Lol, was about to go to bed but checked mmo champion real quick. Not even like a day after I said I missed 8 piece sets they put some into an alpha build... Cant say they have interesting set bonuses but they are clearly meant for doing world quests and not much more.
Pvp gear acquisition now will match pve, where there are also no guarantees you get that chest piece on any given week. People mad, news at 11.
Except people who do PvE can down more than 2 bosses a week for a chance at gear, and generally one boss will have a tier piece while another has an off piece. It will probably be easier to get ahead in pvp by doing pve if they don't make the gearing for it make more sense. I'm more opposed to that because raiding usually takes more time than a couple BGs every so often, but since pve gear usually has superior art teams on it, whatever, at least i'll look good.
From a PvE standpoint, I could debate this with you, but I don't think either of us would get anything out of it. However, from a PvP standpoint, I understand the point you're trying to get across.
Why would i play something else when i have friends that play wow, queues are almost instant, it is already familiar, and i do things other than pvp? I could argue there are other games that require more precision to beat pve bosses such as dark souls. Im curious what pvp you think is better than wows. Gw2? Terra? Those are the only ones that are even polished and they have plenty of problems. Wow has an appealing aesthetic and is usually fun, im clearly not alone in thinking so because tons of people do it. No other mmo has the number of active pvpers on it that wow does. Sure i could go play lol or hots, but those are different games.
Pvp just happens to be what i like to do. Raiding got a little stale after a few expansions and i dont have the time to do scheduled events with guilds. I dont think lfr is compelling enough to spend my time on. So i pvp and make gold for enchants and to collect mounts and battle pets. Ill also tank or heal 5 mans every so often. There isnt another mmo that you can easily do all those things in, especially the pet battles.
I would also say it still boggles my mind people still look down on a part of the game that has been in since launch. The honor system took a little while for them to finish, but it was supposed to be in at launch. At this point its been 10+ years and is still very popular despite the devs' lack of attention until legion.
SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
I loved the idea of PVP and even made my first character on a PVP server when the game came out. I actually had a lot of fun those first few months too. I didn't actively seek out PVP, but found the extra sense of danger when in contested/enemy territory to be fun. I even have a fun PVP story or two from that era.
Eventually, though, I realized I hated PVP. My first character is still on that PVP server (Eredar), but I transferred two of my other characters to a normal server and haven't really looked back.
After playing with my wife i totally get not liking pvp. She doesnt like getting ganked and really only likes to do BGs because she recognizes it is easy gear, and even then usually only does them when Im with her. With how giant gear gaps are now, wpvp isnt really much more than basically ganking lowbies, so I certainly cant begrudge not wanting to be on a pvp server. The way the game world works is completely different now than at launch and I would probably just roll on a pve server now because there isnt a really compelling reason to go pvp unless you play on emerald dream. My characters are already on pvp servers though so I just deal with it. That most of them are on sargeras is kind of funny since it is wildly imbalanced towards alliance, and is more known for pve than pvp.
I've always felt that the PvP portion of the game was stapled on, in part because it was such a balancing nightmare between the two aspects of the game. I felt like the developers specifically added PvP only to keep as many people playing the game as possible (I used absolute terms on purpose). My thought was always that they should have added entirely different talents and possibly even abilities specific for PvP, if they wanted to do it right. You could zone into a lobby/queue area for PvP, and that would enable your PvP profile, with all of its talents and abilities. Then you could go off and have fun in PvP without affecting PvE. But instead they said, "Fuck it, use your PvE abilities and someone gets to be stupid OP for like 6 months at a time." And that was the way it was from 2006 until, what, WOD?
Whereas, my understanding is that other games such as GW2 (the example that is usually provided in similar discussions) are explained to me as being designed for PvP from the ground up. So if a game is supposedly designed around PvP, the play/gear/balance should presumably be better because there isn't any PvE element getting in the way. No? Which should then lead to more fun play, and not gnashing of teeth over someone killing everyone because an ability or class mechanic was added that was designed for raiding.
