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The [chat] Who Circumnavigated Fairyland

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Posts

  • FlayFlay Registered User regular
    Don't worry Tunic, we'll do what any good friends would do and shame you relentlessly

    tynicDoodmannProspicience
  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I can always count on you guys

  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    Alexa, add shaming Tynic to my calendar.


    tynic
  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    I'm starting to develop a bit of a "style" for myself because of these regular movie posters. I still go off the rails if I feel like the movie needs something specific, but it's cool to see a bunch of stuff in a row that kind of looks similar.

    Yes, I realize the one I just posted in my thread is an exception.

  • JuggernutJuggernut South CurrrrlinaRegistered User regular
    Hey anybody here ever used gold leaf in an illustration? I've got a question or two that google doesnt really seem to have a specific answer for. That I can find anyway.

    I want to use gold leaf to add some flourish to this ink piece I'm working on. I know I need size and the leaf, and more or less the application process. Problem is, I've read that actual 23+ karat gold leaf doesn't tarnish so it doesn't need any sealing, but will composite leaf, not being actual gold, not need it as well? That's what I cant really find an answer for. Seems most people who are using it are using underneath oil or acrylic paints. I'm not gonna be doing that. Also theres a big price difference between composite and actual gold. 24 sheets of composite is like, $12 whereas the cheapest I've found the actual gold is about $50. I'd rather do the composite to start with in case I screw up.

    So if I need a sealer, what kind do I need? It's going on a heavy, arches watercolor paper and then eventually some giclee prints (gonna hand embellish those).

  • FlayFlay Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    Sorry Juggernaut, I can't help you there

    I have an open question though. Could I ask you guys to critique my portfolio? https://www.artstation.com/findownes

    I'm trying to track down some actual concept art work now instead of just relying on graphic design. I don't really feel like I'm ready, I'm just hoping that with some hard work I can make up for all the things I don't know

    Flay on
  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Flay wrote: »
    Sorry Juggernaut, I can't help you there

    I have an open question though. Could I ask you guys to critique my portfolio? https://www.artstation.com/findownes

    I'm trying to track down some actual concept art work now instead of just relying on graphic design. I don't really feel like I'm ready, I'm just hoping that with some hard work I can make up for all the things I don't know

    I would say if you want to pivot toward concept art, ditch the schoolism and the logo/grafiti tag stuff. The second is a great resume piece but doesn't seem applicable.

    Everything looks awesome and congrats on getting to work on some BG&E2 stuff!

  • JuggernutJuggernut South CurrrrlinaRegistered User regular
    Who here has the ipad... pro? Is that the one with the fancy pencil? How is that? I've heard great things in passing and I'm considering getting one. I got a lotta down time at work, especially on nightshift and I could be using that time for ARTING instead of YouTube.

  • Angel_of_BaconAngel_of_Bacon Moderator mod
    Flay wrote: »
    I have an open question though. Could I ask you guys to critique my portfolio? https://www.artstation.com/findownes

    I'm trying to track down some actual concept art work now instead of just relying on graphic design. I don't really feel like I'm ready, I'm just hoping that with some hard work I can make up for all the things I don't know
    @Flay
    (Note that I haven't updated or even looked at my own portfolio in years, so sorry if I'm saying anything that appears hypocritical. I really gotta go redo it from scratch at some point.)

    <Puts on 'someone just sent this portfolio to my work email inbox' hat>

    -Agree with Doodman that you don't want to necessarily include obvious teaching exercises like the schoolism stuff- those are great to do for your own growth, but a mastery of technical fundamentals should be a given, and something demonstrated in your other work.

    -Cloaked fire guys- what's there is good, but when the only figure work of this kind in there, and the figures are left obscured/faces are blurred/are seen from behind, I'm going to guess you're not really that great at figure painting and are trying to hide something. If you're looking to be hired for this kinda 'cinematic shot' concept work, you're not going to be able to hide from painting figures head on, in the light, and in focus for very long. If you had 2 other pieces in a similar vein that had clear, good figure face/painting I'd be fine with this current piece- but standing alone, it'd leave me with questions about how confident you really are at realistic character work.

