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A Thread 4 Talking About the F4nt4stic 4

2

Posts

  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    Kamala Khan is a good modern comparison. She exists within her family system as a daughter and all that implies, but a daughter isn't all that she is. She IS Muslim and she IS a devoted daughter, but she's also a geek, a fanfic writer, a teenager, a superhero fangirl, an Inhuman, a superhero herself, an overachiever, etc. Even her superpowers give her a variety of ways to fight, including brute force. It's a benefit of having your own solo title, I think, because the book gives you plenty of space to explore all aspects of her character.

    In an ensemble title, it's harder to do that but still possible because then you get the benefit of contrast between characters to emphasize certain traits. The issue with both Jean and Sue, though, is that the primary thing that contrasted them from the others was their gender. And that meant that all the characterization that was ever needed was "girl".

    Even when Lee and Kirby were still running X-men, the male characters all had emerging personalities. Scott as the overprotective stoic leader. Warren as the handsome rich aristocrat. Bobby as the joker/quipper. Hank as the nerd with refined tastes.

    Jean was never given any such personality because her distinguishing characteristic was "woman". That's all that was needed for a very very long time. And even decades later, it still shows.


    You could even argue that Scott was harmed even moreso by writer's living out their fantasies through Scott and Jean as a couple, and it took Morrison doing a taboo(Having Scott cheat on Jean with Emma) to even begin to undo the damage to Scott's character, and at least giving people the opprotunity to start writing Jean, and to stop writing an ideal girlfriend.

    Hilariously, only Bendis has tried.

    I'd say Sue would have to have something as earth-shattering(Reed dying/lost, Maybe even actually cheating on Reed with Namor) to hit the "reset" button with her character.



  • RingoRingo Stardust, Golden Caught in a Devil's BargainRegistered User regular
    Strangely the All New X-Men example of simply bringing a different (time period/dimension/whatever) non-mom, non-wife, Sue into current continuity would be a really easy way to reinvigorate her character. Have normal Sue be her mentor even, but let her make choices about her life that aren't tied to mistakes made by writers past

    ceres wrote: »
    I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread before I feel any worse about humanity.
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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Ringo wrote: »
    It would be kind of interesting if, instead of the constant "Kids are in danger from supervillains, parents must save them!" it was "Kids are in danger of growing up to be shitty people with powers, parents must save them!"

    Like, explaining to your superpowered child how the whole great power, great responsibility thing works and modeling it and then consoling them when things don't go their way even though they have superpowers... I think I'd dig that a lot.

    And of course there's the flip side to being the kid in powered family - basically becoming the "Mom's out saving the world, nuke yourself some dinner" latch key kid and balancing helping other people with committing to your family

    Let me tell you about Sky High.......

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  • RingoRingo Stardust, Golden Caught in a Devil's BargainRegistered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Ringo wrote: »
    It would be kind of interesting if, instead of the constant "Kids are in danger from supervillains, parents must save them!" it was "Kids are in danger of growing up to be shitty people with powers, parents must save them!"

    Like, explaining to your superpowered child how the whole great power, great responsibility thing works and modeling it and then consoling them when things don't go their way even though they have superpowers... I think I'd dig that a lot.

    And of course there's the flip side to being the kid in powered family - basically becoming the "Mom's out saving the world, nuke yourself some dinner" latch key kid and balancing helping other people with committing to your family

    Let me tell you about Sky High.......

    Someday I should watch it?

    ceres wrote: »
    I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread before I feel any worse about humanity.
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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Off-topic but oh my yes you absolutely should.

    For so, so many reasons. It's very good. Go watch it.

    Is Hickman's F4 run somewhere you can just pick up if you know more or less nothing about them? I don't mind starting off waist-deep, but I don't want to start in the middle of too much.

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  • The Hanged ManThe Hanged Man Once I ate a pizza so big, they gave me a prize. Then I threw up and they took it back.Registered User regular
    I was digging through my old comics a couple weeks ago, looking for stuff I could share with my nephew, who is finally emerging from his Naruto-and-only-Naruto phase and becoming willing to experiment with other media.

