oh hah I just wrote a huge post while you reached essentially the same conclusion. Well. Carry on.
Also it's legit to ragepost; need somewhere to vent! And everyone can relate.
edit: @Hiryu02 , do read my post though. It got stuck on the bottom of last page.
It is possible to get out of bronze doing pretty much what you want. I think the main reason I was able to support out of bronze is that no one wants to support, so my opposing support was usually just someone who didn't necessarily want to support and was just wanted a quick game. Enter me and my rather aggressive laning style and I'm pretty sure I made more than a few people salty.
It is possible to get out of bronze doing pretty much what you want. I think the main reason I was able to support out of bronze is that no one wants to support, so my opposing support was usually just someone who didn't necessarily want to support and was just wanted a quick game. Enter me and my rather aggressive laning style and I'm pretty sure I made more than a few people salty.
Yeah, one friend right now has gotten from Bronze 5 to Bronze 3 by supporting (and by yelling at his teammates about playing like a team, including banning his own team's hovered AD mids if team has no AP etc, which seems extremely iffy to me but works for him, so ok.)
But no, you can't get out of bronze by doing anything you want. You can get out of bronze by doing anything you want *that you are also good at*. So you have to recognize your own strengths and weaknesses.
The only thing I'd say to credeiki's point is that picking a single champion and just playing them regardless isn't actually that terrible of a strategy in bronze/silver.
Remember that counter-picks exist assuming a few things:
1: Both players are equal skill, both at the game and at their champions
2: The player picking the counter-pick has a good understanding of why the champion they're playing "counters" the champion they're against
3: The lane exists in a vacuum
4: The game will begin and end in the laning phase(Renekton counters Jax in lane pretty easily, but
Also remember that most counter-pick lists are vote-based. Which means there's often a ton of pointless theorycrafting(Garen Q goes right through Poppy's W! Counter!)
Also team comps in bronze are kind of not actually a thing. It's not too hard to say "Well our team is a heavy engage team, but doesn't have a good tank, so I should play an engage tank" or "Well our team has lots of AD but very little AP, so I should play an AP top", but you're assuming so much about how the team will play in those statements that it's really not worth it. What if your Ori midlane can't land an ult to save her life, and you picked darius because he'd be great with the ball/ult? What if you picked a protect-the-kog comp, and your kog is always split-pushing bot?
If you're really good at a single champion, and get to a point where you really understand how they work and how their kit holds together, and what's safe with them, etc. you'll probably do better on that champion than if you've just been constantly switching champs because "Coutners" or "team comp". Also if you can adapt your build based on what's going on, and you know the champ well enough to play it with other builds than just recommended/probuilds then you can have impacts in different ways than just what the champ "normally" does.
That being said, you should also make sure you really like the champion that you're playing, and that you can find success with them. For instance, I really want to like Vayne, but it turns out I'm not actually good enough with her to play her a bunch anymore, so I don't really play Vayne anymore.
The "you must be good enough to get out of bronze" goes without saying. But yeah, you can climb with any role. When I first made my climb to gold a couple seasons ago, it was because I just offered to play jungle/support every game. And it's not even because I'm good at support. But the games I got forced to do it, I dominated quite often, because at gold and below, the support is most often the person who got stuck doing it. So even an adequate but not great support player like me makes the guy who hates supporting and didn't want to do it look bad.
+1
Red Raevynbecause I only take Bubble BathsRegistered Userregular
I'm not sure if I can watch replays on my tablet, and I don't understand why op.gg gives me the replay option on only one game from my last 20 or so and the rest don't have a replay option. Not too familiar with op.gg intricacies, though.
If you can play the game you can watch the replays; it launches the game client to play them.
OP.GG only records a replay if requested by someone - you have to click "record" during the match on one of the participant's op.gg page. You can alt-tab during load screen to do it, for instance. So what you're seeing are some games where one of the ten people involved (or someone else) went there and clicked record at some point in the match.
Hiryu--I totally understand getting frustrated at losses. I of course enjoy winning and climbing and care about my ladder rank. Really enjoying myself atm because I feel like I am being impactful and pulling teams to victory. However, it has not always been this way. Some insights:
If you want to climb, be willing to reinvent yourself
Hard-carry out of bronze
I like these insights and just wanted to add my own two cents.
1.) Reinventing yourself:
When I started playing League, I eventually found myself gravitating to Jungle--I think it's because my brother played support, and the meta-game was more difficult for junglers and supports so there was less desire for those roles. (It's gotten way better--anyone complaining about support this season should find a time machine to go back a few years.) But when I started playing Ranked in Season 3, I found myself being willing to fill whatever was needed and so getting stuck with mostly support roles. Surprisingly, I identified with it fairly quickly and became a support main for about a season or so (if you look at my admittedly pitiful samples of ranked games across Seasons 3-5, you can see a clear trend). But I became a lot better at it, and playing support was probably the best thing I could have done to help my jungling by improving map awareness, warding, and team-fighting strategy. Right now, I would consider myself a jungle / ADC player--and I would attribute most of my skill at ADC, whatever's there, to things I learned playing support (basically, everything but last-hitting). You can learn so much by switching to other roles. With New Champ Select, you don't have to change as much, but you might be surprised at what you find out if you do experiment a bit. As an in-role example, several months ago I decided that I needed to play different champions rather than my preferred tanky initiators so I can carry people even from jungle--mastery level 5 with Pantheon, Graves, and Udyr later, I think I'm better at just beating people with jungle champions (and I have a new appreciation for the somewhat-similar Kindred as well). Additionally, I think I'm better at carrying even on a different jungle pool--my last 4 games with Sejuani were 10/5/26, 10/2/16, 7/1/14 (all wins), and 9/9/21 (loss).
Probably best to do that in normals, but experimenting really helps you appreciate what's going on in other lanes, which is obviously key for a jungler.
