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A Thread About [Black Lives Matter]

1234568

Posts

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    I can see how it happened. Dog whistling happened because on a national level, the obvious racist language wasn't cutting it. 40 or so years later, you've got niche networks who are targeting the part of the population that is digging the racism, and they start shifting their language back since their audience is eating it up.

  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    I dont want to get into a whole thing with you about what does and doesn't constitute malice, but that is where this is going. Suffice to say that short sightedness, incompetence and ignorance may be destructive but it isn't malicious.

    ...we're going here again.

    Look, if you want to be ignorant of what's going on around various phrases and such, that's your choice. But when it gets pointed out to you that "hey, that phrase actually has a lot of assumptions and baggage built in that you need to consider", it's not being done for shits and giggles. You cannot separate All Lives Matter from the fact that it has been used as an attempt to dismiss the arguments and criticism of BLM.

    Right, but you can't carry that meaning across to any specific individual that says that. On it's face, it's a pretty harmless statement.

    This is in context of the Hulk Hogan tweet.

    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
    Julius
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Mortious wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    I dont want to get into a whole thing with you about what does and doesn't constitute malice, but that is where this is going. Suffice to say that short sightedness, incompetence and ignorance may be destructive but it isn't malicious.

    ...we're going here again.

    Look, if you want to be ignorant of what's going on around various phrases and such, that's your choice. But when it gets pointed out to you that "hey, that phrase actually has a lot of assumptions and baggage built in that you need to consider", it's not being done for shits and giggles. You cannot separate All Lives Matter from the fact that it has been used as an attempt to dismiss the arguments and criticism of BLM.

    Right, but you can't carry that meaning across to any specific individual that says that. On it's face, it's a pretty harmless statement.

    This is in context of the Hulk Hogan tweet.

    Sure you can. Frankly, you'd be an ignorant silly not to. You are acting like Hulk Hogan just randomly thought this up 2 days ago rather then said slogan having been used as a propaganda tool for as long as BLM has been around (ie - like a year now or something)

    The context of the tweet is that he's not making a spontaneous statement, he's repeating an existing meme. And you are trying to ignore that.

  • Mr KhanMr Khan Not Everyone WAHHHRegistered User regular
    Especially after he just went on a racist rant. The two together crush any deniability about the man's views, if there was any.

    shrykeMegaMek
  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    Hogan was also responding to a BLM advocate who was harassed by several people and called Racist for his responses clarifying why it's problematic

    King Riptor on
    I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    I dont want to get into a whole thing with you about what does and doesn't constitute malice, but that is where this is going. Suffice to say that short sightedness, incompetence and ignorance may be destructive but it isn't malicious.

    ...we're going here again.

    Look, if you want to be ignorant of what's going on around various phrases and such, that's your choice. But when it gets pointed out to you that "hey, that phrase actually has a lot of assumptions and baggage built in that you need to consider", it's not being done for shits and giggles. You cannot separate All Lives Matter from the fact that it has been used as an attempt to dismiss the arguments and criticism of BLM.

    Right, but you can't carry that meaning across to any specific individual that says that. On it's face, it's a pretty harmless statement.

    This is in context of the Hulk Hogan tweet.

    Sure you can. Frankly, you'd be an ignorant silly not to. You are acting like Hulk Hogan just randomly thought this up 2 days ago rather then said slogan having been used as a propaganda tool for as long as BLM has been around (ie - like a year now or something)

    The context of the tweet is that he's not making a spontaneous statement, he's repeating an existing meme. And you are trying to ignore that.

    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm well aware of the context surrounding these things.

    But someone saying ALM doesn't mean they're a racist trying to delegitimize the BLM movement.

    I feel like you're assuming other people have the same level of these slogans and their meaning which they probably don't have. Like I said, on it's face ALM is a harmless statement, and if someone uses it, you'll need more context before just writing them off.

    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
    Apothe0sisKanaJulius
  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited September 2015
    edit: weird double post

    Mortious on
    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    Mortious wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    I dont want to get into a whole thing with you about what does and doesn't constitute malice, but that is where this is going. Suffice to say that short sightedness, incompetence and ignorance may be destructive but it isn't malicious.

