So ok I adore Hamilton (I've only listened to the soundtrack and seen a few clips but I have every intention of watching the Disney+ version asap)
But over the past few days on Facebook I've seen some extremely hot takes about how Hamilton isn't good actually and LMM is not great either and like
Are these just extremely cool contrarians or am I missing something?
Like, ok, it's not historically accurate. It agrandizes Hamilton who wasn't as anti slavery or as progressive by modern standards as the show suggests, and like, LMM has talked himself about how Hamilton was kind of a calculating, selfish asshole... But my response to that is that it's a musical. Of course it's exaggerated? Of course the hero is made to look more relatable and sympathetic? Because it's a musical?
I think a big part of this one is based on popular response, more than the actual issues with the show itself. Yeah, it's inaccurate, and overall I would consider that to be expected with a musical - it is, in some ways, an intentional overcorrection from the traditional portrayals of Alexander Hamilton in historical literature and/or popular culture.
But most people knew jack shit about Alexander Hamilton before the musical came out. And I think a lot of people took it in uncritically, without checking to see if the history was accurate. Or, even if they were careful to check their numbers and make sure some things were actually accurate, they still understood the characterizations of the people involved and their relationships with one another to be more or less true.
And like, I enjoy the musical, overall. And honestly it's not really a cross section of history I have much specialty in myself - I can't say that I was able to instantly spot all the inaccuracies when I first listened to it. But I know that space of historical discourse got deeply weird for a while there.
The Hamilton "backlash," has a lot of different forms, and it's probably reductive to blame it all on, you know, one thing.
There's always been criticism of it, in some sense; even early in this thread, when reception of the musical was pretty much 100% positive, there's discussion of how the thread underplays slavery and completely fails to mention that the founders of this country took part in the slaughter and conquest of the people who were already living here.
But I think the 2016 election took a lot of blinders off of people, and so did the run up to that election. I don't think I really need to dig into that too much, but it's fair to say that now, looking at a musical about a lot of people who owned slaves or played a part in not ending slavery, has become tougher for a lot of people to stomach. Hamilton also gets a lot of credit for creating this nation's financial system which is...incredibly bad for a lot of people. It also became this symbol of the Obama era, which people are increasingly less rosy-eyed towards.
It's also incredibly popular, and for a while was very difficult to escape in certain corners of the internet, which...is a key part against any backlash. There's not any backlash for like, the phantom of the opera sequel, because nobody really knows it exists. And the Hamilton fandom has been one of the most cursed sections of the internet. There's also the increasing visibility of Lin-Manuel Miranda, who has...well, his involvement with Puerto Rican politics has already been covered, but his online presence can also be extremely twee and obnoxious.
And you know, there's also people that don't like musicals in general, or who think Hamilton is a bad musical or is goofily written...there's a lot of writing out there about how Hamilton actually is bad, and, you know, some of it is in bad faith and some of it is in good faith.
The key thing to remember is that late 2015 and early 2016 had a completely different feel to it than our current political and world climate, and a lot of people have become more radicalized in the years since, so...you know, right now people are arguing about tearing down statues of many of the people who are lead characters in this musical. Watching Hamilton in 2020 is gonna have a different feeling to it than listening to the Hamilton soundtrack in 2015
I’ve seen some conflicting takes on LMM (and his father’s) responsibility for a pretty brutal program enacted to try and resolve Puerto Rico’s debt crisis
PROMESA sucks a whole lot, but whether it’s fair to blame the Miranda’s for it is less clear to me
Those takes are pretty clearly bullshit imo. They essentially claim that LMM supporting a program meant to provide much needed support to PR is at fault for the fact said program was misused by the people in charge of it to the detriment of PR.
It’s also not some thing I saw being seriously considered in PR when I went looking for the people’s opinion on him. Some do criticize him for being a “White savor” who needs to listen more to the people of PR for what he can do to help him and that seems like a more accurate criticism I think.
Like obviously it shouldn’t matter if she had ended up being correct but I want to point out that the person who started this was cacklingly excited to be able to justify her hatred of LMM. She had always hated him and had been looking for a reason. In that particular case I think people should be more careful about the news they immediately spread.
We went and saw Leslie Odom Jr on tour last year (I think, maybe two years ago) and he was great. His voice is unbelievable and we met him afterwards and he was super nice.
Seeing Burn was my highlight of the Hamilton movie for me. The line about him sleeping in his office is just brutally delivered and lived up to what I'd seen in my head over the years.