2.) Carry out of Bronze:
While I think Poppy probably can carry if you're just absolutely crushing your opponent, you might be better served playing other characters top lane. You already jungle Pantheon and Volibear--why not bring those two top lane? Pantheon in particular is very good there, but there's a lot of overlap in champion pools between those positions. I'd also recommend giving Udyr a try in the jungle--if you get ahead with him, he can split push, and there's nothing the enemy team can do about it without giving up other objectives. (He's also fairly cheap for IP.) Best of all, you clear fast enough that you're going to be ahead if you do it right. The Trick2G persona is kind of grating, but watch some stuff by him and you'll see why Udyr has been one of the best junglers for a while now.
CesarB had good advice about carrying on non-carry roles as well--if you're playing Volibear, for example, just get really tanky so that you can fight anyone they send and encourage your team to do stuff while you're making things unbearable for your opponents. That's basically the same theory for Udyr, Shyvana, and some of these others that scale really well into late game. Always stay focused on objectives--yeah, killing people is great, but in and of itself it doesn't always translate into winning the game. Taking towers, dragons, Baron--your ultimate goal is to make sure that Nexus explodes.
And as you messaged me last night, it probably is a good idea for you to stop playing Shyvana in ranked until you get a better handle on her. I do suspect Bronze teams don't play around her as well when she's on their side, but that doesn't mean she can't carry.
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Hiryu--I totally understand getting frustrated at losses. I of course enjoy winning and climbing and care about my ladder rank. Really enjoying myself atm because I feel like I am being impactful and pulling teams to victory. However, it has not always been this way. Some insights (spoilered for wall of text):
Play Normals:
Some people tell you to just spam ranked games forever. That's fine, but...it can be depressing if you don't like seeing the LP disappear. Plus, you're in Bronze, and the toxicity/craziness in ranked is probably pretty high. I looked at your match history and see you lost 6 Shyvana jungle matches in a row. If that were me, I would go into Normals with the goal of playing Shyvana until I won a couple of games with her. Playing in normals 1. breaks the ranked tilt and 2. generally allows you the psychological freedom to take risks. Often when playing ranked it's like, well, better stick with what I know. But in normals I (and perhaps you) feel more empowered to try new things and push your limits, and you may end up getting out of your local minimum and finding a better playstyle/jungle path/teamfight style/build path along the way.
Just because a champion has the highest winrate in a role doesn't mean they have the highest winrate for you
...I can't play Janna at the moment even though she is statistically freelo. Certainly check in with the fotm champions and see if they click/why they are strong/gather intel to play against them cause they'll probably be popular...but if you've played, say, 10 games on a champion and you aren't even 4-6 with them, you can guess that they aren't clicking with you for whatever reason. I can generally tell before 10 games just feeling whether I'm doing well or not.
Develop a broad knowledge
Have you played every champion in the game yet? If you are a jungler, you're going to be intersecting every other role early. You need to know who has dashes and how fast and big they are and how much damage people have at various points in the game. It would also help to be able to look at lane matchups and guess who will be stronger, your team or theirs. Can you?
(optional) If you want to climb, be willing to reinvent yourself
You are playing to climb (you definitely don't have to, but you obviously are. Which is fine--I do too). Look at your stats.
1. WHY are you still playing Shyvana? You cannot play Shyvana at this elo. Unclear if you are bad at her or your teammates can't work with her but regardless it is not working and it's making you hemorrhage LP. Table her for now.
2. I know you like Poppy, but it seems like you are picking her every single game regardless of teamcomp or matchup (I don't see any other toplaners in your match history?). Champion.gg suggests she's countered by Garen (idk if this is true in bronze or in your experience.)--do you have an alternative for when someone picks Garen? It also sounds like you don't feel impactful on her. I get that she's fun, but if you are interested in gaining LP, you should probably try some other toplaners for a while. You are not breaking even on W-L with Poppy.
I used to main Caitlyn when I first started playing, and she took me from Bronze 2 to Silver 5, but then I started losing as her. After 30-ish games, I realized my winrate was not even 50%. I knew that even though I love playing Caitlyn, I would have to find someone else if I wanted to climb. I tried playing different adcs--in normals--and glommed onto Sivir. The next season, I played 170 games of Sivir at a 60% winrate and went from Silver 5 to gold 5.
3. Are you carrying as bruisers? No? (no, you are not. Sorry, but that is how the numbers are right now.) Try playing non-bruisers (or different bruisers). This is where you decide if you are trying to gain LP or if you are playing champions that are cool to you. I prefer playing as cool glass cannon human female champions and now my main is a walking diving suit. But now I feel affection for said diving suit and feel a lot more comfortable playing as a tanky engager.
4. Do you like jungling, or are you just playing it because you can play as tanks there too? Are you completely sure you want to be queuing as top/jg? Experiment with different roles!
(optional) Hard-carry out of bronze
I'm not convinced Poppy is the best way out of Bronze. I never really see her get a lot of damage or become particularly unstoppable. *If* you think you are more skilled than your opponents right now (are you? how is your cs compared to theirs?) you may want to pick more of a 'carry'. Who have you seen becoming unstoppable on enemy teams if ahead (Riven, Mundo, Fiora, Wukong, Pantheon, Garen?) Could you do that? With the high variability/crazy toxic people in mid-bronze, it's probably not enough to get carried, and can you generally count on your teams to do good stuff when you set up teamfights for them?
Thanks for the detailed post. I will try to go into similar detail.
Normals - I play normals to basically get a handle on champions and understand their play pattern before I take them into ranked. I have had multiple games on Shyv in norms and also multiple wins, so I felt comfortable enough to take her into Ranked. I don't usually play norms on champs I know how to play etc because I do like my games to be toward a certain goal.
Freelo Champs - I guess I want to feel like I'm giving champs a fair number of games before I table them. The thing is that I have carried on Shyv, in ranked at that. So it's kind of a carrot I dangle in front of myself but cannot seem to reach a second or third time. I don't know if it's simply because I don't have enough champ experience, bad teammates or bad choices on my part. Because there are so many moving parts in a game I don't know exactly what I'm doing right v wrong on Shyv, aside from the basic surface details.
