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The Democratic Presidential Primary Forum on MSNBC:

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    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    Nooooo, Bernie, don't go more negative against Hillary. It doesn't suit you *and* it makes your followers more likely to vote against Hillary because internet Bernie supporters are crazy.

    I ate an engineer
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    wazillawazilla Having a late dinner Registered User regular
    Bernie doubling down on the shouting line... hmmmmmmm

    Psn:wazukki
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    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    Bernie is really struggling with this. He dodged the Brady bill and is repeating the shouting line while directly referencing Hillary. Blegh.

    I ate an engineer
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    DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited November 2015
    wazilla wrote: »
    Bernie doubling down on the shouting line... hmmmmmmm

    Good. Fuck that craven misrepresentation. It was slimyand the people that defend that sort of attack are gross

    Deebaser on
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    wazillawazilla Having a late dinner Registered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    Bernie doubling down on the shouting line... hmmmmmmm

    Good. Fuck that craven misrepresentation. It was slimy

    ooooooook

    Psn:wazukki
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    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    edited November 2015
    Did... did Bernie just say "white working class Americans?"

    What the fuck? That... that had to be a gaffe, right?

    E: NOOOOOOOPE, doubled down. That's... not good.

    milski on
    I ate an engineer
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    wazillawazilla Having a late dinner Registered User regular
    He also did not mention that the "white working class Americans" that he is referencing also see minorities as the enemy, in addition to immigrants and gay people.

    Psn:wazukki
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    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    Yeah, it got better as it went on since it was clear he was saying "these are the people Democrats are losing," but it isn't the right way to phrase that.

    I ate an engineer
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    TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Man there is some contortion going on here about what Bernie said.

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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Trace wrote: »
    Man there is some contortion going on here about what Bernie said.

    In what sense?

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    I understand your position on the shouting comment, even if I don't agree.

    I have no idea how you don't think starting the answer to a question with "engage white working class Americans" and not referencing how those specific people are not voting Democrat is not a poor way to answer a question as a candidate with already limited minority appeal.

    I ate an engineer
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    TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Anyone who honestly thinks Bernie's line about stopping the shouting is anything but political gamesmanship from Clinton is out of their mind. It's just as ridiculous as claiming the man was racist.

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    TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    I understand your position on the shouting comment, even if I don't agree.

    I have no idea how you don't think starting the answer to a question with "engage white working class Americans" and not referencing how those specific people are not voting Democrat is not a poor way to answer a question as a candidate with already limited minority appeal.

    He started out poorly on that question I agree.

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    DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    Told wall street to cut it out in 2007, preventing a global financial cri...oh wait

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    wazillawazilla Having a late dinner Registered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    Told wall street to cut it out in 2007, preventing a global financial cri...oh wait

    No idea what would possess her to use that line again.

    Internal polling? It just sounds so... weak.

    Psn:wazukki
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    DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited November 2015
    shouldnt have people immediately going into industries that have business before the federal government, but scores 600,000 for three speaking fees from a single ibank the year after leaving office.

    Deebaser on
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    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    As much as I dislike Hillary's answer on the question, I have to give her props for actually answering the question rather than dodging. O'Malley and even Bernie did pivot a bit on some of the tough questions.

    I ate an engineer
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Hillary is a much better natural politician than the other two candidates. And her mastery of detail/memory is tremendous, even when I disagree with her.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    wazillawazilla Having a late dinner Registered User regular
    Woah

    Psn:wazukki
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    wazillawazilla Having a late dinner Registered User regular
    Good response to DOMA question.

    Psn:wazukki
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    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    I was hoping she would point out that it was, at the time, much better than what we had even if it seems awful now, but I agree she answered it pretty well.

    I ate an engineer
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    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    Young Hillary Clinton is really pretty.

    That's totally without substance but it's true.

    I ate an engineer
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    wazillawazilla Having a late dinner Registered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    I was hoping she would point out that it was, at the time, much better than what we had even if it seems awful now, but I agree she answered it pretty well.

    It was probably enough to tie it to what Rove was planning and what Republicans did; putting the issue on state ballots as constitutional amendments.