    Anyway, one box was labeled "Misc. 90's", and according to the inventory sheet contained stuff that I hadn't really followed month to month, but had picked up an issue of here and there, usually when it crossed over with something else. I was curious what other treasures it might hold, because the box felt heavier than what the inventory sheet listed. So I cracked it open and was greeted by Sue Storm's "iconic" swimsuit costume with the 4-Shaped Boob Window.

    I then closed that box, and decided that my nephew didn't really need to know about comics in the 90's.

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    RingoTransporterMego ThorToxFencingsaxCilla BlackGokerz
  • RingoRingo Stardust, Golden Caught in a Devil's BargainRegistered User regular
    Ringo wrote: »
    Strangely the All New X-Men example of simply bringing a different (time period/dimension/whatever) non-mom, non-wife, Sue into current continuity would be a really easy way to reinvigorate her character. Have normal Sue be her mentor even, but let her make choices about her life that aren't tied to mistakes made by writers past

    Additional thought: Alternate Sue could actually go out with Namor! And learn that he's actually a total jackass and not worthy of her time! And we could be totally done with that crap forever!

    ceres wrote: »
    I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread before I feel any worse about humanity.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG now featured at the Exigency Forum
    Mego Thor
  • Mego ThorMego Thor "I say thee...NAY!" Registered User regular
    I was digging through my old comics a couple weeks ago, looking for stuff I could share with my nephew, who is finally emerging from his Naruto-and-only-Naruto phase and becoming willing to experiment with other media.

    Anyway, one box was labeled "Misc. 90's", and according to the inventory sheet contained stuff that I hadn't really followed month to month, but had picked up an issue of here and there, usually when it crossed over with something else. I was curious what other treasures it might hold, because the box felt heavier than what the inventory sheet listed. So I cracked it open and was greeted by Sue Storm's "iconic" swimsuit costume with the 4-Shaped Boob Window.

    I then closed that box, and decided that my nephew didn't really need to know about comics in the 90's.

    I'm impressed that you labeled and made up inventory sheets for your long boxes!

    kyrcl.png
  • OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel Shell, Teeth, Eyes, Flame, Claws, Breath, Scales, FUN!Registered User regular
    Ringo wrote: »
    Ringo wrote: »
    Strangely the All New X-Men example of simply bringing a different (time period/dimension/whatever) non-mom, non-wife, Sue into current continuity would be a really easy way to reinvigorate her character. Have normal Sue be her mentor even, but let her make choices about her life that aren't tied to mistakes made by writers past
    And we could be totally done with that crap forever!

    I'm not sure you're familiar with "comic books".

    Don't get it it twisted, I'm still cute as hell tho.
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited August 2015
    Ringo wrote: »
    Ringo wrote: »
    Strangely the All New X-Men example of simply bringing a different (time period/dimension/whatever) non-mom, non-wife, Sue into current continuity would be a really easy way to reinvigorate her character. Have normal Sue be her mentor even, but let her make choices about her life that aren't tied to mistakes made by writers past

    Additional thought: Alternate Sue could actually go out with Namor! And learn that he's actually a total jackass and not worthy of her time! And we could be totally done with that crap forever!

    That's never going to happen. Sue has made it plenty clear that she doesn't like Namor all that much. And yet, just like Jean and Wolverine, it keeps coming back, because at some point "No" apparently means "totes later"

    Fencingsax on
    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    Brolo wrote: »
    Vivixenne wrote: »

    It just seems to miss all the beats that are key to the Fantastic 4 for me. It's been raised that maybe there is NO formula wherein the Fantastic 4's story translates well into a movie, but somehow I doubt that. It actually almost seems like it'd fit a movie SO WELL that people are tripping over themselves with the available options.

    uyCcADfl.jpg

    This honestly seems like the movie that's truest to the F4's spirit.

    One of the best design features of that film is applying the superpowers to aspects of their personality.
    Helen is a mom who is stretched to the limit dealing with the family.
    Violet is a young shy teenager who feels like she's invisible and is defensive about her life.
    Dash is a rambunctious youth who is full of energy.
    Bob is a man pineing for the good old days, but putting on a strong face for his family.

    That's really why it works so well.

