Do not forget these are straight up testing changes and they do not even remotely have a commitment to a date yet. Nor a commitment to them even happening. They said they want to try it and see what happens. They need to see how these things play out instead of just guess at them. I am sure they have a general idea these kinds of things are what might happen. And I would hope they KNOW there are going to be a lot of other balancing changes required to go along with these stat changes. Which includes soaking heroes.
Sure, but they're probably GOING to happen at some point after the testing.
Like, there's no point in going ahead and using a bunch of time and resources into putting this out there without the intention of putting it on Live, at some point.
For now, it's just testing, but they are assuredly going to put this out in the future. Perhaps with tweaked numbers, but it's coming. That's also why they made that blog post, to let us know in advance so we can yknow, mentally prepare ourselves.
The main thing for the short term is just gathering data and seeing how it works out in a psuedo-live environment, then they'll tweak it and prepare it for Live.
Do not forget these are straight up testing changes and they do not even remotely have a commitment to a date yet. Nor a commitment to them even happening. They said they want to try it and see what happens. They need to see how these things play out instead of just guess at them. I am sure they have a general idea these kinds of things are what might happen. And I would hope they KNOW there are going to be a lot of other balancing changes required to go along with these stat changes. Which includes soaking heroes.
Sure, but they're probably GOING to happen at some point after the testing.
Like, there's no point in going ahead and using a bunch of time and resources into putting this out there without the intention of putting it on Live, at some point.
They quickly dumped artifacts despite all the resources that went into creating those.
Do not forget these are straight up testing changes and they do not even remotely have a commitment to a date yet. Nor a commitment to them even happening. They said they want to try it and see what happens. They need to see how these things play out instead of just guess at them. I am sure they have a general idea these kinds of things are what might happen. And I would hope they KNOW there are going to be a lot of other balancing changes required to go along with these stat changes. Which includes soaking heroes.
Sure, but they're probably GOING to happen at some point after the testing.
Like, there's no point in going ahead and using a bunch of time and resources into putting this out there without the intention of putting it on Live, at some point.
For now, it's just testing, but they are assuredly going to put this out in the future. Perhaps with tweaked numbers, but it's coming. That's also why they made that blog post, to let us know in advance so we can yknow, mentally prepare ourselves.
The main thing for the short term is just gathering data and seeing how it works out in a psuedo-live environment, then they'll tweak it and prepare it for Live.
Not necessarily, look how much effort went into the Artifact system.
+1
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
That's true. The "steamroll" is much more pronounced on maps with "all or nothing objectives" where if you lose the teamfight you ALSO lose to a one sided giant pushing monster. I'm specifically thinking Infernal Shrines, Battlefield of Eternity. One of the real problems with some of the newer maps is that while Dragon Shire is an "all or nothing" objective, it also eats one of their teammates to get the big monster, so you're only ever defending against four other heroes, whereas on BoE and Shrines, you're getting a super boss plus five dudes hitting you.
But see, this is where Infernal Shrines is actually a trap.
If the Punisher was not beating the shit out of structures as much as he was, it would NOT be a steamroll because its a big enough, long enough map to hold out till 20ish. However, there is this fact that is causing level divides, but the punisher both destroying entire teams AND pushing structures harder than almost any other boss monster in the game is causing the map to end too early for that power gap to close. If he was working properly, it actually wouldn't be an example.
The reason dragonshire is the literal opposite is because as has been described in the alternate conversation, often time you are forced to lane for prolonged times, thus forcing the first big push MUCH later in a game than normal. Which is when the gaps close.
0
FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
Or the cost to build a dedicated team in team league. Or the reduction. And then dedicated teams all together.
They're not above scrapping shit that turns out badly
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Well there is also the fact that while they might not scrap it and it actually WILL come, they could drop this approach and go back to the drawing board.
You can't like, just say because something took a lot of work that it has to be put into game regardless if it is good for the game or not.
However, right now the approach they are taking is a heavy hand at the numbers and those numbers could be tweaked with a whole new goal when this one doesn't work. But trying to change that power curve is absolutely required. I kind of thought they might take the approach of making stat gains scale per level and fine tune each and every levels stat gain so you might only gain 5 attack damage when you have 50, but gain 10 when you have 120 or something like that. Basically manually control the curve. Hell, if you wanted to just garuntee its a smooth power curve make all stat gains a % of what it was the level previous so you ALWAYS gain the same amount of power, and let the exp curve control the power gap.