Yes, I'm likely wrong on multiple points, and you guys are probably going to spend 7 posts pointing that out to me. I haven't done any PvP since probably Cata. So, there, I laid out all my assumptions and presumptions.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
The PvP in GW2 is pretty terrible, though.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Well, the only thing I will correct you on is that PVP was planned from day 1. The whole "Alliance vs Horde" was intended to be conveyed using PVP. When the pvp ranking system was turned on shortly after launch, I remember hearing it was supposed to be released at launch but didn't make it in time. And battlegrounds were in development well before launch as well.
Again though, that is all opinion. Which is fine, but don't go trying to act like something is wrong with people for liking it. Competitive gaming as a whole has always functioned well balanced or not. Look at the popularity MvC2 had and was likely one of the most broken games of all time.
Is there anyone who doesn't feel like PVE and PVP need separate rulesets, aside from the developers? And not just for World of Warcraft, the same can be said for a number of games. How many times over the years did PVE get screwed over because something didn't work in PVP?
Is there anyone who doesn't feel like PVE and PVP need separate rulesets, aside from the developers? And not just for World of Warcraft, the same can be said for a number of games. How many times over the years did PVE get screwed over because something didn't work in PVP?
That train runs both ways though, quite a few classes have received nerfs in pvp due to something being crazy in pve. Warlocks in particular have been on the receiving end of both actually from expansion to expansion. Trying to make arenas an esport is probably what caused the most problems with the dual nature of the game. When the game was just battlegrounds imbalances were still a thing, but people didn't have an equivalent of saying "i cant get to 2k+ rating because my class is bad", so they just had to deal with it.
Also this, everyone in GW2 goes with zerkers or soldier stats for pvp which are pretty much glass cannon itemization. GW2 is basically just whoever crits harder faster and on the right person. There are some exceptions, but it just isn't as fun for me.
@Mugsley, I can't say your assumptions are terribly wrong or off. PvP has always been an afterthought to the devs. Any sort of pvp zone theyve tried have been remarkably out of touch with what players want. With Legion it will be 2 expansions in a row without a new BG, and all theyve done is added an emerald dream themed arena. AV and IoC are still in their current terrible iterations, SotA still exists, and I don't think there have been pvp only armor models since vanilla (may be wrong on this). GW2 was also praised for its large scale pvp(WvW), but its small scale BG style pvp is just a glass cannon shitshow. There are some fun mechanics to mess around with I just do not enjoy it. Also, GW2 has actually been adding pve content for a while now, I'm not sure if there have been balance changes in response to it, but the possibility is there. There were also 80 levels of pve to do. Just to share an amusing example of how poorly balanced the game was at launch though, there was an ability thieves had where they basically could use an ability to speed up attack animations and GCD for like 3s, but in that 3s could essentially shadowstep+ambush someone 6-7 times from stealth while popping a couple damage boosts. By the time the game registered it was even happening the person being attacked would probably be dead. It was eventually fixed, but that isn't something that should have snuck in if it was truly built for pvp.
I'm excited for the legion pvp changes, I just hope Blizzard hasn't turned too many people away by the time it gets here for it to be good but no one plays it. I do kind of think some of the pvp only spells should be in the main talent tree and not the pvp talent tree though. Ancient Mistweaver Arts is one that seems like it should be baseline and not tied to pvp for example. Some classes might get a little screwed in pve due to how they are doing the pvp talents.
Yup the changes they are doing to pvp are long overdue. You simply cannot balance damage and abilities that are fine in pve on targets with millions of HP that take 4-10 minutes to kill vs pvp where your targets have a tiny fraction of that health/armor/durability.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Is there anyone who doesn't feel like PVE and PVP need separate rulesets, aside from the developers? And not just for World of Warcraft, the same can be said for a number of games. How many times over the years did PVE get screwed over because something didn't work in PVP?
IMO while the actual pvp / balance can be questioned, the setup for it in GW2 was done right. Have 3 basic sections to things - PVE, Preset PVP, and freeform PVP.
The PVP you get into matches in in GW2 is balanced with set stats and no gear. That is your competitive PVP. But, you also want some freeform PVP as sort of a "sandbox" version, one you expect to not be balanced but that you can play with all the ridiculous things that PVE has against other players. Then your PVE which is balanced on its own.