    NeoTomaFencingsaxdarunia106Solarjoshgotro
  • The Hanged ManThe Hanged Man Once I ate a pizza so big, they gave me a prize. Then I threw up and they took it back.Registered User regular
    Mego Thor wrote: »
    I was digging through my old comics a couple weeks ago, looking for stuff I could share with my nephew, who is finally emerging from his Naruto-and-only-Naruto phase and becoming willing to experiment with other media.

    Anyway, one box was labeled "Misc. 90's", and according to the inventory sheet contained stuff that I hadn't really followed month to month, but had picked up an issue of here and there, usually when it crossed over with something else. I was curious what other treasures it might hold, because the box felt heavier than what the inventory sheet listed. So I cracked it open and was greeted by Sue Storm's "iconic" swimsuit costume with the 4-Shaped Boob Window.

    I then closed that box, and decided that my nephew didn't really need to know about comics in the 90's.

    I'm impressed that you labeled and made up inventory sheets for your long boxes!

    Honestly, my comics spent most of their time in big precarious stacks in my room. I only got them properly organized as a passive-aggressive stab at my mom just before I left for college, like saying "if you try to throw any of this out, I'll know."

    Except for all the ones where I made up code-names for things and deliberately misfiled them in the middle of some other set of unrelated books, because I didn't want written record that 16-year-old me had bought the Lady Death Lingerie Christmas Special or whatever.

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    Ringo
  • Mego ThorMego Thor "I say thee...NAY!" Registered User regular
    Mego Thor wrote: »
    I was digging through my old comics a couple weeks ago, looking for stuff I could share with my nephew, who is finally emerging from his Naruto-and-only-Naruto phase and becoming willing to experiment with other media.

    Anyway, one box was labeled "Misc. 90's", and according to the inventory sheet contained stuff that I hadn't really followed month to month, but had picked up an issue of here and there, usually when it crossed over with something else. I was curious what other treasures it might hold, because the box felt heavier than what the inventory sheet listed. So I cracked it open and was greeted by Sue Storm's "iconic" swimsuit costume with the 4-Shaped Boob Window.

    I then closed that box, and decided that my nephew didn't really need to know about comics in the 90's.

    I'm impressed that you labeled and made up inventory sheets for your long boxes!

    Honestly, my comics spent most of their time in big precarious stacks in my room. I only got them properly organized as a passive-aggressive stab at my mom just before I left for college, like saying "if you try to throw any of this out, I'll know."

    Except for all the ones where I made up code-names for things and deliberately misfiled them in the middle of some other set of unrelated books, because I didn't want written record that 16-year-old me had bought the Lady Death Lingerie Christmas Special or whatever.

    And yet, here it is, immortalized on the internet. :P

    kyrcl.png
    Ringo
  • chiasaur11chiasaur11 Never doubt a raccoon. Registered User regular
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    Kamala Khan is a good modern comparison. She exists within her family system as a daughter and all that implies, but a daughter isn't all that she is. She IS Muslim and she IS a devoted daughter, but she's also a geek, a fanfic writer, a teenager, a superhero fangirl, an Inhuman, a superhero herself, an overachiever, etc. Even her superpowers give her a variety of ways to fight, including brute force. It's a benefit of having your own solo title, I think, because the book gives you plenty of space to explore all aspects of her character.

    In an ensemble title, it's harder to do that but still possible because then you get the benefit of contrast between characters to emphasize certain traits. The issue with both Jean and Sue, though, is that the primary thing that contrasted them from the others was their gender. And that meant that all the characterization that was ever needed was "girl".

    Even when Lee and Kirby were still running X-men, the male characters all had emerging personalities. Scott as the overprotective stoic leader. Warren as the handsome rich aristocrat. Bobby as the joker/quipper. Hank as the nerd with refined tastes.

    Jean was never given any such personality because her distinguishing characteristic was "woman". That's all that was needed for a very very long time. And even decades later, it still shows.


    You could even argue that Scott was harmed even moreso by writer's living out their fantasies through Scott and Jean as a couple, and it took Morrison doing a taboo(Having Scott cheat on Jean with Emma) to even begin to undo the damage to Scott's character, and at least giving people the opprotunity to start writing Jean, and to stop writing an ideal girlfriend.

    Hilariously, only Bendis has tried.

    I'd say Sue would have to have something as earth-shattering(Reed dying/lost, Maybe even actually cheating on Reed with Namor) to hit the "reset" button with her character.

