SkwigelfPassed out in a cloud of farts and cigarette smoke.Registered Userregular
I don't see why they can't do more stuff like the Warlock Green Fire quest.
Until you severely out-geared it to the point where you could basically ignore mechanics, it was a very difficult encounter that required you to use a bunch of your abilities in ways you didn't usually use them over the course of leveling or even raiding(I seriously commend any people that did it at the required item level without having half a dozen macros specifically made for this encounter).
I'm generally terrible at micromanagement and that fight is like 99% micromanagement. So even though I was about 30 or 40 iLvls above the required level I had a hard time with it. I wiped a hundred times, giving up in frustration and disappointment. On the very last day before the shot at the title went away I decided to give it one last try and even said to myself "I'm not gonna do it.". I had resigned myself to failure.
On my first attempt I nailed everything perfectly. Green Fire and the Black Harvest title were mine.
For the next hour or so my heart was racing and my hands were shaking. WoW hasn't given me an exhilarating sense of accomplishment like that since the time I saved my raid from a wipe on Nightbane with my Pally Tank after our Priests/Shamans missed a fear ward(Raid leader in vent: "Wipe it." Me: *activates then turns off pally bubble and regains aggro* "Nope. Heal me.". It was the first time I felt like a real tank. Sadly, PUGs killed my love of tanking. Now I just solo level tanks and run group content as DPS, if I have to run group content at all).
Impossible to wipe?! Im pretty sure there were more wipes in ubrs than there were in molten core. The leeroy jenkins video was a parody on how batshit crazy the whelp room was with pugs. I was in groups that literally disbanded because they couldn't kill drakkisath. Some couldnt even deal with the trash before rend because no one would interrupt the summoners. Loot was never just show up and get stuff. People fought tooth and nail for their set pieces like shadowcraft, dreadmist, etc. Heaven forbid one of the dal rends swords dropped, the run could just implode on itself because the 3 hunters, 3 rogues, the weird paladin, and misinformed rogue all wanted it and got butthurt when it didn't go to them. There was no such thing as welfare blues because you had to run those dungeons multiple times for a chance to roll against other people.
Those blues were also not terrible pieces of gear. The difference between blues and purples was not as great as it is now. Just looking at agility since other stats will scale similarly.
Shadowcraft chest had 26 agi
Nightslayer had 10 str, 29 agi (basically 34 agi with how str gave attack power, but not as much crit)
On live normal dungeon gear chest from ubrs is 145 agi
while normal highmaul (because there was no lfr in vanilla) is 211 agi
The percentage gain in stats between the starter max level content to the first raid is about 30% in vanilla and 45% on live.
If you look at the jump from starter content to the final raid,
Rogue T3: 40 agi (80ap on actual armor)
HFC normal chest: 306 agi
Calculating those changes you get 53% increase for vanilla, and on live about 110%. If you add in heroic, mythic, and valor upgrades the number jumps even higher. Almost the entirety of vanillas degree of item creep was passed in just the first raid of WoD. It actually did if you account for the higher difficulties.
The smaller jumps in gear allowed far more people to play together in vanilla because you didn't have to hit some mystical ilvl benchmark, and everyone clawed their way for every piece they earned. I would say a more inclusive community is much better than a player needing their fix of getting a 10+ ilvl jump in gear. There are actually numbers between 0 and 5 that could be used for item levels but for whatever reason blizzard doesn't feel the need to utilize. Occasionally there will be a 6 for warforged gear, woo!!!!
SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
Remember when Stratholme could be 40-manned and groups would still wipe in there? I think you could do that with all 5-man dungeons, actually. I remember seeing screenshots of 40 level 1 gnomes attempting to raid Deadmines. Good stuff.
I mean, the order hall questlines are basically an attempt to do more content like the warlock green fire quest, the only question is whether it will be as equivalently difficult
They should put in epic end of content level questchain as part of the order hall stuff though. Like, single-player content that is Mythic raid quality difficulty. You don't need to do it to complete the 'story' of a given expansion as it were (as you can do that with something as easy as LFR), but an extra little epic-level quality quest should be introduced.