This means you really only balance 2 things. The freeform PVP is just PVE and dealing with all the PVE decisions, but it lets you at least kind of mess around with some extreme things without any expectation of balance. That is kind of how GW2 handles WvW though they do try to balance that a little bit separately. But it is the basic idea of freeform PVP.
Blade and Soul came close in that it has 100% preset PVP in its arenas. Unfortunately, they made some part of your character growth matter (the skill build options) and you can only get those from PVE. And they only dropped in the highest end PVE dungeons, which you need to get fairly strong PVE gear for. Which pretty much means you can't play fair PVP without getting all the way through PVE. I heard they are allowing people to get those skills in PVP soon but it is too late for me.
Don't you have to unlock better guns and kits through playing as well? That can be somewhat of a barrier to entry. I haven't played CoD in a very long time, but that is kind of the case with Battlefield 4. Especially with the engineer stuff, the starter rpgs do basically nothing to vehicles but the later ones can 1 shot them almost. I wouldn't say FPSs are terribly balanced either, there is always that 1 gun that is just better.
Also, after gearing my DK yesterday, playing my warlock today is just an exercise in frustration. It is basically worse in every way. I was just mongoing down healers while undergeared on the DK by blowing dps cooldowns, now on the lock it's like ooooh my dots tick for less than your passive regen!
Can't speak for CoD so much, but BF unlocking re: balance since 4 has basically been that you had to tools to do your job well right off the bat or with just a little play and everything unlocked after that was for preference or specialization.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Yeah no, just because a game is equalized doesn't mean it needs to be an fps. That always comes up and its both ignorant and insulting.
Seriously just accept other people like something different and stop trying to rationalize it as bad just because you don't like it
Since it came up in trade chat today, swtor was actually a game that had really fun and relatively balanced pvp. They even made tanks actually DO something other than exist, and they had the resolve bar to prevent you from getting cc'd into oblivion. With how much the questing and story was central to the game, it is kind of amazing how well the pvp turned out. There were just really weird gearing issues, nothing to do at max level other than pvp at launch, and the fallout from the nothing to do helped cause the worst f2p model I've ever seen. Really sad they screwed it up, because it was good pvp, with jedi and bounty hunters! I would actually recommend playing through the leveling/campaign for free if someone hasn't.
Trying to get conquest gear on my warlock is driving me crazy...
Swtor did a lot of things well; they just didn't turn out content fast enough to keep people interested (I mean, you thought WoW went a long time between new raids.)
I still like their healing model a lot and wish WoW would rip it off
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I couldn't even imagine trying to coordinate the people who play wow to play huttball. But huttball was pretty awesome. I'd prefer it over quite a few of the current BGs.
Swtor did a lot of things well; they just didn't turn out content fast enough to keep people interested (I mean, you thought WoW went a long time between new raids.)
I still like their healing model a lot and wish WoW would rip it off
I think SWTOR made two main big mistakes, at least to me.
Put way too much money into the dialog that should have been put into more gameplay content. Especially with...
The way lightside/darkside and dialog systems worked at launch, you needed to either play alone or with people you absolutely knew would make the choices you wanted. So it turned into a single player game you were paying a monthly fee for.
I would probably pvp in WoW more, if it was so stun focused. Getting chain stunned until death just isn't that interesting.
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drunkenpandarenSlapping all the goblin hamIn the top laneRegistered Userregular
Also, I'm still boggled by people who PvP in WoW when there are much better PvP MMO games out there.
Much better I would disagree with. There's probably better, but not better enough to up and buy a whole new game.
But... Wildstar is freeeeee~
In other news. Shadowmoon Valley is so much more awesome then Frostfire Ridge. Now that I have an ally character leveling through WoD. Though, I kind of wish some of the neat places there unlocked into something cool, not so Black Temple would have been a bad ass Alliance hub.
They basically streamlined most of the dungeons to be done in about 10 minutes, if that. Maraudon was also chopped up into short bits which kind of takes away the exploration aspect, and the awe of seeing someone who actually knew where the heck they were going in the place. I kind of miss the long dungeons with tons of bosses, but it's hard to get people on board with a 5 man that could last an hour+. My favorite change to BFD is the addition of the noob rope at the jumping part, the superficial old god/tentacle skin that was added is ok though.
