6 years ago they had group packages actually promoting people to buy multiple sets of tickets.

    In any case, I'm trying to figure out how to talk to a real person about the issue, I keep just getting the automated message about how I was flagged by their system designed to prevent scalpers when I got to the resale and repurchase the allowed 4x Friday-Monday. At this point I'm getting if you were flagged at the initial sale, you're SOL and cannot purchase them for the year. hideyoshikaze how were you able to get a real person to address your e-mails?

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