Or hell, make the entire order hall questchain repeatable, but with different difficulty levels.
The green fire quest wasnt even hard, it just forced you to use abilities you probably didnt even have on your bar, and spec destro for the last part.
Nothing in WoW is hard
Oh wait right I forgot it's dumb to circlejerk about difficulty about things people already said on this page they found hard
It was only hard insofar as the questline had you use abilities that werent in regular use. Eye of kilrogg is hardly ever used, succubi are hardly used because their cc drs with fear and she does less damage than other pets despite needing melee range. Enslave demon is never used because it still has the finicky randomly breaks thing on top of most mobs being immune or not demons. All together the last scenario is basically just playing a completely different class that you learn on the fly. Its no harder than picking up any other class you dont know the abilities of and told to do some semi optimal dps while controlling a pet and managing cc.
I don't give a shit about hard, I've got Dark Souls if I want hard. I just want fun and engaging. Green fire quest was that.
To be engaging, something either has to have difficult gameplay that requires a bit of thinking to overcome, or it has to have an interesting story to get involved in.
I don't give a shit about hard, I've got Dark Souls if I want hard. I just want fun and engaging. Green fire quest was that.
To be engaging, something either has to have difficult gameplay that requires a bit of thinking to overcome, or it has to have an interesting story to get involved in.
Not to be snarky-- okay, maybe a wee bit snarky-- but BORDERLANDS says otherwise. Sometimes you can get by with tone, atmosphere, and a bit of the old ultra-violence.
if you're concerned about the direction of the thread you're welcome to get the attention of a moderator to get it on what you feel should be on track instead of passive-aggressively whining about it
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
There was nothing passive about it.
Want direct? Stop talking like a complete goose about things. This place has been bad enough, but honestly this forum tends to be MUCH better than this.
But you know, you can be a tough guy and act like I am not important enough to suggest you not bring it down with your attitude while telling me not to do so in a way that is not far off from how you are handling things.
Want direct? Stop talking like a complete goose about things. This place has been bad enough, but honestly this forum tends to be MUCH better than this.
But you know, you can be a tough guy and act like I am not important enough to suggest you not bring it down with your attitude while telling me not to do so in a way that is not far off from how you are handling things.
You seem to think I had a problem with you, when I had a problem with someone dismissing and scoffing at someone else on this page stating that green fire was hard.
The green fire quest wasnt even hard, it just forced you to use abilities you probably didnt even have on your bar, and spec destro for the last part.
to circlejerk
Alright yeah, I think this thread is going downhill so fast it might be better to talk about this game on reddit.
Guess how many reports Kai_San has made about this thread which he feels is going downhill so fast that such a rapid decline must be publicly proclaimed? Hint: it's less than one.
The rest of you also need to be less catty assholes when posting. We can always give the thread a break until Legion.
I apologize if it felt like it was a personal attack against you Gnome, I just didn't think it was hard per se, just unorthodox use of the class at the time. It is possible that it was easier for me because many of the things in the fight were things I had to do often in vanilla when I played my warlock a lot. I understand that there is a fairly specific way to do the fight that can be challenging to execute without mistakes, especially the lower the gear it was done in. We both have different opinions on the quest, just like everyone falls on different sides of the vanilla WoW debate. Clearly these are topics people are very passionate about one way or the other and no discussion is probably going to sway anyone to the other side.
So I put forth talking about what class(es) people are currently looking forward to the most in Legion for whatever reason. I think death knights look to have one of the coolest order hall quests, in addition to being able to summon a sludge belcher to hook people. Also the unholy artifact skins look AMAZING. Affliction locks are also tickling my fancy because locks in general are supposed to go back to basics as a tough punching bag instead of a mage wannabe, but also aff is getting siphon life back!!!!!!!
personally i didn't feel the first draft of the green fire encounter was too bad, but then a friend had me do it on their character after they nerfed Demonic Gateway and that was almost an entirely different fight, now that you had aggro the entire time
Hard is subjective. Challenging is subjective. I've done Mythic raiding and sometimes couldn't comprehend how people could do such high DPS but still not understand that Fire = Bad while I was doing less DPS but remained alive when they were dead.