I knew Quiet Uptown would be rough but holy shit.
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
I’m watching now, the physicality is amazing.
Also there are moments when it sounds like Leslie Odom Jr. has a speech impediment? Am i imagining this?
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
I'm curious how seeing the original cast on video will compare to when I saw it in Salt Lake. Shame it's on Disney Plus though, I can't actually imagine any future scenario where the Walt Disney corporation ever gets off of my shit list.
Realizing lately that I don't really trust or respect basically any of the moderators here. So, good luck with life, friends! Hit me up on Twitter @DesertLeviathan
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
The Hamilton "backlash," has a lot of different forms, and it's probably reductive to blame it all on, you know, one thing.
There's always been criticism of it, in some sense; even early in this thread, when reception of the musical was pretty much 100% positive, there's discussion of how the thread underplays slavery and completely fails to mention that the founders of this country took part in the slaughter and conquest of the people who were already living here.
But I think the 2016 election took a lot of blinders off of people, and so did the run up to that election. I don't think I really need to dig into that too much, but it's fair to say that now, looking at a musical about a lot of people who owned slaves or played a part in not ending slavery, has become tougher for a lot of people to stomach. Hamilton also gets a lot of credit for creating this nation's financial system which is...incredibly bad for a lot of people. It also became this symbol of the Obama era, which people are increasingly less rosy-eyed towards.
It's also incredibly popular, and for a while was very difficult to escape in certain corners of the internet, which...is a key part against any backlash. There's not any backlash for like, the phantom of the opera sequel, because nobody really knows it exists. And the Hamilton fandom has been one of the most cursed sections of the internet. There's also the increasing visibility of Lin-Manuel Miranda, who has...well, his involvement with Puerto Rican politics has already been covered, but his online presence can also be extremely twee and obnoxious.
And you know, there's also people that don't like musicals in general, or who think Hamilton is a bad musical or is goofily written...there's a lot of writing out there about how Hamilton actually is bad, and, you know, some of it is in bad faith and some of it is in good faith.
The key thing to remember is that late 2015 and early 2016 had a completely different feel to it than our current political and world climate, and a lot of people have become more radicalized in the years since, so...you know, right now people are arguing about tearing down statues of many of the people who are lead characters in this musical. Watching Hamilton in 2020 is gonna have a different feeling to it than listening to the Hamilton soundtrack in 2015
Having watched Hamiton for the first time and really listened to it for the second time since 2015, I agree with and echo these sentiments
But as a work of fiction, in its construction and how it is performed, it's real impressive and I kind of can't help but enjoy it in spite of all its political and historical shortcomings
Also Daveed Diggs is a superstar so any time he's on stage I'm like "yes, this was worth it"
UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
I think Satisfied is #1 for me, especially with that choreography
What’d I Miss shot way up my rankings too, Diggs is just incredible as Jefferson in every single scene he plays him
The Room Where It Happens feels even more like Burr’s villain song/heel turn, especially with that shot of him at the end in what is basically a dark reflection of the Hamilton poster pose. Same wide stance, but with his head tilted down and his hand thrust down in front of him instead of up in the air, and heavy lighting from behind to keep his face shadowed.
I think Satisfied is #1 for me, especially with that choreography
What’d I Miss shot way up my rankings too, Diggs is just incredible as Jefferson in every single scene he plays him
The Room Where It Happens feels even more like Burr’s villain song/heel turn, especially with that shot of him at the end in what is basically a dark reflection of the Hamilton poster pose. Same wide stance, but with his head tilted down and his hand thrust down in front of him instead of up in the air, and heavy lighting from behind to keep his face shadowed.
It's the point where he finally realizes the answer to the question Hamilton's been putting to him through the play: he wants power, and he's willing to sell his soul to get it.
knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
I really like the instrumental version of Dear Theodosia from the credits
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
OK but
can we talk about just the sheer delightlful physicallity of Farmer Refuted
Because.
God I love that song so much.
Next question, who do you keep watching in the Company? Is there one particular performer that your eyes keep going back to again and again and again? For me I was always drawn to the tall lady with the super long, straight black hair and the undercut.
can we talk about just the sheer delightlful physicallity of Farmer Refuted
Because.
God I love that song so much.
Next question, who do you keep watching in the Company? Is there one particular performer that your eyes keep going back to again and again and again? For me I was always drawn to the tall lady with the super long, straight black hair and the undercut.
