ECM changes are interesting, I wonder how that effects sharing enemy locations? Right now one of the biggest things about ECM in pub games is the blocking of the red arrows..
Well the clans still have a significant edge because the proposed changes do absolutely nothing to rectify the disparity between clan and IS XL engines that allows clans to be both heavily armed and fast without sacrificing survivability.
I soundly believe that the XL engine problem should be addressed first and weapon balancing should be addressed second.
However the 40% reduction in clan laser max ranges should make clan lasers less of the sniping gods that they are.
I don't think I agree with the following line:
Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range
If they're trying to push information warfare, then as a scout I will likely find myself in a situation where I must engage secondary targets while maintaining a lock on the primary target for my team. I shouldn't get a damage reduction for that. The firepower of the weapon should be completely unaffected by the whether or not I have a mech's paper doll selected.
The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked.
What purpose does this serve? If we're direct firing, then we have visual confirmation of hits. If we're indirect firing with LRMs, then we have the mech target-locked. All this seems to accomplish is to make it harder to tell if your artillery strike connected with anything.
The ECM changes are interesting:
ECM
ECM radius has been decreased to 90m (down from 180m).
ECM no longer prevents lock-on for 'Mechs within the radius. It only delays the amount of time it takes to achieve lock-on by 3 seconds.
The target-lock delay provided from ECM can still be overridden by TAG, NARC, BAP, PPC's, and ECM suites set to 'Counter' mode.
ECM has been a jesus box for far too long. It deserves a hearty nerf such as this. However I am concerned about NARC beacons within the umbrella. IMO, NARC beacons should be a technology countered by ECM, not the other way around. NARC's ability to disengage an ECM suite on a direct hit to the ECM mech never sat right with me, but I accepted that scenario simply due to how ridiculously crazy OP ecm was.
The sensor range changes are interesting. It should make it harder for ultra-high alpha assaults to pick out targets at range and peg them from halfway across the map.
There is one pretty big issue I have with that laser range decrease: it brings the range of Clan ER lasers (bearing in mind what the "ER" part of that stands for) down to being shorter than the standard IS lasers (and, in some cases, by as much as nearly 60m).
EDIT - honestly, instead of nerfing one faction's weapons, PGI should just bite the bullet and advance the timeline to a sufficient point to have Clan XL-equivalent IS XL engines, IS ER lasers equivalent in range and/or damage to Clan versions, and maybe even IS rotary ACs (that behave similarly to Clan Ultras).
Erlkönig on
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range
If they're trying to push information warfare, then as a scout I will likely find myself in a situation where I must engage secondary targets while maintaining a lock on the primary target for my team. I shouldn't get a damage reduction for that. The firepower of the weapon should be completely unaffected by the whether or not I have a mech's paper doll selected.
Actually, this is more of a nerf to clan lasers, IS lasers should be okay:
Math(this is just to show some weapon ranges, not to compare damage etc., Target lock range is the range after which you need a target lock to do full damage.): Inner sphere Lasers:
IS-LL optimum 450, max 900, target lock range 540
IS-ERLL optimum 675, max 1350, target lock range 810
IS-ML optimum 270, max 540, target lock range 324
IS-MPL optimum 220, max 440, target lock range 264
IS-LPL optimum 365, max 730, target lock range 438
IS-SL optimum 135, max 270, target lock range 162
IS-SPL optimum 110, max 220, target lock range 132
Clan Lasers(notice the nerf is to the MAX range, not the optimum range)
C-ERLL optimum 740, max 888, target lock range 532.8
C-ERML optimum 405, max 486, target lock range 291.6
C-MPL optimum 330, max 396, target lock range 237.6
C-LPL optimum 600, max 720, target lock range 432
C-ERSL optimum 200, max 240, target lock range 144
C-SPL optimum 165, max 198, target lock range 118.8
Notice that clan mechs need to have a target lock to do their full damage in their optimum range, while IS mechs do not. IS lasers ranges are still shorter, but the nerf to lasers is an interesting way to come to a balance to the two techs. Locks for clan mechs are much more important it seems. It's actually somewhat elegant, and not as hamfisted as PGI usually does.
Also, for This is the quickdraw build I was piloting tonight: QKD-5K. It really seems to work nicely.
it seems interesting, I'll be curious to see what kind of response the PTS gets.
I hope all the weapon quirks don't totally go away though; there are a lot of mechs that are fun to drive on the basis of those alone
And I'm really hoping that C-ER lasers (most notably the large lasers) don't get nerfed to be on par with IS standard lasers. If that makes it to the live servers, I guess I'm going to be canceling another mech pack preorder...