Green fire quest though, that was engaging. No matter your ilevel when it was current, you couldn't just sit and turret. You had to employ a wide variety of abilities and strategies, deciding when and where to pop cooldowns to ensure you could not only defeat a threat but survive the next one. You learned the timing through practice, progressing further and further until that moment the boss dropped. There was no one to blame but yourself when things went wrong, you just picked yourself up and charged back into the fray. And that feeling when everything went right and that boss perished while you were left standing, now wielding a clear identifying mark of your prowess? That was a sense of accomplishment I hadn't felt in a long time. That hadn't been my luck, my teammates, or my gear. It had all been my skill, pure and simple, and it made me feel like a good player when I had been having doubts.
I still remember doing the Green Fire questline on my lock.
My lock isn't my main (he's pretty much a tertiary level alt), and he was maybe lfr geared, but I'll be damned if for the first time in years in this game I was filled with nervous energy and my heart was still thumping when the final guy finally went down. I think the last time I felt that way was the first time my guild beat Algalon at the proper level.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Challenging is not subjective.
Take the Green Fire quest.
Now give it the Warlords of Draenor Raid Finder treatment. Everything now does 10% of the damage and has 10% of the HP. Sure, there are lots of cool and complicated mechanics, but if none of them matter, they may as well not exist.
That's my point. In order to be interesting, the mechanics of whatever you're talking about have to be meaningful, which means they have to be challenging. If they aren't challenging, then they don't matter, so they can't be engaging no matter how cool they look on the surface.
They should implement more things like the green fire quest. Personal instanced content that's tailored to what you like to do class wise. I understand that a lot of that work is 'going to waste' because only the people of a specific class/quest are going to see it, but I think it's worth it. They can also sync your ilevel to it (up or down), so that it's equally challenging for everyone and you can't accidentally make it irrelevant by being an active raider or whatever, nor can you not be geared enough for it.
at the end of the day what we're all in basic agreement is an insufficient amount of varied complex or challenging content for multiple types of players
Which I'm glad they're at least trying to get PvP working. Sometimes you just feel like fightin' dudes and busting Horde skulls. Hopefully they at least stick with it for the long haul and don't abandon it.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
The problem is making class-based content that is challenging and balanced for 12 classes is a lot of work and once you beat it you're done. It's also an MMO and they'd rather focus on multiplayer content.
Its pretty much too late now but i would love if instead of increasing the level cap, there was something happening in old zones, so no new areas are needed. Then they have some epic class questlines. Have some parts need groups, some collect materials like herbs/ore, puzzles to solve with your class, etc. Make the stuff compelling enough that other people want to help with a given quest. It would also help people get backinto the world instead of 4 expansions worth of dead zones. Basically make class quest the expansion and they can gradually roll out the next pieces in the chain. They could even make it some quest to gather artifacts to awaken azeroths titan. It could even be somewhat like the aq event where people doing the class quests acquire X item and there is some kind of server progression for each class. Maybe help with the server community again.
It could work, just not in their current cycle of discover random landmass with bad guys on it again and again.
We wanted to let you know that we’ve been closely following the Nostalrius discussion and we appreciate your constructive thoughts and suggestions.
Our silence on this subject definitely doesn’t reflect our level of engagement and passion around this topic. We hear you. Many of us across Blizzard and the WoW Dev team have been passionate players ever since classic WoW. In fact, I personally work at Blizzard because of my love for classic WoW.
We have been discussing classic servers for years - it’s a topic every BlizzCon - and especially over the past few weeks. From active internal team discussions to after-hours meetings with leadership, this subject has been highly debated. Some of our current thoughts:
Why not just let Nostalrius continue the way it was? The honest answer is, failure to protect against intellectual property infringement would damage Blizzard’s rights. This applies to anything that uses WoW’s IP, including unofficial servers. And while we’ve looked into the possibility – there is not a clear legal path to protect Blizzard’s IP and grant an operating license to a pirate server.