Do not forget these are straight up testing changes and they do not even remotely have a commitment to a date yet. Nor a commitment to them even happening. They said they want to try it and see what happens. They need to see how these things play out instead of just guess at them. I am sure they have a general idea these kinds of things are what might happen. And I would hope they KNOW there are going to be a lot of other balancing changes required to go along with these stat changes. Which includes soaking heroes.
Sure, but they're probably GOING to happen at some point after the testing.
Like, there's no point in going ahead and using a bunch of time and resources into putting this out there without the intention of putting it on Live, at some point.
They quickly dumped artifacts despite all the resources that went into creating those.
Do not forget these are straight up testing changes and they do not even remotely have a commitment to a date yet. Nor a commitment to them even happening. They said they want to try it and see what happens. They need to see how these things play out instead of just guess at them. I am sure they have a general idea these kinds of things are what might happen. And I would hope they KNOW there are going to be a lot of other balancing changes required to go along with these stat changes. Which includes soaking heroes.
Sure, but they're probably GOING to happen at some point after the testing.
Like, there's no point in going ahead and using a bunch of time and resources into putting this out there without the intention of putting it on Live, at some point.
For now, it's just testing, but they are assuredly going to put this out in the future. Perhaps with tweaked numbers, but it's coming. That's also why they made that blog post, to let us know in advance so we can yknow, mentally prepare ourselves.
The main thing for the short term is just gathering data and seeing how it works out in a psuedo-live environment, then they'll tweak it and prepare it for Live.
Not necessarily, look how much effort went into the Artifact system.
Ah, those are both good points actually. Fair enough!
I will say that the difference between Artifacts and Scaling changes is that Artifacts had a huge blowback from the community, and so far people seem rather keen on the Scaling changes.
I mean, who knows, right? Maybe people get in there and start testing and hate it. But so far the reaction seems positive.
Again though, good points. I'll say it's a high chance of happening, but you're right, it also just plain might not.
Do not forget these are straight up testing changes and they do not even remotely have a commitment to a date yet. Nor a commitment to them even happening. They said they want to try it and see what happens. They need to see how these things play out instead of just guess at them. I am sure they have a general idea these kinds of things are what might happen. And I would hope they KNOW there are going to be a lot of other balancing changes required to go along with these stat changes. Which includes soaking heroes.
Sure, but they're probably GOING to happen at some point after the testing.
Like, there's no point in going ahead and using a bunch of time and resources into putting this out there without the intention of putting it on Live, at some point.
They quickly dumped artifacts despite all the resources that went into creating those.
Do not forget these are straight up testing changes and they do not even remotely have a commitment to a date yet. Nor a commitment to them even happening. They said they want to try it and see what happens. They need to see how these things play out instead of just guess at them. I am sure they have a general idea these kinds of things are what might happen. And I would hope they KNOW there are going to be a lot of other balancing changes required to go along with these stat changes. Which includes soaking heroes.
Sure, but they're probably GOING to happen at some point after the testing.
Like, there's no point in going ahead and using a bunch of time and resources into putting this out there without the intention of putting it on Live, at some point.
For now, it's just testing, but they are assuredly going to put this out in the future. Perhaps with tweaked numbers, but it's coming. That's also why they made that blog post, to let us know in advance so we can yknow, mentally prepare ourselves.
The main thing for the short term is just gathering data and seeing how it works out in a psuedo-live environment, then they'll tweak it and prepare it for Live.
Not necessarily, look how much effort went into the Artifact system.
Ah, those are both good points actually. Fair enough!
I will say that the difference between Artifacts and Scaling changes is that Artifacts had a huge blowback from the community, and so far people seem rather keen on the Scaling changes.
I mean, who knows, right? Maybe people get in there and start testing and hate it. But so far the reaction seems positive.
Again though, good points. I'll say it's a high chance of happening, but you're right, it also just plain might not.
Very true. If the changes are turning out like they hope, I think the community will be very accepting of them.