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
I just read a post saying that the clan mechs are almost never used in CW and this makes them so much weaker. Also equating timberwolves to summoners , I do not even know where to begin with this.
Holy shmow there's so much in those notes that makes me happy.
ECM - How has it not been nerfed like this already!? Having it be useful for scouting (3 second acquisition buff), through (wait for it) use of skill! Sneaking around cover, poking out for a few seconds, getting scouting data for your team. I wonder if they could now make it available for all mechs (perhaps all light mechs and some mediums?) rather than the chosen few?
Heat sinks - The most interesting thing for me actually was the larger (percentage wise) buff to single heat sinks. I've been hoping for ages that they actually make single heat sinks viable for certain mechs, rather than DHS simply being a 1.5 million mech tax.
Clan lasers - Hahahaha, suck it tube babies.
Sensor range - OH GOD YES HHHNNNGGHHHH. This is again something I've been wanting for ages and will precipitate proper role warfare. Something that PGI has claimed they have, but simply don't!
These changes would definitely bring me back into the stompy mech fold. I really hope they keep them.
The heatsink changes are going to have a huge impact on the viability of the clan lasers, less of a heat pool to means that the will not be able to alpha spew as often, where IS might get another in since the pool is larger. Going to be interesting...
That and all the wailing and bashing of clanner teeth!
+1
NipsHe/HimLuxuriating in existential crisis.Registered Userregular
EDIT - honestly, instead of nerfing one faction's weapons, PGI should just bite the bullet and advance the timeline to a sufficient point to have Clan XL-equivalent IS XL engines, IS ER lasers equivalent in range and/or damage to Clan versions, and maybe even IS rotary ACs (that behave similarly to Clan Ultras).
Man... those changes are looking good. They still need to make SHS viable in some way. That small change isn't enough.
The range changes for clan lasers is a little ham fisted. Why not just reduce the max range and not make it dependant on locks? It's not very intuitive and will be hard on new players.
0
NipsHe/HimLuxuriating in existential crisis.Registered Userregular
Ok, just read through all the PTS stuff. I like it, it looks like PGI is actually trying to narrow down on some things, and get a feel for how some specific changes will impact Live environment balance.
That said, I'm worried that they'll get good data. As we've seen in the past, the MWO population is small, so they sample data they're going to get might be constrained.
I honestly feel like they should incentive playing on the PTS more, maybe by offering some nominal C-Bill/MC amount for a minimum number of matches, or a freebie chassis. Something to drive people to the PTS.
Ok, just read through all the PTS stuff. I like it, it looks like PGI is actually trying to narrow down on some things, and get a feel for how some specific changes will impact Live environment balance.
That said, I'm worried that they'll get good data. As we've seen in the past, the MWO population is small, so they sample data they're going to get might be constrained.
I honestly feel like they should incentive playing on the PTS more, maybe by offering some nominal C-Bill/MC amount for a minimum number of matches, or a freebie chassis. Something to drive people to the PTS.
Well, they're not gonna do it the same time as a double xp weekend this time, so they should have way more participants than last time.
I hope they make the clan mechs cheaper cause thats a lot of nerfage.
I wouldn't expect the PTS nerfs to carry over into live. It's set up that way to test a specific set of constraints. They're trying to suss something out.
As a professional test engineer, that's not how I'd design the experiment, but it's one way to do it.
If I could mount clan tech, I would literally replace every single piece of IS equipment on my mechs with clan tech.
Even with these nerfs, clan mech cbill costs shouldn't be lowered. They're already at bargain prices. The IS mechs look cheaper, but then you need to spend a fortune on DHS, endosteel, and the proper engine.
I can get behind buffed cbill gains though. Paulconomy has gone on long enough.
General_Armchair on
3DS Friend Code:
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
+3
NipsHe/HimLuxuriating in existential crisis.Registered Userregular
I still dont know why they just dont allow IS mechs to mount Clan tech.
Hell it works in the actual table top game.
Yes...once the invasion has gone on long enough, and the armies and science academies of the IS have had time to analyze the salvage they'd recovered. But this doesn't happen in earnest until after the Battle of Luthien and the Tukayyid in 3052. It certainly doesn't happen overnight; OmniPod-compatible IS OmniMechs don't start hitting the battlefields until the mid 3050's. Alternately, you could try and jury-rig an Clan OmniPod-based weapon to a standard IS chassis, but that opens you up to a whole host of problems. Like using a Mac mouse on a PC; you might be able to get it to work, but it won't be fun to use.
