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    3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    So shaman still generally regard as bad huh? That sucks because the new class cards are so good.

    What is holding the class back, exactly? Is it still just overload stymying the late game?

    Bad draw mechanics, overload sucks as a mechanic, too many RNG cards, hero power is too random and has too few good synergies.

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    djFindusdjFindus Registered User regular
    webber wrote: »
    So shaman still generally regard as bad huh? That sucks because the new class cards are so good.

    What is holding the class back, exactly? Is it still just overload stymying the late game?

    One of the big things is lack of efficient draw mechanics.

    Lack of draw and lack of efficient AoE (i e without randomness AND overload) imho

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    MuffinatronMuffinatron Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    3clipse wrote: »
    overload sucks as a mechanic

    Amen.

    You can do some good catch-up moves as Shaman, only to be unable to keep up again the next turn because you're deprived of x mana from overload.

    Like what was the point of me doing that catch-up turn?

    Muffinatron on
    PSN: Holy-Promethium
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    3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    Overload might be okay if there were lots of good overload synergy cards, but as it stands there's just 1 minion that's a very mediocre 3 drop if it doesn't pump and 1 very sub par removal spell. Not enough to justify how badly overload can screw you, imo.

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    The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular

    that'd be funny if that deck wasn't already stupid good from 2x Elekk, a Highmane and a Kraken, plus a healthy number of strong 2-drops.

    9uiytxaqj2j0.jpg
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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    nah it's still funny

    liEt3nH.png
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    OnTheLastCastleOnTheLastCastle let's keep it haimish for the peripatetic Registered User regular
    still funny, can confirm

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    chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    So shaman still generally regard as bad huh? That sucks because the new class cards are so good.

    What is holding the class back, exactly? Is it still just overload stymying the late game?

    If I had to boil it down to one issue, it would be that overload is overvalued. The idea (as I see it) would be that overload is the penalty to have low cost super-effective cards. However, because the most used overload cards (new totem, lightning storm) don't give the advantage enough to offset the overload. Take lightning storm, it can be an effective board clear for cheap on the turn you use it, but if you can't take advantage of it that turn, it loses its cost effectiveness. So, if say there's just 1 3 health minion that doesn't get killed (50% chance), then its that much harder to get enough value out of it to justify the overload.

    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
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    CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    edited September 2015
    Lightning Storm was a good card before every minion people played summoned another minion.

    All of the (many) games you lose as mill druid are worth it to make a priest choke on his northshires.

    Coinage on
    Happiness is within reach!
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    CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    I always shoot myself with Lava Shock on my phone and have to concede.

    Its always at critical moments, such as playing Malygos, and its always Lava Shock.

    3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
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    SensationalSensational Registered User regular
    Shaman's only problem is that it hasn't kept up in class card quality relative to other classes. That's it.

    It used to be a solid class that specialized in early board control and late game burst. Unfortunately some classes have gotten much better tools for board control, while others have become much better at drawing into a stronger burst while controlling early board.

    Meanwhile shaman's been receiving these weird cards that are neither here nor there. Some mediocre overload-related cards. Murlocs. Now totem stuff. It just hasn't kept up with the times.

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    chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    Well, its gotten better with TGT, but maybe lower-middle of the pack. I think its currently in a better spot than rogue, but maybe thats not saying much?

    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
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    EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    using the 4 mana cheat spell to get malygos into play and then throw down frost shocks and other cheap spells is a ton of fun. but the stars only align every like 20 games because everything else just runs over it.

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    MadPenMadPen San DiegoRegistered User regular
    I went on a 14->18 tilt. Got back in the game with face hunter. Now I'm at 14 and running into a LOT of Secrets paladins. Now, assuming I'm now playing a dragon paladin (which I am), how does one counter them? They crush me. As a paladin do I mulligan for equality and consecration any time I see another paladin in this meta?

    On a happier note, playing dragon paladin..opponent drops deathlord on turn 3. I take it out with my board and weapon and get Ysera. He had no removal and didn't concede. It was a slaughter.

    3DS: 4098-4243-6127
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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    you need minions on the board early so look for your minibot, muster, adn knife juggler if you run those (which I think you should in any pally, at least the first 2)

    waste his secrets and have enough of a board or solid removal in hand to deal with the turn 6 challenger and all the secrets it provides (and the 2/1 it leaves behind, remember the 6/6 will be a 9/8 if it's the only minion on board when played)

    hope he doesn't follow up with another one or a dr boom unless you've maintained board through all of that

    equality/consecrate should be helpful, I'd think, but I'm not sure you want to mulligan for it or you'll get run over.


    this is all just the basic way to beat it that I've found. I haven't played pally against it though.