    ...we're going here again.

    Look, if you want to be ignorant of what's going on around various phrases and such, that's your choice. But when it gets pointed out to you that "hey, that phrase actually has a lot of assumptions and baggage built in that you need to consider", it's not being done for shits and giggles. You cannot separate All Lives Matter from the fact that it has been used as an attempt to dismiss the arguments and criticism of BLM.

    Right, but you can't carry that meaning across to any specific individual that says that. On it's face, it's a pretty harmless statement.

    This is in context of the Hulk Hogan tweet.

    Sure you can. Frankly, you'd be an ignorant silly not to. You are acting like Hulk Hogan just randomly thought this up 2 days ago rather then said slogan having been used as a propaganda tool for as long as BLM has been around (ie - like a year now or something)

    The context of the tweet is that he's not making a spontaneous statement, he's repeating an existing meme. And you are trying to ignore that.

    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm well aware of the context surrounding these things.

    But someone saying ALM doesn't mean they're a racist trying to delegitimize the BLM movement.

    I feel like you're assuming other people have the same level of these slogans and their meaning which they probably don't have. Like I said, on it's face ALM is a harmless statement, and if someone uses it, you'll need more context before just writing them off.

    The chance that they aren't when posting on twitter like this is statistically insignificant.

    You are arguing a bunch of pointless gooseshit here. With context, there's no question what he means. On it's own there's only the tinniest most insignificant possibility he doesn't know what he means. You are arguing the equivalent of "Well, maybe all air molecules in the area randomly were all moving in the same direction due to thermal energy, It's technically possible." when the truth is it's just windy. And there's seems little point in this silly bit of persnickety nitpicking.

    shryke on
  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    I dont want to get into a whole thing with you about what does and doesn't constitute malice, but that is where this is going. Suffice to say that short sightedness, incompetence and ignorance may be destructive but it isn't malicious.

    ...we're going here again.

    Look, if you want to be ignorant of what's going on around various phrases and such, that's your choice. But when it gets pointed out to you that "hey, that phrase actually has a lot of assumptions and baggage built in that you need to consider", it's not being done for shits and giggles. You cannot separate All Lives Matter from the fact that it has been used as an attempt to dismiss the arguments and criticism of BLM.

    Right, but you can't carry that meaning across to any specific individual that says that. On it's face, it's a pretty harmless statement.

    This is in context of the Hulk Hogan tweet.

    Sure you can. Frankly, you'd be an ignorant silly not to. You are acting like Hulk Hogan just randomly thought this up 2 days ago rather then said slogan having been used as a propaganda tool for as long as BLM has been around (ie - like a year now or something)

    The context of the tweet is that he's not making a spontaneous statement, he's repeating an existing meme. And you are trying to ignore that.

    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm well aware of the context surrounding these things.

    But someone saying ALM doesn't mean they're a racist trying to delegitimize the BLM movement.

    I feel like you're assuming other people have the same level of these slogans and their meaning which they probably don't have. Like I said, on it's face ALM is a harmless statement, and if someone uses it, you'll need more context before just writing them off.

    The chance that they aren't when posting on twitter like this is statistically insignificant.

    You are arguing a bunch of pointless gooseshit here. With context, there's no question what he means. On it's own there's only the tinniest most insignificant possibility he doesn't know what he means. You are arguing the equivalent of "Well, maybe all air molecules in the area randomly were all moving in the same direction due to thermal energy, It's technically possible." when the truth is it's just windy. And there's seems little point in this silly bit of persnickety nitpicking.

    Does twitter quiz you on these things before you're allowed to tweet or something?

    And none of what you said address my point, other than with HH at least there is more context (whatever that is, there's only that one tweet in this thread)

    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    "All lives matter" is, at the very least, being hilariously ignorant over the point of BLM.

    I've yet to see it not being something much worse.

    Edith UpwardszagdrobSurfpossum
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    Mortious wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    I dont want to get into a whole thing with you about what does and doesn't constitute malice, but that is where this is going. Suffice to say that short sightedness, incompetence and ignorance may be destructive but it isn't malicious.

    ...we're going here again.