Artifacts, though... hoo-boy. I was worried for Blizz's safety during that debacle.
So I finished my placement matches. I always play with the same buddy and we got placed in rank 21. Is that good? What does that mean? Where does that place us vs everyone else? How does the system work?
Complete dogshit. It was a system where you had to sink a ton of gold into out of game bonuses, so that you got fewer characters and there was a good chance if you were newer at the game, the enemy Zeratul would straight up have 10% better stats than you.
Also, they were powerful enough that it was impossible to balance a hero around no artifacts and maxed artifacts, so the balance would have been permanently broken.
Thankfully, people almost universally realized they were awful and told Blizzard such in very clear terms.
Artifacts were a hilariously poorly implemented meta-game feature that were implemented sometime during Alpha. It was an out-of-match augment system where you had these artifact gems and you had to slot passives into them. You had to buy the passives with gold. The whole thing was a giant gold sink, and it had extreme negative ramifications on the balance of matches. People without artifacts could not compete with people who had artifacts. And in literally every instance, there was always a "right way" to build your character, so even though t here was an illusion of choice, there was no choice at all.
Also, certain heroes became hilariously broken when you stacked certain passive effects on them through the artifact system. Diablo was probably the most notably broken of all during this short period of time.
Artifacts were so universally reviled and hated and criticized that they were pulled out of the game not even 2 weeks from their release.
heh... that's right
soon we'll be able to say, in old geezer voice... "you know, you should have been there during the artifact apocalypse of '14. Boy, this World War 3 is shit compared to what we had to go through there, son."
the best thing about artifact was getting 50,000 FREE gold to test it out and not spending it on artifacts but on heroes instead ^_^
this was all before the big wipe of late 14 though
son... you ain't seen shit
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I am more imagining the ability damage bonus one with the old gathering power.
Whew finally broke my losing streak of this week. Between QM and HL I think I had like 14 losses in a row. They were all hard fought, though and only 1 game had a toxic player so it's all good.
One pattern I've definitely noticed in determining a win/loss is that in the win that just happened we took camps. A lot. In all of the other ones my teammates insisted on pushing hard after every team fight win, and lingering too long. I just couldn't pull them away. Sometimes we even defeated the enemy as they rezzed and came to defend, but it just isn't enough. The enemy took camps and the camps either distracted our efforts or multitasked and pushed us until we loss.
Whew finally broke my losing streak of this week. Between QM and HL I think I had like 14 losses in a row. They were all hard fought, though and only 1 game had a toxic player so it's all good.
One pattern I've definitely noticed in determining a win/loss is that in the win that just happened we took camps. A lot. In all of the other ones my teammates insisted on pushing hard after every team fight win, and lingering too long. I just couldn't pull them away. Sometimes we even defeated the enemy as they rezzed and came to defend, but it just isn't enough. The enemy took camps and the camps either distracted our efforts or multitasked and pushed us until we loss.
Dude never underestimate camps. Ever. I am in a lot of games where people just straight up ignore camps in favor of objectives and it's like mmmm why you bein dumbbbb mmmmmmmm
lke the objective is Most Important, but camps are Second Important, and if you lose the objective despite trying you had best be takin camps son
I mean, I don't even play against real people and I know that camps are important, especially right before an objective. This is shit that should be taught in the first 10 minutes of launching the game.
Whew finally broke my losing streak of this week. Between QM and HL I think I had like 14 losses in a row. They were all hard fought, though and only 1 game had a toxic player so it's all good.
One pattern I've definitely noticed in determining a win/loss is that in the win that just happened we took camps. A lot. In all of the other ones my teammates insisted on pushing hard after every team fight win, and lingering too long. I just couldn't pull them away. Sometimes we even defeated the enemy as they rezzed and came to defend, but it just isn't enough. The enemy took camps and the camps either distracted our efforts or multitasked and pushed us until we loss.
Dude never underestimate camps. Ever. I am in a lot of games where people just straight up ignore camps in favor of objectives and it's like mmmm why you bein dumbbbb mmmmmmmm
lke the objective is Most Important, but camps are Second Important, and if you lose the objective despite trying you had best be takin camps son
I see it plenty both ways. People too concerned with taking camps when they have a numerical advantage rather then doing permanent damage to structures. Or people just ignoring camps all game. Unless we're talking about a boss, you probably want to get as much structural damage in as you can while you have the numerical advantage. And then as the enemy respawns, retreat and maybe steal a camp or two while they have to clean up the lane you were pushing, and then fall back to your side of the map and grab those camps.