    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
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    MadPenMadPen San DiegoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2015
    Variable wrote: »
    you need minions on the board early so look for your minibot, muster, adn knife juggler if you run those (which I think you should in any pally, at least the first 2)

    waste his secrets and have enough of a board or solid removal in hand to deal with the turn 6 challenger and all the secrets it provides (and the 2/1 it leaves behind, remember the 6/6 will be a 9/8 if it's the only minion on board when played)

    hope he doesn't follow up with another one or a dr boom unless you've maintained board through all of that

    equality/consecrate should be helpful, I'd think, but I'm not sure you want to mulligan for it or you'll get run over.


    this is all just the basic way to beat it that I've found. I haven't played pally against it though.

    Problem with dragon paly is there's no board on turn 6 except against a VERY slow deck. Maybe if you're super lucky in this matchup you'll have a 3/5 and 5/5 and he'll have nothing or a 1/1. Not enough against effectively a 2/1 you HAVE to attack PLUS a 9/8 and a 2/1 or something like a 6/6, 4/3 and a 2/1 anyway. And the other problem is you've taken a hit or two by then, so even if you drop nefarian on turn 7 (if you're lucky enough to have gone first), he'll correctly go face, drop another minion, and you'll probably have 10-15 health left and STILL have totally lost control of the board.

    I mean, I guess I've answered my own question. The best-case scenario (aside from assuming he has mysterious challenger on turn 6) is still pretty much unwinnable in this matchup. There's edge cases that might make it survivable (like lucking into owl+sludge belcher to delay your doom or equality+consecrate.)

    edit: my dragon paly actually runs 2 zombie chows in addition to minibots, musters, and 1 knife juggler. I feel like without them it'd be even more hopeless.

    MadPen on
    3DS: 4098-4243-6127
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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited September 2015
    I've never seen streakiness in this game or any other like I've experienced this season

    constantly losing 5+ games in a row and sometimes winning that many too but ultimately not going fucking anywhere rank-wise. for over a week! last season made me think I was legend-capable and this has made it clear that my upper limit is actually around rank 2, unless I can get something like last season where I find a deck that's great against everything that's popular. just super hard to do that when the meta isn't crystal clear.

    edit - fallen back 8 stars in 10 games today, for example, after climbing around that quickly the other day. either everything works or nothing works.

    Variable on
    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
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    DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    Variable wrote: »
    I've never seen streakiness in this game or any other like I've experienced this season

    constantly losing 5+ games in a row and sometimes winning that many too but ultimately not going fucking anywhere rank-wise. for over a week! last season made me think I was legend-capable and this has made it clear that my upper limit is actually around rank 2, unless I can get something like last season where I find a deck that's great against everything that's popular. just super hard to do that when the meta isn't crystal clear.

    edit - fallen back 8 stars in 10 games today, for example, after climbing around that quickly the other day. either everything works or nothing works.

    Dude I hear you. I started today at Rank 7, four stars. Win a game, 5 stars.

    Lose and win and lose and win and LOSE LOSE LOSE all the way down to Rank 8, two or three stars.

    Then winwinwinwin and I'm Rank 6 with one star?

    Hm...

    And sometimes it's not even "I played poorly", it comes down to matchup a lot of the time. Like, okay I'm playing Aggro Secrets Pally, cool. Start having issues, switch to Druid, my old faithful. Start having issues vs Secret Pallies. Switch to Mech Mage since it's a hard counter. Thrash a few Secret Pallies and then NOTHING BUT PRIESTS. Mech Mage can't do ANYTHING vs Priest, it's like their worst matchup.

    Dibby on
    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
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    MadPenMadPen San DiegoRegistered User regular
    Dibby wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    I've never seen streakiness in this game or any other like I've experienced this season

    constantly losing 5+ games in a row and sometimes winning that many too but ultimately not going fucking anywhere rank-wise. for over a week! last season made me think I was legend-capable and this has made it clear that my upper limit is actually around rank 2, unless I can get something like last season where I find a deck that's great against everything that's popular. just super hard to do that when the meta isn't crystal clear.

    edit - fallen back 8 stars in 10 games today, for example, after climbing around that quickly the other day. either everything works or nothing works.

    Dude I hear you. I started today at Rank 7, four stars. Win a game, 5 stars.

    Lose and win and lose and win and LOSE LOSE LOSE all the way down to Rank 8, two or three stars.

    Then winwinwinwin and I'm Rank 6 with one star?