In other news. Shadowmoon Valley is so much more awesome then Frostfire Ridge. Now that I have an ally character leveling through WoD. Though, I kind of wish some of the neat places there unlocked into something cool, not so Black Temple would have been a bad ass Alliance hub.
I had the opposite opinion when I did alliance first then leveled a horde character. Frostfire was way cooler, especially the ganar video vs the naaru casting halo. I actually felt a little something in the horde one, where i was like "I should have just skipped the video" with the alliance one. There is pretty much no question that shadowmoon is much more streamlined and efficient though. In frostfire you cross the map a bunch of times doing things, but shadowmoon you just sweep south.
drunkenpandarenSlapping all the goblin hamIn the top laneRegistered Userregular
I like what they did with ST. Though I'm kind of sad they didn't do anything with the upper floor. That'd be a neat dungeon all on its own if messed with.
I guess I've been playing too much TOR, since I keep looking at the morality of these quests in WoW and some of them are just heinous.
This one dude in the plaguelands wants me to kill a bunch of trolls and then rip out their eyes as some sort of sick, vindictive, pseudo-righteous vendetta. I declined.
Then some guy in Booty Bay wanted me to go rough up some people that owed him money. And by "rough up", I mean "murder".
The completionist in me is at war with the desire to fashion a character that's more than just a hired thug.
RT800 on
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SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
I guess I've been playing too much TOR, since I keep looking at the morality of these quests in WoW and some of them are just heinous.
This one dude in the plaguelands wants me to kill a bunch of trolls and then rip out their eyes as some sort of sick, vindictive, pseudo-righteous vendetta. I declined.
Then some guy in Booty Bay wanted me to go rough up some people that owed him money. And by "rough up", I mean "murder".
The completionist in me is at war with the desire to fashion a character that's more than just a hired thug.
I played through some of the beginning Forsaken questline last year. It was the first time I'd done those quests, as I'd only played that area before pre-Cataclysm. They came off as a bunch of jerks to me. I mean, they always were kind of awful, but this was a little worse.
like 99% of the quests in the game are just "go murder a village and steal their shit". Especially undead stuff. But their stuff is always swept under the table when the warchief goes crazy or the legion invades. It would be a pretty epic ending if they ever decided to make the undead actually go off and do their own thing fracturing the horde, and most likely committing some terrible act against the alliance. I can't think of a good way to keep undead players as part of the horde after that, since I thought the 1/2 horde split was stupid with garrosh. It would be a crazy marketing event though to just burn everything down and announce wow2 or wc4. Never going to happen though.
Been leveling a mage through dungeons and messing around with arcane. that crap does a supid amount of damage at max stacks. Im pretty much still 1 shotting mobs at 38 if I crit.
I just came across a quest in the Badlands that has me helping an NPC kill Black Dragon whelps and steal their eggs for experimentation. It's basically saying "kill their children and kidnap their babies so we can run tests".
Then it's revealed that this character has actually been keeping a Black Dragon prisoner and has been forcing her to lay eggs in an attempt to "cleanse their corruption". The next phase in the quest is to literally beat the mother dragon into submission so that I can take her eggs from her.
I know the Black Dragonflight are supposed to be the bad guys but holy shit...
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Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
From a PvE standpoint, I could debate this with you, but I don't think either of us would get anything out of it. However, from a PvP standpoint, I understand the point you're trying to get across.
Pvp just happens to be what i like to do. Raiding got a little stale after a few expansions and i dont have the time to do scheduled events with guilds. I dont think lfr is compelling enough to spend my time on. So i pvp and make gold for enchants and to collect mounts and battle pets. Ill also tank or heal 5 mans every so often. There isnt another mmo that you can easily do all those things in, especially the pet battles.
I would also say it still boggles my mind people still look down on a part of the game that has been in since launch. The honor system took a little while for them to finish, but it was supposed to be in at launch. At this point its been 10+ years and is still very popular despite the devs' lack of attention until legion.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
Eventually, though, I realized I hated PVP. My first character is still on that PVP server (Eredar), but I transferred two of my other characters to a normal server and haven't really looked back.