In pro games you can see them abandon even map objectives when they win a team fight to get some free structures. But they also get out before the counter attack and go pick up the objective on the way.
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Whew finally broke my losing streak of this week. Between QM and HL I think I had like 14 losses in a row. They were all hard fought, though and only 1 game had a toxic player so it's all good.
One pattern I've definitely noticed in determining a win/loss is that in the win that just happened we took camps. A lot. In all of the other ones my teammates insisted on pushing hard after every team fight win, and lingering too long. I just couldn't pull them away. Sometimes we even defeated the enemy as they rezzed and came to defend, but it just isn't enough. The enemy took camps and the camps either distracted our efforts or multitasked and pushed us until we loss.
This is why I will sometimes just outright try to solo a camp out of frustration. I just get these strings of games where my team outright ignores ALL camps the whole game. And it is not because there is something better to do. And no, rushing into a team fight when you are down 3 levels is not something better to do.
When the opposing team figures out you don't know what the shit a merc camp is, and starts taking yours, you lose those games hard no matter how strong your comp is.
0
FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
Just a game where "don't be mean" single-highhandedly stopped our entire team from bashing Leoric.
He was playing terribly, and the other three on our team were on his case.
"LOL leo is crap"
"was gonna say"
...
"leo uninstall"
"yea u bad"
"don't be mean"
"ya sorry, just play smart"
And then not one more comment all game toward him. He still played like shit but the rest of the team were able to focus on their own game.
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
"Don't be mean" is basically my default response to people being dicks in-game. A lot of people playing are kids or just get sucked into the competitiveness and don't realize how they are behaving. If they keep being dicks after that, then at least I gave them a chance to prove otherwise, and can use the Report feature with a clean conscience.
Also, the whole thing with artifacts is part of what separates Blizzard from other design studios. I play MWO once in a while, and that game is so overburdened and imbalanced with ridiculous F2P bullshit that I've basically sworn to never give them a single penny.
it's not even like I'm bad at them, it's that I don't want to have to play warriors constantly because it's the only way to get gold because that's what my dailies are giving me. dailies are a chore, you can't play the heroes you want until you do your chores.
it's not even like I'm bad at them, it's that I don't want to have to play warriors constantly because it's the only way to get gold because that's what my dailies are giving me. dailies are a chore, you can't play the heroes you want until you do your chores.
Leave the quest in your log and you won't get a duplicate. My wife has had the same play 3 warrior games quest in hers for weeks because she doesn't care to play them.
Don't do them then? Just play the game. Sooner or later you play characters that fulfill X quest.
0
FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
Eh, I'm totally fine with the daily system. I do wish they'd put in another treasure goblin type bonus though.
You really should get to know all roles. Even all heroes. It makes it much easier to play against them. So if dailies force you to play a warrior twice....meh
Don't do them then? Just play the game. Sooner or later you play characters that fulfill X quest.
if only just playing the game gave you gold. you either do your chores, or you don't get new heroes.
I'm level 40. I don't need daily quests to figure out what roles I like and what roles I don't like, I already know. I've known for a while.
Playing the game does give you gold.
And you'd only need to play anywhere from 334 to 1000 games for a 10,000 gold hero. It's not practical to ignore dailies if you want any sort of gold income.
Don't do them then? Just play the game. Sooner or later you play characters that fulfill X quest.
if only just playing the game gave you gold. you either do your chores, or you don't get new heroes.
I'm level 40. I don't need daily quests to figure out what roles I like and what roles I don't like, I already know. I've known for a while.
Playing the game does give you gold.
And you'd only need to play anywhere from 334 to 1000 games for a 10,000 gold hero. It's not practical to ignore dailies if you want any sort of gold income.
Yeah, never said it was, but if someone hates dailies... don't know what they want to hear, right?
I don't get how you can complain that it's too slow to get things for free. It's free. If you don't want to spend a dime on the game, you've gotta grind it out.