    -Sketchup/turnaround models: I like these because it shows you understand the need of the modeler, and you've demonstrated that you've got a solid understanding of realistic architecture.
    That said, a concept artist isn't just there to relate reality as is to a modeler- after all, they can use google image search and look up real buildings just as well as you can- it's to bring across the art direction, the mood, the character, and often times the game function of a place or object.
    So these buildings- do they communicate they belong in a AAA first-person horror game? A mobile city builder game? An animated feature film? Are these medieval buildings going to be seen during the medieval time period, where they're brand new and full of life? Or is it a modern day setting, where these old buildings have been worn and repaired and repainted and repaired again, over the course of hundreds of years- and the population has mostly abandoned the area in recent years in favor of the big cities?

    As an art director, I don't just want a concept artist that can make good drawings- I want one that can take in the greater needs and context of a project, understand them, refine and plus those ideas in their work. I need to see your creative problem solving skills at work, in addition to your technical skills.

    So when you sit down to make a piece, try to spend a bit more time before you open up Photoshop to ask yourself not just, "what would look cool?", but "What problem am I trying to solve for?"

    "I want a cool building to put in my portfolio" is not a specific, actionable problem you will ever be asked to solve for in the context of a work environment, (in spite of how it may seem when you're just browsing through ArtStation all day.)

    "I need to figure out how to make a church where the werewolves that took over this town gather every night to sacrifice the captured townsfolk, in a ritual to revive the banished dark wolfgod Lycanedious in a desperate, last-ditch bid to defeat the Paladins of the Western Sea that have driven them to near extinction", or "I need to figure out how to convey the character and recent happenings of this person through the appearance of their dorm room in this game for teen girls", or "how do I design this chicken coop in a way that makes it clear you're supposed to click it, and when you do an egg is gonna pop out of it? Should be all-ages friendly cartoonish and fun, but not so much so that an adult would be turned off by the style", are not specifically problems you may be ever asked to solve, but in solving how to convey all that visually, it it will help demonstrate that you have the creative chops to solve the problems that a company does need help solving.
    (Certainly, tailor these problem solving ideas in light of the sorts of projects that you actually would like to work on, instead of scattershotting with my random examples.)

    -3D/photobash future city&Egyptian piece: Again, it's well done stuff, but when I'm only seeing an example or two it leaves a question- did this person follow specific art direction- and had enough mastery of this technique to apply it to achieve the goals of that direction? Or did they just follow a tutorial once or twice? How deep does the knowledge and experience with these techniques actually run? Does this artist know it well enough to use it effectively on my project?

    -I don't know what the "Beyond Good and Evil 2 x HITRECORD collaboration" is- fanart contest? Something actually in the game? It's a gamble making that a full third of your demonstrated work, when I can't immediately understand the purpose and context of the work- and therefore I can't judge how well you're succeeding at it. The drawn posters may be exactly what was called for in context- but I wonder what I'd end up with if I were to ask you to do characters outside of that very specific style.

    Overall there's good stuff in there and demonstrates a good technical base- I just would want more that speaks not just to technical skill, but to your understanding of the job as a problem solver and communicator of ideas.

    I hope that makes sense/helps/is not too discouraging.

    WassermeloneSublimusDoodmannProspicienceFlay
  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Juggernut wrote: »
    Who here has the ipad... pro? Is that the one with the fancy pencil? How is that? I've heard great things in passing and I'm considering getting one. I got a lotta down time at work, especially on nightshift and I could be using that time for ARTING instead of YouTube.

    I really like it. Closest thing I've found to a truly portable cintiq. I use Procreate, and it's extremely nice to draw with.

    IrukaProspicience
  • IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    I use clip paint with the Ipad, will probably go to photoshop if that port ends up being good and not extra money on top of CC. The pro is a beast, and I don't even really like apple products generally.