    Reed was dead for a couple years in the 90s. Didn't really help Sue's character much. Then again, it was the 90s.

    I agree it's a problem, but I'm not sure what the best approach would be to handle it.

    Putting Sue on the Avengers without Reed honestly strikes me as a pretty solid idea to at least get a shot at it. I mean, Reed's maybe my favorite superhero, but we know Reed. Reed has been covered.

    (For what it's worth, from my very limited angle, it seems like another problem is that Sue has a harder time picking up interesting flaws. People see the shitty way she got treated in Lee and Kirby's run, and want to be careful not to make her look worse, so she doesn't get nearly as many chances to be interesting. It's a shame.)

  • RainfallRainfall Dungeon Queen Registered User regular
    edited August 2015
    I don't really enjoy the Fantastic 4.

    I mean, I've read Hickman's run, and I see them pop up here and there, and I guess I like Ben Grimm a lot and Johnny make a great partner for Spider-Man, but they don't grab my attention at all as a group. They function too well as a team, both in personalities and power/ability sets, and they've been around for too long, which means that any team conflict they can come up with has been rehashed real thorough like.

    For Sue, she needs her own comic and adventures with other people to ground her as a character outside of the First Family before bringing her back in. Johnny, Ben, and Reed have all had major chances to shine outside of the F4 and Sue got what, a couple issues with the Lady Liberators? I never see her pop up in Avengers or X-Men without her being there for Reed.

    What I'd love to see, with Reed hanging out in all the big Event Comics, Ben going Cosmic with the Guardians, and Johnny bumping into Spider-Man and the Avengers so frequently, would be Sue hitting up Asgard.

    I mean, she's the Perfect Mom, and right now the Asgard Royal Family is fucked up. Asgard lacks any SuperGenius characters, and Sue is absolutely brilliant. Asgard is full of cosmically powerful characters and threats, Sue can hold her own there.

    It gets her out of a comfort zone and into a place she can shine.

    I'd read that shit. I'd read any Sue solo series, but Sue in Asgard would be amazing.

    Rainfall on
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    I'm actually quite curious to see where they go with the F4 post-SW, given all the stuff going on surrounding them

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  • RainfallRainfall Dungeon Queen Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    I'm actually quite curious to see where they go with the F4 post-SW, given all the stuff going on surrounding them

    No kidding. Has anything been announced beyond Ben joining up with the Guardians?

  • chiasaur11chiasaur11 Never doubt a raccoon. Registered User regular
    Rainfall wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    I'm actually quite curious to see where they go with the F4 post-SW, given all the stuff going on surrounding them

    No kidding. Has anything been announced beyond Ben joining up with the Guardians?

    Johnny's hanging out with the Inhumans and dating Medusa.

    Reed, Sue, Franklin, and Val are all unknowns at the moment.

  • NaphtaliNaphtali Null Registered User regular
    chiasaur11 wrote: »
    Rainfall wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    I'm actually quite curious to see where they go with the F4 post-SW, given all the stuff going on surrounding them

    No kidding. Has anything been announced beyond Ben joining up with the Guardians?

    Johnny's hanging out with the Inhumans and dating Medusa.

    Reed, Sue, Franklin, and Val are all unknowns at the moment.

    But what about Herbie?

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  • chiasaur11chiasaur11 Never doubt a raccoon. Registered User regular
    Naphtali wrote: »
    chiasaur11 wrote: »
    Rainfall wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    I'm actually quite curious to see where they go with the F4 post-SW, given all the stuff going on surrounding them

    No kidding. Has anything been announced beyond Ben joining up with the Guardians?

    Johnny's hanging out with the Inhumans and dating Medusa.

    Reed, Sue, Franklin, and Val are all unknowns at the moment.

    But what about Herbie?

    God-king of Earth.

    Olivaw
  • Mego ThorMego Thor "I say thee...NAY!" Registered User regular
    Herbie is posing as a Doombot so Reed always knows what Doom is up too.

    kyrcl.png
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Mego Thor wrote: »
    I was digging through my old comics a couple weeks ago, looking for stuff I could share with my nephew, who is finally emerging from his Naruto-and-only-Naruto phase and becoming willing to experiment with other media.