Champion knowledge - I do have a fairly decent grasp of most matchups, esp in toplane. I may not know every single passive and ability cooldown on all champions, but I know the basics of what probably the 50 most common champs can do.
Why am I playing Shyvana? - Because I like what she can do when she gets going. However I am starting to agree that she is not good in Bronze. Probably because Bronze laners can't play safe/need ganks/babysitting/don't provide enough breathing room for me to get sated etc. I agree that I will probably table her for now and pick Xin in her stead.
Poppy - I like playing her because I don't tilt badly with her and I feel (operative word feel) somewhat more impactful as her due to her potential for control, cc and denial. FWIW I looked at my last 15 Poppy games and I'm 8-7 with her. In addition, some of the 7 losses are to weird picks I had never encountered before in top. Rengar, Singed(!!!), Irelia (yes no one plays Irelia in Bronze apparently) and Yorick. I mean Yorick? I do know Garen counters her after an early encounter with him in norms and I know to counter with Darius or Olaf next time I see Garen in ranked, which actually hasn't happened yet. I do feel impactful with her normally, and I have a ton of experience on her now. I've beaten or gone even in lane/won games vs Graves, Darius, Mundo, Voli, Nasus and Illaoi. So I think I am at least competent with her. She does rely on her team for a lot of wins, which may be the issue. But as far as Poppy goes I'm over 50% with her in toplane. Am I not looking at the numbers correctly?
Top/JG or JG/Top roles - I do NOT do well as assassins/squishies. I already went through my wannabe-Faker Zed phase and I don't do well in mid and I do not want to play in botlane. I go for tanks because they give me more leeway to survive if I make a mistake. I guess I could go back to Darius in toplane but I honestly am unsure if I can teamfight well with him. I enjoy Poppy the most out of all my champion pool and based on my Poppy games I'm actually doing okay with her.
Carrying - I don't go for traditional carry champions because I do not like the added mental burden of being a carry, I would rather enable my team. This of course means I should not be salty when my team doesn't carry, but when I try to carry as Devourer JG's, well, you see what happens. I kind of disagree that Poppy can't carry. I have multiple games where I out-damage my adc in a winning game. I had a recent game where I straight up never died. She's pretty tanky and I think does respectable damage. If anything the complaints I see about her is that she does too much damage for how tanky she gets, but I guess everyone's mileage may vary.
I hope those responses clarify some of my thinking and please feel free to further critique my games and approach to the game. I appreciated the detailed response.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
@Hiryu02 : ok, if you are hitting 50% on Poppy, by all means go for it, although 55-60 is better for reliable climb. On lolking.net I am seeing 11W-15L, but maybe that includes Poppy jg or old games that you feel don't reflect how you currently play her.
I think I haven't really seen her in games (outside of tuesday night League, where she is generally not super-impactful because of the particular Tuesday night meta) this season, so I actually don't have a great idea of how she influences the game. I also haven't played her since her rework because I am a hypocrite.
OK, hearing your reasoning, you champion select makes sense. Just make sure that it is backed up by the actual numbers. You may feel like you are carrying, but if you end up consistently not winning despite that feeling, something is going wrong. (Like again with me and playing Caitlyn a few years ago--I always felt like I was doing well because I would crush lane--because Caitlyn is designed to crush lane, although at the time I didn't quite understand that--and then I would derp around and not really understand how to transition that advantage to the rest of the game, and then be really perplexed when I lost, even though I felt like I was doing well.)
I am playing very team-oriented as well (support Nautilus)--but I guess I think of it as individually carrying? Like it's my responsibility to completely control the botlane and drag my adc to victory, as well as getting vision on my side of the map and even alleviating pressure mid after a few levels. All of that is up to me--as is reasonable teamfight peel and/or lockdown. I feel like I have a lot of agency. I know you don't want to play support, but...it's pretty great to be able to affect 3 other people during laning instead of just one.
Do you ever TP botlane? It's pretty much the best when the friendly toplaner comes down and everyone gets some kills. Probably it can work in bronze as long as you ping a lot or type it out in chat.
Yes, I do TP botlane whenever the opportunity presents itself. Issue is that there are often no wards to TP to in bronze. Sometimes not even minions in a good spot to TP to lol. I could probably always TP more. I did have a nice TP play recently I was proud of and turned a chase on our adc into a double kill for our side plus a T2 tower into the bargain.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
I think that a lot of people poo poo support and think that it's a lame role, but having a support who can actually support you as an adc is a godsend. I got so fed, and was able to carry because I actually had some players who were able to set up kills, protect me from jungle ganks, and provide that kind of clutch body in fights. I've actually found that I really worry about non tanky supports more than I do when my support goes tanky. Maybe it's because the kits for the tankier guys tend to have stuns and such but when my support is a Sona I worry that they are going to go too aggro and feed without caring about where the minions are and whether I've been harassed back behind the line
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Just tuned back into Nightblue and during a short work break and apparently dude has not won a single game all day on stream today. I feel somewhat heartened by this, because I am a terrible person.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
This video is hilarious, but also really relevant, because this was on the end of he and dominate having like a half dozen losses in a row where they just kept getting dumpstered and queued with the guy playing the troll roaming teemo support with cleanse.
I guess as a companion question to my earlier subjects, should I be playing Devourer junglers in Bronze at all?
I'm thinking to go back to Xin Zhao when I do play a Dev jungler so I still have good ganks and early game pressure while scaling up into late game.
Essentially my JG pool would be:
Voli - Cinderhulk, when we need tanks and our top laner is a carry-type top.
Panth - Warrior, kind of a general pick, if we are low on stuns and if we need some AD damage.
Xin - Devourer, build Dev/Guinsoos, then tank. If I feel the game is going to reach later stages and we need early reliable CC. Probably a good match with a Yasuo mid.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
I guess as a companion question to my earlier subjects, should I be playing Devourer junglers in Bronze at all?
I'm thinking to go back to Xin Zhao when I do play a Dev jungler so I still have good ganks and early game pressure while scaling up into late game.