    Look, if you want to be ignorant of what's going on around various phrases and such, that's your choice. But when it gets pointed out to you that "hey, that phrase actually has a lot of assumptions and baggage built in that you need to consider", it's not being done for shits and giggles. You cannot separate All Lives Matter from the fact that it has been used as an attempt to dismiss the arguments and criticism of BLM.

    Right, but you can't carry that meaning across to any specific individual that says that. On it's face, it's a pretty harmless statement.

    This is in context of the Hulk Hogan tweet.

    Sure you can. Frankly, you'd be an ignorant silly not to. You are acting like Hulk Hogan just randomly thought this up 2 days ago rather then said slogan having been used as a propaganda tool for as long as BLM has been around (ie - like a year now or something)

    The context of the tweet is that he's not making a spontaneous statement, he's repeating an existing meme. And you are trying to ignore that.

    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm well aware of the context surrounding these things.

    But someone saying ALM doesn't mean they're a racist trying to delegitimize the BLM movement.

    I feel like you're assuming other people have the same level of these slogans and their meaning which they probably don't have. Like I said, on it's face ALM is a harmless statement, and if someone uses it, you'll need more context before just writing them off.

    The chance that they aren't when posting on twitter like this is statistically insignificant.

    You are arguing a bunch of pointless gooseshit here. With context, there's no question what he means. On it's own there's only the tinniest most insignificant possibility he doesn't know what he means. You are arguing the equivalent of "Well, maybe all air molecules in the area randomly were all moving in the same direction due to thermal energy, It's technically possible." when the truth is it's just windy. And there's seems little point in this silly bit of persnickety nitpicking.

    Does twitter quiz you on these things before you're allowed to tweet or something?

    And none of what you said address my point, other than with HH at least there is more context (whatever that is, there's only that one tweet in this thread)

    We did address your point. Which also addresses both your points in this post.

    "All Lives Matter" is not a random statement. It's not a random series of words jammed together. It's not a spontaneous utterance.

    It's a specific phrase in reaction to a specific movement and used for the purpose of trying to fight back against that movement. And it's a meme from a specific right-wing reactionary culture.

    Every one of your comments on this is an attempt to divorce the phrase entirely from it's context.

    shryke on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    So I'm at the Michigan Union playing board games and some old white dude turns on Fox News behind me. Second hand Fox News is awful. Anyway, they have Mark fucking Fuhrman on to talk about BLM. I know Fox is Fox, but holy shit guys. Blew a slam dunk conviction by being a racist tool so let's have him talk about racism.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • MuddypawsMuddypaws Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    "All lives matter" is the "What about the menz??" of dog-whistle racism. It fills the same linguistic niche as 'thug' and ' inner city' and supports the status quo which is basically Black Lives Matter Less.

    BLML is much less catchy as a rallying cry.

    Muddypaws on
    TL DREdith Upwardszagdrobqwer12PLA
  • Void SlayerVoid Slayer Very Suspicious Registered User regular
    I guess they could have gone with #BrutalPoliceMurdersOfMinorities?

    White lives mattering is the default assumption. Of course that white guy beat up by the cops matters.

    Black lives matter is saying, "Hey that black guy getting murdered is not okay. No really it isn't!" When the default for a lot of people is 'well he must have been doing something wrong, he must deserve it.'

    That is why ALM is missing the point about what is being emphasized with the movement. Police brutality focused on minorities.

    He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    I dont want to get into a whole thing with you about what does and doesn't constitute malice, but that is where this is going. Suffice to say that short sightedness, incompetence and ignorance may be destructive but it isn't malicious.

    ...we're going here again.

    Look, if you want to be ignorant of what's going on around various phrases and such, that's your choice. But when it gets pointed out to you that "hey, that phrase actually has a lot of assumptions and baggage built in that you need to consider", it's not being done for shits and giggles. You cannot separate All Lives Matter from the fact that it has been used as an attempt to dismiss the arguments and criticism of BLM.

    Right, but you can't carry that meaning across to any specific individual that says that. On it's face, it's a pretty harmless statement.

    This is in context of the Hulk Hogan tweet.