    Anyway, one box was labeled "Misc. 90's", and according to the inventory sheet contained stuff that I hadn't really followed month to month, but had picked up an issue of here and there, usually when it crossed over with something else. I was curious what other treasures it might hold, because the box felt heavier than what the inventory sheet listed. So I cracked it open and was greeted by Sue Storm's "iconic" swimsuit costume with the 4-Shaped Boob Window.

    I then closed that box, and decided that my nephew didn't really need to know about comics in the 90's.

    I'm impressed that you labeled and made up inventory sheets for your long boxes!

    Not everyone does that!?

  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Naphtali wrote: »
    chiasaur11 wrote: »
    Rainfall wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    I'm actually quite curious to see where they go with the F4 post-SW, given all the stuff going on surrounding them

    No kidding. Has anything been announced beyond Ben joining up with the Guardians?

    Johnny's hanging out with the Inhumans and dating Medusa.

    Reed, Sue, Franklin, and Val are all unknowns at the moment.

    But what about Herbie?

    The plump lump?

    THE FAT FURY?!

  • OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel Shell, Teeth, Eyes, Flame, Claws, Breath, Scales, FUN!Registered User regular
    chiasaur11 wrote: »
    Rainfall wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    I'm actually quite curious to see where they go with the F4 post-SW, given all the stuff going on surrounding them

    No kidding. Has anything been announced beyond Ben joining up with the Guardians?

    Johnny's hanging out with the Inhumans and dating Medusa.

    Reed, Sue, Franklin, and Val are all unknowns at the moment.

    Hopefully adventuring around as the new official Fantastic Four, ala The Incredibles.

    Don't get it it twisted, I'm still cute as hell tho.
  • Mr.SunshineMr.Sunshine Registered User regular
    chiasaur11 wrote: »
    Rainfall wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    I'm actually quite curious to see where they go with the F4 post-SW, given all the stuff going on surrounding them

    No kidding. Has anything been announced beyond Ben joining up with the Guardians?

    Johnny's hanging out with the Inhumans and dating Medusa.

    Reed, Sue, Franklin, and Val are all unknowns at the moment.

    Hopefully adventuring around as the new official Fantastic Four, ala The Incredibles.

    Wouldn't Sue basically still be the "Just Mom" of the group? She needs to do some solo work for a bit, IMHO. She's still in the S.H.I.E.L.D club, right?

  • OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel Shell, Teeth, Eyes, Flame, Claws, Breath, Scales, FUN!Registered User regular
    chiasaur11 wrote: »
    Rainfall wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    I'm actually quite curious to see where they go with the F4 post-SW, given all the stuff going on surrounding them

    No kidding. Has anything been announced beyond Ben joining up with the Guardians?

    Johnny's hanging out with the Inhumans and dating Medusa.

    Reed, Sue, Franklin, and Val are all unknowns at the moment.

    Hopefully adventuring around as the new official Fantastic Four, ala The Incredibles.

    Wouldn't Sue basically still be the "Just Mom" of the group? She needs to do some solo work for a bit, IMHO. She's still in the S.H.I.E.L.D club, right?

    ...No? I mean, she could be but the writer could also, you know, give her things to do that are wholly her own? The idea that she's nothing more than a "mother" when in her family unit is the exact kind of sandboxing/oversimplifying we were talking about earlier. It's not like she has to be on her own for a period of time in order to become more well-rounded. You can just write her better.

    Don't get it it twisted, I'm still cute as hell tho.
    Harry Dresden
  • Mr.SunshineMr.Sunshine Registered User regular
    chiasaur11 wrote: »
    Rainfall wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    I'm actually quite curious to see where they go with the F4 post-SW, given all the stuff going on surrounding them

    No kidding. Has anything been announced beyond Ben joining up with the Guardians?

    Johnny's hanging out with the Inhumans and dating Medusa.

    Reed, Sue, Franklin, and Val are all unknowns at the moment.

    Hopefully adventuring around as the new official Fantastic Four, ala The Incredibles.

    Wouldn't Sue basically still be the "Just Mom" of the group? She needs to do some solo work for a bit, IMHO. She's still in the S.H.I.E.L.D club, right?