Instead, we're stuck in a perpetual ground-hog day of somewhere in the 3049-3051 timeframe. Sucks to be us.
And for anyone that's curious, like me, here's all the post-Invasion IS OmniMechs with their production years:
Templar - 3062
Sunder - 3056
Strider - 3057
Raptor - 3052
Perseus - 3058
Owens - 3056
Men Shen - 3060
Hauptmann - 3060
Firestarter - 3056
Blackjack - 3057
Black Hawk KU - 3055
Avatar - 3056
Arctic Fox - 3059
I still dont know why they just dont allow IS mechs to mount Clan tech.
Hell it works in the actual table top game.
Yes...once the invasion has gone on long enough, and the armies and science academies of the IS have had time to analyze the salvage they'd recovered. But this doesn't happen in earnest until after the Battle of Luthien and the Tukayyid in 3052. It certainly doesn't happen overnight; OmniPod-compatible IS OmniMechs don't start hitting the battlefields until the mid 3050's. Alternately, you could try and jury-rig an Clan OmniPod-based weapon to a standard IS chassis, but that opens you up to a whole host of problems. Like using a Mac mouse on a PC; you might be able to get it to work, but it won't be fun to use.
Instead, we're stuck in a perpetual ground-hog day of somewhere in the 3049-3051 timeframe. Sucks to be us.
And for anyone that's curious, like me, here's all the post-Invasion IS OmniMechs with their production years:
Templar - 3062
Sunder - 3056
Strider - 3057
Raptor - 3052
Perseus - 3058
Owens - 3056
Men Shen - 3060
Hauptmann - 3060
Firestarter - 3056
Blackjack - 3057
Black Hawk KU - 3055
Avatar - 3056
Arctic Fox - 3059
I loves me an Owens. And a bunch of the others.
We're currently in 3052 judging from the Cicada 3F injection.
Still seems like a much simpler solution that nerfing the clan tech into the dirt.
Simpler, sure. But wouldn't it just make IS gear into another "fun tax" like single heat sinks? It doesn't sound great.
On a related note -- I don't know if any amount of fiddling is going to establish viable roles for both single and double heat sinks. People have suggested letting one type of heat sink increase capacity and another increase dissipation, but I don't think that's going to open up any variety in builds or gameplay. I think it would be a mistake to have any more decisions along the axis of short range extended brawler vs. long range one-shot sniper, since you end up making it hard to do anything besides one or the other.
I think the easiest thing to do would be to break with BT rules and rework the system to let 'Mechs mount singles and doubles together. PGI gets to keep the progression they're going for, but it's no longer a miserable grind with a single gigantic improvement at the end.
Because PGI refuses to balance clans via numbers (Like dropping 10 clans vs 12 Sphere), and since PGI refuses to remove clan ability to airstrike/arty/etc.. There only option is to balance the weapons.
Clans being able to shoot you for a good 10 seconds before you can shoot them is bullshit and deserves being beat to death with a nerfhammer.
Also this is a PLAY TEST, NOTHING IN IT IS GOING INTO LIVE ITS JUST DATA HARVESTING.
All of which are reasons why I laugh at the cryhard clans.
edit
Orogogus there are mechs in table top that mount both single and double heatsinks, so its not unprecedented.
Still seems like a much simpler solution that nerfing the clan tech into the dirt.
Simpler, sure. But wouldn't it just make IS gear into another "fun tax" like single heat sinks? It doesn't sound great.
On a related note -- I don't know if any amount of fiddling is going to establish viable roles for both single and double heat sinks. People have suggested letting one type of heat sink increase capacity and another increase dissipation, but I don't think that's going to open up any variety in builds or gameplay. I think it would be a mistake to have any more decisions along the axis of short range extended brawler vs. long range one-shot sniper, since you end up making it hard to do anything besides one or the other.
I think the easiest thing to do would be to break with BT rules and rework the system to let 'Mechs mount singles and doubles together. PGI gets to keep the progression they're going for, but it's no longer a miserable grind with a single gigantic improvement at the end.
Not really. I mean, if they just add a variable to allow IS mechs access to Clan lasers, yeah, it would be. Which is why I'm thinking the best solution isn't to nerf Clan lasers into the ground, but advance the timeline to where IS lasers are equivalent to the Clan ones. Or, if they don't want to advance the timeline, just break from TT (like they haven't done that already) and buff IS lasers to where they're equivalent to Clan lasers.