We explored options for developing classic servers and none could be executed without great difficulty. If we could push a button and all of this would be created, we would. However, there are tremendous operational challenges to integrating classic servers, not to mention the ongoing support of multiple live versions for every aspect of WoW.
So what can we do to capture that nostalgia of when WoW first launched? Over the years we have talked about a “pristine realm”. In essence that would turn off all leveling acceleration including character transfers, heirloom gear, character boosts, Recruit-A-Friend bonuses, WoW Token, and access to cross realm zones, as well as group finder. We aren’t sure whether this version of a clean slate is something that would appeal to the community and it’s still an open topic of discussion.
One other note - we’ve recently been in contact with some of the folks who operated Nostalrius. They obviously care deeply about the game, and we look forward to more conversations with them in the coming weeks.
You, the Blizzard community, are the most dedicated, passionate players out there. We thank you for your constructive thoughts and suggestions. We are listening.
TBH I would love to try out a "pristine" server where all the convenience and catch up mechanics are disabled. It would be a fun experiment and it seems to be something they could make without too much effort.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I like the idea of a pristine realm. But what do you classify as levelling acceleration?
Posts
Until you severely out-geared it to the point where you could basically ignore mechanics, it was a very difficult encounter that required you to use a bunch of your abilities in ways you didn't usually use them over the course of leveling or even raiding(I seriously commend any people that did it at the required item level without having half a dozen macros specifically made for this encounter).
I'm generally terrible at micromanagement and that fight is like 99% micromanagement. So even though I was about 30 or 40 iLvls above the required level I had a hard time with it. I wiped a hundred times, giving up in frustration and disappointment. On the very last day before the shot at the title went away I decided to give it one last try and even said to myself "I'm not gonna do it.". I had resigned myself to failure.
On my first attempt I nailed everything perfectly. Green Fire and the Black Harvest title were mine.
For the next hour or so my heart was racing and my hands were shaking. WoW hasn't given me an exhilarating sense of accomplishment like that since the time I saved my raid from a wipe on Nightbane with my Pally Tank after our Priests/Shamans missed a fear ward(Raid leader in vent: "Wipe it." Me: *activates then turns off pally bubble and regains aggro* "Nope. Heal me.". It was the first time I felt like a real tank. Sadly, PUGs killed my love of tanking. Now I just solo level tanks and run group content as DPS, if I have to run group content at all).
Those blues were also not terrible pieces of gear. The difference between blues and purples was not as great as it is now. Just looking at agility since other stats will scale similarly.
Shadowcraft chest had 26 agi
Nightslayer had 10 str, 29 agi (basically 34 agi with how str gave attack power, but not as much crit)
On live normal dungeon gear chest from ubrs is 145 agi
while normal highmaul (because there was no lfr in vanilla) is 211 agi
The percentage gain in stats between the starter max level content to the first raid is about 30% in vanilla and 45% on live.
If you look at the jump from starter content to the final raid,
Rogue T3: 40 agi (80ap on actual armor)
HFC normal chest: 306 agi
Calculating those changes you get 53% increase for vanilla, and on live about 110%. If you add in heroic, mythic, and valor upgrades the number jumps even higher. Almost the entirety of vanillas degree of item creep was passed in just the first raid of WoD. It actually did if you account for the higher difficulties.
The smaller jumps in gear allowed far more people to play together in vanilla because you didn't have to hit some mystical ilvl benchmark, and everyone clawed their way for every piece they earned. I would say a more inclusive community is much better than a player needing their fix of getting a 10+ ilvl jump in gear. There are actually numbers between 0 and 5 that could be used for item levels but for whatever reason blizzard doesn't feel the need to utilize. Occasionally there will be a 6 for warforged gear, woo!!!!
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
My Backloggery
/punt
They should put in epic end of content level questchain as part of the order hall stuff though. Like, single-player content that is Mythic raid quality difficulty. You don't need to do it to complete the 'story' of a given expansion as it were (as you can do that with something as easy as LFR), but an extra little epic-level quality quest should be introduced.