    I will say, I think it takes some time to get into a workflow with it, and If you take the plunge, don't let your first days with procreate or whatever scare you off. After a few months, I'm feeling comfortable enough to tackle more and more on it. Once I got my little controller for my hot keys, things really started to click for my workflow.

    DoodmannProspicience
  • PeasPeas Registered User regular
    edited January 24
    edit: Wait nvm wrong thread

    Iruka on
    tylvh4k5gys0.gif
  • SeveredHeadSeveredHead Registered User regular
    edited January 24
    whats the thoughts on going back to old work and re-touching it and just updating it to a higher polish? is that a "not worth it situation" where you should just do something new from scratch - or - worthwhile to fix mistakes on a piece that has potential? i lean towards the ladder view cause im lazy and stuff. but if you are changing it so much that really your just recycling the idea, does that seem fair? or old work is old and move on?

    SeveredHead on
  • JuggernutJuggernut South CurrrrlinaRegistered User regular
    edited January 24
    My recommendation would be to start with simple, loose layout sketches and then just keep doing those. Sit on it a few days, then go back and look at it. By the second or third pass it should be getting to the point where you're really happy with it and then knock out the finished piece. Saves you some time in the long run.

    Redoing the same work might improve it incrementally, like writing multiple drafts of a story, but eventually it's going to get in the way of other stuff and if you're posting it for an audience they may get tired of seeing the same content in a short amount of time.

    That doesnt really apply to finding something you did like 4 or 5 years ago and then seeing how far you've come in comparison. That's actually fun.

    Juggernut on
  • JuggernutJuggernut South CurrrrlinaRegistered User regular
    Full disclosure tho I literally started reworking an old piece today for a sticker design so

    You know

    Doodmann
  • JuggernutJuggernut South CurrrrlinaRegistered User regular
    I'm trying to work on an historical short comic set in the early days of WW1. Still writing the first draft and I honestly have no clue if I'll have time to work on it but it's been on my mind for probably close to a year now.

    Somebody dissuade me from buying a full blown French uniform for reference photos.

  • SeveredHeadSeveredHead Registered User regular
    edited January 27
    dunkirk screenshots? could prob find a few scenes with good ref. also pretty great movie.

    edit- oh shit ww1 ok, uhhh well did uniforms change that much. ok that movie where they play soccer on chirstmas eve on no mans land, there. saved it

    SeveredHead on
    Doodmann
  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Juggernut wrote: »
    I'm trying to work on an historical short comic set in the early days of WW1. Still writing the first draft and I honestly have no clue if I'll have time to work on it but it's been on my mind for probably close to a year now.

    Somebody dissuade me from buying a full blown French uniform for reference photos.

    I tried something similar once. It turned into extremely dark Beetle Bailey satire almost immediately.

    Doodmann
  • Angel_of_BaconAngel_of_Bacon Moderator mod
    Juggernut wrote: »
    Somebody dissuade me from buying a full blown French uniform for reference photos.

    I say buy it, and put it in your regular wardrobe rotation to get your money's worth.

    Blaze the path of cosplay-erryday fashion so one day I can go to work in a pirate frock coat over t-shirt and jeans without anyone batting an eye.

  • PeasPeas Registered User regular
    Hey folks how do you learn anatomy? This is something I have been struggling over the years, I keep learning and reading and drawing them but when it's time to apply my mind goes blank. Also I have really bad memory so if I don't keep doing them I will pretty much forget everything within the span of a week or two, which is really frustrating because I feel like my failures in anatomy are really limiting my growth and I find it tough to move on and have confidence about anything as an "artist"

    Reposting here because because I realize the tutorial and questions thread was dead

    tylvh4k5gys0.gif
  • JuggernutJuggernut South CurrrrlinaRegistered User regular
    dunkirk screenshots? could prob find a few scenes with good ref. also pretty great movie.

    edit- oh shit ww1 ok, uhhh well did uniforms change that much. ok that movie where they play soccer on chirstmas eve on no mans land, there. saved it

    Dunkirk is a great movie but I can't watch it on anything but an IMAX screen because it was not meant for home TV setups.
    Juggernut wrote: »
    Somebody dissuade me from buying a full blown French uniform for reference photos.