    Psn:wazukki
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Yep, these are pretty good candidates.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited November 2015
    wazilla wrote: »
    Good response to DOMA question.

    It doesn't make sense though. The Defense of Marriage Act was in 1996. The "Karl Rove tactics" didn't exist then. Here is her position on marriage equality in 2004.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1-r1YgK9I

    Deebaser on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    Good response to DOMA question.

    It doesn't make sense though. The Defense of Marriage Act was in 1996. The "Karl Rove tactics" didn't exist in then. Here is her position on marriage equality in 2004.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1-r1YgK9I

    There were pushes to pass the Federal Marriage Amendment in the mid-late 90s.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    I guess people deserve some brownie points for being for gay marriage before it was cool but mostly I only care how they feel about it now that it is cool.

    But obviously the "Gay marriage: no, because political capital shouldn't be wasted on gays" people went on a list. That list isn't going away, though it has been filed away for posterity rather than being a hot topic.

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    DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited November 2015
    Deebaser wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    Good response to DOMA question.

    It doesn't make sense though. The Defense of Marriage Act was in 1996. The "Karl Rove tactics" didn't exist in then. Here is her position on marriage equality in 2004.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1-r1YgK9I

    There were pushes to pass the Federal Marriage Amendment in the mid-late 90s.

    According to wikipedia:
    The original proposed Federal Marriage Amendment was written by the Alliance for Marriage with the assistance of former Solicitor General and failed Supreme Court nominee Judge Robert Bork, Professor Robert P. George of Princeton University, and Professor Gerard V. Bradley of Notre Dame Law School.[7] It was introduced in the 107th United States Congress in the House of Representatives on May 15, 2002, by Representative Ronnie Shows (D-Miss.) with 22 cosponsors,[8] and read:

    I cant find anything about a push for a Federal Marriage Amendment pre 1996.

    Deebaser on
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    wazillawazilla Having a late dinner Registered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    Good response to DOMA question.

    It doesn't make sense though. The Defense of Marriage Act was in 1996. The "Karl Rove tactics" didn't exist in then. Here is her position on marriage equality in 2004.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1-r1YgK9I

    Hawaii and Alaska used constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage in 1998. So I guess those tactics did exist then

    Psn:wazukki
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    wazillawazilla Having a late dinner Registered User regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    Good response to DOMA question.

    It doesn't make sense though. The Defense of Marriage Act was in 1996. The "Karl Rove tactics" didn't exist in then. Here is her position on marriage equality in 2004.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1-r1YgK9I

    There were pushes to pass the Federal Marriage Amendment in the mid-late 90s.

    According to wikipedia:
    The original proposed Federal Marriage Amendment was written by the Alliance for Marriage with the assistance of former Solicitor General and failed Supreme Court nominee Judge Robert Bork, Professor Robert P. George of Princeton University, and Professor Gerard V. Bradley of Notre Dame Law School.[7] It was introduced in the 107th United States Congress in the House of Representatives on May 15, 2002, by Representative Ronnie Shows (D-Miss.) with 22 cosponsors,[8] and read:

    I cant find anything about a push for a Federal Marriage Amendment pre 1996.

    Did you even listen to her response to the question tonight?

    Psn:wazukki
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    DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited November 2015
    wazilla wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    Good response to DOMA question.

    It doesn't make sense though. The Defense of Marriage Act was in 1996. The "Karl Rove tactics" didn't exist in then. Here is her position on marriage equality in 2004.

    Hawaii and Alaska used constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage in 1998. So I guess those tactics did exist then

    DOMA was signed into law two years before either of those amendments. Hell, DOMA kind of enabled those amendments.

    Deebaser on
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    wazillawazilla Having a late dinner Registered User regular
    edited November 2015
    Deebaser wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    Good response to DOMA question.

    It doesn't make sense though. The Defense of Marriage Act was in 1996. The "Karl Rove tactics" didn't exist in then. Here is her position on marriage equality in 2004.

    Hawaii and Alaska used constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage in 1998. So I guess those tactics did exist then

    DOMA was signed into law two years before either of those amendments. Hell DOMA may have enabled those amendments.