    ...No? I mean, she could be but the writer could also, you know, give her things to do that are wholly her own? The idea that she's nothing more than a "mother" when in her family unit is the exact kind of sandboxing/oversimplifying we were talking about earlier. It's not like she has to be on her own for a period of time in order to become more well-rounded. You can just write her better.

    True. It's just that with her family would be right there and whoever is writing would have to balance things out. Too much and she's "Just Mom" too little and she a "terrible mother!". If she starts out on her own but then it gradually goes back to her family, people would see more Susan. I dunno, yeah, it definitely depends on the writer. There can be a FF4 story with Sue doing things that are wholly her own and there can also be a Sue Richard/Invisible Woman story that leads back to the FF4.

    I'd totally like to see both. It might be easier to write her solo but that's just my opinion and I'm not a writer.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    I love Sue Storm.

    Sue Storm is not a good female comic book character.

    And that is 100% not the character's fault. Sue Storm is a victim of her history, more than anything.

    She was originally characterized as a damsel in distress trope, before being eventually written off as Reed Richard's spouse, because of course your hot action hero should marry the other single not monster not brother member of the group.

    This was all set in stone WAY before the powers that be realized that, "Holy shit, this is all regressive as HELL". So the tried everything. They tried to make her sexy(HELLO 90's), they buffed up her power set, they made her the heart of the team.

    But probably most damaging thing, in the end, is that they made her a Mom.

    I'm not saying that mom's are not intristically bad characters. I'm not saying that a mom can't be a good character.

    But I ask, how many comic writer's are ACTUALLY mother's?

    How many comic writer's can write around the platonic idea of a mother that nearly every human being has, even IF their own mother's were terrible?

    When you characterize a mother, specifically, when you want to portray a mother, the desire to write that platonic ideal basically overrides any other desire of the story you may or may not want to portray.

    This is embodied in Namor. Every husband's fear is, "She'll find a hotter guy and leave me!". So what's Namor? A hot dude that relentlessly pursue's Sue Storm who's also a King and amazing.

    But she never leaves Reed, her lovable nerd man, she never cheats on him, because she's married, and she wouldn't be a good MOTHER. MOTHER'S DON'T CHEAT ON THEIR HUSBANDS THEY ARE ALWAYS FAITHFUL NO MATTER THE SITUATION.

    There's a, dare I say, PRIMAL fear not to portray a mother as anything else but an angelic force of good, better than all of their surroundings and always adhearing to the mother's code of perfection. Because if you DON'T, you open up to the possiblity that this mother, may also in fact be a WOMAN and a human being.

    No lie, sometimes I feel like the people who write comic book moms are just projecting their individual ideas of what makes a "perfect wife" and "perfect mom" into characters like Sue. It's also why they've struggled to write her ANY OTHER WAY, because they are actually writing about the mother they wished they had, or the mother they believe they had, or something. It's actually SUPER obvious once you know to look for it.

    I'd call this the Jean Grey Problem.

    Only Sue predates Jean by a bit. So I guess it is totally the Sue Storm Problem.

    Sue's more intriguing than Jean ever was.
    It's really one of the challenges where so many characters we read were created so long ago. You have characters whose back stories go back to 1961 and personality traits/features just get baked into them. You don't see many of the TV shows from 1961 trying to come up with new stories or stay relevant today. I'm pretty sure Donna Reed 2015 or the All New Dick Van Dyke show aren't coming on CBS this fall. It's hard to expect natural feeling growth from characters established so long ago.

    Her powers by themselves are sort of sexist and mom styled. She can hide and protect. It feels a lot like when I tried reading the early X-Men books and the guys are strong and gymnasts and the girl has mental powers that make her not need to fight.

    I wonder what the reaction would be to completely re-do F4. Kind of like what they are doing with Archie. Just pretend the old stuff doesn't exist, take the character names and some traits (like Thing still being some form of rock based) but change the roles and personality types around significantly.