    I say buy it, and put it in your regular wardrobe rotation to get your money's worth.

    Blaze the path of cosplay-erryday fashion so one day I can go to work in a pirate frock coat over t-shirt and jeans without anyone batting an eye.

    It's a bright red kepi hat and an iron blue, double breasted greatcoat so straight up pretty dang stylin' not gonna lie.

  • SeveredHeadSeveredHead Registered User regular
    i like how the concept of camouflauge lagged so far behind rifles, really accurate long range ones that can hit red bobbing things

  • JuggernutJuggernut South CurrrrlinaRegistered User regular
    edited January 27
    Fun fact: it was pretty much just the french who refused to not wear bright ass colors at the start of the war. The Germans, Austrians, Prussians, Italians, British, everybody, quickly figured out it was a bad idea and adapted accordingly. Apparently the Italians did a test on a rifle range where they set up two dummy targets, one with their old blue uniform and one in their later kinda greenish drab one. The blue uniform got hit 7 times as much and they went lol nah and adopted the khaki green.

    Its partly attributed to why the French lost 27,000 soldiers in a single day in 1914. Which, coincidentally, is what the comic is supposed to be about and why I know these things!

    Juggernut on
    tapeslinger
  • SeveredHeadSeveredHead Registered User regular
    edited January 27
    post that shit! wips even

    SeveredHead on
  • Angel_of_BaconAngel_of_Bacon Moderator mod
    Peas wrote: »
    Hey folks how do you learn anatomy? This is something I have been struggling over the years, I keep learning and reading and drawing them but when it's time to apply my mind goes blank. Also I have really bad memory so if I don't keep doing them I will pretty much forget everything within the span of a week or two, which is really frustrating because I feel like my failures in anatomy are really limiting my growth and I find it tough to move on and have confidence about anything as an "artist"

    Reposting here because because I realize the tutorial and questions thread was dead

    @Peas:
    I think a lack of responses comes more from it being such a broad question, that it's hard to give a brief, useful answer. What do you mean by "do anatomy"? What do you mean by "anatomy" anyway?

    One thing I'll say is that while there are a lot of ways to study anatomy, each of which is going to have a different purpose, and different angle that teaches you a different thing, I will say it is not like studying for a test in school: cram all the information in your mind and be able to regurgitate it on command without referring to anything.

    Yes, it is useful to have a good base of anatomical knowledge in your head- but any pro will still shoot reference, refer to their anatomy books, have anatomical models on their desk, while they are working on their pieces- they know they can't learn it all at once, keep it in their head all at once. That'd be like, "I want to be a writer, so first I have to go memorize an unbridged dictionary and thesaurus. Also, then never forget any of it."
    Forget that. Nobody'd make it as a writer or an artist if that's how it worked.


    I'll try to relate what I picked up at Watts: most supposed problems that beginners with chalk up to "anatomy", are usually not.

    More often they are simply problems with basic proportions, perspective, construction, and measurement- problems that exist in the 'mannequin' phase of a drawing, not the, <turns to a random page of Goldfinger's Human Anatomy For Artists: The Elements of Form on my shelf> "At the distal end of the humerus, projecting anteriorly, are the capitulum and the trochlea. The rounded capitulum articulates with the radius", phase of a drawing, if you even get into such detail that there is such a thing. Myself, I cannot make heads or tails of that sentence and I doubt many artists I know could, without staring at it for 10 minutes.