Diggs is so clearly a tv and film actor and keeps doing these subtle moves that I’m sure were totally lost on most people but I am eating them up.
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
ahhh the actress I kept following was Carleigh Bettiol
I was not prepared for the delight of seeing George in the background of a couple other scenes gleefully enjoying the carnage.
I also loved the "I feel blue...." /stares at the lights with annoyance /stomps /stage lights turn blue /gets the smuggest look on his face and continues singing
Satisfied was a song I really enjoyed on the album but seeing it actually performed was mesmerizing.
I always liked all of King George’s songs, but I never understood why people raves about him till I saw the performance. I got actively angry that they did not just have a Groff-Cam from his last song through Reynolds Pamphlet, because he was just so good.
I was not prepared for the end of Stay Alive. Holy shit what a devastating gut punch to culminate a series of them.
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#pipeCocky Stride, Musky odoursPope of Chili TownRegistered Userregular
Lost Salientblink twiceif you'd like me to mercy kill youRegistered Userregular
Disney+ not yet available in Singapore
I am
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"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
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WACriminalDying Is Easy, Young ManLiving Is HarderRegistered Userregular
My god that moment in Hurricane, the quiet for just a moment as the ensemble freezes with tables and chairs and everything as though it's being blown in a storm
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KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
There is absolutely nothing to stop people from streaming Disney+ on Kast. And you know at least a couple of Disney+ subscribers who stream on Kast regularly.
In all seriousness, I'd be more than happy to stream it via Kast for you. AJ should be able to too.
I continued to do a deep dive on LMM to try to get a better feel for him and his actions and presently I don’t know how to feel. I found these articles that I think are worth a read. They all come from link in the same tweet but the tweets felt like they were making accusations that didn’t feel entirely justified by the statements within.
I continued to do a deep dive on LMM to try to get a better feel for him and his actions and presently I don’t know how to feel. I found these articles that I think are worth a read. They all come from link in the same tweet but the tweets felt like they were making accusations that didn’t feel entirely justified by the statements within.
I don’t know anymore. Maybe I just am sick of people sucking. Goodnight everybody.
IMO, people are complicated and it's a fool's errand to find the perfect person who has committed no sin. "People are flawed, deal with it" is a good life philosophy.
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Raijin QuickfootI'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Watched the first half so far this morning
I’ve listened to the musical enough that I have the whole thing memorized but seeing it in action is SO MUCH BETTER.
Not every musical can be as ultra-realistic and historically accurate as Into The Woods.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Posts
I think a big part of this one is based on popular response, more than the actual issues with the show itself. Yeah, it's inaccurate, and overall I would consider that to be expected with a musical - it is, in some ways, an intentional overcorrection from the traditional portrayals of Alexander Hamilton in historical literature and/or popular culture.
But most people knew jack shit about Alexander Hamilton before the musical came out. And I think a lot of people took it in uncritically, without checking to see if the history was accurate. Or, even if they were careful to check their numbers and make sure some things were actually accurate, they still understood the characterizations of the people involved and their relationships with one another to be more or less true.
And like, I enjoy the musical, overall. And honestly it's not really a cross section of history I have much specialty in myself - I can't say that I was able to instantly spot all the inaccuracies when I first listened to it. But I know that space of historical discourse got deeply weird for a while there.
There's always been criticism of it, in some sense; even early in this thread, when reception of the musical was pretty much 100% positive, there's discussion of how the thread underplays slavery and completely fails to mention that the founders of this country took part in the slaughter and conquest of the people who were already living here.
But I think the 2016 election took a lot of blinders off of people, and so did the run up to that election. I don't think I really need to dig into that too much, but it's fair to say that now, looking at a musical about a lot of people who owned slaves or played a part in not ending slavery, has become tougher for a lot of people to stomach. Hamilton also gets a lot of credit for creating this nation's financial system which is...incredibly bad for a lot of people. It also became this symbol of the Obama era, which people are increasingly less rosy-eyed towards.
It's also incredibly popular, and for a while was very difficult to escape in certain corners of the internet, which...is a key part against any backlash. There's not any backlash for like, the phantom of the opera sequel, because nobody really knows it exists. And the Hamilton fandom has been one of the most cursed sections of the internet. There's also the increasing visibility of Lin-Manuel Miranda, who has...well, his involvement with Puerto Rican politics has already been covered, but his online presence can also be extremely twee and obnoxious.
And you know, there's also people that don't like musicals in general, or who think Hamilton is a bad musical or is goofily written...there's a lot of writing out there about how Hamilton actually is bad, and, you know, some of it is in bad faith and some of it is in good faith.