    That may have been true when she was first created, not so these days. Green Lantern isn't weak, and she does exactly what the GL rings do, without a limit. Invisibility hasn't been her defining power as long as I'v read her, it's her constructs - which are incredibly diverse in structure from creating platforms for her to "fly", shields, weapons like swords and she killed a Celestial with a construct once. In Claremont's run he had her trained by Iron Fist, and she was good enough at unarmed martial arts to give him a decent workout while holding back. Which is pretty impressive. It isn't about their powers, it's how they're written, and Sue is an amazing character when written right. She's the one member of the team this side of Reed you don't want to be on the bad side with.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Never do what your enemy expects you to do! Registered User regular
    chiasaur11 wrote: »
    Rainfall wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    I'm actually quite curious to see where they go with the F4 post-SW, given all the stuff going on surrounding them

    No kidding. Has anything been announced beyond Ben joining up with the Guardians?

    Johnny's hanging out with the Inhumans and dating Medusa.

    Reed, Sue, Franklin, and Val are all unknowns at the moment.

    Bleeding Cool (who, it must be stated, has a vested interest in continuing their 'Marvel hates the Fantastic Four' narrative) had a spoiler about that
    In the same rumor that said the Thing was going to be on the Guardians (which seems to have panned out) also said Reed and Sue would be leaving any ongoing books due to being in in mourning. And given how the rumor didn't say anything about Val and Franklin, it's not too big of a leap to guess what they'd be in mourning for.

    I think it's BS though. Especially since Bleeding Cool is now saying "Well, they could have a new Fantastic Four comic in November, though that's totally only because it's past the movie's time in theaters and not because its smack dab in the middle of the post-Secret wars relaunch window."

  • Mego ThorMego Thor "I say thee...NAY!" Registered User regular
    No way they write out Val and Franklin. If this last movie bomb has showed up anything, it's that grim (except for Ben) and gritty need to stay far away from the FF. Comics need at least one happy family; I say let it be them.

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  • ZonugalZonugal "I am burdened with glorious purpose." Registered User regular
    I think pulling in some sitcom elements for Reed & Sue could help revitalize their characterization.

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  • VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited August 2015
    As a huge fan of Claire/Phil I must agree.

    But I did like something someone else pointed out in the SE thread, which is for Sue's role on the team to be the poetic dream and moral compass. As in, the Captain America. I feel like that would totally suit her air-bubble-in-brain potential, too, because you then have a character with the potential to violently shut down opposition but chooses not to because that's not the way to make meaningful or lasting change, or to inspire others.

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    Tox
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    A+ thread title right there.

    My immediate question is, I've read (and loved) the following comics:
    - Matt Fraction's Hawkeye (most of it, at least)
    - Jason Aaron's Thor
    - Ms Marvel (first trade of current run)
    - Secret Wars (current run)

    Based on that, is there a good jumping off point if I wanted to check out the F4?

    I'd considering grabbing the Ultimate F4, just because why not and also it's somewhat modernized? And also also because Maker looks to be moving to the main universe as a villain.

    IF you want to get old school, pick up the first thirty issues of Byrne's run (FF #232-262). That run has:

    1) The issue that should be the prototype for a future FF movie (issue #236)
    2) Three of the best Doctor Doom stories ever told (#247, #257, #258-261)
    3) The definitive Sue Storm story (#245)
    4) "Everyone Vs Galactus" (#242-244)
    5) A series of done-in-one Negative Zone adventures (#251-256)
    6) some fun slice-of-life in the Marvel U stories (Inhumans in FF 240, Black Panther in 241)
    7) one of the best Skrull infiltration stories in the MU (#249-250)
    8) some really weird Twilight Zone style exploration stories (#234-235, #237, #239, #248)

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  • VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited August 2015
    Dude is a piece of work. I haven't seen his other movie and I don't intend to see this one, so I don't have a lot of reference for his style or skill as a director. Be curious to know what work he does get after this.

    Fox isn't blameless though. They wanted a gritty edgy F4 movie when that just isn't a thing that should or needs to exist.

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  • TexiKenTexiKen I don't want your life, I don't owe you shit and I hate your rules, so get out of my roomRegistered User regular
    The problem I see with the FF in terms of making them relevant (until Hickman) has always been they suffer the most out of creator changes. It happens all the time on stuff when a new person comes onboard, things move back to a starting point, but with the 4 it resets hard all the time. Just from Heroes Return on, Lobdell lead to Claremont easily enough, Pacheco and Loeb paid a little lip service to it, Waid started over twice basically because there was the Marvel Knights stuff, JMS, Millar and Hitch...