    A simple figure that is well-constructed, well-proportioned, well-measured, and in proper perspective, will be a much better drawing than one that the artist has rushed through those things to try to get in all the details that their anatomy textbook says they need to know about. This is why Watts and those Youtube Proko videos major on so much about the Reilly method of simplification, why Loomis has its mannequins, why How to Draw the Marvel Way has it's box-and-cylinder guys. Because that's the actual important stuff to get right first! 95% of the battle is fought there, not in knowing offhand how many divisions there are in the serratus. Jeff Watts told me once that the quickest improvements in overall drawing ability was seen in students not taking the anatomy classes, or the 3 hour long pose figure drawing classes, but in the 20 minute figure drawing lay-ins class- where you don't have time to worry about the minutiae of anatomy, and can only focus on getting the overall basics of the figure correct. Just honing the ability to observe and record the big ideas and angles accurately. Nobody cares if you know the exact shape and latin name for each protuberance of the femur, if you then draw a thigh 4 inches too long for the person it's attached to. A good, correctly sized cylinder for a thigh would serve you better.

    Looking through your recent postings in the SE doodle thread, that's pretty much what I'm seeing- sure, you got all the teeth in those skulls, all the places where plates of the skull meet- but the overall proportions and shape of the cranium get all over the place pretty quickly. On faces you're getting eyeballs and jawlines and overall face width too wide, owing to not being diligent and patient enough with angle measurement, checking and double checking and triple checking to ensure things are in the right place, before moving on- and if you've moved on anyway, still double-checking and going back and fixing it. It's not anatomy problems first and foremost- it's observation and correction problems.


    That's the real hard thing to get across, and it's the hard thing to get people to listen to seriously.
    It's easy for someone to comprehend, "Oh man, here's this crazy detailed anatomy book! If I knew all this stuff, I'd be great at drawing!"- even though that understanding is mostly wrong. My brother is a doctor, so he's gonna know more about anatomy than I ever will or would ever want to- but I can confirm that he certainly can't draw worth a crap because of it.
    It's much more difficult to get someone to comprehend the much harder truth of, "this artist's drawings are better than mine, because even though our levels of learned knowledge - putting facts on a page into our heads- may be similar, the level of diligence in practicing the basics is miles apart."


    Now, this doesn't mean that studying anatomy is pointless? Not at all. But you should know that it's not a panacea for drawing problems- that only if you "got it", finally you could do the work you always wanted. (If any of your favorite artists waited until they had the level of skill and knowledge they wished they had before producing work, they would never have become your favorite artists- because they never would have produced any work.)


    So presuming you've got construction/measuring/proportions/perspective down pat. What's further anatomical study good for?

    It's good for giving further articulation to a figure where it could benefit from it- a bent knee might just look like a rounded lumpy mess on a model, but knowing what lies underneath that model means you can enhance that area with some anatomical features that help strengthen the read and foreshortening of that area. I'm drawing a muscley superhero, but I only have a photo of my scrawny self for pose reference- having some anatomical knowledge will help fill that gap. I'm drawing thumbnails, and I want to be able to get across the idea of the various builds of these characters to sell the idea before I gather a bunch of ref, anatomy helps there. I'm posing a character and I want to make sure I'm not posing them in a way that would break their bones- it's helpful to have studied the range of motion that the joints and spine has (though the real-go-to for that is "can I get up from my desk and strike this pose without hurting myself?"- which pros will do, but which never seems to occur to the beginner.)

    Now to get into actual exercises (and I'm not going to say this is THE ONLY ONE AND TRUE METHOD OF BLAHBLAHBLAH), I appreciate this method of studying from the Bridgman anatomy book: http://deadoftheday.blogspot.com/2009/07/perspiration-anatomy.html
    Reason being, Bridgman's take on anatomy is not based on the "here are super-accurate diagrams and descriptions that serve little function other than to intimidate you" that you see in the aforementioned Goldfinger book. Rather, he makes a point of grouping muscles into big masses acting out simple, mechanical functions- simple enough to be understood and used by an artist. Also, he presents anatomy with real poses and in perspective- flat diagrams often leave one with little sense of the actual form of a muscle or bone, making the information difficult to actually use in practice.
    Taking the further step of not just copying them, but then taking them a step further by drawing out how what he's talking about would look like if light and shade were applied, helps reinforce the actual understanding of the shape. (Other exercises that you could do in addition is drawing out the forms in a wireframe cross-contour type drawing to describe the form. Or you could draw a second drawing next to it- 'I've drawn the pose he drew- but what will this look like if this figure raised his leg by 15 degrees? Or bend the thigh outward? I am going to draw those imagined poses to ensure I understand the volumes at work here from all angles.")
    Then, by using photo reference a base, you can then practice how to apply that knowledge to further articulate and enhance the read a figure.