Essentially my JG pool would be:
Voli - Cinderhulk, when we need tanks and our top laner is a carry-type top.
Panth - Warrior, kind of a general pick, if we are low on stuns and if we need some AD damage.
Xin - Devourer, build Dev/Guinsoos, then tank. If I feel the game is going to reach later stages and we need early reliable CC. Probably a good match with a Yasuo mid.
Again, play who you are best at and feel most comfortable with. Don't worry about counters at this level. You playing well is the best counter against your lane.
As we continue to tell you, you need to focus on getting better. Worry about counters, match ups, etc later. Focus on farming, buying the right items and basic mechanics.
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Okay will do. I have a tendency to over-think these things. My apologies.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
I guess as a companion question to my earlier subjects, should I be playing Devourer junglers in Bronze at all?
Bear / Spartan / Li Shang stuff
Please let me sell you on Udyr. He can build literally any of the jungle items (I wouldn't use Cinderhulk or Warrior right now just because the other two are so good, but he can do it) and can fill into any of those roles. You need a tank? Build tanky. You need damage? Go Tiger Stance and eat all the things. Auto-attacking AoE magic damage? Devourer Phoenix. Has a CC ability on demand and doesn't have to worry about getting his ultimate for the power spike. A little mana hungry, but take blue buff, build mana, and / or build Runic Echoes to fix that.
Pantheon, Volibear, and Xin are all fine choices, by the way, but I think if you enjoy Shyvana you'll enjoy playing Udyr. Both are basically about fast clears and AoE magic damage (can be single-target with Tiger) whose ganks involve walking up to people and punching them. Udyr has less damage but an on-hit stun and better sustain--it doesn't matter a whole lot, but if you get super-low with Shyvana you might have to back, while Udyr will walk into the jungle and heal off Turtle Stance.
But, you know, do play champions you enjoy. I just think if you've been trying Shyvana you'll find ManBearPigCatShellFirechicken reasonable.
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I will add something the play what makes you comfortable.
Sometimes you need to look at the four silly geese on your team, and if no one is the least bit capable of being tanky, you should. Unless your team comp is the most wombo-combo team possible. I don't know how Shyv does with cinderhulk, but sometimes you have to fill a weakness on the fly.
Okay will do. I have a tendency to over-think these things. My apologies.
Play whatever you're best on. In the seasons i've climbed to gold, I did it on a combo of Udyr, Yi, Skarner, and Xin Zhao in the jungle, depending on the meta and what worked best for me at the time. On Udyr and Yi it was all about personal farming and getting ahead of the whole map, ganking when I had a wide open opportunity. On Skarner and Xin it was farming fast but ganking relentlessly.
If you play enough jungle, you start to get a feel for where to be on the map, and when you reach that point where do stuff like cruise in to bot lane as the enemy bot lane engages for an all in and you clean up and snowball the game off it, that's when you start to get real comfortable.
Alright, permabanning Shvyana from here on out. The frontline power and the speed at which she gets sated is a bit ridiculous. I had no idea what my friend was talking about when he said he was permabanning Shyvana in D1 until now. Feels really oppressive after losing two games to it, but that's how everything feels after you lose to it twice in a row I think. Just a migraine to deal with though, especially when you're not the jungler.
Shyvana snowballs so godamn hard right now, it's stupid. Once she gets up like 2-3 kills, she gets sated, takes every map objective, and practically wins every duel.
If your frustration with the game outweighs your enjoyment, do not play.
I enjoy winning. As I think most people do. I don't expect to win all the time.
My frustration i think stems from the feeling that there is a limited amount of influence that I personally have over my games. When I win games, I feel that it's directly attributable to my teammates pulling their weight. When I lose games in which I personally don't feed/make major misplays etc, I hold my own, but my teammates don't and we lose, those are the games that frustrate the heck out of me.
This most recent game for example. Is it wrong to attribute the loss to Vayne going afk for a critical part of the lane phase and falling behind so she was irrelevant later on? I'm ready to blame myself when I know I threw the game for the team, but what if I'm just doing ok but teammates are not even just doing ok in their roles?
At the end of the day. You're the only constant. Just play and focus on being better. If you're better, you'll win more. if you're not, you won't.
Can I be real here for a second? If my ceiling is what it is right now, then I'm done with the game. I know I'm the only constant, but I can't help but feel like many many games are out of my control. I can only control myself. I can not die, or not get ganked, or whatever, but if my team isn't good either what can I do.
People like to say don't be too heavy to carry. I don't think I am. I also think some folks here have forgotten what it means to be Bronze and the frustration that comes with it.
there is no need to force yourself to play a game you don't enjoy at the moment in pursuit of some illusory ranking if that is the case
it's perfectly fine to take breaks and/or not play
I really shouldn't post after losses, I think. I don't put forth constructive questions and I'm sorry.
Let me ask. How do you look back at your game, and objectively critique yourself so that you can isolate whether or not your performance was the crucial factor in a loss?
I know it's easiest to blame outside factors and so on, and that's something I do tend to do and wish to avoid. So, how do I impartially gauge my own contributions to games? It's easy for me to say, here was a good play that "I" did that helped us win. It's harder for me to say "this was a bad play that led to our loss", especially in games where I'm not feeding, but not overperforming either.
Sorry for the negativity, I'll try to refocus on constructive methods of improvement.
I just had a ranked game with the most idiotic good player i have ever seen, or worst genius player i have ever ever seen - even though our Ezreal bot was 2/0 and was winning lane from the start, our Lux decided to help him... and stay in his lane for 5 minutes, even though he didnt need any of it. I couldnt protect mid because of Garen against which i was laning, our jungler was doing i dont know what, so enemy Malzahar destroyed 2 mid turrets before 10 minutes mark, and i think we lost inhibitor at 15 minute. Ezreal was fed, i was good but it didnt matter, because entire long bloody game we had to defend mid lane while enemy team was scoring objectives elsewhere. Even when we won teamfights we couldnt push, because we were to busy killing superminions. Obviously, we lost, because we couldnt destroy more than 3 enemy turrets.