The key thing to remember is that late 2015 and early 2016 had a completely different feel to it than our current political and world climate, and a lot of people have become more radicalized in the years since, so...you know, right now people are arguing about tearing down statues of many of the people who are lead characters in this musical. Watching Hamilton in 2020 is gonna have a different feeling to it than listening to the Hamilton soundtrack in 2015
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Those takes are pretty clearly bullshit imo. They essentially claim that LMM supporting a program meant to provide much needed support to PR is at fault for the fact said program was misused by the people in charge of it to the detriment of PR.
It’s also not some thing I saw being seriously considered in PR when I went looking for the people’s opinion on him. Some do criticize him for being a “White savor” who needs to listen more to the people of PR for what he can do to help him and that seems like a more accurate criticism I think.
Man, watching Satisfied hurts. She brings it so hard.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Seeing Burn was my highlight of the Hamilton movie for me. The line about him sleeping in his office is just brutally delivered and lived up to what I'd seen in my head over the years.
I knew Quiet Uptown would be rough but holy shit.
Also there are moments when it sounds like Leslie Odom Jr. has a speech impediment? Am i imagining this?
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
Having watched Hamiton for the first time and really listened to it for the second time since 2015, I agree with and echo these sentiments
But as a work of fiction, in its construction and how it is performed, it's real impressive and I kind of can't help but enjoy it in spite of all its political and historical shortcomings
Also Daveed Diggs is a superstar so any time he's on stage I'm like "yes, this was worth it"
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
a really cool and emotive ASL "cover" of Burn that gets me all weepy if it catches me in the right mood
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
god I forgot just how many bangers are in Hamilton.
I just watched Wait For It, and the depth added by the close shots on Burr's facial expressions...just, good lord this is a solid production.
It's probably an affect of how he plays Burr - always shifting his speech patterns to match others, to reflect his "stand for nothing" position.
What’d I Miss shot way up my rankings too, Diggs is just incredible as Jefferson in every single scene he plays him
The Room Where It Happens feels even more like Burr’s villain song/heel turn, especially with that shot of him at the end in what is basically a dark reflection of the Hamilton poster pose. Same wide stance, but with his head tilted down and his hand thrust down in front of him instead of up in the air, and heavy lighting from behind to keep his face shadowed.
It's the point where he finally realizes the answer to the question Hamilton's been putting to him through the play: he wants power, and he's willing to sell his soul to get it.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
can we talk about just the sheer delightlful physicallity of Farmer Refuted
Because.
God I love that song so much.
Next question, who do you keep watching in the Company? Is there one particular performer that your eyes keep going back to again and again and again? For me I was always drawn to the tall lady with the super long, straight black hair and the undercut.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
Diggs is so clearly a tv and film actor and keeps doing these subtle moves that I’m sure were totally lost on most people but I am eating them up.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
I also loved the "I feel blue...." /stares at the lights with annoyance /stomps /stage lights turn blue /gets the smuggest look on his face and continues singing
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
I always liked all of King George’s songs, but I never understood why people raves about him till I saw the performance. I got actively angry that they did not just have a Groff-Cam from his last song through Reynolds Pamphlet, because he was just so good.
I was not prepared for the end of Stay Alive. Holy shit what a devastating gut punch to culminate a series of them.
3DS: 2981-5304-3227
Here is a fun backstage look at props and sets and stuff
Need some stuff designed or printed? I can help with that.
I am
going to go crazy
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
There is absolutely nothing to stop people from streaming Disney+ on Kast. And you know at least a couple of Disney+ subscribers who stream on Kast regularly.
https://www.80grados.net/miranda-an-american-tragedy/
https://thenewinquiry.com/disaster-act/
I don’t know anymore. Maybe I just am sick of people sucking. Goodnight everybody.
Huh. I have the exact same fake prop flintlock carbine.
IMO, people are complicated and it's a fool's errand to find the perfect person who has committed no sin. "People are flawed, deal with it" is a good life philosophy.
FFXIV: Tchel Fay
Nintendo ID: Tortalius
Steam: Tortalius
Stream: twitch.tv/tortalius
I’ve listened to the musical enough that I have the whole thing memorized but seeing it in action is SO MUCH BETTER.
Most accurate musical is Les Mis.
Funny way to spell Lion King. That's 100% historically accurate
That's funny because right after Hamilton I watched Les Mis again.