    Sure you can. Frankly, you'd be an ignorant silly not to. You are acting like Hulk Hogan just randomly thought this up 2 days ago rather then said slogan having been used as a propaganda tool for as long as BLM has been around (ie - like a year now or something)

    The context of the tweet is that he's not making a spontaneous statement, he's repeating an existing meme. And you are trying to ignore that.

    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm well aware of the context surrounding these things.

    But someone saying ALM doesn't mean they're a racist trying to delegitimize the BLM movement.

    I feel like you're assuming other people have the same level of these slogans and their meaning which they probably don't have. Like I said, on it's face ALM is a harmless statement, and if someone uses it, you'll need more context before just writing them off.

    The chance that they aren't when posting on twitter like this is statistically insignificant.

    You are arguing a bunch of pointless gooseshit here. With context, there's no question what he means. On it's own there's only the tinniest most insignificant possibility he doesn't know what he means. You are arguing the equivalent of "Well, maybe all air molecules in the area randomly were all moving in the same direction due to thermal energy, It's technically possible." when the truth is it's just windy. And there's seems little point in this silly bit of persnickety nitpicking.

    Does twitter quiz you on these things before you're allowed to tweet or something?

    And none of what you said address my point, other than with HH at least there is more context (whatever that is, there's only that one tweet in this thread)

    We did address your point. Which also addresses both your points in this post.

    "All Lives Matter" is not a random statement. It's not a random series of words jammed together. It's not a spontaneous utterance.

    It's a specific phrase in reaction to a specific movement and used for the purpose of trying to fight back against that movement. And it's a meme from a specific right-wing reactionary culture.

    Every one of your comments on this is an attempt to divorce the phrase entirely from it's context.

    Again, that's not my point.

    The context was the HH tweet, that it by itself does not constitute a racist belief, or a malicious intent. It's misguided, but you need to be aware of the context surrounding it to see why it is so.

    Because on its face it's a decent sentiment.

    And the context around the whole BLM/ALM thing doesn't have the cultural exposure where you can make a judgement based on someone solely based on them saying that statement.

    Even if they do so on twitter.

    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited September 2015
    "All Lives Matter" is, in itself, a fine sentiment.

    But imagine if someone says "fight breast cancer!" and you respond with "how about we fight all disease?"

    Or someone says "support our troops!" and you answer "how about we support all occupations?"

    Nobody would ever respond like that, though. Because it is a stupid dickhole nonsequitor.

    And yet for some reason, that is deemed a suitable response to BLM.

    Wow, I wonder what that reason is. It is a mystery.

    ElJeffe on
    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Mortious wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    I dont want to get into a whole thing with you about what does and doesn't constitute malice, but that is where this is going. Suffice to say that short sightedness, incompetence and ignorance may be destructive but it isn't malicious.

    ...we're going here again.

    Look, if you want to be ignorant of what's going on around various phrases and such, that's your choice. But when it gets pointed out to you that "hey, that phrase actually has a lot of assumptions and baggage built in that you need to consider", it's not being done for shits and giggles. You cannot separate All Lives Matter from the fact that it has been used as an attempt to dismiss the arguments and criticism of BLM.

    Right, but you can't carry that meaning across to any specific individual that says that. On it's face, it's a pretty harmless statement.

    This is in context of the Hulk Hogan tweet.

    Sure you can. Frankly, you'd be an ignorant silly not to. You are acting like Hulk Hogan just randomly thought this up 2 days ago rather then said slogan having been used as a propaganda tool for as long as BLM has been around (ie - like a year now or something)

    The context of the tweet is that he's not making a spontaneous statement, he's repeating an existing meme. And you are trying to ignore that.

    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm well aware of the context surrounding these things.

    But someone saying ALM doesn't mean they're a racist trying to delegitimize the BLM movement.

    I feel like you're assuming other people have the same level of these slogans and their meaning which they probably don't have. Like I said, on it's face ALM is a harmless statement, and if someone uses it, you'll need more context before just writing them off.

    The chance that they aren't when posting on twitter like this is statistically insignificant.