I think i never saw one early mistake shaping entire game so much as in this game.
I just had a ranked game with the most idiotic good player i have ever seen, or worst genius player i have ever ever seen - even though our Ezreal bot was 2/0 and was winning lane from the start, our Lux decided to help him... and stay in his lane for 5 minutes, even though he didnt need any of it. I couldnt protect mid because of Garen against which i was laning, our jungler was doing i dont know what, so enemy Malzahar destroyed 2 mid turrets before 10 minutes mark, and i think we lost inhibitor at 15 minute. Ezreal was fed, i was good but it didnt matter, because entire long bloody game we had to defend mid lane while enemy team was scoring objectives elsewhere. Even when we won teamfights we couldnt push, because we were to busy killing superminions. Obviously, we lost, because we couldnt destroy more than 3 enemy turrets.
I think i never saw one early mistake shaping entire game so much as in this game.
Had a similar scenario recently, we had 3 ppl top for an extended period. I went in for a gank, got involved in a countergank, then our midlane Zed came up and tried to help take down the tower I guess? I didn't want to leave them as JG because I was afraid their mid would come top and flank us and sure enough she did, we overstayed like crazy and lost the next skirmish 2-3. Should I have left the mid and toplaner alone when they wouldn't back off from the turret?
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
I just had a ranked game with the most idiotic good player i have ever seen, or worst genius player i have ever ever seen - even though our Ezreal bot was 2/0 and was winning lane from the start, our Lux decided to help him... and stay in his lane for 5 minutes, even though he didnt need any of it. I couldnt protect mid because of Garen against which i was laning, our jungler was doing i dont know what, so enemy Malzahar destroyed 2 mid turrets before 10 minutes mark, and i think we lost inhibitor at 15 minute. Ezreal was fed, i was good but it didnt matter, because entire long bloody game we had to defend mid lane while enemy team was scoring objectives elsewhere. Even when we won teamfights we couldnt push, because we were to busy killing superminions. Obviously, we lost, because we couldnt destroy more than 3 enemy turrets.
I think i never saw one early mistake shaping entire game so much as in this game.
Had a similar scenario recently, we had 3 ppl top for an extended period. I went in for a gank, got involved in a countergank, then our midlane Zed came up and tried to help take down the tower I guess? I didn't want to leave them as JG because I was afraid their mid would come top and flank us and sure enough she did, we overstayed like crazy and lost the next skirmish 2-3. Should I have left the mid and toplaner alone when they wouldn't back off from the turret?
Yes. Leave a ward on the way out if you can. If you're concerned about the enemy midlaner showing up you can head midlane yourself. Most midlaners will push their lane before heading to a sidelane so if you can prevent that you can head off the flank without being there yourself. If they flank top without clearing mid then you can pressure that turret. In either case your midlaner is leaving farm mid and someone should be picking that up, may as well be you.
Lots of good advice in this thread. Couple of things that have helped me in the past.
1) Don't focus on winning, focus on getting better each game. Even if you stomped the game 9-0 and hard carried your team, look at the errors you made. You will get better, and you will win more.
When I hit plat 1 in season three, I was watching every game I played. Even ones where I was crushing the game, the number of mistakes was massive. You can learn from every game - win or lose.
2) Feel free to post your games for feedback/critique. A few people have done that in the past and found the advice invaluable.
3) Don't be afraid to bully your lane. When you watch pros typically they will attempt to take control of their lane early, either by asking for ganks specifically or by simply out-muscling their opponent. For where you are at right now, I would focus on learning how to win trades and know when to go all-in for the kill. Once you have that advantage you can capture CS easier and harass your lane opponent, forcing them off CS.
4) Don't be afraid to learn hard carry champs. Katrina, Akali, Yi, Shy, Irelia, etc, can absolutely dominate games once they get ahead. Hard carry champs can put in you a great position to win just by how hard they snowball and can take over games.
4) Don't be afraid to learn hard carry champs. Katrina, Akali, Yi, Shy, Irelia, etc, can absolutely dominate games once they get ahead. Hard carry champs can put in you a great position to win just by how hard they snowball and can take over games.
I haven't really figured out how to carry with Shyv yet, so I think I'm tabling her until I get into silver.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
I need out of Bronze. It seems no matter how good I do, my team sucks. Oh hey I'm Sorakka and healing the shit outof everyone and stunning like crazy? Looks like out first time mid Ekko should run in and get killed in 2 seconds every time.
Oh hey I choose a tank support? Everyone had better tell me what items they want me to buy and when I don't buy them they had better refuse to play until I get them.
Try playing jungle. "You weren't ganking all three lanes and counterjungling and killing dragon all at the same time, l2p scrub".
Seriously, the expectations people have of junglers can be REALLY FUCKING CRAZY.
This is possibly because games where a jungler gets on a roll they do in fact seem to be doing that (Particularly applicable to the strong gankers, when they get ahead they can go in and just dictate kills, which snowballs the game hard).
This video is hilarious, but also really relevant, because this was on the end of he and dominate having like a half dozen losses in a row where they just kept getting dumpstered and queued with the guy playing the troll roaming teemo support with cleanse.
I find it helps to have others to laugh with. Otherwise, it's just frustrating. At least with another person, you can joke around and treat it like some bizarro-world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uebGL0KlY3U
I also feel that Riot is shying away from exactly what their client's game-maker was built to offer: more options. They're removing options instead. The list under "Game Mode" and "Game Map" is more empty than it is full. You'd think it would be a bit less barren after 7 years.
Ouch. 0-2 vs Naut top, glad he's getting nerfed. Does waay too much damage. Also he knew how to fight Poppy and I did not have the requisite matchup knowledge myself. Some thing to sock away for next time.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
Yeah Boy! After my Cho mid shittalked my Shyv record (which IS a bad record, I just thought it was rude and no one has actually looked up my stats in lobby before) we managed to actually win with me on Shyvana lol. I definitely need to get calmer in teamfights as Shyv. I tend to click too much and cancel autos etc. I'm still so nervous playing her in ranked because of the loss streak I had. Not at the point yet where the tfs are slowing down to my eye enough to be super precise at execution. I spend a lot of time hammering buttons.