My Backloggery
It's mysterious how other people like different things, I know.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
Whereas, my understanding is that other games such as GW2 (the example that is usually provided in similar discussions) are explained to me as being designed for PvP from the ground up. So if a game is supposedly designed around PvP, the play/gear/balance should presumably be better because there isn't any PvE element getting in the way. No? Which should then lead to more fun play, and not gnashing of teeth over someone killing everyone because an ability or class mechanic was added that was designed for raiding.
Yes, I'm likely wrong on multiple points, and you guys are probably going to spend 7 posts pointing that out to me. I haven't done any PvP since probably Cata. So, there, I laid out all my assumptions and presumptions.
Again though, that is all opinion. Which is fine, but don't go trying to act like something is wrong with people for liking it. Competitive gaming as a whole has always functioned well balanced or not. Look at the popularity MvC2 had and was likely one of the most broken games of all time.
That train runs both ways though, quite a few classes have received nerfs in pvp due to something being crazy in pve. Warlocks in particular have been on the receiving end of both actually from expansion to expansion. Trying to make arenas an esport is probably what caused the most problems with the dual nature of the game. When the game was just battlegrounds imbalances were still a thing, but people didn't have an equivalent of saying "i cant get to 2k+ rating because my class is bad", so they just had to deal with it.
Also this, everyone in GW2 goes with zerkers or soldier stats for pvp which are pretty much glass cannon itemization. GW2 is basically just whoever crits harder faster and on the right person. There are some exceptions, but it just isn't as fun for me.
@Mugsley, I can't say your assumptions are terribly wrong or off. PvP has always been an afterthought to the devs. Any sort of pvp zone theyve tried have been remarkably out of touch with what players want. With Legion it will be 2 expansions in a row without a new BG, and all theyve done is added an emerald dream themed arena. AV and IoC are still in their current terrible iterations, SotA still exists, and I don't think there have been pvp only armor models since vanilla (may be wrong on this). GW2 was also praised for its large scale pvp(WvW), but its small scale BG style pvp is just a glass cannon shitshow. There are some fun mechanics to mess around with I just do not enjoy it. Also, GW2 has actually been adding pve content for a while now, I'm not sure if there have been balance changes in response to it, but the possibility is there. There were also 80 levels of pve to do. Just to share an amusing example of how poorly balanced the game was at launch though, there was an ability thieves had where they basically could use an ability to speed up attack animations and GCD for like 3s, but in that 3s could essentially shadowstep+ambush someone 6-7 times from stealth while popping a couple damage boosts. By the time the game registered it was even happening the person being attacked would probably be dead. It was eventually fixed, but that isn't something that should have snuck in if it was truly built for pvp.
I'm excited for the legion pvp changes, I just hope Blizzard hasn't turned too many people away by the time it gets here for it to be good but no one plays it. I do kind of think some of the pvp only spells should be in the main talent tree and not the pvp talent tree though. Ancient Mistweaver Arts is one that seems like it should be baseline and not tied to pvp for example. Some classes might get a little screwed in pve due to how they are doing the pvp talents.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
IMO while the actual pvp / balance can be questioned, the setup for it in GW2 was done right. Have 3 basic sections to things - PVE, Preset PVP, and freeform PVP.
The PVP you get into matches in in GW2 is balanced with set stats and no gear. That is your competitive PVP. But, you also want some freeform PVP as sort of a "sandbox" version, one you expect to not be balanced but that you can play with all the ridiculous things that PVE has against other players. Then your PVE which is balanced on its own.
This means you really only balance 2 things. The freeform PVP is just PVE and dealing with all the PVE decisions, but it lets you at least kind of mess around with some extreme things without any expectation of balance. That is kind of how GW2 handles WvW though they do try to balance that a little bit separately. But it is the basic idea of freeform PVP.
Blade and Soul came close in that it has 100% preset PVP in its arenas. Unfortunately, they made some part of your character growth matter (the skill build options) and you can only get those from PVE. And they only dropped in the highest end PVE dungeons, which you need to get fairly strong PVE gear for. Which pretty much means you can't play fair PVP without getting all the way through PVE. I heard they are allowing people to get those skills in PVP soon but it is too late for me.