    You are arguing a bunch of pointless gooseshit here. With context, there's no question what he means. On it's own there's only the tinniest most insignificant possibility he doesn't know what he means. You are arguing the equivalent of "Well, maybe all air molecules in the area randomly were all moving in the same direction due to thermal energy, It's technically possible." when the truth is it's just windy. And there's seems little point in this silly bit of persnickety nitpicking.

    Does twitter quiz you on these things before you're allowed to tweet or something?

    And none of what you said address my point, other than with HH at least there is more context (whatever that is, there's only that one tweet in this thread)

    We did address your point. Which also addresses both your points in this post.

    "All Lives Matter" is not a random statement. It's not a random series of words jammed together. It's not a spontaneous utterance.

    It's a specific phrase in reaction to a specific movement and used for the purpose of trying to fight back against that movement. And it's a meme from a specific right-wing reactionary culture.

    Every one of your comments on this is an attempt to divorce the phrase entirely from it's context.

    Again, that's not my point.

    The context was the HH tweet, that it by itself does not constitute a racist belief, or a malicious intent. It's misguided, but you need to be aware of the context surrounding it to see why it is so.

    Because on its face it's a decent sentiment.

    And the context around the whole BLM/ALM thing doesn't have the cultural exposure where you can make a judgement based on someone solely based on them saying that statement.

    Even if they do so on twitter.

    Yes it does for exactly the reasons I've now repeated several times. And ElJeffe has now repeated too.

    Your argument here only works if you just suffered a severe brain injury and have lost all memory before that tweet and twote.

  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    It's a simpler representation of a fundamental value: equality, and people like simple things. Cure all disease and support all troops are not as platitudinal. It sounds nicer and truthier so your first instinct is to go with it.

    This is what you get when you worship Occam's Razor

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    Shadowhope
  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    "All Lives Matter" is, in itself, a fine sentiment.

    But imagine if someone says "fight breast cancer!" and you respond with "how about we fight all disease?"

    Or someone says "support our troops!" and you answer "how about we support all occupations?"

    Nobody would ever respond like that, though. Because it is a stupid dickhole nonsequitor.

    And yet for some reason, that is deemed a suitable response to BLM.

    Wow, I wonder what that reason is. It is a mystery.

    Right, and I never said otherwise.

    But if you see some random person tweet that, do you assume that they're being malicious/racist, or just uninformed/naive?

    Outside of any other information, I usually assume the latter.

    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
    Apothe0sisShadowhopeAgahnim
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Mortious wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    "All Lives Matter" is, in itself, a fine sentiment.

    But imagine if someone says "fight breast cancer!" and you respond with "how about we fight all disease?"

    Or someone says "support our troops!" and you answer "how about we support all occupations?"

    Nobody would ever respond like that, though. Because it is a stupid dickhole nonsequitor.

    And yet for some reason, that is deemed a suitable response to BLM.

    Wow, I wonder what that reason is. It is a mystery.

    Right, and I never said otherwise.

    But if you see some random person tweet that, do you assume that they're being malicious/racist, or just uninformed/naive?

    Outside of any other information, I usually assume the latter.

    Actually, breast cancer is a huge argument against 'letting people decide how to run their movements because the people experiencing it know best'

    Almost all doctors are in agreement that more money is needed for the less glamorous cancers, and that breast cancer should now take a back seat, but its impossible to stop people giving money to breast cancer rather than other cancers since if has become its own 'thing'.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
    Apothe0sisIncenjucarLoisLaneJuliusDisruptedCapitalistElvenshaeCaptain Marcus
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Mortious wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    "All Lives Matter" is, in itself, a fine sentiment.

    But imagine if someone says "fight breast cancer!" and you respond with "how about we fight all disease?"

    Or someone says "support our troops!" and you answer "how about we support all occupations?"

    Nobody would ever respond like that, though. Because it is a stupid dickhole nonsequitor.

    And yet for some reason, that is deemed a suitable response to BLM.

    Wow, I wonder what that reason is. It is a mystery.

    Right, and I never said otherwise.

    But if you see some random person tweet that, do you assume that they're being malicious/racist, or just uninformed/naive?

    Outside of any other information, I usually assume the latter.