    Hm...

    And sometimes it's not even "I played poorly", it comes down to matchup a lot of the time. Like, okay I'm playing Aggro Secrets Pally, cool. Start having issues, switch to Druid, my old faithful. Start having issues vs Secret Pallies. Switch to Mech Mage since it's a hard counter. Thrash a few Secret Pallies and then NOTHING BUT PRIESTS. Mech Mage can't do ANYTHING vs Priest, it's like their worst matchup.

    I've been running into this a lot lately myself. A good way to stop it is to play Patron or some flavor of oil rogue. At the end of a match, ask yourself "is there any way I/my opponent could have won this?" If you can honestly say "No" after playing one of those decks, you're way smarter than me. Although I often suspect the answer is no :)

    3DS: 4098-4243-6127
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    MightyMighty Omeganaut '15 '16 '17 NebraskaRegistered User regular
    God damn, why does every TGT legend i find have to be such ass.

    First it's two acidmaws, and now it's stupid skeleton knight.

    I'd like one playable one, please.

    /salt

    Twitch: twitch.tv\dreadmighty
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    Marty81Marty81 Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    Dibby wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    I've never seen streakiness in this game or any other like I've experienced this season

    constantly losing 5+ games in a row and sometimes winning that many too but ultimately not going fucking anywhere rank-wise. for over a week! last season made me think I was legend-capable and this has made it clear that my upper limit is actually around rank 2, unless I can get something like last season where I find a deck that's great against everything that's popular. just super hard to do that when the meta isn't crystal clear.

    edit - fallen back 8 stars in 10 games today, for example, after climbing around that quickly the other day. either everything works or nothing works.

    Dude I hear you. I started today at Rank 7, four stars. Win a game, 5 stars.

    Lose and win and lose and win and LOSE LOSE LOSE all the way down to Rank 8, two or three stars.

    Then winwinwinwin and I'm Rank 6 with one star?

    Hm...

    And sometimes it's not even "I played poorly", it comes down to matchup a lot of the time. Like, okay I'm playing Aggro Secrets Pally, cool. Start having issues, switch to Druid, my old faithful. Start having issues vs Secret Pallies. Switch to Mech Mage since it's a hard counter. Thrash a few Secret Pallies and then NOTHING BUT PRIESTS. Mech Mage can't do ANYTHING vs Priest, it's like their worst matchup.

    I kind of feel like the meta is too rock-paper-scissors-y right now to allow for much in the way of win streaks. That actually doesn't make sense. It just makes the game less fun to play.

    Marty81 on
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    SensationalSensational Registered User regular
    This was so sexy:
    65H6hZv.jpg

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    The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    I used my unleash, quickshot and leftover eaglehorn to take a paladin to 4 health while I had loch'n'load up. I had the justicar'd hunter power (I'm experimenting with midrangey and control hunter builds). My hand is ram wrangler, two powershots and a steamweedle sniper. He concedes.

    I honestly wonder if he thought Justicar made the hunter power do 4 (I didn't actually get to use it that game because it became a race), or if he just assumed I had an extra bit of damage in hand.

    9uiytxaqj2j0.jpg
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    YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    Well, its gotten better with TGT, but maybe lower-middle of the pack. I think its currently in a better spot than rogue, but maybe thats not saying much?

    Rogue isn't even bad atm, it just didn't get any new toys so no one is interested in playing it. It still destroys Paladin, which has managed to finally surpass Hunter as the most played ladder deck.

    Yilias on
    Steam - BNet: Yilias #1224 - Riot: Yilias #moc
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    MadPenMadPen San DiegoRegistered User regular
    6 1-mana cards in my deck. 5 games in a row without a single one in my opening hand, despite aggressively mulliganing for them. Y'know, if I'm gonna be out of cards by turn 7, I could at least have a card to play on turn 1. Is that so fucking much to ask?

    3DS: 4098-4243-6127
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    The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    Just killed a patron warrior at 8 health on turn 9 with King Krush.

    That feeling is exactly why I haven't dusted him.

    9uiytxaqj2j0.jpg
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    KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    Feeling inspired by Trump's win over Firebat yesterday

    out-tempoing tempo mages with druid is such a delicious feeling

    I winstreaked from 10 down to 5 today. One of my highights:

    mKe2BNF.png

    KetBra on
    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
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    MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    All that Control Warrior luck I was having the other day seemed to run out. Went from mid 7 to bottom 8. Ugh....