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
Posts
Hah! That's awesome! The crab is a sneaky beast.
shoot people in the back.
avoid being shot
I suck at that second part
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
pretty sure @Nips @Konphujun Ryanhiro and Whatever dreads PA name is can refute this assumption definitively after tonight
Only because I was bringing down the team with my silly Trebuchet shenanigans!
I am the anchor that sinks all ships, including @Buttcleft's
... he said, daming with faint praise.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
http://mwomercs.com/news/2015/10/1370-mech-rebalance-pts-phase-2
Looks really promising.
Not with this in play:
Maximum Ranges for all Clan Lasers have been reduced by 40%.
Loving the ecm and sensor changes
Meh on the quirk removal and clan nerfs
Hating the laser damage nerf on unlocked targets
MWO: Adamski
I soundly believe that the XL engine problem should be addressed first and weapon balancing should be addressed second.
However the 40% reduction in clan laser max ranges should make clan lasers less of the sniping gods that they are.
I don't think I agree with the following line:
If they're trying to push information warfare, then as a scout I will likely find myself in a situation where I must engage secondary targets while maintaining a lock on the primary target for my team. I shouldn't get a damage reduction for that. The firepower of the weapon should be completely unaffected by the whether or not I have a mech's paper doll selected.
What purpose does this serve? If we're direct firing, then we have visual confirmation of hits. If we're indirect firing with LRMs, then we have the mech target-locked. All this seems to accomplish is to make it harder to tell if your artillery strike connected with anything.
The ECM changes are interesting:
ECM has been a jesus box for far too long. It deserves a hearty nerf such as this. However I am concerned about NARC beacons within the umbrella. IMO, NARC beacons should be a technology countered by ECM, not the other way around. NARC's ability to disengage an ECM suite on a direct hit to the ECM mech never sat right with me, but I accepted that scenario simply due to how ridiculously crazy OP ecm was.
The sensor range changes are interesting. It should make it harder for ultra-high alpha assaults to pick out targets at range and peg them from halfway across the map.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
EDIT - honestly, instead of nerfing one faction's weapons, PGI should just bite the bullet and advance the timeline to a sufficient point to have Clan XL-equivalent IS XL engines, IS ER lasers equivalent in range and/or damage to Clan versions, and maybe even IS rotary ACs (that behave similarly to Clan Ultras).
Actually, this is more of a nerf to clan lasers, IS lasers should be okay:
Math(this is just to show some weapon ranges, not to compare damage etc., Target lock range is the range after which you need a target lock to do full damage.):
Inner sphere Lasers:
IS-LL optimum 450, max 900, target lock range 540
IS-ERLL optimum 675, max 1350, target lock range 810
IS-ML optimum 270, max 540, target lock range 324
IS-MPL optimum 220, max 440, target lock range 264
IS-LPL optimum 365, max 730, target lock range 438
IS-SL optimum 135, max 270, target lock range 162
IS-SPL optimum 110, max 220, target lock range 132
Clan Lasers (notice the nerf is to the MAX range, not the optimum range)
C-ERLL optimum 740, max 888, target lock range 532.8
C-ERML optimum 405, max 486, target lock range 291.6
C-MPL optimum 330, max 396, target lock range 237.6
C-LPL optimum 600, max 720, target lock range 432
C-ERSL optimum 200, max 240, target lock range 144
C-SPL optimum 165, max 198, target lock range 118.8
Notice that clan mechs need to have a target lock to do their full damage in their optimum range, while IS mechs do not. IS lasers ranges are still shorter, but the nerf to lasers is an interesting way to come to a balance to the two techs. Locks for clan mechs are much more important it seems. It's actually somewhat elegant, and not as hamfisted as PGI usually does.
Also, for This is the quickdraw build I was piloting tonight: QKD-5K. It really seems to work nicely.
I hope all the weapon quirks don't totally go away though; there are a lot of mechs that are fun to drive on the basis of those alone
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
And I'm really hoping that C-ER lasers (most notably the large lasers) don't get nerfed to be on par with IS standard lasers. If that makes it to the live servers, I guess I'm going to be canceling another mech pack preorder...
ECM - How has it not been nerfed like this already!? Having it be useful for scouting (3 second acquisition buff), through (wait for it) use of skill! Sneaking around cover, poking out for a few seconds, getting scouting data for your team. I wonder if they could now make it available for all mechs (perhaps all light mechs and some mediums?) rather than the chosen few?