    In the context of understanding that #AllLivesMatter is a reactionary message to #BlackLivesMatter, I think it's reasonable to assume negative intent.


    Again - and this has been touched on a few times already - it's important not to get hung-up on whether or not someone propagating a negative message is really a racist or really malicious.

    With Love and Courage
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Mortious wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    "All Lives Matter" is, in itself, a fine sentiment.

    But imagine if someone says "fight breast cancer!" and you respond with "how about we fight all disease?"

    Or someone says "support our troops!" and you answer "how about we support all occupations?"

    Nobody would ever respond like that, though. Because it is a stupid dickhole nonsequitor.

    And yet for some reason, that is deemed a suitable response to BLM.

    Wow, I wonder what that reason is. It is a mystery.

    Right, and I never said otherwise.

    But if you see some random person tweet that, do you assume that they're being malicious/racist, or just uninformed/naive?

    Outside of any other information, I usually assume the latter.

    I assume they are just repeating the meme, which is explicitly an anti-BLM meme. Cause that "All Lives Matter" shit didn't come from nowhere.

  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    I guess the question is... We're people saying #alllivesmatter before BLM? No? Then it's pretty safe to assume the intent when people say that is a dissmisive or worse response to BLM.

    No I don't.
  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    The Ender wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    "All Lives Matter" is, in itself, a fine sentiment.

    But imagine if someone says "fight breast cancer!" and you respond with "how about we fight all disease?"

    Or someone says "support our troops!" and you answer "how about we support all occupations?"

    Nobody would ever respond like that, though. Because it is a stupid dickhole nonsequitor.

    And yet for some reason, that is deemed a suitable response to BLM.

    Wow, I wonder what that reason is. It is a mystery.

    Right, and I never said otherwise.

    But if you see some random person tweet that, do you assume that they're being malicious/racist, or just uninformed/naive?

    Outside of any other information, I usually assume the latter.

    In the context of understanding that #AllLivesMatter is a reactionary message to #BlackLivesMatter, I think it's reasonable to assume negative intent.


    Again - and this has been touched on a few times already - it's important not to get hung-up on whether or not someone propagating a negative message is really a racist or really malicious.

    I think this is exactly the important thing when it comes to dealing with those who are not buying in.

    How you deal with a bona fide racist is a very different thing to the insufficiently reflective.

    Treating the latter as the same as the former is going to lead to the very things that the unequivocal supporters of BLM within the thread state they wish to avoid.

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  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    I guess the question is... We're people saying #alllivesmatter before BLM? No? Then it's pretty safe to assume the intent when people say that is a dissmisive or worse response to BLM.

    The intent of the message is, but I don't think it's fair to say that of the some of the people who spread that message.

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  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    "All Lives Matter" is, in itself, a fine sentiment.

    But imagine if someone says "fight breast cancer!" and you respond with "how about we fight all disease?"

    Or someone says "support our troops!" and you answer "how about we support all occupations?"

    Nobody would ever respond like that, though. Because it is a stupid dickhole nonsequitor.

    And yet for some reason, that is deemed a suitable response to BLM.

    Wow, I wonder what that reason is. It is a mystery.

    Right, and I never said otherwise.

    But if you see some random person tweet that, do you assume that they're being malicious/racist, or just uninformed/naive?

    Outside of any other information, I usually assume the latter.

    Actually, breast cancer is a huge argument against 'letting people decide how to run their movements because the people experiencing it know best'

    Almost all doctors are in agreement that more money is needed for the less glamorous cancers, and that breast cancer should now take a back seat, but its impossible to stop people giving money to breast cancer rather than other cancers since if has become its own 'thing'.

    What? You came away from that conversation with a weird misunderstanding of what it was about. The breast cancer movement is a shining example of exactly what people were talking about when they said the people affected are the best for being in charge of their movements. The fact they were so successful they've become harmful to other cancer research doesn't negate the fact that they achieved their goals.

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Lanz wrote: »

    This is a pretty uncharitable read of this article. I don't think it is wrong to call for the movement to decry riots.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    A Korean person on my Facebook page posted an article about how the Japanese Rising Sun flag is offensive, followed shortly by a Japanese person saying that people offended by that flag need to stop living in the past.