    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
    Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
    Steam ID
    Twitch Page
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    DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    CPfSKD7WcAA221z.png:large

    R A N K 5 C H E S T B O Y Z

    I did it! After much struggle, I finally hit my goal of Rank 5 this month. I'm so goddamn glad that's done, I can stop stressing and just play now.

    I went through... many, many decks on my way up there. Aggro Secrets Pally did most of the legwork, and when I was struggling with that I'd rock my old faithful Midrange Druid. Also tooled around with Mech Mage and Handlock a bit here and there. Eventually, hit Rank 7 and just kept on with Midrange Druid since it's so extremely consistent. My final gatekeeper match was vs a Mech Warrior. It was incredibly harrowing. He knocked me down to 3 health with an Arcanite Reaper in hand. I healed back up to 8 with an Ancient of Lore. Knocked me down to 3 again, healed back up to 8 with my 2nd Lore. Eventually I was at about 5 health or so and dropped a clutch Cenarius to stop any incoming aggression, which lead to my inevitable win. I actually ran into quite a few Mech Warriors on my way up, I guess it's getting popular or something? Some streamer streaming it? I dunno.

    Edit: Aha, found it. It was on Hearthpwn: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/335042-s18-2-legend-mech-warrior It's actually really good I think, give it a swing if you liked Face Warrior, it plays pretty similarly.

    Dibby on
    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    the number of groms i have gotten from unstable portal over its lifespan is truly absurd

    liEt3nH.png
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    chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    Yilias wrote: »
    Well, its gotten better with TGT, but maybe lower-middle of the pack. I think its currently in a better spot than rogue, but maybe thats not saying much?

    Rogue isn't even bad atm, it just didn't get any new toys so no one is interested in playing it. It still destroys Paladin, which has managed to finally surpass Hunter as the most played ladder deck.

    I could just be ignorant of the options, but I thought that rogue has only one viable option in Oil rogue. Is that not the case? If so, I don't think thats a good place for a class to be in. Though, I'm terrible at rogue, so I certainly may be wrong about this.

    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
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    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    Is there anything other than oil rogue that's viable?

    Current meta, I mean.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
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    WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    I am not sure if a lot of matchups are 100-0 (well I guess 90-10 or 80-20) or games are just very unforgiving of mistakes or missteps. It is why I have moved away from dragon priest as I was just getting too frustrated spending so many games missing a dragon and staring at unactivatable wyrmrests and other pieces losing in what are allegedly great matchups. Really I am still torn as to what the actual problem is but something doesn't seem right. Maybe it is simply I can't find a deck I really enjoy playing so it is the incessant switching that is ruining the fun, or the irritation of being unable to do so many things I would like to in client (stat tracking, replays, etc).

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    YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    Yilias wrote: »
    Well, its gotten better with TGT, but maybe lower-middle of the pack. I think its currently in a better spot than rogue, but maybe thats not saying much?

    Rogue isn't even bad atm, it just didn't get any new toys so no one is interested in playing it. It still destroys Paladin, which has managed to finally surpass Hunter as the most played ladder deck.

    I could just be ignorant of the options, but I thought that rogue has only one viable option in Oil rogue. Is that not the case? If so, I don't think thats a good place for a class to be in. Though, I'm terrible at rogue, so I certainly may be wrong about this.

    Why do you think only having one competitive deck makes a class bad? Every Paladin deck atm is built around Mysterious Challenger and 95% of Druid decks are Force+Roar.

    Steam - BNet: Yilias #1224 - Riot: Yilias #moc
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    lwt1973lwt1973 King of Thieves SyndicationRegistered User regular
    3clipse wrote: »
    overload sucks as a mechanic

    Amen.

    You can do some good catch-up moves as Shaman, only to be unable to keep up again the next turn because you're deprived of x mana from overload.

    Like what was the point of me doing that catch-up turn?

    It's like gambling with Overload. You roll the dice and get a good minion/spell/whatever but next turn if they counter it you are wasting a complete turn usually.

    "He's sulking in his tent like Achilles! It's the Iliad?...from Homer?! READ A BOOK!!" -Handy
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    chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    Yilias wrote: »
    Yilias wrote: »
    Well, its gotten better with TGT, but maybe lower-middle of the pack. I think its currently in a better spot than rogue, but maybe thats not saying much?

    Rogue isn't even bad atm, it just didn't get any new toys so no one is interested in playing it. It still destroys Paladin, which has managed to finally surpass Hunter as the most played ladder deck.

    I could just be ignorant of the options, but I thought that rogue has only one viable option in Oil rogue. Is that not the case? If so, I don't think thats a good place for a class to be in. Though, I'm terrible at rogue, so I certainly may be wrong about this.