Or hell, make the entire order hall questchain repeatable, but with different difficulty levels.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
Nothing in WoW is hard
Oh wait right I forgot it's dumb to circlejerk about difficulty about things people already said on this page they found hard
Isn't this topic a horse deader than the Scourge?
It was only hard insofar as the questline had you use abilities that werent in regular use. Eye of kilrogg is hardly ever used, succubi are hardly used because their cc drs with fear and she does less damage than other pets despite needing melee range. Enslave demon is never used because it still has the finicky randomly breaks thing on top of most mobs being immune or not demons. All together the last scenario is basically just playing a completely different class that you learn on the fly. Its no harder than picking up any other class you dont know the abilities of and told to do some semi optimal dps while controlling a pet and managing cc.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
No one is referring to the eye of kilrogg portion when they say green fire was hard.
And yes, the level of execution needed to finish green fire was hard. That's not even up for debate.
To be engaging, something either has to have difficult gameplay that requires a bit of thinking to overcome, or it has to have an interesting story to get involved in.
Not to be snarky-- okay, maybe a wee bit snarky-- but BORDERLANDS says otherwise. Sometimes you can get by with tone, atmosphere, and a bit of the old ultra-violence.
Alright yeah, I think this thread is going downhill so fast it might be better to talk about this game on reddit.
Want direct? Stop talking like a complete goose about things. This place has been bad enough, but honestly this forum tends to be MUCH better than this.
But you know, you can be a tough guy and act like I am not important enough to suggest you not bring it down with your attitude while telling me not to do so in a way that is not far off from how you are handling things.
Actually...
Well, I mean you can turn it off...
You seem to think I had a problem with you, when I had a problem with someone dismissing and scoffing at someone else on this page stating that green fire was hard.
You may be being a bit reactionary here.
The rest of you also need to be less catty assholes when posting. We can always give the thread a break until Legion.
Something something Nisha's Showdowns?
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
So I put forth talking about what class(es) people are currently looking forward to the most in Legion for whatever reason. I think death knights look to have one of the coolest order hall quests, in addition to being able to summon a sludge belcher to hook people. Also the unholy artifact skins look AMAZING. Affliction locks are also tickling my fancy because locks in general are supposed to go back to basics as a tough punching bag instead of a mage wannabe, but also aff is getting siphon life back!!!!!!!
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
Green fire quest though, that was engaging. No matter your ilevel when it was current, you couldn't just sit and turret. You had to employ a wide variety of abilities and strategies, deciding when and where to pop cooldowns to ensure you could not only defeat a threat but survive the next one. You learned the timing through practice, progressing further and further until that moment the boss dropped. There was no one to blame but yourself when things went wrong, you just picked yourself up and charged back into the fray. And that feeling when everything went right and that boss perished while you were left standing, now wielding a clear identifying mark of your prowess? That was a sense of accomplishment I hadn't felt in a long time. That hadn't been my luck, my teammates, or my gear. It had all been my skill, pure and simple, and it made me feel like a good player when I had been having doubts.
My lock isn't my main (he's pretty much a tertiary level alt), and he was maybe lfr geared, but I'll be damned if for the first time in years in this game I was filled with nervous energy and my heart was still thumping when the final guy finally went down. I think the last time I felt that way was the first time my guild beat Algalon at the proper level.
Take the Green Fire quest.
Now give it the Warlords of Draenor Raid Finder treatment. Everything now does 10% of the damage and has 10% of the HP. Sure, there are lots of cool and complicated mechanics, but if none of them matter, they may as well not exist.
That's my point. In order to be interesting, the mechanics of whatever you're talking about have to be meaningful, which means they have to be challenging. If they aren't challenging, then they don't matter, so they can't be engaging no matter how cool they look on the surface.
the raid game's fine but it's raid or bust
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
It could work, just not in their current cycle of discover random landmass with bad guys on it again and again.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595