Also, after gearing my DK yesterday, playing my warlock today is just an exercise in frustration. It is basically worse in every way. I was just mongoing down healers while undergeared on the DK by blowing dps cooldowns, now on the lock it's like ooooh my dots tick for less than your passive regen!
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
Seriously just accept other people like something different and stop trying to rationalize it as bad just because you don't like it
Trying to get conquest gear on my warlock is driving me crazy...
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
So if I want to play huttball, better hope I get lucky. Or if I hate the 3v3 mode? Too bad.
I still like their healing model a lot and wish WoW would rip it off
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
I think SWTOR made two main big mistakes, at least to me.
Put way too much money into the dialog that should have been put into more gameplay content. Especially with...
The way lightside/darkside and dialog systems worked at launch, you needed to either play alone or with people you absolutely knew would make the choices you wanted. So it turned into a single player game you were paying a monthly fee for.
I would probably pvp in WoW more, if it was so stun focused. Getting chain stunned until death just isn't that interesting.
But... Wildstar is freeeeee~
In other news. Shadowmoon Valley is so much more awesome then Frostfire Ridge. Now that I have an ally character leveling through WoD. Though, I kind of wish some of the neat places there unlocked into something cool, not so Black Temple would have been a bad ass Alliance hub.
Steam: pandas_gota_gun
I like some of the changes they made to the old school dungeons. Blackfathom Deeps is better than ever.
But what the hell have they done to Scholomance! and the Scarlet Monastery!?
I had the opposite opinion when I did alliance first then leveled a horde character. Frostfire was way cooler, especially the ganar video vs the naaru casting halo. I actually felt a little something in the horde one, where i was like "I should have just skipped the video" with the alliance one. There is pretty much no question that shadowmoon is much more streamlined and efficient though. In frostfire you cross the map a bunch of times doing things, but shadowmoon you just sweep south.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
Wait until you see Sunken Temple.
My Backloggery
Steam: pandas_gota_gun
This one dude in the plaguelands wants me to kill a bunch of trolls and then rip out their eyes as some sort of sick, vindictive, pseudo-righteous vendetta. I declined.
Then some guy in Booty Bay wanted me to go rough up some people that owed him money. And by "rough up", I mean "murder".
The completionist in me is at war with the desire to fashion a character that's more than just a hired thug.
I played through some of the beginning Forsaken questline last year. It was the first time I'd done those quests, as I'd only played that area before pre-Cataclysm. They came off as a bunch of jerks to me. I mean, they always were kind of awful, but this was a little worse.
My Backloggery
It's just a matter of time before Sylvanus "goes crazy" and ends up being a raid boss on farm status.
1) please adventurer, find my lost wife!
"Deeply sorry Mr. Krik, but your wife was killed by thornboar things"
2) rawr, kill some for me in return, and bring me their tusks.
"Okay, we got'em, your wife has been avenged. Here's 10 tusks or whatever.
3) No that's not enough! Bring me... 100 tusks :dr.evil:
*huff* *huff* okay you crazy fucker, here's your tusks, are you happy now?
4) I've never been happy.
Then in cataclysm, apparently years later, he's still in the southern barrens slaughtering these pigbeast things
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
But I draw the line when they start asking me to mutilate corpses and mail the pieces to their family to "send a message".
Like, WTF dude? When did "Hero" become synonymous with "War Criminal"?
at least they finally give him a sense of closure.
(and in Warlords you get the knife twist of seeing him meet his wife as a kid).
Been leveling a mage through dungeons and messing around with arcane. that crap does a supid amount of damage at max stacks. Im pretty much still 1 shotting mobs at 38 if I crit.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
When the recruitment method became, dig them out of the ground and re-animate them against their will.
Then it's revealed that this character has actually been keeping a Black Dragon prisoner and has been forcing her to lay eggs in an attempt to "cleanse their corruption". The next phase in the quest is to literally beat the mother dragon into submission so that I can take her eggs from her.
I know the Black Dragonflight are supposed to be the bad guys but holy shit...