I know shit is pricey, but wait for sales. I have 25 heroes and several skins, and I've spent maybe the price of a retail game. That's way more heroes than I need.
You could easily spend $20 and get a nice roster of heroes you like, plus the cheapies with the gold you earn on the way up to level 40.
Posts
Sure, but they're probably GOING to happen at some point after the testing.
Like, there's no point in going ahead and using a bunch of time and resources into putting this out there without the intention of putting it on Live, at some point.
For now, it's just testing, but they are assuredly going to put this out in the future. Perhaps with tweaked numbers, but it's coming. That's also why they made that blog post, to let us know in advance so we can yknow, mentally prepare ourselves.
The main thing for the short term is just gathering data and seeing how it works out in a psuedo-live environment, then they'll tweak it and prepare it for Live.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
They quickly dumped artifacts despite all the resources that went into creating those.
XBL: InvaderJims
Bnet: Pudgestomp#11153
Not necessarily, look how much effort went into the Artifact system.
But see, this is where Infernal Shrines is actually a trap.
If the Punisher was not beating the shit out of structures as much as he was, it would NOT be a steamroll because its a big enough, long enough map to hold out till 20ish. However, there is this fact that is causing level divides, but the punisher both destroying entire teams AND pushing structures harder than almost any other boss monster in the game is causing the map to end too early for that power gap to close. If he was working properly, it actually wouldn't be an example.
The reason dragonshire is the literal opposite is because as has been described in the alternate conversation, often time you are forced to lane for prolonged times, thus forcing the first big push MUCH later in a game than normal. Which is when the gaps close.
They're not above scrapping shit that turns out badly
You can't like, just say because something took a lot of work that it has to be put into game regardless if it is good for the game or not.
However, right now the approach they are taking is a heavy hand at the numbers and those numbers could be tweaked with a whole new goal when this one doesn't work. But trying to change that power curve is absolutely required. I kind of thought they might take the approach of making stat gains scale per level and fine tune each and every levels stat gain so you might only gain 5 attack damage when you have 50, but gain 10 when you have 120 or something like that. Basically manually control the curve. Hell, if you wanted to just garuntee its a smooth power curve make all stat gains a % of what it was the level previous so you ALWAYS gain the same amount of power, and let the exp curve control the power gap.
Ah, those are both good points actually. Fair enough!
I will say that the difference between Artifacts and Scaling changes is that Artifacts had a huge blowback from the community, and so far people seem rather keen on the Scaling changes.
I mean, who knows, right? Maybe people get in there and start testing and hate it. But so far the reaction seems positive.
Again though, good points. I'll say it's a high chance of happening, but you're right, it also just plain might not.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Very true. If the changes are turning out like they hope, I think the community will be very accepting of them.
Artifacts, though... hoo-boy. I was worried for Blizz's safety during that debacle.
XBL: InvaderJims
Bnet: Pudgestomp#11153
Artifacts were the HotS version of Runes from LoL. The community collectively voiced a seething hatred for the idea.
Blizz reversed their decision very quickly.
XBL: InvaderJims
Bnet: Pudgestomp#11153
Complete dogshit. It was a system where you had to sink a ton of gold into out of game bonuses, so that you got fewer characters and there was a good chance if you were newer at the game, the enemy Zeratul would straight up have 10% better stats than you.
Also, they were powerful enough that it was impossible to balance a hero around no artifacts and maxed artifacts, so the balance would have been permanently broken.
Thankfully, people almost universally realized they were awful and told Blizzard such in very clear terms.
Also, certain heroes became hilariously broken when you stacked certain passive effects on them through the artifact system. Diablo was probably the most notably broken of all during this short period of time.
Artifacts were so universally reviled and hated and criticized that they were pulled out of the game not even 2 weeks from their release.
Artifacts were just a laughably transparent way of trying to nerf gold gains. It didn't work and they were forced to straight-up nerf gold.
Imagine Diablo with a permanent Regrowth HoT on him. He really was the Lord of Terror for that week.
soon we'll be able to say, in old geezer voice... "you know, you should have been there during the artifact apocalypse of '14. Boy, this World War 3 is shit compared to what we had to go through there, son."
the best thing about artifact was getting 50,000 FREE gold to test it out and not spending it on artifacts but on heroes instead ^_^
this was all before the big wipe of late 14 though
son... you ain't seen shit
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I can assume that was a fun time to be Nova.