    Yes it absolutely did. But it also ensured an amendment to the US Constitution would not happen

    wazilla on
    Psn:wazukki
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    DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited November 2015
    wazilla wrote: »

    Did you even listen to her response to the question tonight?

    Is there anything you would like to highlight? My take away was that there were private conversations and she insisted that she was preventing something worse (despite being against gay marraige at the time per the video)

    Deebaser on
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    DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited November 2015
    wazilla wrote: »

    Yes it absolutely did. But it also ensured an amendment to the US Constitution would not happen

    There's pretty scarce evidence of that beyond her assurances. The clip above from 2004 lines up with principles of DOMA pretty neatly.

    Deebaser on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    This is what wikipedia says on the issue:
    Though his official political position was against same-sex marriage, Clinton criticized DOMA as "unnecessary and divisive",[27] while his press-secretary called it "gay baiting, plain and simple".[28][29] However, after Congress had passed the bill with enough votes to override a presidential veto,[29] Clinton signed DOMA. Many years later, he claimed that he did so reluctantly in view of the veto-proof majority, both to avoid associating himself politically with the then-unpopular cause of same-sex marriage, and to defuse momentum for a proposed Federal Amendment to the U.S. Constitution banning same-sex marriage.[29][30] Clinton, who was traveling when Congress acted, signed it into law promptly upon returning to Washington, D.C., on September 21, 1996; he refused to hold a signing ceremony for DOMA and did not allow photographs to be taken of him signing it into law.[31] The White House released a statement in which Clinton said "that the enactment of this legislation should not, despite the fierce and at times divisive rhetoric surrounding it, be understood to provide an excuse for discrimination, violence or intimidation against any person on the basis of sexual orientation".[31]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act#cite_note-pppqvagay-31

    You can go to the link for the sources and the general history but it's important to understand that this was already an issue at the time. In part because the amendment in Hawaii at the least was a response to a court case working it's way through the system that would have likely made Hawaii legalize gay marriage. Anti-gay people in the US were goddamn terrified of this kind of thing becoming a trend. Hence the build up to passing the ban in Hawaii and the various other efforts at work, including DOMA. Basically all the people in federal politics talking about it at the time say DOMA was probably the least bad idea floating around Congress for how to deal with it and it's support in Congress was widespread enough many were scared what they could accomplish if they set their sights higher.

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited November 2015
    Deebaser wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »

    Yes it absolutely did. But it also ensured an amendment to the US Constitution would not happen

    There's pretty scarce evidence of that beyond her assurances. The clip above from 2004 lines up with principles of DOMA pretty neatly.

    And the assurances of multiple other people on the issue? This is basically the story everyone tells about the issue and as you can see above with Bill Clinton's reaction, it ain't like they were jumping at the bit to pass the thing so the story is consistent with their handling of it. That's basically what I've always read on the issue.

    shryke on
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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited November 2015
    Just finished watching, haven't watched/read any reaction.

    Martin O'Malley : Excellent. Charming and warm, seemed substantial and smart. A legitimate/worthy candidate even at like 5%.

    Bernie Sanders: Did better in this format than I expected but no big moves. The "don't yell" argument about guns was particularly grating for me because he yelled in every other answer. Answers about ISIS/foreign policy and and Southern issues (willfully ignoring black issues and claiming Vermont's issues and the South's issues were the same right after Maddow pointed out Vermont was totally white) were weak IMO

    Hillary Clinton : Commanding and controlling both on the issues and presence. Serious, gravitas, likable (and I'm not someone who likes her personality that much) and smart. Didn't punch down

    PantsB on
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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    I always thought o'malley was a pretty good potential candidate, but baltimore catching on fire probably hurt him a lot. this is a tough primary to vote in because all 3 of them are good, what are the odds.

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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    Yep, these are pretty good candidates.

    All three comported themselves civilly, charmingly and like adults.

    11793-1.png
    day9gosu.png
    QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
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    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    I still think my favorite answer was OMalley's answer to "You're at 2%. How can you win?" I mean he's obviously practiced it, but the delivery and argument was pretty great (and yes, you could probably rebut with "presidential elections are probably slower moving" but that'd be too brutal).

    I ate an engineer
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