    I think what really is the problem is because of the starting point, you have to establish them at their core, which is the four +2 now, before you do something else, whereas with Avengers and X-Men you can simply switch out the characters at the drop of a hat every creative shuffle.

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  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    I'm actually quite curious to see where they go with the F4 post-SW, given all the stuff going on surrounding them

    I cannot imagine that they'd just drop the story after Val and Franklin were tricked into thinking Doom was their father and was married to Sue. That's a huge staple of the background in the Secret Wars, and Val is practically in every story to one extent or another.

  • VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    The problem I see with the FF in terms of making them relevant (until Hickman) has always been they suffer the most out of creator changes. It happens all the time on stuff when a new person comes onboard, things move back to a starting point, but with the 4 it resets hard all the time. Just from Heroes Return on, Lobdell lead to Claremont easily enough, Pacheco and Loeb paid a little lip service to it, Waid started over twice basically because there was the Marvel Knights stuff, JMS, Millar and Hitch...

    I think what really is the problem is because of the starting point, you have to establish them at their core, which is the four +2 now, before you do something else, whereas with Avengers and X-Men you can simply switch out the characters at the drop of a hat every creative shuffle.

    This definitely rings true for me. Of all the superhero teams and ensembles, this one is more or less fixed. Some occasional subs but your starting lineup really doesn't change because then it's not REALLY the F4 anymore.

    And because of Reed's broader stories across 616 and beyond, he inevitably gets sucked into crossover events and the F4 dynamic is really compromised because of that. Like the build up to Civil War was basically Reed Reed Reed and Reed, which interestingly is why Hickman came on board to restore some semblance of a family story.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited August 2015
    Vivixenne wrote: »

    Where's this in the time line? It contradicts this tweet he made before it opened.

    http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/07/fantastic-four-josh-trank-tweet
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    Dude is a piece of work. I haven't seen his other movie and I don't intend to see this one, so I don't have a lot of reference for his style or skill as a director. Be curious to know what work he does get after this.

    Chronicle is fantastic. He may not be suited to FF, but if he wasn't interfered with I'd have liked to see what he did.
    Fox isn't blameless though. They wanted a gritty edgy F4 movie when that just isn't a thing that should or needs to exist.

    And threw him out of the process, gutted his movie (including action scenes) and reshot scenes. The final act is likely their doing, not Trank's. You can tell the scenes that were reshot with Sue's wig.

    http://www.flickeringmyth.com/2015/08/sources-say-fox-cut-3-big-action-scenes-from-fantastic-four-days-before-production-and-kept-josh-trank-out-of-the-editing-room.html
    TexiKen wrote: »
    The problem I see with the FF in terms of making them relevant (until Hickman) has always been they suffer the most out of creator changes. It happens all the time on stuff when a new person comes onboard, things move back to a starting point, but with the 4 it resets hard all the time. Just from Heroes Return on, Lobdell lead to Claremont easily enough, Pacheco and Loeb paid a little lip service to it, Waid started over twice basically because there was the Marvel Knights stuff, JMS, Millar and Hitch...

    That's standard with comics, nothing unusual here. The FF have a solid foundation in Marvel.
    I think what really is the problem is because of the starting point, you have to establish them at their core, which is the four +2 now, before you do something else, whereas with Avengers and X-Men you can simply switch out the characters at the drop of a hat every creative shuffle.

    That should be easiest part to get right, and the Tim Story was the closest in feel - and Corman's. However, it falls apart because they want to reinvent them in ways that don't make any sense, adding stupid shit, ignoring how incredible the characters are and being terrible movies. That's where they fail. They're not difficult characters/arch-types to grasp. X-men and Avengers reshuffle which can succeed or fail depending on the tone, the writers skill, how characters get along and the mission statement. The latter is why Bendis' rebranding for Avengers was polarizing.

    Harry Dresden on
  • ZavianZavian Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Registered User regular
    edited August 2015
    Guys, this argument about Sue Storm has happened before.
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    You see, Sue Storm is important because...
    she's just like Abraham Lincoln's mother...??
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    Zavian on
    Steam - PSN: Zavian2099
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