I think we won in this game because we had CC on supp, mid and top, so my ult was mainly used to peel Yi off Jinx. Still really need to work on my ult usage as aside from peeling with it or jumping through a teamfight with W on to spread some damage around I still don't use it effectively. I wonder how dumb it would be to build something like Rylais for the slows so my W and other stuff actually slows enemies?
Or am I dumb and I should just build Randuins and use the item active. Which I should, I just hate using item actives or I forget I have them.
Frozen Mallet? Iceborn Gauntlet maybe?
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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Also it's legit to ragepost; need somewhere to vent! And everyone can relate.
edit: @Hiryu02 , do read my post though. It got stuck on the bottom of last page.
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Yeah, one friend right now has gotten from Bronze 5 to Bronze 3 by supporting (and by yelling at his teammates about playing like a team, including banning his own team's hovered AD mids if team has no AP etc, which seems extremely iffy to me but works for him, so ok.)
But no, you can't get out of bronze by doing anything you want. You can get out of bronze by doing anything you want *that you are also good at*. So you have to recognize your own strengths and weaknesses.
Remember that counter-picks exist assuming a few things:
1: Both players are equal skill, both at the game and at their champions
2: The player picking the counter-pick has a good understanding of why the champion they're playing "counters" the champion they're against
3: The lane exists in a vacuum
4: The game will begin and end in the laning phase(Renekton counters Jax in lane pretty easily, but
Also remember that most counter-pick lists are vote-based. Which means there's often a ton of pointless theorycrafting(Garen Q goes right through Poppy's W! Counter!)
Also team comps in bronze are kind of not actually a thing. It's not too hard to say "Well our team is a heavy engage team, but doesn't have a good tank, so I should play an engage tank" or "Well our team has lots of AD but very little AP, so I should play an AP top", but you're assuming so much about how the team will play in those statements that it's really not worth it. What if your Ori midlane can't land an ult to save her life, and you picked darius because he'd be great with the ball/ult? What if you picked a protect-the-kog comp, and your kog is always split-pushing bot?
If you're really good at a single champion, and get to a point where you really understand how they work and how their kit holds together, and what's safe with them, etc. you'll probably do better on that champion than if you've just been constantly switching champs because "Coutners" or "team comp". Also if you can adapt your build based on what's going on, and you know the champ well enough to play it with other builds than just recommended/probuilds then you can have impacts in different ways than just what the champ "normally" does.
That being said, you should also make sure you really like the champion that you're playing, and that you can find success with them. For instance, I really want to like Vayne, but it turns out I'm not actually good enough with her to play her a bunch anymore, so I don't really play Vayne anymore.
If you can play the game you can watch the replays; it launches the game client to play them.
OP.GG only records a replay if requested by someone - you have to click "record" during the match on one of the participant's op.gg page. You can alt-tab during load screen to do it, for instance. So what you're seeing are some games where one of the ten people involved (or someone else) went there and clicked record at some point in the match.
I like these insights and just wanted to add my own two cents.
1.) Reinventing yourself:
When I started playing League, I eventually found myself gravitating to Jungle--I think it's because my brother played support, and the meta-game was more difficult for junglers and supports so there was less desire for those roles. (It's gotten way better--anyone complaining about support this season should find a time machine to go back a few years.) But when I started playing Ranked in Season 3, I found myself being willing to fill whatever was needed and so getting stuck with mostly support roles. Surprisingly, I identified with it fairly quickly and became a support main for about a season or so (if you look at my admittedly pitiful samples of ranked games across Seasons 3-5, you can see a clear trend). But I became a lot better at it, and playing support was probably the best thing I could have done to help my jungling by improving map awareness, warding, and team-fighting strategy. Right now, I would consider myself a jungle / ADC player--and I would attribute most of my skill at ADC, whatever's there, to things I learned playing support (basically, everything but last-hitting). You can learn so much by switching to other roles. With New Champ Select, you don't have to change as much, but you might be surprised at what you find out if you do experiment a bit. As an in-role example, several months ago I decided that I needed to play different champions rather than my preferred tanky initiators so I can carry people even from jungle--mastery level 5 with Pantheon, Graves, and Udyr later, I think I'm better at just beating people with jungle champions (and I have a new appreciation for the somewhat-similar Kindred as well). Additionally, I think I'm better at carrying even on a different jungle pool--my last 4 games with Sejuani were 10/5/26, 10/2/16, 7/1/14 (all wins), and 9/9/21 (loss).
Probably best to do that in normals, but experimenting really helps you appreciate what's going on in other lanes, which is obviously key for a jungler.
2.) Carry out of Bronze:
While I think Poppy probably can carry if you're just absolutely crushing your opponent, you might be better served playing other characters top lane. You already jungle Pantheon and Volibear--why not bring those two top lane? Pantheon in particular is very good there, but there's a lot of overlap in champion pools between those positions. I'd also recommend giving Udyr a try in the jungle--if you get ahead with him, he can split push, and there's nothing the enemy team can do about it without giving up other objectives. (He's also fairly cheap for IP.) Best of all, you clear fast enough that you're going to be ahead if you do it right. The Trick2G persona is kind of grating, but watch some stuff by him and you'll see why Udyr has been one of the best junglers for a while now.
CesarB had good advice about carrying on non-carry roles as well--if you're playing Volibear, for example, just get really tanky so that you can fight anyone they send and encourage your team to do stuff while you're making things unbearable for your opponents. That's basically the same theory for Udyr, Shyvana, and some of these others that scale really well into late game. Always stay focused on objectives--yeah, killing people is great, but in and of itself it doesn't always translate into winning the game. Taking towers, dragons, Baron--your ultimate goal is to make sure that Nexus explodes.
And as you messaged me last night, it probably is a good idea for you to stop playing Shyvana in ranked until you get a better handle on her. I do suspect Bronze teams don't play around her as well when she's on their side, but that doesn't mean she can't carry.