Heat sinks - The most interesting thing for me actually was the larger (percentage wise) buff to single heat sinks. I've been hoping for ages that they actually make single heat sinks viable for certain mechs, rather than DHS simply being a 1.5 million mech tax.
Clan lasers - Hahahaha, suck it tube babies.
Sensor range - OH GOD YES HHHNNNGGHHHH. This is again something I've been wanting for ages and will precipitate proper role warfare. Something that PGI has claimed they have, but simply don't!
These changes would definitely bring me back into the stompy mech fold. I really hope they keep them.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/pablocampy
That and all the wailing and bashing of clanner teeth!
Why stop with half measures? 3160 or bust, baby!
The range changes for clan lasers is a little ham fisted. Why not just reduce the max range and not make it dependant on locks? It's not very intuitive and will be hard on new players.
That said, I'm worried that they'll get good data. As we've seen in the past, the MWO population is small, so they sample data they're going to get might be constrained.
I honestly feel like they should incentive playing on the PTS more, maybe by offering some nominal C-Bill/MC amount for a minimum number of matches, or a freebie chassis. Something to drive people to the PTS.
Well, they're not gonna do it the same time as a double xp weekend this time, so they should have way more participants than last time.
I doubt most if it will go live. The range nerf in particular.
I wouldn't expect the PTS nerfs to carry over into live. It's set up that way to test a specific set of constraints. They're trying to suss something out.
As a professional test engineer, that's not how I'd design the experiment, but it's one way to do it.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/pablocampy
Hell it works in the actual table top game.
Even with these nerfs, clan mech cbill costs shouldn't be lowered. They're already at bargain prices. The IS mechs look cheaper, but then you need to spend a fortune on DHS, endosteel, and the proper engine.
I can get behind buffed cbill gains though. Paulconomy has gone on long enough.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
Yes...once the invasion has gone on long enough, and the armies and science academies of the IS have had time to analyze the salvage they'd recovered. But this doesn't happen in earnest until after the Battle of Luthien and the Tukayyid in 3052. It certainly doesn't happen overnight; OmniPod-compatible IS OmniMechs don't start hitting the battlefields until the mid 3050's. Alternately, you could try and jury-rig an Clan OmniPod-based weapon to a standard IS chassis, but that opens you up to a whole host of problems. Like using a Mac mouse on a PC; you might be able to get it to work, but it won't be fun to use.
Instead, we're stuck in a perpetual ground-hog day of somewhere in the 3049-3051 timeframe. Sucks to be us.
And for anyone that's curious, like me, here's all the post-Invasion IS OmniMechs with their production years:
Templar - 3062
Sunder - 3056
Strider - 3057
Raptor - 3052
Perseus - 3058
Owens - 3056
Men Shen - 3060
Hauptmann - 3060
Firestarter - 3056
Blackjack - 3057
Black Hawk KU - 3055
Avatar - 3056
Arctic Fox - 3059
I loves me an Owens. And a bunch of the others.
Honestly these people have no self awareness.
We're currently in 3052 judging from the Cicada 3F injection.
Simpler, sure. But wouldn't it just make IS gear into another "fun tax" like single heat sinks? It doesn't sound great.
On a related note -- I don't know if any amount of fiddling is going to establish viable roles for both single and double heat sinks. People have suggested letting one type of heat sink increase capacity and another increase dissipation, but I don't think that's going to open up any variety in builds or gameplay. I think it would be a mistake to have any more decisions along the axis of short range extended brawler vs. long range one-shot sniper, since you end up making it hard to do anything besides one or the other.
I think the easiest thing to do would be to break with BT rules and rework the system to let 'Mechs mount singles and doubles together. PGI gets to keep the progression they're going for, but it's no longer a miserable grind with a single gigantic improvement at the end.
Clans being able to shoot you for a good 10 seconds before you can shoot them is bullshit and deserves being beat to death with a nerfhammer.
Also this is a PLAY TEST, NOTHING IN IT IS GOING INTO LIVE ITS JUST DATA HARVESTING.
All of which are reasons why I laugh at the cryhard clans.
edit
Orogogus there are mechs in table top that mount both single and double heatsinks, so its not unprecedented.
Not really. I mean, if they just add a variable to allow IS mechs access to Clan lasers, yeah, it would be. Which is why I'm thinking the best solution isn't to nerf Clan lasers into the ground, but advance the timeline to where IS lasers are equivalent to the Clan ones. Or, if they don't want to advance the timeline, just break from TT (like they haven't done that already) and buff IS lasers to where they're equivalent to Clan lasers.