    Why do you think only having one competitive deck makes a class bad? Every Paladin deck atm is built around Mysterious Challenger and 95% of Druid decks are Force+Roar.

    Well "bad" might not be a good descriptor, but I think its not good for classes to only have one viable build. So, whether equating bad with not good is right way to say it. I'd say that "one trick pony" classes are not a good state for the game to be in. Certainly you may disagree. I'd argue that classes such as warrior (patron vs. control), lock (aggro, demon, hand), hunter (face, midrange) are in a better spot than classes like rogue (oil), paladin (MC), shaman (totem).

    Sure, the current best paladin deck is much better on the ladder than the best shaman deck, but I meant my comment to be about the class, and not the relative power of the decks themselves.

    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
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    MuffinatronMuffinatron Registered User regular
    Well, that felt pretty awesome.

    My internet disconnected for some reason, but I managed to get it to re-connect and I'd only missed turn 2. Ideally that would've been a tap to let me get a bigger Twilight Drake out but hey.

    Despite that disadvantage, I managed to beat my Paladin opponent. Two Molten Giants with Taunt were too much for him after I'd already drawn out his consecrates and equalities.

    PSN: Holy-Promethium
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    Marty81Marty81 Registered User regular
    I am not sure if a lot of matchups are 100-0 (well I guess 90-10 or 80-20) or games are just very unforgiving of mistakes or missteps. It is why I have moved away from dragon priest as I was just getting too frustrated spending so many games missing a dragon and staring at unactivatable wyrmrests and other pieces losing in what are allegedly great matchups. Really I am still torn as to what the actual problem is but something doesn't seem right. Maybe it is simply I can't find a deck I really enjoy playing so it is the incessant switching that is ruining the fun, or the irritation of being unable to do so many things I would like to in client (stat tracking, replays, etc).

    It's interesting to hear that bc I've never played dragon priest (don't have the cards), but my experience in playing against it is it always seems to be able to drop an activated wyrmrest on 2 and twilight guardian on 4, which is absurdly powerful. It always seems like they have the activators they need when they drop things, but what I don't see is how often they don't have them and have to sit on an unactivated card in hand.

    I'm not a big fan of Blizzard's design of making cards like these that are more "situationally useful" (the situation in this case being having a dragon in hand) because it makes the game even more draw dependent, and it comes down entirely to your own luck (nothing to do with your opponent's deck or the board state) as to whether your cards will be way better than they should be or way worse than they should be for their mana cost. If you draw well you're going to do REALLY well at setting up your early game and if you draw poorly you're just going to get run over. The variance in outcomes just seems too high. Like previously against aggro, before tgt, maybe you would have had a 40-60% chance to win as determined by your first 6 cards, but now you have a 15% chance or an 85% chance to win as determined by your first 6 cards.

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    WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    Marty81 wrote: »
    I am not sure if a lot of matchups are 100-0 (well I guess 90-10 or 80-20) or games are just very unforgiving of mistakes or missteps. It is why I have moved away from dragon priest as I was just getting too frustrated spending so many games missing a dragon and staring at unactivatable wyrmrests and other pieces losing in what are allegedly great matchups. Really I am still torn as to what the actual problem is but something doesn't seem right. Maybe it is simply I can't find a deck I really enjoy playing so it is the incessant switching that is ruining the fun, or the irritation of being unable to do so many things I would like to in client (stat tracking, replays, etc).

    It's interesting to hear that bc I've never played dragon priest (don't have the cards), but my experience in playing against it is it always seems to be able to drop an activated wyrmrest on 2 and twilight guardian on 4, which is absurdly powerful. It always seems like they have the activators they need when they drop things, but what I don't see is how often they don't have them and have to sit on an unactivated card in hand.

    I'm not a big fan of Blizzard's design of making cards like these that are more "situationally useful" (the situation in this case being having a dragon in hand) because it makes the game even more draw dependent, and it comes down entirely to your own luck (nothing to do with your opponent's deck or the board state) as to whether your cards will be way better than they should be or way worse than they should be for their mana cost. If you draw well you're going to do REALLY well at setting up your early game and if you draw poorly you're just going to get run over. The variance in outcomes just seems too high. Like previously against aggro, before tgt, maybe you would have had a 40-60% chance to win as determined by your first 6 cards, but now you have a 15% chance or an 85% chance to win as determined by your first 6 cards.

    To be fair, the situation I described is anecdotal and statistically unlikely. Personally it is just infuriating to hit 10 games consecutively along those lines.

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