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Thanks for the detailed post. I will try to go into similar detail.
Freelo Champs - I guess I want to feel like I'm giving champs a fair number of games before I table them. The thing is that I have carried on Shyv, in ranked at that. So it's kind of a carrot I dangle in front of myself but cannot seem to reach a second or third time. I don't know if it's simply because I don't have enough champ experience, bad teammates or bad choices on my part. Because there are so many moving parts in a game I don't know exactly what I'm doing right v wrong on Shyv, aside from the basic surface details.
Champion knowledge - I do have a fairly decent grasp of most matchups, esp in toplane. I may not know every single passive and ability cooldown on all champions, but I know the basics of what probably the 50 most common champs can do.
Why am I playing Shyvana? - Because I like what she can do when she gets going. However I am starting to agree that she is not good in Bronze. Probably because Bronze laners can't play safe/need ganks/babysitting/don't provide enough breathing room for me to get sated etc. I agree that I will probably table her for now and pick Xin in her stead.
Poppy - I like playing her because I don't tilt badly with her and I feel (operative word feel) somewhat more impactful as her due to her potential for control, cc and denial. FWIW I looked at my last 15 Poppy games and I'm 8-7 with her. In addition, some of the 7 losses are to weird picks I had never encountered before in top. Rengar, Singed(!!!), Irelia (yes no one plays Irelia in Bronze apparently) and Yorick. I mean Yorick? I do know Garen counters her after an early encounter with him in norms and I know to counter with Darius or Olaf next time I see Garen in ranked, which actually hasn't happened yet. I do feel impactful with her normally, and I have a ton of experience on her now. I've beaten or gone even in lane/won games vs Graves, Darius, Mundo, Voli, Nasus and Illaoi. So I think I am at least competent with her. She does rely on her team for a lot of wins, which may be the issue. But as far as Poppy goes I'm over 50% with her in toplane. Am I not looking at the numbers correctly?
Top/JG or JG/Top roles - I do NOT do well as assassins/squishies. I already went through my wannabe-Faker Zed phase and I don't do well in mid and I do not want to play in botlane. I go for tanks because they give me more leeway to survive if I make a mistake. I guess I could go back to Darius in toplane but I honestly am unsure if I can teamfight well with him. I enjoy Poppy the most out of all my champion pool and based on my Poppy games I'm actually doing okay with her.
Carrying - I don't go for traditional carry champions because I do not like the added mental burden of being a carry, I would rather enable my team. This of course means I should not be salty when my team doesn't carry, but when I try to carry as Devourer JG's, well, you see what happens. I kind of disagree that Poppy can't carry. I have multiple games where I out-damage my adc in a winning game. I had a recent game where I straight up never died. She's pretty tanky and I think does respectable damage. If anything the complaints I see about her is that she does too much damage for how tanky she gets, but I guess everyone's mileage may vary.
I hope those responses clarify some of my thinking and please feel free to further critique my games and approach to the game. I appreciated the detailed response.
I think I haven't really seen her in games (outside of tuesday night League, where she is generally not super-impactful because of the particular Tuesday night meta) this season, so I actually don't have a great idea of how she influences the game. I also haven't played her since her rework because I am a hypocrite.
OK, hearing your reasoning, you champion select makes sense. Just make sure that it is backed up by the actual numbers. You may feel like you are carrying, but if you end up consistently not winning despite that feeling, something is going wrong. (Like again with me and playing Caitlyn a few years ago--I always felt like I was doing well because I would crush lane--because Caitlyn is designed to crush lane, although at the time I didn't quite understand that--and then I would derp around and not really understand how to transition that advantage to the rest of the game, and then be really perplexed when I lost, even though I felt like I was doing well.)
I am playing very team-oriented as well (support Nautilus)--but I guess I think of it as individually carrying? Like it's my responsibility to completely control the botlane and drag my adc to victory, as well as getting vision on my side of the map and even alleviating pressure mid after a few levels. All of that is up to me--as is reasonable teamfight peel and/or lockdown. I feel like I have a lot of agency. I know you don't want to play support, but...it's pretty great to be able to affect 3 other people during laning instead of just one.
Do you ever TP botlane? It's pretty much the best when the friendly toplaner comes down and everyone gets some kills. Probably it can work in bronze as long as you ping a lot or type it out in chat.
I think that a lot of people poo poo support and think that it's a lame role, but having a support who can actually support you as an adc is a godsend. I got so fed, and was able to carry because I actually had some players who were able to set up kills, protect me from jungle ganks, and provide that kind of clutch body in fights. I've actually found that I really worry about non tanky supports more than I do when my support goes tanky. Maybe it's because the kits for the tankier guys tend to have stuns and such but when my support is a Sona I worry that they are going to go too aggro and feed without caring about where the minions are and whether I've been harassed back behind the line
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
This video is hilarious, but also really relevant, because this was on the end of he and dominate having like a half dozen losses in a row where they just kept getting dumpstered and queued with the guy playing the troll roaming teemo support with cleanse.
I'm thinking to go back to Xin Zhao when I do play a Dev jungler so I still have good ganks and early game pressure while scaling up into late game.
Essentially my JG pool would be:
Voli - Cinderhulk, when we need tanks and our top laner is a carry-type top.
Panth - Warrior, kind of a general pick, if we are low on stuns and if we need some AD damage.
Xin - Devourer, build Dev/Guinsoos, then tank. If I feel the game is going to reach later stages and we need early reliable CC. Probably a good match with a Yasuo mid.
Again, play who you are best at and feel most comfortable with. Don't worry about counters at this level. You playing well is the best counter against your lane.
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Please let me sell you on Udyr. He can build literally any of the jungle items (I wouldn't use Cinderhulk or Warrior right now just because the other two are so good, but he can do it) and can fill into any of those roles. You need a tank? Build tanky. You need damage? Go Tiger Stance and eat all the things. Auto-attacking AoE magic damage? Devourer Phoenix. Has a CC ability on demand and doesn't have to worry about getting his ultimate for the power spike. A little mana hungry, but take blue buff, build mana, and / or build Runic Echoes to fix that.