    Interesting parallel there.

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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    A Korean person on my Facebook page posted an article about how the Japanese Rising Sun flag is offensive, followed shortly by a Japanese person saying that people offended by that flag need to stop living in the past.

    Interesting parallel there.

    The Japanese person is wrong. The Rising Sun flag was the flag under which the Japanese Empire declared war on most of Asia and committed horrible atrocities. Its the equivalent of the swastika flag of Nazi Germany for most Asian nations

    And that's separate from the War with the US.

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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    A Korean person on my Facebook page posted an article about how the Japanese Rising Sun flag is offensive, followed shortly by a Japanese person saying that people offended by that flag need to stop living in the past.

    Interesting parallel there.

    The Japanese person is wrong. The Rising Sun flag was the flag under which the Japanese Empire declared war on most of Asia and committed horrible atrocities. Its the equivalent of the swastika flag of Nazi Germany for most Asian nations

    And that's separate from the War with the US.

    The Japanese person has also been living in a country that denies it was ever in a war and has an actual comic that paints the Axis powers as light hearted idiots that don't mean any harm. They as a culture are really messed up .

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  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    "All Lives Matter" is, in itself, a fine sentiment.

    But imagine if someone says "fight breast cancer!" and you respond with "how about we fight all disease?"

    Or someone says "support our troops!" and you answer "how about we support all occupations?"

    Nobody would ever respond like that, though. Because it is a stupid dickhole nonsequitor.

    And yet for some reason, that is deemed a suitable response to BLM.

    Wow, I wonder what that reason is. It is a mystery.

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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Mortious wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    "All Lives Matter" is, in itself, a fine sentiment.

    But imagine if someone says "fight breast cancer!" and you respond with "how about we fight all disease?"

    Or someone says "support our troops!" and you answer "how about we support all occupations?"

    Nobody would ever respond like that, though. Because it is a stupid dickhole nonsequitor.

    And yet for some reason, that is deemed a suitable response to BLM.

    Wow, I wonder what that reason is. It is a mystery.

    Right, and I never said otherwise.

    But if you see some random person tweet that, do you assume that they're being malicious/racist, or just uninformed/naive?

    Outside of any other information, I usually assume the latter.

    If I see a white person post that yes I will assume they are casually racist or unaware of why that's racist.

    A lot of white people don't understand things are offensive! I'm asked where I'm from constantly and people are legitimately stunned when I say Pittsburgh. The typical follow up was "No before you moved here". That used to really hurt me when I was younger.

    There are people who cannot grasp that non white people aren't usually just normal people with similar struggles and backgrounds. I'm glad you can but you're ironically in a minority

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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    I guess the question is... We're people saying #alllivesmatter before BLM? No? Then it's pretty safe to assume the intent when people say that is a dissmisive or worse response to BLM.

    Not exactly, but people have been spouting sanctity of life for a long time. It's also been a long time since we've been serious about that

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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    A Korean person on my Facebook page posted an article about how the Japanese Rising Sun flag is offensive, followed shortly by a Japanese person saying that people offended by that flag need to stop living in the past.

    Interesting parallel there.

    The Japanese person is wrong. The Rising Sun flag was the flag under which the Japanese Empire declared war on most of Asia and committed horrible atrocities. Its the equivalent of the swastika flag of Nazi Germany for most Asian nations

    And that's separate from the War with the US.

    The Japanese person has also been living in a country that denies it was ever in a war and has an actual comic that paints the Axis powers as light hearted idiots that don't mean any harm. They as a culture are really messed up .

    All of East Asia culture is severely messed up and racist against itself. They hate not only the symbols, but the people and the culture, and it goes every which way. It's all very medieval.

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  • FuzzytadpoleFuzzytadpole Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »

    This is a pretty uncharitable read of this article. I don't think it is wrong to call for the movement to decry riots.

    It assumes that they are obligated to in the first place. To use a dumb analogy, it is like expecting Muslims to apologize for terrorism, and these things aren't even remotely similar gravity wise.

  • LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »

    This is a pretty uncharitable read of this article. I don't think it is wrong to call for the movement to decry riots.