One pattern I've definitely noticed in determining a win/loss is that in the win that just happened we took camps. A lot. In all of the other ones my teammates insisted on pushing hard after every team fight win, and lingering too long. I just couldn't pull them away. Sometimes we even defeated the enemy as they rezzed and came to defend, but it just isn't enough. The enemy took camps and the camps either distracted our efforts or multitasked and pushed us until we loss.
Switch: 6589-6405-3399
Dude never underestimate camps. Ever. I am in a lot of games where people just straight up ignore camps in favor of objectives and it's like mmmm why you bein dumbbbb mmmmmmmm
lke the objective is Most Important, but camps are Second Important, and if you lose the objective despite trying you had best be takin camps son
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
Twitch Wed-Sun, 2-5pm CST
I see it plenty both ways. People too concerned with taking camps when they have a numerical advantage rather then doing permanent damage to structures. Or people just ignoring camps all game. Unless we're talking about a boss, you probably want to get as much structural damage in as you can while you have the numerical advantage. And then as the enemy respawns, retreat and maybe steal a camp or two while they have to clean up the lane you were pushing, and then fall back to your side of the map and grab those camps.
In pro games you can see them abandon even map objectives when they win a team fight to get some free structures. But they also get out before the counter attack and go pick up the objective on the way.
This is why I will sometimes just outright try to solo a camp out of frustration. I just get these strings of games where my team outright ignores ALL camps the whole game. And it is not because there is something better to do. And no, rushing into a team fight when you are down 3 levels is not something better to do.
When the opposing team figures out you don't know what the shit a merc camp is, and starts taking yours, you lose those games hard no matter how strong your comp is.
He was playing terribly, and the other three on our team were on his case.
"LOL leo is crap"
"was gonna say"
...
"leo uninstall"
"yea u bad"
"don't be mean"
"ya sorry, just play smart"
And then not one more comment all game toward him. He still played like shit but the rest of the team were able to focus on their own game.
I'm pretty sure I died when my spirits got killed
If you died, they killed 4 Chens that day.
Chen doesn't die if his spirits die.
Also, the whole thing with artifacts is part of what separates Blizzard from other design studios. I play MWO once in a while, and that game is so overburdened and imbalanced with ridiculous F2P bullshit that I've basically sworn to never give them a single penny.
you must have been low health when it popped and you were killed quickly once the last spirit went down
Could be worse. Could be Hearthstone. At least with HotS you can knock out quests you're bad at against the AI.
Leave the quest in your log and you won't get a duplicate. My wife has had the same play 3 warrior games quest in hers for weeks because she doesn't care to play them.
XBL: InvaderJims
Bnet: Pudgestomp#11153
a better solution is not having such a dumb system in the first place
You really should get to know all roles. Even all heroes. It makes it much easier to play against them. So if dailies force you to play a warrior twice....meh
if only just playing the game gave you gold. you either do your chores, or you don't get new heroes.
I'm level 40. I don't need daily quests to figure out what roles I like and what roles I don't like, I already know. I've known for a while.
Playing the game does give you gold.
This is only technically true. In practice, the per game gold is so low the heat death of the universe will come before it gets you anywhere.
And you'd only need to play anywhere from 334 to 1000 games for a 10,000 gold hero. It's not practical to ignore dailies if you want any sort of gold income.
Steam: TimIsOnSteam
Battle.net: TimIsOnBnet#1745
Switch: SW-7012-4788-7410
PSN: TimIsOnTheNet
It's quite a bit of gold, really.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Yeah, never said it was, but if someone hates dailies... don't know what they want to hear, right?
I don't get how you can complain that it's too slow to get things for free. It's free. If you don't want to spend a dime on the game, you've gotta grind it out.
I know shit is pricey, but wait for sales. I have 25 heroes and several skins, and I've spent maybe the price of a retail game. That's way more heroes than I need.
You could easily spend $20 and get a nice roster of heroes you like, plus the cheapies with the gold you earn on the way up to level 40.