Pantheon, Volibear, and Xin are all fine choices, by the way, but I think if you enjoy Shyvana you'll enjoy playing Udyr. Both are basically about fast clears and AoE magic damage (can be single-target with Tiger) whose ganks involve walking up to people and punching them. Udyr has less damage but an on-hit stun and better sustain--it doesn't matter a whole lot, but if you get super-low with Shyvana you might have to back, while Udyr will walk into the jungle and heal off Turtle Stance.
But, you know, do play champions you enjoy. I just think if you've been trying Shyvana you'll find ManBearPigCatShellFirechicken reasonable.
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Sometimes you need to look at the four silly geese on your team, and if no one is the least bit capable of being tanky, you should. Unless your team comp is the most wombo-combo team possible. I don't know how Shyv does with cinderhulk, but sometimes you have to fill a weakness on the fly.
Play whatever you're best on. In the seasons i've climbed to gold, I did it on a combo of Udyr, Yi, Skarner, and Xin Zhao in the jungle, depending on the meta and what worked best for me at the time. On Udyr and Yi it was all about personal farming and getting ahead of the whole map, ganking when I had a wide open opportunity. On Skarner and Xin it was farming fast but ganking relentlessly.
If you play enough jungle, you start to get a feel for where to be on the map, and when you reach that point where do stuff like cruise in to bot lane as the enemy bot lane engages for an all in and you clean up and snowball the game off it, that's when you start to get real comfortable.
This video is somehow very cute. That guy has so much fun playing Jhin!
Shyvana snowballs so godamn hard right now, it's stupid. Once she gets up like 2-3 kills, she gets sated, takes every map objective, and practically wins every duel.
It's nuts. I just can't play her for shit
nah man f that
Join me aboard the Salt Train.
Whoo Whoo!
I just had a ranked game with the most idiotic good player i have ever seen, or worst genius player i have ever ever seen - even though our Ezreal bot was 2/0 and was winning lane from the start, our Lux decided to help him... and stay in his lane for 5 minutes, even though he didnt need any of it. I couldnt protect mid because of Garen against which i was laning, our jungler was doing i dont know what, so enemy Malzahar destroyed 2 mid turrets before 10 minutes mark, and i think we lost inhibitor at 15 minute. Ezreal was fed, i was good but it didnt matter, because entire long bloody game we had to defend mid lane while enemy team was scoring objectives elsewhere. Even when we won teamfights we couldnt push, because we were to busy killing superminions. Obviously, we lost, because we couldnt destroy more than 3 enemy turrets.
I think i never saw one early mistake shaping entire game so much as in this game.
Had a similar scenario recently, we had 3 ppl top for an extended period. I went in for a gank, got involved in a countergank, then our midlane Zed came up and tried to help take down the tower I guess? I didn't want to leave them as JG because I was afraid their mid would come top and flank us and sure enough she did, we overstayed like crazy and lost the next skirmish 2-3. Should I have left the mid and toplaner alone when they wouldn't back off from the turret?
Yes. Leave a ward on the way out if you can. If you're concerned about the enemy midlaner showing up you can head midlane yourself. Most midlaners will push their lane before heading to a sidelane so if you can prevent that you can head off the flank without being there yourself. If they flank top without clearing mid then you can pressure that turret. In either case your midlaner is leaving farm mid and someone should be picking that up, may as well be you.
Lots of good advice in this thread. Couple of things that have helped me in the past.
1) Don't focus on winning, focus on getting better each game. Even if you stomped the game 9-0 and hard carried your team, look at the errors you made. You will get better, and you will win more.
When I hit plat 1 in season three, I was watching every game I played. Even ones where I was crushing the game, the number of mistakes was massive. You can learn from every game - win or lose.
2) Feel free to post your games for feedback/critique. A few people have done that in the past and found the advice invaluable.
3) Don't be afraid to bully your lane. When you watch pros typically they will attempt to take control of their lane early, either by asking for ganks specifically or by simply out-muscling their opponent. For where you are at right now, I would focus on learning how to win trades and know when to go all-in for the kill. Once you have that advantage you can capture CS easier and harass your lane opponent, forcing them off CS.
4) Don't be afraid to learn hard carry champs. Katrina, Akali, Yi, Shy, Irelia, etc, can absolutely dominate games once they get ahead. Hard carry champs can put in you a great position to win just by how hard they snowball and can take over games.
I haven't really figured out how to carry with Shyv yet, so I think I'm tabling her until I get into silver.
Oh hey I choose a tank support? Everyone had better tell me what items they want me to buy and when I don't buy them they had better refuse to play until I get them.
Seriously, the expectations people have of junglers can be REALLY FUCKING CRAZY.
This is possibly because games where a jungler gets on a roll they do in fact seem to be doing that (Particularly applicable to the strong gankers, when they get ahead they can go in and just dictate kills, which snowballs the game hard).
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I find it helps to have others to laugh with. Otherwise, it's just frustrating. At least with another person, you can joke around and treat it like some bizarro-world.
I also feel that Riot is shying away from exactly what their client's game-maker was built to offer: more options. They're removing options instead. The list under "Game Mode" and "Game Map" is more empty than it is full. You'd think it would be a bit less barren after 7 years.
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
Man, I missed Zyra. I should play her more often.
Soon I'll feel confident enough to take him into ranked.
I'm a bad
I think we won in this game because we had CC on supp, mid and top, so my ult was mainly used to peel Yi off Jinx. Still really need to work on my ult usage as aside from peeling with it or jumping through a teamfight with W on to spread some damage around I still don't use it effectively. I wonder how dumb it would be to build something like Rylais for the slows so my W and other stuff actually slows enemies?
Or am I dumb and I should just build Randuins and use the item active. Which I should, I just hate using item actives or I forget I have them.
Frozen Mallet? Iceborn Gauntlet maybe?