    It assumes that they are obligated to in the first place. To use a dumb analogy, it is like expecting Muslims to apologize for terrorism, and these things aren't even remotely similar gravity wise.

    It's rough when we start saying that people are obligated to do something. Obligation is pretty serious, and I'm not sure that even SKFM thinks that they are obligated to, unless that obligation is framed by the following.

    It might be politically advantageous (and thus practical) to denounce such things. So if one is obligated by practicality, they may be obligated to.

    It might not be, I don't really know either way. But it's not unreasonable for someone to have the intuition that making public statements condemning rioting might be politically beneficial.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited September 2015
    Lanz wrote: »

    This is a pretty uncharitable read of this article. I don't think it is wrong to call for the movement to decry riots.

    It assumes that they are obligated to in the first place. To use a dumb analogy, it is like expecting Muslims to apologize for terrorism, and these things aren't even remotely similar gravity wise.

    How does one expect a headless organization to condemn something?

    If I just made a twitter account, condemned cop killing, and tagged it BLM: Mission accomplished?

    I suspect not, as I obviously don't speak for the movement as a whole. No one does, and because no one can be kicked out for being an asshole, we will get locked in a cycle of expecting appologies and/or condemnation, from a person that doesn't exist, every time someone, somewhere, is an asshole.

    Americans did all those things, is America expected to appologize? No, because identifying with a group does make us not make us responsible for unsanctioned activites perpetrated by others within that group; even when the perpetrators claim they did it on our behalf.

    Unless BLM sanctioned these activities, they are not responsible for them. Condemnation would be nice, but shouldn't be required, and to ask for an apology is a straight up dick move.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
  • LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    A Korean person on my Facebook page posted an article about how the Japanese Rising Sun flag is offensive, followed shortly by a Japanese person saying that people offended by that flag need to stop living in the past.

    Interesting parallel there.

    The Japanese person is wrong. The Rising Sun flag was the flag under which the Japanese Empire declared war on most of Asia and committed horrible atrocities. Its the equivalent of the swastika flag of Nazi Germany for most Asian nations

    And that's separate from the War with the US.

    The Japanese person has also been living in a country that denies it was ever in a war and has an actual comic that paints the Axis powers as light hearted idiots that don't mean any harm. They as a culture are really messed up .

    All of East Asia culture is severely messed up and racist against itself. They hate not only the symbols, but the people and the culture, and it goes every which way. It's all very medieval.

    Ethnic prejudice is pretty widespread throughout human history. I think that white people and westerners in general have a tendency to think that Asian racial prejudices are strange largely because we don't recognize the vast differences between the various ethnic groups. It doesn't make sense to a lot of white folk why all these groups hate one another because their cultures are all sort of mixed together to form some idea of "asian."

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  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »

    This is a pretty uncharitable read of this article. I don't think it is wrong to call for the movement to decry riots.

    It assumes that they are obligated to in the first place. To use a dumb analogy, it is like expecting Muslims to apologize for terrorism, and these things aren't even remotely similar gravity wise.

    How does one expect a headless organization to condemn something?

    If I just made a twitter account, condemned cop killing, and tagged it BLM: Mission accomplished?

    I suspect not, as I obviously don't speak for the movement as a whole. No one does, and because no one can be kicked out for being an asshole, we will get locked in a cycle of expecting appologies and/or condemnation, from a person that doesn't exist, every time someone, somewhere, is an asshole.

    Americans did all those things, is America expected to appologize? No, because identifying with a group does make us not make us responsible for unsanctioned activites perpetrated by others within that group; even when the perpetrators claim they did it on our behalf.

    Unless BLM sanctioned these activities, they are not responsible for them. Condemnation would be nice, but shouldn't be required, and to ask for an apology is a straight up dick move.

    But this is the same thing GruberGump ran into--BLM can't condemn OR sanction anything, because it has no leadership. It's a movement and a hashtag, not an organization, and that makes it very easy for its opponents to blame it for everything done in its name. I could start a twitter called iheartBLM and use it to laud cop killings, and that's just as much of an official BLM statement.

    This is one reason why movements need faces if they're going to accomplish anything.

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