    Now, does that mean, go do that once, or even copy out that whole Bridgman book in one heroic effort, and congrats you'll know anatomy? Sadly, no- you look at those drawings Erik Gist has made there- those are the drawings of someone who has been doing studies like that for 10 years, on top of regular figure drawing study and doing regular illustration work. He can do work like that because he doesn't think he's ever going to be "done" with practice and study- someone that makes the practice a habit, and not something to just 'get through' before he can do the 'real' work he wants to do.

    Anatomy is there as a tool to help him with the work that he wants to do, NOT a roadblock to PREVENT him from doing that work, which is the way you seem to be viewing it. Let your work inform how and what you practice, then let your practice help inform your work.

    tynicPeasIrukaacadiaProspicience
  • IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    Going back to simple shapes and studying those once you've learned a thing or two is my favorite way to study, personally. I'd consider myself to still be a weak draftsman, but putting the time into improving my confidence rendering simple shapes in space is always what makes me feel like I've made applicable improvement. I try to mix in just drawing some objects from observation when I can. Personally, I'm setting goals to just go back to perspective for the next few years, which is generally my timeline for learning shit now that I don't have infinite time like I did in school.

    Anyway, the reason simple shapes and still life drawing can be so effective is that it's generally easier to see those mistakes in simple objects that are static and familiar to everybody, rather than in things that have a lot of variety and organic movement. Drawing a bottle or whatever at different angles seems boring and produces not super fun to share results, but in the end it is one of the easier ways to teach yourself to slow down and actually look at things.

    Looking back at your 2016 thread, it seems like this is something you are doing off and on which is great. The challenge as a self-taught artist is to take that as seriously as you do attempting a finished painting or drawing a face, really thinking about if you've drawn something accurately even though its simple.

    Peasacadiatynic
  • PeasPeas Registered User regular
    edited January 28
    Thanks for taking your time to write out so much advice for me again Angel of Bacon, I am always really grateful for it. Also thanks Iruka for checking out my old thread and the advices too. I am getting pretty desperate at this point of time, it has been so many years and I am going around in circles. The mental roadblock is killing my attempts at creating and I know it but at the same time I still find it really hard to get over it because my skills are objectively shite, especially with my painting, to the point of not being able to bring myself to even paint anymore. I really need something to grab a foothold of before this fear devours me completely from the inside.

    Peas on
    tylvh4k5gys0.gif
  • IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    I hear good things about the book "Art and Fear" for dealing with some of those hurtles, I've not read it myself though.

    As I settle into my adult life, its been really hard but important for me to adjust my expectations for how quickly I can go from learning->understanding->applying, which used to be a faster process when I could draw all day. Its now slower that I only have few hours a day to doodle, and that's perfectly okay, its not a race.

    I do think its hard to be completely self taught and you might find some camaraderie in taking a class on the basics, if you never have.

    DoodmannBroloPeas
  • PeasPeas Registered User regular
    edited January 29
    Edit: Gonna try and revive my art this year

    Peas on
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  • FlayFlay Registered User regular
    Late but thank you so much for the portfolio feedback guys! I'm going to work on some more specifically design-oriented stuff, and cut out the unnecessary things.

    RE: Art anxiety, this has been a huge problem for me too. I've made a lot of strides recently through doing the schoolism colour and light course. Not I think necessarily because of the content of the course (although that has been helpful), but because for the later exercises I've been giving myself a shortish deadline, just getting through the exercise then moving on to the next exercise, whether or not I did a good job. I'll probably need to revisit those exercises but I find having that rhythm has made me a lot more comfortable taking on my own projects and then just moving on when they don't work out.

    DoodmannPeasProspicience
  • PeasPeas Registered User regular
    edited February 4
    Edit: wait nvm

    Peas on
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